TF cousins of 1/55

[Solscud007]

Thanks to kidkorrupt for bringing up an old debate with me. Astromagnum is the mold for G1 Shockwave. Astromagnum was sold by Toyco in japan.

I am curious to know about Toyco. I wonder who they got to do the tooling of Astomagnum? I know that Studio Nue was tapped for some of the diaclone toys and microchange toys like perceptor. I met the toy designer of perceptor at Botcon this year. For those of you who dont know, one of the employees at Studio Nue, was Shoji Kawamori. He designed the original Battle Convoy toy aka Optimus Prime.

Jason Jupiter pointed out uncanny similarities in Astromagnum's tooling to Takatoku's 1/55 Macross valkyries.

Carefully look at Shockwave's leg. The Silver/grey panel and look at the panel lines.

Then look at this Bandai 1/55 elintseeker, Look at the leg panel

Now look at Shockwave's upper arm/bicep area.

And look at the elintseeker's arm.

Not only are they similar, the ratcheting design in the arm is similar to the 1/55 toy technology.

I dont think it just a coincidence. unless one company blatantly ripped off designs from the other.

I cant remember who actually designed the 1/55 toy? what is specifically Kawamori? I know he came up with the transformation concept of the toy. but did he do the actual tooling? Was it someone in Studio Nue? was it an employee of takatoku? Did they contract someone else? Could that person have worked on Astromagnum because the evidence seems to support that. Or maybe they were huge macross fans haha.

[eriku]

There's also the fact that Shockwave's head is vaguely valk-ish.

[fifbeat]

The head looks similar to the valk head as well.

I used to have a knock off version of Shockwave (it was all silver) and it was pretty solid in every aspect. didn't it have metal feet too?

[misterryno]

There's also the fact that Shockwave's head is vaguely valk-ish.

True that....it's definitely VF-1J-ish.

[Mechinyun]

Wow, great catch.. I never noticed that... shockwave has always been one of my favorites.. maybe subliminally this is part of why.

Edited August 22, 2008 by Mechinyun

[RichterX]

Wasn't the original toy that became Shockwave from 1980 or 1981?

[Mechinyun]

Wasn't the original toy that became Shockwave from 1980 or 1981?

I dont know the exact dates but I do know shockwave was a stand alone robot produced well before transformers came out and wasn't part of the series takara was calling the robots before transformers. He was made by a Korean company and had a different name, apparently we wont ever see a re-issue because of that.

[UN Spacy]

Do you guys know what Kawamori worked on back when he was doing the Diaclone/TF stuff?

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

Very interesting find solscud, I love threads like these, its not often that we get a glimpse into the history of the chunkies.

If Kawamori designed the transformation for the 1/55, then he is a freaking genius, it was one of my favorite toys as a child via Jetfire, and one of my favorite toys now. I wonder if he designed the original Diaclone Acrobat F-15, which later became Starscream. If thats the case, its no surprise that he was called in by Takara to design both MP Starscream and THS-01 Convoy.

Coincidentally enough, the Energon Shockwave from 2004 had a head that was very reminiscent of the VF-1J Takatoku sculpt.

[physioguy]

Very interesting find solscud, I love threads like these, its not often that we get a glimpse into the history of the chunkies.

If Kawamori designed the transformation for the 1/55, then he is a freaking genius, it was one of my favorite toys as a child via Jetfire, and one of my favorite toys now. I wonder if he designed the original Diaclone Acrobat F-15, which later became Starscream. If thats the case, its no surprise that he was called in by Takara to design both MP Starscream and THS-01 Convoy.

Coincidentally enough, the Energon Shockwave from 2004 had a head that was very reminiscent of the VF-1J Takatoku sculpt.

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

Do you guys know what Kawamori worked on back when he was doing the Diaclone/TF stuff?

Solscud mentioned Battle Convoy, but I think he also did Powered Convoy, which became Ultra Magnus in the Transformers line. He may have also done the F-15, which became Starscream.

[Renato]

He did say a lot of people worked on the same designs, so it wasn't just him who did Convoy. Although he did "fix" whatever was wrong with the original design if I remember correctly. I think the original designer had run away somewhere or something..?

Anyway, it is intriguing that this Shockwave toy has elements not just from the VF-1, but also the way the arms come together is reminiscent of the Breast

Fighter, which LATER became the Valkyrie. Check it out (pics from the Chronicle, better pics are in Design Works):

BTW he said his favourite design he worked on for Diaclone was "Robot Base".

Edited August 23, 2008 by Renato

[big F]

Interesting thread. I have a transformers book which has a whole section on Diaclone and a page on Kawamori sanalthough I have translated only tiny bits of this page it does have a picture of a Taka Roy with FPs and Shockwave and Omega Supreme. so maybe he did have something to do wiht it.

[TheLoneWolf]

I cant remember who actually designed the 1/55 toy? what is specifically Kawamori? I know he came up with the transformation concept of the toy. but did he do the actual tooling? Was it someone in Studio Nue? was it an employee of takatoku? Did they contract someone else? Could that person have worked on Astromagnum because the evidence seems to support that. Or maybe they were huge macross fans haha.

I don't believe Kawamori worked on the 1/55. Noburo Ishiguro was interviewed in an old issue of Animerica where he mentioned the old 1/55 toy. During Macross' production, he and Kawamori were worried that no toy company would be able to build a perfect transformation Valkyrie toy. But when Takatoku demonstrated their 1/55 prototype, he says that both he and Kawamori were shocked "like the apes who saw the Monolith."

[Solscud007]

I don't believe Kawamori worked on the 1/55. Noburo Ishiguro was interviewed in an old issue of Animerica where he mentioned the old 1/55 toy. During Macross' production, he and Kawamori were worried that no toy company would be able to build a perfect transformation Valkyrie toy. But when Takatoku demonstrated their 1/55 prototype, he says that both he and Kawamori were shocked "like the apes who saw the Monolith."

hmm But given kawamori's pedigree of mech design and specifically transformation. I understand that the original VF-1 transformation was made of legos or paper.

[Renato]

hmm But given kawamori's pedigree of mech design and specifically transformation. I understand that the original VF-1 transformation was made of legos or paper.

If I remember correctly from the interview at the back of Macross Design Works, he said he originally had it made out of wood (maybe balsa or something) by a shop he knew in the neighbourhood, then he brought that to Takatoku. It's been years since I read that, though (I read it only when the book first came out).

[TheLoneWolf]

hmm But given kawamori's pedigree of mech design and specifically transformation. I understand that the original VF-1 transformation was made of legos or paper.

In the Ishiguro interview, he said that Kawamori had already demonstrated the VF's transformation process out of a paper valk, but that "considering the inflexibility of plastic, a faithful transformation would have been impossible." Or, by Renato's account of Design Works, Kawamori made it out of some sort wood substance and brought it to Takatoku.

edit: Ishiguro also mentions that Takatoku took out patents on portions of the VF's transformation process. Which parts though, he didn't specify. If Kawamori did design the 1/55, I would hope that Takatoku didn't patent portions of his work. My guess has always been that Takatoku did the lion's share of the work and Kawamori polished their prototype for accuracy. Renato, if you have any free time, would you mind going through Design Works again? Now I'm also curious as to how much (if any) work Kawamori did for the 1/55.

Edited August 28, 2008 by TheLoneWolf

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

But when Takatoku demonstrated their 1/55 prototype, he says that both he and Kawamori were shocked "like the apes who saw the Monolith.

I'm intrigued by this, I've always wanted to know where the designers of the 1/55 from Takatoku ended up as their careers progressed. It would be interesting if some of them ended up working for Yamato and had a hand in developing the numerous VF-1 toys that Yamato has put out since 2001. If they didn't, I wonder what they think of the new VF-1 toys?

The Takatoku is a classic, legendary some might say, with regard to transforming mecha toys. Not until Yamato or any other company makes a modern VF-1 toy as accurate as Yamato's, and as durable than the Bandais/Takas(or even more durable), will I say the best VF-1 toy has been made. Some say its impossible, given the compromises, but toy technology and practices have increased and gotten so much better from 10 years ago, even 5 years ago. Its improving exponentially quick, so I think its possible.

At the end of the day, I also wonder what Kawamori thinks of the various VF-1 toys.

Also, I guess the Dorvack toys that made it into Transformers are 1/55 cousins too, I think they are in that scale as well.

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

Ishiguro also mentions that Takatoku took out patents on parts of the VF's transformation process. Which parts though, he didn't specify.

Whoa...thats interesting...that might explain why Yamato's approach to the VF-1 toys was very different and dissimilar to what Takatoku did.

[Renato]

Renato, if you have any free time, would you mind going through Design Works again?

I don't have the book on me anymore, but I'm certain I have it in scanned data form somewhere, so I'll look for it when I get around to it. I'm a bit busy for the next couple of weeks or so, though, so it may take a while.

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

I'm a bit busy for the next couple of weeks or so, though, so it may take a while.

Take your time man, the juicy morsels of info will be worth the wait.

[Roger]

I'm intrigued by this, I've always wanted to know where the designers of the 1/55 from Takatoku ended up as their careers progressed.

I believe most of them moved over to Bandai in the 80s after Takatoku folded. A friend of mine worked at Bandai around 2001 when the last round of Valkyrie reissues was released, and he said that most of those guys were retiring just as their old "baby" was being reincarnated.

Regarding the similarities between the vintage Valkyrie toys and these other ones that have been cited, it's really not much of a surprise. Many of these toys were designed by a relatively small group of people, using very similar equipment in a small group of factories during a very short product development cycle. A reliable method that was developed to make a good elbow joint, or fold one piece inside another, or whatever, was probably reused for many different products.

At the end of the day, a toy isn't that different from many other manufactured items. I'm sure that if you did an analysis of shaving cream cans across multiple brands you'd see that there are many similarities there, too.

A question regarding patents: didn't Hasbro patent the VF-1 design in the US?

[TheLoneWolf]

I don't have the book on me anymore, but I'm certain I have it in scanned data form somewhere, so I'll look for it when I get around to it. I'm a bit busy for the next couple of weeks or so, though, so it may take a while.

I've got the book and can scan that article for you. Chronicles #1 also has some nice coverage of the 1/55, if you want I can scan that also. Take all the time that you need, I don't think anyone here can argue with a free translation.

A question regarding patents: didn't Hasbro patent the VF-1 design in the US?

I believe you're right. A long time ago someone posted a link to the 1/55 patent from the USPTO archives, and IIRC, Hasbro had filed it.

[AcroRay]

I believe you're right. A long time ago someone posted a link to the 1/55 patent from the USPTO archives, and IIRC, Hasbro had filed it.

I don't know what link was provided, but the USPTO's records of Matsushiro's filing on the Valk toy don't involve hasbro. Click on "Images" button in the pages from the USPTO links below for the images of the actual filing paperwork, with extensive drawings.)

1/55 Valk: (Descriptive patent # D287,037 )

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?...ushiro+AND+toy)

also, their design for the 1/55 Dorvack Calibur [Roadbuster] (Descriptive patent # D285,589 )

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?...ushiro+AND+toy)

Couple of screen captures of the first pages, to save some time....

As I understand it, Kawamori needed to come up with a basic transformation for the Valk - a physical realization of it - to show toy companies to SELL them on the main robot concept for the show, and to secure their underwriting. He wondered what to do with the arms, and hit upon the idea of folding them under & between the legs to make for the main body of the plane. He then made a paper model in time for the meeting with Takatoku. Matushiro was Takatoku's contractor for the actual development of the toy (which they did for a number of companies at the time). Matsushiro then patented the design in the US, at least.

I think the "wooden model" story quoted previously comes from Aramaki's experiences with the Mospeada Ride Armor toy, noted in several articles but also found in the booklet that comes with ADV's Mospeada DVD set. (Although similar wooden model prototype stories are probably shared by a lot of transforming toy products of the time!) Aramaki was unhappy with Gakken's shop's prototype, so he had a local designer make one from wood, which the toymaker then used as the pattern to have the toy designed.

Edited August 29, 2008 by AcroRay

[TheLoneWolf]

I don't know what link was provided, but the USPTO's records of Matsushiro's filing on the Valk toy don't involve hasbro. Click on "Images" button in the pages from the USPTO links below for the images of the actual filing paperwork, with extensive drawings.)

That's the link right there, unfortunately I don't have eidetic memory. Thanks for posting it.

[AcroRay]

I only have a toy-etic memory!

[Roger]

Interesting that Matsushiro filed that patent. I wonder if it was before or after Harmony Gold's release of Macross on VHS.

[AcroRay]

Humn - April of 1984 is the filing date. I don't quite recall when HG started advertising that first Macross dub VHS volume, although its copyright is 1984. (I don't have that comic around anymore, or any of the magazines with the ad for it, I don't think.)

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

I believe most of them moved over to Bandai in the 80s after Takatoku folded. A friend of mine worked at Bandai around 2001 when the last round of Valkyrie reissues was released, and he said that most of those guys were retiring just as their old "baby" was being reincarnated.

Interesting, Thanks Roger.

[TheLoneWolf]

Humn - April of 1984 is the filing date. I don't quite recall when HG started advertising that first Macross dub VHS volume, although its copyright is 1984. (I don't have that comic around anymore, or any of the magazines with the ad for it, I don't think.)

According to this court document, Harmony Gold got their license from Tastunoko on January 15th, 1984. The 1/55's patent was filed after Harmony Gold acquired Macross.

[Roger]

Cool. Now that we know the answer to that, my next questions are: 1) Did Matsushiro know about HG's acquisition of Macross, and 2) Why did they file the patent for the Valkyrie and the Calibur?

(I realize that there probably aren't any answers to these questions, but I wish there was someone I could ask.)

[orguss01]

From those USPo doc looks like Gewalk isn't a final stage...transitory mode..so maybe the 1/55 like in the movie "found" the gerwlk mode going from plane to bat...or maybe they just forgot to put that in the text for the patent...

[Hiriyu]

Cool. Now that we know the answer to that, my next questions are: 1) Did Matsushiro know about HG's acquisition of Macross, and 2) Why did they file the patent for the Valkyrie and the Calibur?

(I realize that there probably aren't any answers to these questions, but I wish there was someone I could ask.)

This might answer your second question (I've no clue about the first):

IIRC, the last time that these were posted here, there was some discussion that perhaps the Matsushiro patents relate only the "ornamental design" (or paint scheme) of the toy, as stated on the patent/application posted above. It might then make sense that they also applied for the same patent for the Dorvack version of the Calibur. Though there should logically be a patent sheet somewhere for the Ovelon Gazette too...

[AcroRay]

"Ornamental Design" is a legal term meaning a unique take on a common idea. IE: this is a toy robot, yes, but OUR toy robot looks uniquely like THIS, and has these distinct features ornamenting the otherwise non-unique concept. Otherwise, you'd simply be trying to patent a 'robot' (as a simplistic example), which probably would be rejected.

Lucasfilm patented all of their Star Wars character designs as interpreted by Kenner into action figures, simply calling them 'action doll' or somesuch, but making the unique claim that the 'action doll' was ornamented - given distinctive design elements - into a unique ornamental design.

Matsushiro may simply have patented the products they thought were most likely to be purchased, or they may have been in talks with Hasbro prior to that date. Patents are not necessarily filed at the point in time when their business interests start. There's a period of research and writing that goes into the filing.

Edited September 3, 2008 by AcroRay

[Hiriyu]

Ahh, interesting, thanks Ray!