Rank your Macross pilots

[KingNor]

it's amazing that so many of you have somehow missed one of the major keystones of macross, that it's not about how good you are, anyone can get killed any time in combat. your skill might have something to do with your kill count, but it doesn't have much to do with if you die or not.

an ace can fly for 3 months, shoot down five enemies and then be killed in combat. a non-ace can fly for 3 months, kill 2 enemies and be killed in combat. they both survived exactly the same amount of time.

Pilot skill means how well someone can control their plane, has nothing to do with combat skills, many fighters have proven that many things besides raw skill can get you out of hairy situations.

also pilot skill having less effect in a lower performance machine is rediculous, if anything pilot skill means MORE in lower performance vehicles. a prop driven bi-plane cant make up for pilot error with raw thrust, or massive cannons. the pilot needs to size up the situation, prepair, plan, get good position, match mettle with his opponent.

there are no heat seeking long range missles and explosive shells to use in a fokker, no 10:1 thrust weight ratios, no advanced avionics.

ww1 pilots were' probably some of the best and bravest pilots our species will ever see, since the fighter pilot profession will most likely be obsolete in a few decades or lifetimes (what with the plane's capabilities so far out pacing the survivability of the pilot).

IMHO hikaru gets himself into stupid situations like diving into a group of 10 zentradi and relying on them missing him, while he stands stationary and kills them all. that's not good piloting, but it is kills. He makes it out of these situations either on luck, or on simply being the protagonist of the show. maybe it's luck to prove a point in the show. roy was a great pilot (and not a blithering drunk all the time, that's a steriotype that gets over played) and he got killed, both by a random shot and by lack of good self preservation skills (and weird story telling).

I realize it's nice to use kill count as a means to identify "great" pilots, it's a nice easy number to count, pin to a wall and compair to other numbers. but piloting skill is harder to quantify.

What maneuvers could pilot A do that pilot B coudln't? if in the same plane who could do more g's? who could really lead the plane through the air? It's a tough call to make, especially since we're debating fictional characters in hugely varying styles/vehicles/quality productions/eras/etc. characters in these shows can kinda suffer from DragonballZ syndrom where they get more powerful arbitrarily depending on what the episode calls for. The pilots in Macross Frontier withstand G's that would atomize the very plane they're flying, let alone squish the pilot, how can the much more realistically animated mac plus and SDF characters compete?

I feel like i'm rambling, but yeah, kill count doesn't = flying/pilot skills to me. combat flying is it's own beast.

[Bri]

it's amazing that so many of you have somehow missed one of the major keystones of macross, that it's not about how good you are, anyone can get killed any time in combat. your skill might have something to do with your kill count, but it doesn't have much to do with if you die or not.

an ace can fly for 3 months, shoot down five enemies and then be killed in combat. a non-ace can fly for 3 months, kill 2 enemies and be killed in combat. they both survived exactly the same amount of time.

I think you may have missed the point here. Good combat pilots rarely die in combat. This is the case in history and (Macross emulates that). If a pilot lived past his rookie phase he had a good chance of going back home alive. Amongst the best the number of fatalities is more often due to accidents then enemy action.

also pilot skill having less effect in a lower performance machine is rediculous, if anything pilot skill means MORE in lower performance vehicles. a prop driven bi-plane cant make up for pilot error with raw thrust, or massive cannons. the pilot needs to size up the situation, prepair, plan, get good position, match mettle with his opponent.

there are no heat seeking long range missles and explosive shells to use in a fokker, no 10:1 thrust weight ratios, no advanced avionics.

ww1 pilots were' probably some of the best and bravest pilots our species will ever see, since the fighter pilot profession will most likely be obsolete in a few decades or lifetimes (what with the plane's capabilities so far out pacing the survivability of the pilot).

Pilots of that era were very brave men but hardly the best pilots ever. I think thats more of a romantic notion then based in fact. Current day selection processes are far more rigorous and demanding. Chances are a that a large number of WOI aces wouldnt have gotten past the recruitment office of the airforces of the world. Military flying was in it's infancy and dogfighting was more like 2 gliders duking it out with machine guns then complex airmaneuvering. As you said pilot skill in those days revolved around anticipation and marksmanship, not aerobatics, fast decision making or multitasking. By the end of WO2 combat aviation had matured. I'm sure the skill difference between 50s jet pilots and modern day fighter pilots is much smaller then those between the WO1 and WO2 pilots.

I realize it's nice to use kill count as a means to identify "great" pilots, it's a nice easy number to count, pin to a wall and compair to other numbers. but piloting skill is harder to quantify.

It's easier to compare combat pilots as the result: succesfull missions, number of kills, surival rates, combat hours flown, etc can be compared. Pilot skill is more subjective and would require some aerobatics contest or simulation.

The pilots in Macross Frontier withstand G's that would atomize the very plane they're flying, let alone squish the pilot, how can the much more realistically animated mac plus and SDF characters compete?

I feel like i'm rambling, but yeah, kill count doesn't = flying/pilot skills to me. combat flying is it's own beast.

IIRC MF pilots had some kind of G-reducing equipment like inertial dampeners of Star Trek fame.

Comparing combat piloting is easier. Basara haters can rejoice as he can't sing himself to the top of that chart

[ChronoReverse]

also pilot skill having less effect in a lower performance machine is rediculous, if anything pilot skill means MORE in lower performance vehicles. a prop driven bi-plane cant make up for pilot error with raw thrust, or massive cannons. the pilot needs to size up the situation, prepair, plan, get good position, match mettle with his opponent.

Pretty strange view to take. It's not as if great pilots won't just push the limits of the planes anyway and thus remove the margin of error as well.

[dreamweaver13]

Has anyone yet to mention the TRUE worst Macross pilot ever?

SHERYL NOME

(although it could be argued that if she didn't move the valkyrie, her and Michael would have been killed anyways by the cross fire...)

Pete

ah. now that you've opened that up, i would have to point out that your favorite Misa Hayase was even worse. she managed to crash a valk in the 5 or so seconds that she piloted it; and without any enemies in sight.

[SchizophrenicMC]

Worst pilot: Sheryl

Worst UNPROVEN pilot: Probably have to be Kaifun. I mean, come on! He's so Anti-military, no way he'd pilot for it, and if he did, it'd be to show how easily the thing can be destroyed by an idiot in the pilots' seat... I wish he was flushed out an airlock, I really do.

[JB0]

Worst pilot: Sheryl

Worst UNPROVEN pilot: Probably have to be Kaifun. I mean, come on! He's so Anti-military, no way he'd pilot for it, and if he did, it'd be to show how easily the thing can be destroyed by an idiot in the pilots' seat... I wish he was flushed out an airlock, I really do.

I dispute Kaifun. Yot-chan is CLEARLY the worse pilot.

I mean, c'mon... he can't even reach the pedals!

[Mr March]

Yot-Chan is simply in the wrong universe. Put him in a Super Robot show or wearing spandex tights in Gundam Wing and he'd be an ace

Edited February 3, 2009 by Mr March

[Killer Robot]

Worst UNPROVEN pilot: Probably have to be Kaifun. I mean, come on! He's so Anti-military, no way he'd pilot for it, and if he did, it'd be to show how easily the thing can be destroyed by an idiot in the pilots' seat... I wish he was flushed out an airlock, I really do.

I vote Michael Johnson, just since if you managed to stuff him in a VF cockpit he couldn't pull the stick back without hitting his knees.

[SchizophrenicMC]

I vote Michael Johnson, just since if you managed to stuff him in a VF cockpit he couldn't pull the stick back without hitting his knees.

Michael Johnson? Who?

Only tall Michael I can think of is Michael Jordan... Perhaps I need to watch more non-anime...

[Killer Robot]

Michael Johnson? Who?

Only tall Michael I can think of is Michael Jordan... Perhaps I need to watch more non-anime...

Milia's comically large bodyguard from Macross 7. I hope I got the last name right at least, just needed to specify to not be confused with a certain other pilot.

[Gubaba]

I vote Michael Johnson, just since if you managed to stuff him in a VF cockpit he couldn't pull the stick back without hitting his knees.

Don't count him out...according to Macross 7 Docking Festival, he had his spiritia drained by Gigil and was revived, not by Basara's singing, but by a bunch of cute high school girls jogging past him. That kind of powerful spiritia-regeneration ability should not be discounted!

[edwin3060]

He'll need a Playboy with him the in the cockpit when he pilots then Or an internet connection.

[ff95gj]

As we are talking about fictional characters, there isn't a right or wrong answer. (and even if they are real persons, "best pilot" is difficult to quantify all the same) I am ranking basing on my own viewpoint, which is my perception on "how good they are designed/ portraited to be".

#1 Max - The Zentradi is a race of war people, and Milia is the best among them. And then Max defeated Milia!

#2 Milia - See above.

#3 Focker - In Macross Zero, DD is a malicious top ace who mentored Focker. But DD never managed to hurt Focker. In the original series, Focker is the seen-them-all veteran. It's like in an RPG, someone may get better attributes, but Focker has level 99 (not without good attributes, mind you). Yeah he was captured once and killed midway through the show, but that is just the plot.

#3.25 Ozma - He is a clone of Focker. Alto awed more than once by what he can do with the 25S. And a draw with a cyborg in the dark? (somehow good piilots are also good at knife-fighting in the Macross universe... Remember M&M's 1st date)

#3.25 DD - Basically on par with Focker. But Focker outlived and improved.

#3.5 Nora - She is almost as good as DD.

#4 Hikaru - Hikaru is actually good in his own right. However, he needs to look less gentle and more vicious to make fans to think he is a serious deal I suppose.

#4 Isamu - He showed his pilot competency. However, I won't say he is an ace as Focker is.

#4.5 Guld - He loses to Isamu by a very small margin.

#5 Mikhail - He is #1 and Alto #2 in school, and that implies how they are designed in terms of mecha skills.

#5.25 Alto - He might get closer to Ozma near the end of the show (in the 25S vs 171 scene), but then Alto was very serious and Ozma was not. A feeling is that Alto is good, but not as good as the fellows above.

- I didn't watch Macross II...

- Yes, no Macross 7 characters. As stated at the front, I have been ranking by perception. I do not perceive M7 serious on mecha piloting or anything (a guitar controller? fly out to the midst of battlefield and sing?).

[Cent]

Shin was a great pilot... In a F-14. >_> Put everyone in F-14s and he'll be top 3. Otherwise, he wasn't impressive at all in a VF-0.

[UN Spacy]

My new rankings (after watching most of M7).

1a. Max

1b. Milia

2. Roy

3. Basara

4. Isamu

5. Hikaru

6. Gamlin

7. Kinryu

8. Guld

9. Ozma

10. Sylvie

[badboy00z]

I personally would put Gamlin higher than Hikaru.

[edwin3060]

Shin was a great pilot... In a F-14. >_> Put everyone in F-14s and he'll be top 3. Otherwise, he wasn't impressive at all in a VF-0.

Well, he only had what, a few weeks at the most to learn the VF-0? Given time I'm sure he would have been much better-- Roy was impressed enough to take him as a kind of 'protege' after all.

[eugimon]

Yeah, i think we can all agree shin was a gifted fighter pilot, it was the GERWALk/BATTROID stuff he had problems with and he really never got enough time for us to say definitively if he wouldn't have eventually gotten there. Certainly by the end of Zero he was starting to grasp the full potentials of the VF system.

[Letigre]

Shin had potential to be an VF ace..but we'll just never know, will we?

Also, why do I see DD being listed under Roy? I'm pretty sure they fought to some sort of stalemate in every match up.

(On the other hand, smoother Roy would have probably handed Nora her ass.)

[Gubaba]

Shin had potential to be an VF ace..but we'll just never know, will we?

Also, why do I see DD being listed under Roy? I'm pretty sure they fought to some sort of stalemate in every match up.

(On the other hand, smoother Roy would have probably handed Nora her ass.)

And smoothest Roy would've kept her ass for himself!

[edwin3060]

Shin had potential to be an VF ace..but we'll just never know, will we?

Also, why do I see DD being listed under Roy? I'm pretty sure they fought to some sort of stalemate in every match up.

(On the other hand, smoother Roy would have probably handed Nora her ass.)

I think the stated reason was that DD got himself killed and Roy didn't, but the real reason is probably that people like Roy more than DD

[Morpheus]

Hikaru is the best space pilot since he can take a bicycle to space, or Gamlin who can take out a valk with his kick.

[Cent]

Personally I wasn't impressed with any of the pilots from MacF. Most of the show didn't even focus on dogfighting. There was a lot of battroid combat, but most of the flying took place with lame contrails and a camera that was a hundred miles out. Ozma did only one admirable thing, which was block a shot with his PBS, then started to throw Vajra limbs as weapons. That still doesn't put him anywhere near the top of the list.

I can accept Max being up there, fighting in close quarters with nearly no visibility with a Meltran. (That was awesome, how come we don't have sweet scenes like that anymore?) Milia is good too, but I doubt she's better than Isamu. And Focker is also up there, tied with Isamu.

That was my big problem with Frontier. No true aces that they showed off, and the most bad ass person you could find was the captain of the Quarter... Flirting with a deck of women.

Edited February 24, 2009 by Cent

[Killer Robot]

I can accept Max being up there, fighting in close quarters with nearly no visibility with a Meltran. (That was awesome, how come we don't have sweet scenes like that anymore?)

Hey now, Ozma did an homage to that scene, facing down a cyborg in a dark passage. He just wasn't in his VF.

If he ends up marrying Brera, Ranka's family situation will be very, very confusing.

[Cent]

Uhm... Doesn't him not being in any sort of vehicle already put this outside of the 'piloting' skill realm? I don't count that scene because he wasn't in a VF

Next, you're going to tell me that martial artists in the Macross world make great pilots.

Edited February 24, 2009 by Cent

[REbirth]

Next, you're going to tell me that martial artists in the Macross world make great pilots.

I dunno in Macross world, but martial artists are pretty good pilots in G Gundam (SHINGINGUU FINGAA) hahah.

But seriously, Basara from Macross 7's fighting skill is just as good as his piloting. Brera too, but the guy is supposed to be combat cyborg/pilot.

Edited February 24, 2009 by REbirth

[edwin3060]

Personally I wasn't impressed with any of the pilots from MacF. Most of the show didn't even focus on dogfighting. There was a lot of battroid combat, but most of the flying took place with lame contrails and a camera that was a hundred miles out. Ozma did only one admirable thing, which was block a shot with his PBS, then started to throw Vajra limbs as weapons. That still doesn't put him anywhere near the top of the list.

I can accept Max being up there, fighting in close quarters with nearly no visibility with a Meltran. (That was awesome, how come we don't have sweet scenes like that anymore?) Milia is good too, but I doubt she's better than Isamu. And Focker is also up there, tied with Isamu.

That was my big problem with Frontier. No true aces that they showed off, and the most bad ass person you could find was the captain of the Quarter... Flirting with a deck of women.

Well the MacF movie is supposed to have alot more in-atmosphere action so we might get more dogfighting ala MacPlus/Mac0 there.

[Cent]

Well the MacF movie is supposed to have alot more in-atmosphere action so we might get more dogfighting ala MacPlus/Mac0 there.

That's a lame excuse really. Are they telling me they can't do good dogfight choreography in space, whereas they can in atmosphere? Where's the logic in that? Besides, we DID see Alto duel in atmosphere with the Zentradi rebels, and that was disappointing too. Really, I doubt the movie will be any different. It's not the situation, its the direction and focus MacF has is not closely tied to intense piloting.

[Killer Robot]

Uhm... Doesn't him not being in any sort of vehicle already put this outside of the 'piloting' skill realm? I don't count that scene because he wasn't in a VF

Next, you're going to tell me that martial artists in the Macross world make great pilots.

Oh, that was an aside. You asked why there weren't more scenes like that after all.

[edwin3060]

That's a lame excuse really. Are they telling me they can't do good dogfight choreography in space, whereas they can in atmosphere? Where's the logic in that? Besides, we DID see Alto duel in atmosphere with the Zentradi rebels, and that was disappointing too. Really, I doubt the movie will be any different. It's not the situation, its the direction and focus MacF has is not closely tied to intense piloting.

Well, in atmosphere you have more reference objects and all those cool vapour trails to keep things in perspective I guess. I'm just going from the interviews we have had so far. Also, I'm not sure how much time/money they have to animate cool dogfights in the tv series, since both Mac0 and Plus were OVAs/Movies. I still have hope that they will be able to fit one or two action sequences into the movie-- maybe they could draw out that Alto/Ozma dogfight more, or some Alto/Brera etc.

I think Alto's qualification test was probably one of the more spectacular dogfights in the show.

[Killer Robot]

Well, in atmosphere you have more reference objects and all those cool vapour trails to keep things in perspective I guess. I'm just going from the interviews we have had so far. Also, I'm not sure how much time/money they have to animate cool dogfights in the tv series, since both Mac0 and Plus were OVAs/Movies. I still have hope that they will be able to fit one or two action sequences into the movie-- maybe they could draw out that Alto/Ozma dogfight more, or some Alto/Brera etc.

I think Alto's qualification test was probably one of the more spectacular dogfights in the show.

That's a pretty good point. Taking just the other TV series into consideration, I can't really call MacF low on dogfighting. SDFM and 7 likewise had a lot of "mecha zoom across the screen firing weapons, some blowing up", "quick pass", and "battroids punching each other" scenes in preference to complex and expensive dogfighting scenes.

[Mr March]

IMO, I found the combat/dogfighting/battle scenes from Macross Frontier in no way disappointing. If I could criticize Macross Frontier for anything, the action certainly wouldn't be one of it's faults. And as a Gundam 00 fan, I've found Macross Frontier has even somewhat spoiled me when comparing battle sequences between shows, despite Gundam 00's top notch animation. To me, that speaks very highly of what Macross Frontier was able to accomplish visually.

[edwin3060]

IMO, I found the combat/dogfighting/battle scenes from Macross Frontier in no way disappointing. If I could criticize Macross Frontier for anything, the action certainly wouldn't be one of it's faults. And as a Gundam 00 fan, I've found Macross Frontier has even somewhat spoiled me when comparing battle sequences between shows, despite Gundam 00's top notch animation. To me, that speaks very highly of what Macross Frontier was able to accomplish visually.

Awww comeon-- Gundam is the punching boy here Gundam is not really about the intricacies of dogfighting or piloting more than it is about big chunky robots moving around! It's not a fair comparison.

Overall, I'd say that the whole of MacF has about half the number of good dogfights that MacPlus and MacZero have--the rest of it is just Gundamseque cannon fodder flying around getting shot up action filler sequences. Coming just after MacZero, I'd say it was a disappointment seeing as to how it was 2.5 times longer (in terms of animation time).

But like I said, MacZero/+ are OVAs with higher per-episode budgets allowing for more complicated fight scenes to be animated. Compared to the last broadcast series, I'd say that MacF was at least as big an improvment over Mac7 that MacZero was over Mac+ in terms of action/dogfighting.

[Mr March]

Awww comeon-- Gundam is the punching boy here Gundam is not really about the intricacies of dogfighting or piloting more than it is about big chunky robots moving around! It's not a fair comparison.

Overall, I'd say that the whole of MacF has about half the number of good dogfights that MacPlus and MacZero have--the rest of it is just Gundamseque cannon fodder flying around getting shot up action filler sequences. Coming just after MacZero, I'd say it was a disappointment seeing as to how it was 2.5 times longer (in terms of animation time).

But like I said, MacZero/+ are OVAs with higher per-episode budgets allowing for more complicated fight scenes to be animated. Compared to the last broadcast series, I'd say that MacF was at least as big an improvment over Mac7 that MacZero was over Mac+ in terms of action/dogfighting.

I know Gundam often gets flack here on MW, but please give me and my post the benefit of the doubt. I wasn't really referring to the stylistic differences in combat between Gundam mobile suit fights and Macross valkyrie battles. I was talking about real world animation techniques and that I've been spoiled by the accomplishments of Macross Frontier CGI animation.

I've always been both praising and critical of CGI animation in anime, but Macross Frontier is the first series I've watched where the CGI mecha animation has finally caught up with and even surpassed that unique visual style we've all come to know and love from 2D hand drawn animation from Japan. Now, going back to something like Gundam 00 after experiencing something like Macross Frontier, it's a little bit disappointing because Macross Frontier has spoiled my taste for the best that CGI mecha action can offer over 2D. For me, Macross Frontier really is a turning point for anime mecha action, at least in a visual sense if not in a narrative sense. It began with toon shaded CGI vehicles in stuff like Ghost in the Shell: SAC and Yukikaze, but Macross Frontier is really the show that has brought this type of animation into it's own. The Macross Frontier CGI mecha animation at lasts feels "anime-like" in the conceptualization and execution of the scenes. It finally feels like I'm watching Japanese style animation with that same aesthetic feeling and the same Itano Circus, only in 3D now rather than 2D. Even Macross Zero, with a bigger per episode budget and higher polygon count models, did not achieve a successful merging of CGI technology with aesthetic style the way Macross Frontier has.

That's all I was really saying. Besides, I'm having a ball with Gundam 00 and trust me when I say that means a lot coming from me

[Cent]

I agree about the qual test being one of the best dogfights... But it disappointed me that it was a good dogfight scene done when Alto was still getting better at piloting, so we didn't get footage to accurately reflect his peak performance.

Mac0 had some good dogfight scenes too, although Shin still sucked XD. At least Focker was pretty good, but they should have given him more time in a plane.

As for reference points in space, there was lots of space debris they used in MacF. On top of that, fighting near in the Zentradi derelicts was awesome, and skittering across the surface of other larger fleet ships was good too... They had the props; they just didn't give it focus. You may be right about budget costs though. MacF started having to repeat clips nearer to the end.