Rank your Macross pilots

[Gubaba]

does that make hikaru the best after all?

Nah, it makes those three old Monster pilots from Macross 7 the best...after all, they drove a destroid in TWO wars, and came out alive.

[KingNor]

does that make hikaru the best after all?

hikaru is an interesting exception. i'm not sure why anyone would think he's a great pilot, he's possibly the most shot down mecha pilot of all time. he must have raw plotonium running through his veins to keep him alive.

it's been quite a while since i watched but i know he was shot down in the vf-1d... twice? then he got it so beat up that Roy had to save him. then he flew his turbo prop plane INTO SPACE and crashed it into the SDF. then i belive he got his VF-1J blown up by the Daedalus maneuver, then crashed his 1J into that spy thing the zentradi were using, which then exploded. He also got captured by the zentradi. The excalibur he was using took an unprecidented amount of damage with out exploding outright, which i attribute to his plotonium blood. (that was hikaru's excalibur right?) He also crashed and burned several times with both Misa and Minmay.. there's no end to this guys incompetence. I forget if he ever wrecked Skull 001 or Booby Duck, but I wouldn't put it past him.

hell, he was probably behind the wheel of the Megaroad when it went off the radar, seriously i wouldn't be supprised.

Edited January 31, 2009 by KingNor

[dreamweaver13]

hikaru is an interesting exception. i'm not sure why anyone would think he's a great pilot, he's possibly the most shot down mecha pilot of all time. he must have raw plotonium running through his veins to keep him alive.

it's been quite a while since i watched but i know he was shot down in the vf-1d... twice? then he got it so beat up that Roy had to save him. then he flew his turbo prop plane INTO SPACE and crashed it into the SDF. then i belive he got his VF-1J blown up by the Daedalus maneuver, then crashed his 1J into that spy thing the zentradi were using, which then exploded. He also got captured by the zentradi. The excalibur he was using took an unprecidented amount of damage with out exploding outright, which i attribute to his plotonium blood. (that was hikaru's excalibur right?) He also crashed and burned several times with both Misa and Minmay.. there's no end to this guys incompetence. I forget if he ever wrecked Skull 001 or Booby Duck, but I wouldn't put it past him.

hell, he was probably behind the wheel of the Megaroad when it went off the radar, seriously i wouldn't be supprised.

And my answer to that would be in this very same thread:

http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?...st&p=655535

[edwin3060]

hikaru is an interesting exception. i'm not sure why anyone would think he's a great pilot, he's possibly the most shot down mecha pilot of all time. he must have raw plotonium running through his veins to keep him alive.

it's been quite a while since i watched but i know he was shot down in the vf-1d... twice? then he got it so beat up that Roy had to save him. then he flew his turbo prop plane INTO SPACE and crashed it into the SDF. then i belive he got his VF-1J blown up by the Daedalus maneuver, then crashed his 1J into that spy thing the zentradi were using, which then exploded. He also got captured by the zentradi. The excalibur he was using took an unprecidented amount of damage with out exploding outright, which i attribute to his plotonium blood. (that was hikaru's excalibur right?) He also crashed and burned several times with both Misa and Minmay.. there's no end to this guys incompetence. I forget if he ever wrecked Skull 001 or Booby Duck, but I wouldn't put it past him.

hell, he was probably behind the wheel of the Megaroad when it went off the radar, seriously i wouldn't be supprised.

Hikaru.. the Homer Simpson of Macross!

[KingNor]

And my answer to that would be in this very same thread:

http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?...st&p=655535

luck isn't a skill.... My main justification is that Isamu is an idiot.

If Max is akin to Manfred von Richthofen then that puts Isamu akin to a redilin deprived hyper active A.D.D. kid with too much sugar in his system and soaked in coffee.

Max and Isamu both survived a lot of stuff, but for very.. very.. different reasons.

[KingNor]

Ok this is a little off topic, but after my above crack, i went to the Red Barrons wiki page out of curriosity.

check out this line:

In January 1917, after his 16th confirmed kill, Richthofen received the Pour le Mérite ("The Blue Max"), the highest military honor in Germany at the time.

So the best pilot in Germany who flew a bright red and white plane (the colors of miria's plane) was awarded a medal called the Blue Max? Btw also in the article, the tri-plane that Richthofen was so famous in was a Fokker.

Since so much of macross's machinery is pulled from military history i think it's pretty safe to see the some connections there. You think it's just coincidence?

[Letigre]

I still would say, given the alleged history of the YF-19 test plane before he arrived. Isamu has to be a very skilled pilot, but maybe a tad too reckless to be someone epic as some of the in-universe aces. He's really suited for the top of the middle tier, or the very bottom of what's considered the top tier of Macross pilots. I think he's akin to Nora, both exceptionally skilled pilots, but have a niggling (serious?) flaw that keeps them from being the very best (Isamu's recklessness and Nora's rampant emotions.)

[anime52k8]

I forget if he ever wrecked Skull 001 or Booby Duck, but I wouldn't put it past him.

hell, he was probably behind the wheel of the Megaroad when it went off the radar, seriously i wouldn't be supprised.

he got Skull 001's arms blown off right before he goes to rescue Misa. so yeah, he sucks.

:edit:

now that I think about it, I'd rate Guld and Michael both higher than hikaru.

Edited February 1, 2009 by anime52k8

[Bri]

I feel Hikaru is heavily underestimated. If we are talking combat pilots then Hikaru is the only pilot thats a match for M&M. Hikaru is both an established stuntpilot in a flying circus and amateur aerobatics champion before he became a fighter pilot. That alone is enough to call him an expert pilot. Kawamori is a airplane fanatic and he knows his aviation history.

Losing a plane shouldn't affect ranking. For example: histories greatest ace Eric Hartman lost 14 planes while getting 352 confirmed kills. In general top aces rarely die in combat, but most of them have lost several planes during their carreers.

Kawamori is a airplane fanatic and he knows his aviation history. I'm curious about the following SDFM similarities to the real world:

3 Japanse aces who flew together during WO2: Hiroyoshi Nishizawa, Saburo Sakai and Toshio Ohta. Nishizawa was a introvert gaunt man who did not seem like a fighter pilot at all but who considered near invicible in his Zero and performed extreme maneuvers with his plane, Sakai survived the war and questioned it's cause. Strove for peace after the war and sought out and made friends with allied airmen, Otha was an outgoing man who was more at home in a nightclub then at an airbase. Died early in the war. Sounds a lot like Vermilion group

And then there was "Lilya", a beautiful Russian female ace whose nickname came from the white Lily that was reportedly painted on her fighter. Was killed in action after being singled out by the Germans. Took 8 Bf109s to kill her. Was a feared specialist in dog-fighting and enemy fighters tended to avoid her when recognised. Milia hunting down Max an ironic twist on this event?

[edwin3060]

That would be interesting if true! SK never mentioned those as inspirations before.

[KingNor]

I feel Hikaru is heavily underestimated. If we are talking combat pilots then Hikaru is the only pilot thats a match for M&M. Hikaru is both an established stuntpilot in a flying circus and amateur aerobatics champion before he became a fighter pilot. That alone is enough to call him an expert pilot. Kawamori is a airplane fanatic and he knows his aviation history.

Losing a plane shouldn't affect ranking. For example: histories greatest ace Eric Hartman lost 14 planes while getting 352 confirmed kills. In general top aces rarely die in combat, but most of them have lost several planes during their carreers.

actualy, hikaru is SUPPOSEDLY an established stunt pilot, the only stunts i saw him perform was a dangerouns flythrough of a valkyrie high speed pass and a verticle rocket burn. maybe in the flying circus he wasn't so much a stunt pilot as a warm body to fly the dangerous parts of the show. "look hikaru, sit in the seat, when i tell you, fire the rockets, try not to die" one of the criteria is that feats of daring do need to be on screen, hikarus aerobatics are all mentioned but not seen.

wether or not crashing planes is considered good piloting or not i guess can be a mater of debate. i'd also have to take exception to top aces rarely dieing in combat, i think they die just as often as anyone else. several top aces i can think of died in combat, several of the fling tigers, the red barron, the marine pilots that were killed defending midway, i'd have to research more, and i don't remember names.

imagine how good hikaru would be if he'd just get his hair out of his face.

[SchizophrenicMC]

actualy, hikaru is SUPPOSEDLY an established stunt pilot, the only stunts i saw him perform was a dangerouns flythrough of a valkyrie high speed pass and a verticle rocket burn. maybe in the flying circus he wasn't so much a stunt pilot as a warm body to fly the dangerous parts of the show. "look hikaru, sit in the seat, when i tell you, fire the rockets, try not to die" one of the criteria is that feats of daring do need to be on screen, hikarus aerobatics are all mentioned but not seen.

wether or not crashing planes is considered good piloting or not i guess can be a mater of debate. i'd also have to take exception to top aces rarely dieing in combat, i think they die just as often as anyone else. several top aces i can think of died in combat, several of the fling tigers, the red barron, the marine pilots that were killed defending midway, i'd have to research more, and i don't remember names.

imagine how good hikaru would be if he'd just get his hair out of his face.

Didn't he mention winning a bunch of contests in the years preluding SWI?

I think Hikaru's a good pilot. Given, he's no M&M, but he's still pretty good.

Besides, M&M never got 1S.

[Bri]

actualy, hikaru is SUPPOSEDLY an established stunt pilot, the only stunts i saw him perform was a dangerouns flythrough of a valkyrie high speed pass and a verticle rocket burn. maybe in the flying circus he wasn't so much a stunt pilot as a warm body to fly the dangerous parts of the show. "look hikaru, sit in the seat, when i tell you, fire the rockets, try not to die" one of the criteria is that feats of daring do need to be on screen, hikarus aerobatics are all mentioned but not seen.

wether or not crashing planes is considered good piloting or not i guess can be a mater of debate. i'd also have to take exception to top aces rarely dieing in combat, i think they die just as often as anyone else. several top aces i can think of died in combat, several of the fling tigers, the red barron, the marine pilots that were killed defending midway, i'd have to research more, and i don't remember names.

imagine how good hikaru would be if he'd just get his hair out of his face.

In the episode 23 where Kaifun kisses Minmey Hikara takes on and kills 13 Zentran pods in short succesion, the skills are there if you wish to see them. Difference is that SDFM doesnt have the animation that later series have.

As for aces not dying often in combat. It's simple statistics. Only way to get those high kill numbers is by not getting killed yourself. Reckless pilots did not live long enough to reach top spots.

The US statistics are a bit skewed due to the practise of turning experienced pilots into instructors.

The Red Barons is one of the aces who died. While very famous he was not an exceptional pilot and later aces raked up much higher kill numbers. He was a great shot though but we all know what happens to snipers...

[SchizophrenicMC]

In the episode 23 where Kaifun kisses Minmey Hikara takes on and kills 13 Zentran pods in short succesion, the skills are there if you wish to see them. Difference is that SDFM doesnt have the animation that later series have.

"GO AND KILL!"

As for aces not dying often in combat. It's simple statistics. Only way to get those high kill numbers is by not getting killed yourself. Reckless pilots did not live long enough to reach top spots.

"It's kill or be killed out there."

The US statistics are a bit skewed due to the practise of turning experienced pilots into instructors.

"Let's get down to business, to defeat the Huns!"

The Red Barons is one of the aces who died. While very famous he was not an exceptional pilot and later aces raked up much higher kill numbers. He was a great shot though but we all know what happens to snipers...

"Do we have any air support?"

"You are the support, son!"

OR

"We need air support."

"Negative, Colonel. All Ravens are currently evac'ing citizens or prepping for the bomb drop."

"I guess we are the support, huh, Colonel?"

OR

"You know, the helmets have a filter. If you wore the helmets, you wouldn't have to breathe the dust!"

"Yeah, but then I wouldn't be able to see snipers!"

"Calm down, Dom."

[anime52k8]

The Red Barons is one of the aces who died. While very famous he was not an exceptional pilot and later aces raked up much higher kill numbers. He was a great shot though but we all know what happens to snipers...

except that he was an exceptional pilot with the highest number of kills amongst his contemporaries (with the majority of those kill being against numerically and technologically superior enemies.) he may not have been an acrobatic pilot but that in no way diminishes his level of skill.

fancy flying is like a trick draw in a gunfight; it may look cool but it's only going to get you killed faster. what makes a combat pilot exceptional is an ability to develop and apply tactics that play their strengths off their opponents weaknesses during the dynamic engagement of a dogfight; and Richthofen did it better than anyone in his day.

as for his kill count being surpassed, it has as much to do with changes in technology and time than it does with pilot skill. most of the top scoring aces of WWII few for longer time frames than Richthofen and flew missions more frequently, the also had the advantage of better fighters and superior training (the aces of WWII learned from the lessons that pilots like Richthofen laid down.) Not to mention that by the second world war air power had greatly expanded and there were frankly more people to shoot down.

and as for the coment about snipers... I think Carlos hathcock would like to have a word with you.

[CrusherJ]

I feel Hikaru is heavily underestimated. If we are talking combat pilots then Hikaru is the only pilot thats a match for M&M. Hikaru is both an established stuntpilot in a flying circus and amateur aerobatics champion before he became a fighter pilot. That alone is enough to call him an expert pilot. Kawamori is a airplane fanatic and he knows his aviation history.

I agree with Bri that Hikaru is underestimated as a fighter pilot. The instances that I can recall right now that show his skills are:

1) The battle on Mars Base when he rescues Misa, he landed in the middle of 10 or so battle pods and took them all out without a scratch.

2) The incident that Bri mentioned earlier when Hikaru took on 13 pods and won after he saw Kaifun kiss Minmay.

3) I can't remember the name of the episode (I think it's Photo Album)...anyway, it's episode 28 when Hikaru's squadron answers a call that Zentradi who've stolen pods are running rampant in a city. The two wingmen were fighting what seemed like a losing battle with the pods then Hikaru shows up and defeats both of them in a minute.

4) When he rescued Minmay and Kaifun from Kamjin (forget the episode title)

5) In Farewell to Tenderness when he charged Kamjin's ship after it fired it's main cannon on the Macross.

These are the only incidents I can think of right now, but I think they show that Hikaru was more than just a good pilot. I think he was an ace, not on the level of Max and Millia, but I definitely think he ranks alot higher than some people place him. I'd put him either even with Roy or one below (Roy just had style about him when he flew!)

[Vostok 7]

Didn't he mention winning a bunch of contests in the years preluding SWI?

I think Hikaru's a good pilot. Given, he's no M&M, but he's still pretty good.

Besides, M&M never got 1S.

Flying or not flying an S isn't an indication of anything other than rank. Roy got an S because he was a CAG (right?), Hikaru took over his role (though, MAX did first in DYRL before he went off to fly Q-Raus with Millia). Just because M&M never used S-types is because they either preferred the Js, or their ranks never got high enough, but neither is an indication that they weren't top aces. You can be a top ace and NOT be the highest rank possible, especially if you have the flying skills but not the leadership.

Vostok 7

[Morpheus]

Flying or not flying an S isn't an indication of anything other than rank. Roy got an S because he was a CAG (right?), Hikaru took over his role (though, MAX did first in DYRL before he went off to fly Q-Raus with Millia). Just because M&M never used S-types is because they either preferred the Js, or their ranks never got high enough, but neither is an indication that they weren't top aces. You can be a top ace and NOT be the highest rank possible, especially if you have the flying skills but not the leadership.

Vostok 7

Or the attitude....imagine what happened if Isamu became a squadron leader.

Hikaru may not be as good as Max, but his leadership capability is unquestionable, if he didn't dissapear with Misa, I bet he would be the fleet commander for SDF-3 Pioneer.....I mean Macross 7 colony fleet.

[SchizophrenicMC]

Flying or not flying an S isn't an indication of anything other than rank. Roy got an S because he was a CAG (right?), Hikaru took over his role (though, MAX did first in DYRL before he went off to fly Q-Raus with Millia). Just because M&M never used S-types is because they either preferred the Js, or their ranks never got high enough, but neither is an indication that they weren't top aces. You can be a top ace and NOT be the highest rank possible, especially if you have the flying skills but not the leadership.

Vostok 7

Their Incap Count is higher than their kill count. Remember Miriya shot non-lethal at the Zentraedi?

Moving on, I consider DYRL? Only canon in design. Its story is not canon. At least to me. Until we have proof otherwise, (Macross Ace) DYRL?'s a moot point.

S is saved for the best pilots. They also tend to rank higher. And look at Hikaru. He was still a Lieutenant when he got the Skull-1. What does that tell you?

Js are sub-par, and M&M choosing Js shows their intelligence, though maybe not their skill.

To each his own, and this ends now.

[Morpheus]

S is saved for the best pilots. They also tend to rank higher. And look at Hikaru. He was still a Lieutenant when he got the Skull-1. What does that tell you?

I have to disagree, S is for squad leader which mean leadership capability is much more important than skill.

Look at Diamond Squadron, Gamlin is a much more seasoned pilot (and trained by Miriya herself), but he doesn't got his VF-17S.

When Hikaru got his S, I doubt that none of his squad member could outrank him at that time.

[SchizophrenicMC]

I have to disagree, S is for squad leader which mean leadership capability is much more important than skill.

Look at Diamond Squadron, Gamlin is a much more seasoned pilot (and trained by Miriya herself), but he doesn't got his VF-17S.

When Hikaru got his S, I doubt that none of his squad member could outrank him at that time.

But Max was promoted out to another squadron, right?

[Bri]

except that he was an exceptional pilot with the highest number of kills amongst his contemporaries (with the majority of those kill being against numerically and technologically superior enemies.) he may not have been an acrobatic pilot but that in no way diminishes his level of skill.

English and German planes took turns in superiority depending on which model came available at any given time. Arguably the best fighter in Wo I was the Fokker D.VII. Numerical superiority did not affect Richterhoffen as he flew with an elite squadron and usually had local air superiority.

fancy flying is like a trick draw in a gunfight; it may look cool but it's only going to get you killed faster. what makes a combat pilot exceptional is an ability to develop and apply tactics that play their strengths off their opponents weaknesses during the dynamic engagement of a dogfight; and Richthofen did it better than anyone in his day.

Richterhoffen was the best marksman of his contemporaries. Planes were so primitive that pilot skill was secondary to being a good shot. Boelcke was the key tactician who developed fighter tactics, Richterhofen build on those tactics. Irony is that both died by breaking the rules they had help develop.

as for his kill count being surpassed, it has as much to do with changes in technology and time than it does with pilot skill. most of the top scoring aces of WWII few for longer time frames than Richthofen and flew missions more frequently, the also had the advantage of better fighters and superior training (the aces of WWII learned from the lessons that pilots like Richthofen laid down.) Not to mention that by the second world war air power had greatly expanded and there were frankly more people to shoot down.

Also means there are a lot more people to shoot you down aswell. In WO2 piloting skills mattered more then in WO1 due to the greater capabilities of aircraft.

This said the original argument was that the top aces generally don't die in combat. I checked up some info and it would seem that Richthofen was the first and last top scoring ace in any conflict to die in combat.

Now we can return to our regular programming of discussing Hikaru's ( presumed lack of ) skill

Edited February 2, 2009 by Bri

[SchizophrenicMC]

Hikaru doesn't lack skill, just a haircut! The boy needs a damn haircut. Why do you think Roy didn't see the pineapple salad coming? His mullet got in the way of his peripherals!

[anime52k8]

English and German planes took turns in superiority depending on which model came available at any given time. Arguably the best fighter in Wo I was the Fokker D.VII. Numerical superiority did not affect Richterhoffen as he flew with an elite squadron and usually had local air superiority.

except the Fokker D.VII wasn't rolled out until some 2 months after Rechthofen death. Fact of the matter was that even when flying in a squadron they were still flying against larger formations, and of the various planes Richthofen flew, He more often than not was engaging enemies who had superior planes.

Richterhoffen was the best marksman of his contemporaries. Planes were so primitive that pilot skill was secondary to being a good shot. Boelcke was the key tactician who developed fighter tactics, Richterhofen build on those tactics. Irony is that both died by breaking the rules they had help develop.

actually Richthofen died because he was shot once in the chest by ground fire. also Richthofen was most likely suffering from a brain injury do to head trauma at the time of his death.

Also means there are a lot more people to shoot you down aswell. In WO2 piloting skills mattered more then in WO1 due to the greater capabilities of aircraft.

still doesn't change the fact that there is greater opportunity for kills. anyways, since Richthofen (and none of the other top WWI aces) ever flew in WWII, we'll never know how well they would have done.

[Bri]

anyways, since Richthofen (and none of the other top WWI aces) ever flew in WWII, we'll never know how well they would have done.

Exactly, so it's safe to conclude that comparing Hikaru's skill to later Valk pilots is difficult as their equipment and tactics might have improved. The only way to compare is to see how they function in their own era. As Hikaru lived through SW1 while pilots like DD Ivanov, Roy Focker, Guld Boa Bowmen, Michel Blanc and Nora Polianski got killed. Allowing old Hikky to gather kills while they all got disqualified for the top ratings due to being dead ( which is arguably worse then losing a couple of Valks).

So the remaining contestants for spot 3 after M&M are Hikaru, Gamlin, Isamu and Alto/Ozma. As Hikaru both outranks and has higher kill scores (on screen and assumed from his in universe combat time) he is clearly humber 3

[D.D. Ivanov]

But Ivanov and Nora were killed by an ancient bio-superweapon. Hikaru didn't go up against AFOS. Roy died because he clearly thought food was more important than medical attention. Michel wasn't even in his plane. And Guld sacrificed himself.

[dreamweaver13]

luck isn't a skill.... My main justification is that Isamu is an idiot.

If Max is akin to Manfred von Richthofen then that puts Isamu akin to a redilin deprived hyper active A.D.D. kid with too much sugar in his system and soaked in coffee.

Max and Isamu both survived a lot of stuff, but for very.. very.. different reasons.

I was only half serious when i equated Hikaru's amazing luck with his skill (coz there are indications of his skill in SDFM other than his ability to survive, as others have cited by now). but then again, at the end of the day, the best one is the one who's still alive... (and no, death by blackhole doesn't count. but who'd bet against me that Hikaru survived even that? hehe).

So the best pilot in Germany who flew a bright red and white plane (the colors of miria's plane) was awarded a medal called the Blue Max? Btw also in the article, the tri-plane that Richthofen was so famous in was a Fokker.

I knew about the fokker, but not about the Blue Max. good catch.

But Ivanov and Nora were killed by an ancient bio-superweapon. Hikaru didn't go up against AFOS. Roy died because he clearly thought food was more important than medical attention. Michel wasn't even in his plane. And Guld sacrificed himself.

Who says it was all about the food?

[anime52k8]

Exactly, so it's safe to conclude that comparing Hikaru's skill to later Valk pilots is difficult as their equipment and tactics might have improved. The only way to compare is to see how they function in their own era. As Hikaru lived through SW1 while pilots like DD Ivanov, Roy Focker, Guld Boa Bowmen, Michel Blanc and Nora Polianski got killed. Allowing old Hikky to gather kills while they all got disqualified for the top ratings due to being dead ( which is arguably worse then losing a couple of Valks).

So the remaining contestants for spot 3 after M&M are Hikaru, Gamlin, Isamu and Alto/Ozma. As Hikaru both outranks and has higher kill scores (on screen and assumed from his in universe combat time) he is clearly humber 3

I personally don't consider dieing to be any kind of disqualifier, especially in cases like Guld and Michel where the weren't bested by a superior adversary but knowingly sacrificed themselves. as for roy, his death is (in SDF:M anyways) a total fluke, very much like Richthofen's death. The damage to Roy's valk was almost trivial, much less savvier than damage that Hikaru's valk has sustained. Roy was just unlucky and happen to take a couple of pieces of flack in the back and bled out before he could be taken to a hospital. (same thing happens to ozma and he lives, is he a better pilot than roy?)

anyway's rank and shown kill count tell us very little. Isamu for instance would have been higher rank if he didn't f**k up so much on the ground and when not in combat, he's still a very good fighter pilot. and as for kills, a big factor is again how many opertunities a pilot has for kills. SWI was probebly the single largest conflict in human history, Max and Roy and Hikaru were flying frequent missions with Massive furballs with hundreds of plains on each side. a lot of their kills were scored by cutting though battles blasting enemies who were too busy attacking other people to see them coming.

on say frontier, alto was with SMS for less than a year, and probably few fewer combat missions than hikaru in the same amount of time so of course he's going to have fewer kills.

and whe have relativally little idea about Isamu or Ozma's military history. we don't know much about Ozma's prior service with the NUNS, nor do we know what combat record Isamu had before the start of Mac+

Roy would have been able to beat hikaru in a fight and seemed to rack up more kills per sortie than hikaru. so roy is still better than hikaru. since we can't make a direct comparison between Gamlin and hikaru/roy since he was around much latter, but since he flew with Max/millia we have a form of a gauge in that we can look at how much better max/millia were compared to roy and compared to Gamlin, and who ever gets blown out of the water less is the superior.

[JB0]

S is saved for the best pilots. They also tend to rank higher. And look at Hikaru. He was still a Lieutenant when he got the Skull-1. What does that tell you?

That they were short on manpower.

The show takes great pains to point out that people are being promoted far faster than they should be.

Hikaru may well have been the most-experienced pilot IN Skull Squadron after Focker died.

Js are sub-par, and M&M choosing Js shows their intelligence, though maybe not their skill.

It wasn't a choice.

Js are what was available.

The Macross had limited supplies, they couldn't pop new planes out at will. That the Jeniuses were ASSIGNED 1Js shows that someone felt they needed better than a 1A.

Post-war, there's STILL limited resources, and cranking out VF-1Ses for everybody is secondary to, you know, rebuilding the planet.

After that? Max and Millia weren't flying VF-1s for their entire career. She's flying an 11 in the 7+ episode where she's teaching Gamlin to be awesome in flight school, and there's a small collection of available planes to fly in M3(including the couple's trademark 1Js, of course., as well as the much-loved VF-4. and the VF-14).

Millia flew her 1J again in Macross 7, but... she was retired. She no longer had need of a top-end fighter plane. It was a large, but awesome, memento from her younger days.

[eugimon]

both DYRL and SDFM showed that Hikaru (when he was paying attention) had greater situational awareness than did Max. It was Hikaru who actually spots and understands the greater strategy of the enemy forces while max is off doing his thing. In both DYRL and in the show, Max either leaves his wingmen or the primary mission goal in order to go after kills.

Max is definitely the better pilot but I think Hikaru is definitely the better commander.

[VFTF1]

Has anyone yet to mention the TRUE worst Macross pilot ever?

SHERYL NOME

(although it could be argued that if she didn't move the valkyrie, her and Michael would have been killed anyways by the cross fire...)

Pete

[eugimon]

Has anyone yet to mention the TRUE worst Macross pilot ever?

SHERYL NOME

(although it could be argued that if she didn't move the valkyrie, her and Michael would have been killed anyways by the cross fire...)

Pete

she did just about as well as shin did the first time he tried to fly in GERWALK.

Actually, by that mark, Hikaru is much better than Shin, since he could control his valk (first time out) much better and even managed a kill.

[VFTF1]

Actually, by that mark, Hikaru is much better than Shin, since he could control his valk (first time out) much better and even managed a kill.

Well Shin ALMOST managed to kill Mao - that's got to count for something

Pete

[Bri]

Rankings are based on what is achieved, not on what could have been.

For example: arguably the best QB of all time is Joe Montana (or Johny Unitas, Dan Marino or a handfull of others). These players all had long careers that allowed them to achieve their great stats. No one will claim that great potentials who got their careers cut short or didn't have a good team are contenders for that honor. Luck and being the right man at the right time play a role. Don't see why that would be any different for pilots.

Hikky went the distance so he got the rank and the birds. Haven't seen any match up between Hikaru and Roy. There is no indication that Hikaru flew Skull 001 worse then Roy other then Roy getting mortally wounded in it.

Come to think of it: Roy, Claudia and Skull 001, the hidden triangle?

[VFTF1]

In both DYRL and in the show, Max either leaves his wingmen or the primary mission goal in order to go after kills.

Wow. Good point Eugimon. Never looked at it that way - but yeah.

Pete