Why are destroids so darn weak?

[RF-26AAC]

I'm re-watching SDFM and also following Macross Frontier, and it occurred to me, how is it that Destroids are even being produced, when, short of the Monster/Koenig Monster, they are completely useless? I mean, weak, early form Vajra were killing destroids left and right basically with a gatling gun, no missiles or anything crazy. And apparently destroids can't fight regulds, either.

Why?!

The destroids logically would have heavier armor than the Valkyrie and therefore should be at least somewhat more destructive when stationary, or be able to sustain 2-3 direct hits instead of being hit and exploding...

While I realize that it is the magic of anime, why are they still making Excalibur-type/Tomahawk type machines if they suck so bad? They must consume a lot of metal to make a combat-only machine, so there must be a reason for continuing to make them...

I'm sorry if this is a repost but can somebody (Mr March, perhaps?) explain why these things suck so hard?

[manwiththemachinegun]

I'm re-watching SDFM and also following Macross Frontier, and it occurred to me, how is it that Destroids are even being produced, when, short of the Monster/Koenig Monster, they are completely useless? I mean, weak, early form Vajra were killing destroids left and right basically with a gatling gun, no missiles or anything crazy. And apparently destroids can't fight regulds, either.

Why?!

The destroids logically would have heavier armor than the Valkyrie and therefore should be at least somewhat more destructive when stationary, or be able to sustain 2-3 direct hits instead of being hit and exploding...

While I realize that it is the magic of anime, why are they still making Excalibur-type/Tomahawk type machines if they suck so bad? They must consume a lot of metal to make a combat-only machine, so there must be a reason for continuing to make them...

I'm sorry if this is a repost but can somebody (Mr March, perhaps?) explain why these things suck so hard?

Not quite sure what you mean. In the original series the Destroids did very well. They had nearly a 1:1 kill ratio. Plus they were the MAIN offensive element of the Daedalus attack, which I remind you, was capable of destroying Zentradi warships.

In Frontier, they're used mostly for point defense and internal security. It should be obvious that ground pounders are going to have little use in SPACE.

And actually, you CAN see the new model destroids shooting down Vajra in episode 7. A bunch of the yellow bugs fly right into their flack fields and disappear.

[Master Dex]

In that light you could say why do they bother making any valkyries in colors other than the hero ones we've seen throughout the run, such as Focker Yellow, Hikaru Red, so on and so forth. Although color is probably not the reason as Gamlin was flying Milia's VF-1J in Macross 7 ans he still got shot down where she wouldn't. So why so they give valks to all these people who aren't main characters?

It what we've been calling the cannon fodder background characters, they are everyone and pilot Destroids and well as Valkyries.

However I agree with you Destroid would seem to be more heavily armored since they can't transform or fly (for the most part), so it is a wonder that CF Destroids go down as easily as CF valks.

[manwiththemachinegun]

Go to Veoh and look up Macross episode 16 (Link is too long)

Go to 16:30

You can see a Spartan shoot down two battlepods before getting fragged and an Excalibur take out two more while surviving.

Its just that these pilots aren't elites and for the most part face enemies with numbers far greater than their own.

Edited August 21, 2008 by manwiththemachinegun

[RF-26AAC]

Go to Veoh and look up Macross episode 16 (Link is too long)

Go to 16:30

You can see a Spartan shoot down two battlepods before getting fragged and an Excalibur take out two more while surviving.

Its just that these pilots aren't elites and for the most part face enemies with numbers far greater than their own.

Hm, maybe I just see em in a bad light, I think they're hella cool, but I just wish they were stronger. I'm only up to episode 9 of SDFM right now. I also tend to watch these at low resolution so it isn't really obvious to me most of the time.

I remember that Excalibur in Zero giving that SV-51 a what for... the Excalibur hit the SV-51 once or twice, got thrown off the deck of the ship, saved itself via thrusters and started shooting at the SV-51 again, and then the other SV-51 came and the destroid was promptly murdered.

I dunno, I just feel like shouldn't they be *slightly* more resistant to damage? It's like they're made of glass-- when Valks get killed (non hero colors) they get hit repeatedly before they blow up... the destroids get hit once and then POP.

While the destroids were very effective during the deadalus (spelling?) attack, that's like, the ONE instance a regular destroid (not the hero MONSTERS) seemed to be effective.

Edited August 21, 2008 by RF-26AAC

[Morpheus]

They are Destroid, its their fate. If they make destroid uber powered, we got BattleTech instead

Edited August 21, 2008 by Morpheus

[akt_m]

Just put the main character in a destroid and he will even defeat god, unless the plot tells him to die.

If you re-watch SDFM there is an ep. that Hikaru pilots a destroid and did well.

[Wes]

Because nobody loves them.

[Shaka_Z]

Just put the main character in a destroid and he will even defeat god, unless the plot tells him to die.

If you re-watch SDFM there is an ep. that Hikaru pilots a destroid and did well.

interesting... I dont remember that episode... I now must rewatch SDFM - been meaning to for a long time anyway.

[hobbes221]

I agree with the train of thought that the destroids seem weaker than one would think. But it's in my mind that the ones from Frontier are not akin to tanks and are more along the lines of highly mobile anti-air units. If they do use a energy converting armor system like the Valkyries it could be that due to the different type of power plants used that the destroids may not have as much excess power to give to the ECA. The VFs engines are made to put out large amounts of thrust and are close to the size of today's turbofan engines. I don't know about anyone else but I'm not seeing room for anything like that on the destroids.

[taksraven]

Because nobody loves them.

I love them.

Actually, a fantastic idea for a small - scale Macross ova would be to feature Destroid pilots in the main roles, focussing on their role in combat. For a miniseries it would be great. Of course a lot of Macross purists would start screaming that any Macross series should only focus on Valk pilots. Valks and their pilots could still be featured, and the destroid pilots could bitch about them and how they get all the attention.

C'mon, you must admit, this would be a great idea for a mini-series or side story.

Taksraven

[RF-26AAC]

I love them.

Actually, a fantastic idea for a small - scale Macross ova would be to feature Destroid pilots in the main roles, focussing on their role in combat. For a miniseries it would be great. Of course a lot of Macross purists would start screaming that any Macross series should only focus on Valk pilots. Valks and their pilots could still be featured, and the destroid pilots could bitch about them and how they get all the attention.

C'mon, you must admit, this would be a great idea for a mini-series or side story.

Taksraven

It'd be grounds for a good military-life type fanfic, at least.

I rather like that idea but we'd have a lot of characters die. Probably not unlike the culture soldiers have in Afghanistan...

[Wes]

I love them.

Actually, a fantastic idea for a small - scale Macross ova would be to feature Destroid pilots in the main roles, focussing on their role in combat. For a miniseries it would be great. Of course a lot of Macross purists would start screaming that any Macross series should only focus on Valk pilots. Valks and their pilots could still be featured, and the destroid pilots could bitch about them and how they get all the attention.

C'mon, you must admit, this would be a great idea for a mini-series or side story.

Taksraven

No alot of people have mused that idea here and it would be cool. Get too much Gundam-ripoff calls I'm worried, or maybe Armored Core(for obvious reasons). But I do like Armored Core, need to pic up the 4th.

[Bri]

I love them.

Actually, a fantastic idea for a small - scale Macross ova would be to feature Destroid pilots in the main roles, focussing on their role in combat. For a miniseries it would be great. Of course a lot of Macross purists would start screaming that any Macross series should only focus on Valk pilots. Valks and their pilots could still be featured, and the destroid pilots could bitch about them and how they get all the attention.

C'mon, you must admit, this would be a great idea for a mini-series or side story.

Taksraven

and we'd call it Macross: 8th DS Team?

[sucker4meltrans]

episode 20 only renforces my previous thread that there needs to be zentradi swat teams to secure the inside of colonies. destroides are so much cannon fodder.

[polidread]

back in Macross Zero, a lone Cheyenne Destroid was doing well defending the AsukaII from DD Ivanov, until he got doubleteamed by Nora and DD.

they arent weak, most of them do their job well.

the plot just needs them to explode in front of the camera most of the time - giving you the illusion that it's all they can do.

[sucker4meltrans]

we need macro zentran SWAT teams.

[taksraven]

and we'd call it Macross: 8th DS Team?

ha ha.

Yeah, I know that other shows have had similar things but it would still be unique and interesting in the Macross universe. ESPECIALLY if it was set during Space War I. (A great climax for the show would either be the battle on Mars or Kamjins first assault after SDF1 had arrived back on earth.)

Taksraven

[Sumdumgai]

I think a Macro Zentran SWAT team would get ripped apart faster than a Destroid, as a Macro Zentran wouldn't have even remotely as much armor as a Destroid. Now if that Macro Zentran SWAT team has Q-reas or some other form of powered armor...

Destroids do their jobs pretty well. They're mobile turrets. And we've seen plenty of cannon fodder valkyries be blown away through all the series. Hell the VF-11C didn't even have a 1:1 kill-deat-ratio in Macross 7.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

I'm re-watching SDFM and also following Macross Frontier, and it occurred to me, how is it that Destroids are even being produced, when, short of the Monster/Koenig Monster, they are completely useless? I mean, weak, early form Vajra were killing destroids left and right basically with a gatling gun, no missiles or anything crazy. And apparently destroids can't fight regulds, either.

Why?!

The destroids logically would have heavier armor than the Valkyrie and therefore should be at least somewhat more destructive when stationary, or be able to sustain 2-3 direct hits instead of being hit and exploding...

While I realize that it is the magic of anime, why are they still making Excalibur-type/Tomahawk type machines if they suck so bad? They must consume a lot of metal to make a combat-only machine, so there must be a reason for continuing to make them...

I'm sorry if this is a repost but can somebody (Mr March, perhaps?) explain why these things suck so hard?

In my vision the destroids can do more damage than a valk for having dual guns blazing away and possibly shoot further (maybe) but lose at close range because they are not as manueverable. There comes a time that once the enemy closes in on you at close range, the pilot isn't equiped to deal with stuff near to you so its a bit like how an antitank weapon can deal with an expensive tank if the person is able to get in position without the pilot seeing them.

Star wars had those walker defeated by ewoks by setting traps and knocking them over by taking advantage of their top-heavy design, so the destroid are defeated by getting a close range where the required turning rate to track you is more extreme causing the destroid pilot to lag behind the target it is aiming at. If the GBP is slower than a naked valk, I would assume that a destroid is also slower than a naked valk given similar bulk. Being lighter and faster and constantly moving around is probably more effective than letting your armor take hits and moving slowly; lagging behind the target you are tracking.

The destroid are probably better to fight one to one in a confined space say like a corridoor or in a place where movement would be limited if they want to defeat a Qrau or something where even if you don't like the idea of standing still in one spot for too long, you have no choice since there is little space. Using cover and having good armor might be better in that situation than having speed and wearing down enemy with lighter weapons.

Here's the reason why we think they are so useless: most of the money shots are when you can see two things at close range.

The destroid probably get lots of kill for targets far off into the distance but you just don't see those kills onscreen because it will just appear as a random explosion in the episode you are watching. But when a Qrau or a main villian gets close to the base or whatever you always see destroids getting blown to smithereens so you remember those deaths more clearly.

Just don't ignore all the little explosions you see in the distance when you see a big battle. Some of those kills are probably from monsters shooting and destroids defending against incoming missiles or alien fighters and thinning the herd before they eventually get killed. As an example when the octos first appears in macross zero it gets the surprise advantage because it was sneaking the water so a destroid might be caught off guard. But then you see a human use the rocket launcher on it. While the octos is busy killing a big easy target like say a destroid which is just standing there, the human is attacking the octos with the anti-mecha weapon. But just "having the destroid there" bought time for the human to be alert to the enemy and react. If it wasn't there the octos could have aimed for something else in its surprise attacks.

The destroids have some value in defensive situations on the ground that might not be appropriate for valks which like to move about freely in open space. So the destroid can emerge from the trees and attack ground targets while valks attack flying ones. The valks ability to fly is wasted on ground targets where the destroids lack of flight isn't. Maybe destroids in exchange for not flying around can have more ammo to carry? Can stay in one spot for longer? Dont draw as much attention to themselves by staying low to the ground? Can finish off heavy armored mecha quicker due to twice the guns?

Edited August 22, 2008 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[d3v]

It's not that they're weak. It's just that their pilots have an unhealthy preference for pineapple salad and steak (all while calling valk pilots a bunch of superstitious idiots).

Also, a few of them are blonde womanizers.

Edited August 22, 2008 by d3v

[Birdman]

In addition to what LowViz wrote, let's not forget that every army runs on a budget. It's probable that for the cost of one VF, you can build several destroids. Money aside, the VFs are probably also harder to build & maintain and require more training to operate. This would make the destroids a very cost-effective way to build up troop numbers even if they're more vulnerable to the enemy. In WW2 the Allies built something like 10 Shermans for every Tiger produced by Germany. The Sherman's didn't have the best reputation, their crews referred to them as the "Ronson" (after the lighter brand) because they would always light (as in catch fire/explode) the first time. German tank crews simply called them "Tommy Cookers". We know who won the war though, don't we? I guess your question is kind of like asking why anybody would buy a Chevy when you could get a Rolls...

[DeeBot]

I think the economic argument is basically right. I mean, you could ask the same question about why tanks in Frontier are so weak compared to destroids. Since tanks are low to the ground and run on tracks, surely they should have even more effective armor than a bipedal war machine? But it doesn't quite work that way.

[JB0]

It's also worth noting that a LOT of the destroid fatalities in the original series were in one scene, recycled many many times(It is, coincidentally, the same quick shot that the Orguss Valkyrie is in).

So... don't get assigned to a Defender on bridge defense, and you'll be fine.

But yeah, destroids are doing longer range kills as well as being more specialized, making them look less effective than they undoubtedly are..

The Spartan and Tomahawk are the only ones I'd consider capable of in-close fighting, and they didn't see a lot of action for most of the show. If a Defender or Phalanx position is over-run, they're kinda screwed(though really, shouldn't the Defenders and Phalanxes have Tomahawk and Spartan escorts to handle closer stuff?).

And, of course, the heroes are flying Valks, so the camera isn't focused on the destroid action.

Hikaru's team is sent to reinforce a destroid team at one point(Kamjin bashes Hikkie's head in before being recalled by Britai in a flashy manner), but the implication is that the other destroid teams are holding their own, and it's only the one area that needs assistance.

And as far as reinforcements go... calling a nearby VF team makes more sense, because they ARE faster and more easily repositioned. They may not have as much armor or firepower(depending on VF "pack" loadouts), but that's a secondary concern over getting some fresh guns there before the position is overrun.

Certainly, the destroid must've proved it's worth since they're making new models in Frontier, which warms my heart almost as much as Isamu one-shotting the retired Monster broke it(I still cry myself to sleep thinking about that scene occasionally).

And, of course, there's the variable Monster, but... it's the Monster. Had they retired it, they wouldn't have any heavy artillery mechs.

A VF with GBP equipment can fill in for most other destroids, making a reasonably general-purpose mech(and as of the VF-25, you don't even lose the versatility of the Valk in the process), but the Monster's weapon class pretty much requires a mech built around the recoil concerns and possible nuclear splashback.

Certainly you could substitute missiles for the cannons, but you wouldn't get the projectile launch speed, and the warheads would be easier to track.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

(I still cry myself to sleep thinking about that scene occasionally).

I thought it wasn't real though? Would they really waste all that money by letting a monster be destroyed like that? It was probably a model or something.

Edited August 22, 2008 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Roy Focker]

Like all Macross Mecha it depends on who's pilot it. Look at the VF-11C from Macross 7. Clearly cannon fodder but in one episode Gamlin is behind the controls of one and it becomes useful.

Even if we think Destroids should have stronger armor they are also heavier and more slower. Being less nimble they are going to be hit more easier than a agile Valkyrie.

[ChronoReverse]

I think the economic argument is basically right. I mean, you could ask the same question about why tanks in Frontier are so weak compared to destroids. Since tanks are low to the ground and run on tracks, surely they should have even more effective armor than a bipedal war machine? But it doesn't quite work that way.

I'd chalk it down to simply being immobile (relatively).

The valkyries couldn't take the BFG from the Red's either but they're nimble enough to get out of the way usually. The tanks were unfortunate enough to have been clustered together just well enough for the Red's BFG to blow them all up at once =(

[Agent ONE]

When Hikaru pilots one in one of the last few episodes, it seems indestructible.. Its one of those plot cliche things. Things are as tough as is convenient for the plot.

[Mr March]

I'd say Roys point is one of the biggest factors for Destroid/Cannon Fodder performance.

But also keep in mind that Macross always attempts to portray the robots as mass produced weapons of war. There are no invulnerable super robots in Macross. Each mecha is presented like any other piece of military hardware; as armored and practical as possible, but still just a weapon of war that can be destroyed like any other. Thus, without all the exploding mecha, like Destroids and Cannon Fodder Valkyries, the depiction of war in Macross wouldn't be as realistic as it is. Also, being in a vulnerable mecha creates a lot more tension for our characters. Where is the suspense or tension if the audience knows the characters never die and they all pilot invulnerable super machines?

[ChronoReverse]

I'd say that Alto is the best example of that this time around. His valkyrie is ALWAYS getting shot up, blown up or something.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

Another thing to consider is: they may be useless at fighting faster enemy mecha, but good at taking out other things.

So a row of cheap destroids armed with lots of missiles can deal with mass attacks better than a more expensive valkyrie can. The idea is that having large numbers of people all shooting at once increases chance of hitting something or shooting down an incoming missile. So you trade speed for more attempts at hitting objects. It's interesting that in macross plus isamu was vulnerable during his time to reload the yf-19 gunpod.

If there was a mass of enemies rushing towards you, then things like that can lead to wasted opportunities to kill something. (obviously that wasn't what the yf-19 was designed for though - it was more for missions where you sneak in and then sneak out) Being able to kill as many things in as short a time as possible is the key when the enemy *outnumbers you, so the destroids may have that advantage over valks in terms of defending things. The vf-1 in robot mode is seen having to take cover behind buildings and stuff, but if you have to defend a zone and can't leave that area, then I see having 'safety in numbers' as a better way of dealing with it. Cheap robots can still fullfill that one important role of defence on the basis that "more guns is better for the large battles" but where they wouldn't be good at other things. (no ability to move freely in space)

It is more the weapons on the destroids that make them what they are, than the actual robot itself.

*once an enemy surrounds you and your escape is closed and there is no where to run, the solution is just kill them faster than they can kill you - eat the damage but make sure you do more damage to them (having more guns) than they can do to you. More guns, and more people shooting means more enemy targets being taken out at any one time. In a scenario like this maybe moving around isn't going to make much of a difference in the long run if your goal is to just defend a limited space and where you are 90% shooting shooting shooting and 10% moving because the enemies are at a distance where they can't make accurate kills or the damage they do at that range just isn't enough to be worth the effort attacking from?

Edited August 22, 2008 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[ruskiiVFaussie]

They are just not mobile enough. No way could they keep up with a Valks vernier thrustings and quick maneuvers.

Take Roy VS DD just after Roy jettisons the Reactive. Gerwalk somersaults, hand to hand (Destroids only got tree trunk cannon stubs), the vernier play Roy and DD was truly marvelous!

The Zero Cheyenne was much more mobile, and really put up a fantastic fight against DD, he did get unfairly outnumbered in the end.

I like how DD said "What a troublesome fellow..." But yeah, Destroids don't get much time to shine in an anime dedicated to variable fighters....

Edited August 22, 2008 by ruskiiVFaussie

[Mog]

They don't fly.

Granted, I don't think I'd wanna mess with a Monster (including the old-school one).

[JB0]

I thought it wasn't real though? Would they really waste all that money by letting a monster be destroyed like that? It was probably a model or something.

Yes, that's it. That has to be it!

Like all Macross Mecha it depends on who's pilot it. Look at the VF-11C from Macross 7. Clearly cannon fodder but in one episode Gamlin is behind the controls of one and it becomes useful.

Even if we think Destroids should have stronger armor they are also heavier and more slower. Being less nimble they are going to be hit more easier than a agile Valkyrie.

Yes, but Gamlin got Millia's -1J blown up.

Speaking of cannon fodder...

Why are the destroids considered weak when we see so many more VFs getting blown up?

[Gubaba]

Speaking of cannon fodder...

Why are the destroids considered weak when we see so many more VFs getting blown up?

Because we also see VFs blowing up more things than Destroids do...and we also see more VFs returning to the hangars after a battle.