Rank your Macross pilots

[Vic Mancini]

I disagree with the popular opinion that Isamu was a much better pilot than Guld or that the YF-21 was a far superior aircraft than the YF-19.

As I've discussed in other mac+ related threads, there is evidence to suggest that the Omega team was losing ground to the Alpha team and the 19 was pulling ahead in the testing. If the cause of this was simply Isamu being so much better than Guld in natural talent that it circumvented the technological superiority of the YF-21, then UN Spacey would clearly see that the 21 was still the superior aircraft deserving of the military contract even though it was falling behind in the testing. That was never indicated in the anime. The anime just showed the 19 winning.

Just because something is more cutting edge in a technological sense doesn't necessarily mean it performs better. Sometimes traditional technology works best and cutting edge experimental interfaces don't yield the increase in results that you'd expect.

[SkullLeaderVF-X]

It would kinda make sense that to become a test pilot for the YF-21, you'd have to prove your stuff in pretty much any previous VF wouldn't it? The reason that Guld's scores were lower than Isamu's at times was because he always did everything "by the book" - which is what test flying is all about. Do maneuver X at speed A and see what happens; next do it again at speed B and see what happens; and again at speed C, etc. Pretty monotonous until the sh*t hits the fan - then you have to prove you're the best by staying alive and being willing to show up for work the next day. Isamu threw the rule-book out the door at every opportunity - luck was his skill... In combat the two were pretty closely matched, otherwise Isamu would have been able to get rid of him much faster.

Exactly. Isamu is a great pilot who did things his way.Guld was by the books. I honestly think, Isamu would have died/got shot down if he stayed or told Guld to go help Myung while he fought the ghost.

[Gubaba]

Exactly. Isamu is a great pilot who did things his way.

That's an awfully polite way of putting it...batsh*t insane is how I'd say it (not that that's necessarily a bad thing, mind you...)

Me, I think that both Shinsei Industries and General Galaxy knew what they were doing when they hired their respective pilots, so I assume that both Isamu and Guld were on relatively equal footing...and that both were truly first class pilots.

[SkullLeaderVF-X]

That's an awfully polite way of putting it...batsh*t insane is how I'd say it (not that that's necessarily a bad thing, mind you...)

Me, I think that both Shinsei Industries and General Galaxy knew what they were doing when they hired their respective pilots, so I assume that both Isamu and Guld were on relatively equal footing...and that both were truly first class pilots.

Well I was trying to be polite. I mean Isamu was like a "Riggs" to Guld's 'Murtuagh" . Hew was crazy, you saw what he did to enter earth during the Sharon Apple concert!

[Mr March]

I disagree with the popular opinion that Isamu was a much better pilot than Guld or that the YF-21 was a far superior aircraft than the YF-19.

As I've discussed in other mac+ related threads, there is evidence to suggest that the Omega team was losing ground to the Alpha team and the 19 was pulling ahead in the testing. If the cause of this was simply Isamu being so much better than Guld in natural talent that it circumvented the technological superiority of the YF-21, then UN Spacey would clearly see that the 21 was still the superior aircraft deserving of the military contract even though it was falling behind in the testing. That was never indicated in the anime. The anime just showed the 19 winning.

Just because something is more cutting edge in a technological sense doesn't necessarily mean it performs better. Sometimes traditional technology works best and cutting edge experimental interfaces don't yield the increase in results that you'd expect.

That's a very clever evaluation. I can see where you're coming from. I think the reason the question of superiority was kept up in the air was in homage to the real world YF-22/YF-23 competition and likely because Kawamori loved both designs and utilized them again in Macross 7.

Digressing, I agree that Isamu and Guld were very close in skill. They obviously had different approaches to piloting, but it seems clear the two were definitely in the same league.

[oneiros]

i don't think that isamu, and guld are better than roy because if we start thinking a little well

if you talk about new technologies and prototypes well roy was part of the test pilots of the

very first VF's and that is even harder because everything about them was new and also roy

had more experience than both of them because roy was already a veteran combat pilot even

before the first VF's, also we really don't know how good was guld because we only see him in

a very advance VF that he was piloting using his mind which is something similar to what happens

wih brera of course both of them have to be very good to be entrusted with those kind of machines

Also i don't think that hikaru was better than roy because while roy was never shot down hikaru was

and of course max is the best pilot he was simply a genius he could do amazing things and he

wasn't as reckless as other pilots he was always in control, alto is good but he is very young so i

don't think he is in his prime yet and ozma is already in his prime and he is not as good as roy or

isamu

[RedWolf]

Well since in fanfic I have a good number of aces on the good side I think having some bad guy aces should even things a little.

Quamzin Kravshera piloting a Zentradi Variable Glaug

Timoshie Daldanton piloting a Fz-150 Feios Valkyrie

Nora Polyansky and D.D. Ivanov in modernized SV-51 with thermonuclear reaction engines.

Wait aren't these guys already dead?

Let us say a certain arms dealer has some sophisticated cloning technology.

[Gubaba]

Well since in fanfic I have a good number of aces on the good side I think having some bad guy aces should even things a little.

Quamzin Kravshera piloting a Zentradi Variable Glaug

But...would Quamzin allow himself to be micronized...?

But yeah...why isn't he on anyone's list? He's clearly a great pilot.

And...nice pics. I like DD's and Nora's especially.

Edited September 6, 2008 by Gubaba

[RedWolf]

But...would Quamzin allow himself to be micronized...?

The Zentran Variable Glaug was built for Zentradi sized pilots.

A giant size 6 year old Moaramia Jifon piloted a Variable Glaug till she had a dog fight and got shot down by the Jenius couple.

Suffice to say Max already had Millia as a wife and Millia wanted more children... Lets just say Komilia got herself new younger sister out of nowhere.

UN Spacy reversed engineered the Variable Glaug and built a miclon friendly version of their own. They even built a unmaned version of the Variable Glaug, the Neo Glaug.

UN Spacy Variable Glaug

Neo Glaug

That is why I feel so sorry for Temzin when he had his rebellion. A Quadralunn-Rea? A girl's battle suit? For shame.

They already had included the Koenig Monster why not the Variable Glaug? (Yes I know it is about the budget but still...)

[Gubaba]

The Zentran Variable Glaug was built for Zentradi sized pilots.

Really? Never having played the game or investigated the mecha, I didn't know that...

Damn, that thing must be frickin' HUGE!

[RedWolf]

Really? Never having played the game or investigated the mecha, I didn't know that...

Damn, that thing must be frickin' HUGE!

It's a Glaug like the original Glaug only that it has been turned to a VF like what they did to the Monster.

Only that rebel Zentradi had the sense to marry the two concepts.

The original Glaug, Zentradi Variable Glaug and UN Spacy Variable Glaug.

[VF-25 Messiah]

So wait the green one on the left is for a zent sized pilots while the right one is for miclone sized pilots? The scale doesn't add up. The green one has to be a lot larger than the other? Or did i just misunderstand something?

[RedWolf]

So wait the green one on the left is for a zent sized pilots while the right one is for miclone sized pilots? The scale doesn't add up. The green one has to be a lot larger than the other? Or did i just misunderstand something?

Macross M3 Intro

The green one were used by Zentradi insurgents.

But UN Spacy also had a original VF for Zentran pilots, the VA-14.

VA-14

Type: Variable fighter-attack craft for Zentadi pilots.

Equipment Type: Variable Vehicles

Manufacturer: General Galaxy/Mikoyan

Government: U.N.

Customers: UNS, including Macross 05 fleet.

Development began around 2025 on the VA-14 as a variable fighter-attack craft for Zentradi pilots. The VA-14 has a larger frame compared to the VF-14, but the two units share the basic structure and transformation system. It also has comparatively heavier armor and weaponry, but because the engine thrust was increased along with wings being completely redesigned, it has higher combat maneuverability within the atmosphere. Mass production began around 2030 as the main attack craft primarily for Zentradi colony planets and fleets. Many are still in service.

Of course we've never seen the VA-14 on screen or paper but according to Shoji Kawamori it is of the same lineage as the VF-14 Vampire.

[tomstrife]

I'd have to agree with some of the other posters putting Hikaru at the very top of the list, above Max.

Watching Robotech as a kid about 300 times, then rewatching Macross as a college student, you see that Hikaru always has to watch over the people he has had in his command. Even the first time he was paired with Max and Kakizaki, he had to save Kakizaki while Max had just went off rogue and killed whatever he wanted. Hikaru always picked the difficult decision and had to always complete objectives. Even when he was a novice pilot, he managed to end a duel with Kamjin in a draw. Kamjin, who had been battling for years and years nearly lost to this novice.

Later in the series, Max has never really had any worries about ever leading a squad or having to watch fledglings. Hikaru always has someone to worry about and always has some emo problem, thus his emotions always diminish his flying abilities.

Max gets to fly with the best zentradi pilot, and thus he always has a good partner by his side. Hikaru? He keeps having to bail out those horrible pilots (like those ones who couldnt even take out regular battlepods when earth was rebuilt).

But in the very final episode when we see that he had lost everything, he lets go of all his emotions and we truly find his real skill. I don't even think Max in his prime would have beaten Hikaru at this moment.

Not only is Hikaru probably the best tactician and leader, he is the best damn fighter pilot, ever.

(going by "- If a character's pilot skills develop over time, let's use the "peak" of his battle skills as our reference (but that "peak" has to be actually animated)")

Edited September 8, 2008 by tomstrife

[DeeBot]

Not only is Hikaru probably the best tactician and leader, he is the best damn fighter pilot, ever.

(going by "- If a character's pilot skills develop over time, let's use the "peak" of his battle skills as our reference (but that "peak" has to be actually animated)")

I have to take exception to this, although I suppose it depends on how you judge "best damn fighter pilot." In the time frame of the original series, I think Hikaru certainly displayed more leadership talent than Max. And yes, we know Hikaru was a gifted pilot from his air circus days, and definitely competent enough to be Skull 1.

Still, I don't think he was the "best ever." Moreover, I think that's sorta missing the point of the Hikaru-Max dynamic. Hikaru didn't need to be the greatest fighter pilot ever; he could willingly let Max have that role. He was a big enough person that he didn't let himself get too hung up on the fact that he wasn't the biggest hotshot after all. When he saw a superior talent, he recognized it and gave it space to thrive.

This is all part of him being a true leader, what qualified him for the command seat instead of Max or anyone else. If you try to insist that he was a better fighter pilot than Max, but was just too busy to show it, I think you end up diminishing both of their characters. Moreover, I just don't think the series supports that conclusion.

[Sulendil Ang]

... Besides the Holy Froating Head had already declared that Max is indeed in a different class than anyone else, so trying to argue that Max is lousier than Hikaru is probably getting you to nowhere.

After all, how can fight someone whose surname is Jenius?

[sharky]

I wouldn't put Alto that high up, at least not yet. IMO he's just about on par or slightly below Ozma. Also, Brera ma have hax, but he's shown that he can out-dogfight Alto as long as the princess doesn't get the jump on him.

Also, since we're talking about major characters, bottom of the list would be, not Kakizaki but Sheryl Nome.

If you going to put Sheryl Nome you might as well throw in Sara Nome. Remember she piloted the Birdman and fought effectively. No moves though, just good targeting skills and brute force weapons. Or, maybe it wasn't her but the Birdman targeting. I just remember Sara pointing to everything and saying "Kadun".

[Fade Rathnik]

... Besides the Holy Froating Head had already declared that Max is indeed in a different class than anyone else, so trying to argue that Max is lousier than Hikaru is probably getting you to nowhere.

After all, how can fight someone whose surname is Jenius?

I would say without any doubt that Max was a virtuoso in a Valk but how would he handle the confines of a fixed wing aircraft? I think there Hikaru would have very solid footing on Max. Different class maybe but SK also made it clear that Hikaru was in a different class of fixed wing pilots himself(in the TV ver). They were 2 of the best of the best 3 in their time. Roy/Milia sharing the 3rd spot. I'm with the camp that view Hikaru as being a little unappreciated regarding his pure skill as a pilot. Roy was often in awe at how fast he adapted and how good he actually was. A lot of that I'd imagine also came from the fact that he survived. Granted Roy was quite amazed with Max but Max started in a Valk as far as we know and that has a whole realm of maneuvers that were never conceivable in a fixed wing aircraft. Hell the VF-1 Fighter mode only could likely pull the same stuff the F-22 can do on top of out running it.

[dreamweaver13]

with the dogfight in ep 22, anyone care to revisit their rankings/comparison between Alto and Ozma? In my OP list, i placed Ozma 2 spaces above Alto... but by now i think that they're neck and neck, with alto probably getting the upper hand by the end of the series.

Edited September 9, 2008 by dreamweaver13

[dreamweaver13]

I would say without any doubt that Max was a virtuoso in a Valk but how would he handle the confines of a fixed wing aircraft? I think there Hikaru would have very solid footing on Max. Different class maybe but SK also made it clear that Hikaru was in a different class of fixed wing pilots himself(in the TV ver). They were 2 of the best of the best 3 in their time. Roy/Milia sharing the 3rd spot. I'm with the camp that view Hikaru as being a little unappreciated regarding his pure skill as a pilot. Roy was often in awe at how fast he adapted and how good he actually was. A lot of that I'd imagine also came from the fact that he survived. Granted Roy was quite amazed with Max but Max started in a Valk as far as we know and that has a whole realm of maneuvers that were never conceivable in a fixed wing aircraft. Hell the VF-1 Fighter mode only could likely pull the same stuff the F-22 can do on top of out running it.

Ok, just a thought.

If it's true that "luck" is a skill, as isamu said, then who is the most skilled pilot when it comes to "luck"?

I think in this regard, Hikaru is at the top. way way up top. observe:

Hikaru:

- gets into a full blown aerial battle with no previous traning, and doesn't die.

- runs into friendly fire (off-timed daedelus attack) and comes out of it with a mere concussion

- was INSIDE a zentraedi ship when it was PWNED by the daedelus attack and manages to get away

- blasted with several warheads during his face-off with the 3 spies (during miss macross) and lives to attack

- gets stuck in a self-destructing zentraedi vessel (same episode) and is merely knocked unconscious

- goes toe to toe with a pissed-off britai and lives to tell the tale

- again, gets a full-on hit from a couple of warheads during SW1, and ends up alive and in earth orbit (and just in time to save his future wife)

man, you just can't KILL the guy!

[Gubaba]

Ok, just a thought.

If it's true that "luck" is a skill, as isamu said, then who is the most skilled pilot when it comes to "luck"?

I think in this regard, Hikaru is at the top. way way up top. observe:

Hikaru:

- gets into a full blown aerial battle with no previous traning, and doesn't die.

- runs into friendly fire (off-timed daedelus attack) and comes out of it with a mere concussion

- was INSIDE a zentraedi ship when it was PWNED by the daedelus attack and manages to get away

- blasted with several warheads during his face-off with the 3 spies (during miss macross) and lives to attack

- gets stuck in a self-destructing zentraedi vessel (same episode) and is merely knocked unconscious

- goes toe to toe with a pissed-off britai and lives to tell the tale

- again, gets a full-on hit from a couple of warheads during SW1, and ends up alive and in earth orbit (and just in time to save his future wife)

man, you just can't KILL the guy!

Hmmm...maybe Basara really IS Hikaru's illegitimate son, and inherited his invincibility genes...

[RedWolf]

Hmmm...maybe Basara really IS Hikaru's illegitimate son, and inherited his invincibility genes...

Nah I'm more inclined to think Basara is a product of a secret genetic engineering experiment. Which explains why Basara didn't have a family or clear origins.

Either a genetic combination of Hikaru Ichijyo and Minmay or Hikaru Ichijyo and Sara Nome. With the blood Dr. Hasford took. Which explains why Basara is Anima Spiritia.

Take Aegis Focker for instance. He's blond and Focker like Roy. What are the chances in that?

Which makes me think there was a clandestine program hidden in Earth's repopulation effort.

Oh yeah the pilot in VFX is a clone of Hikaru! It's a conspiracy I tell you! *gets shot by a sniper*

Edited September 10, 2008 by RedWolf

[DeeBot]

Roy was given a top secret, experimental High Energy-Reflecting Object shield during his days as a test pilot. He later passed it on to Hikaru. Which explains how Roy got pineapple saladed, and Hikaru survived the series.

That is, until he bequeathed the shield to a moody young boy right before departing for the center of the galaxy...

[Xeros]

jajajajaja

that's could be summarized in Plot Armor xD

[505thAirborne]

Ok, just a thought.

If it's true that "luck" is a skill, as isamu said, then who is the most skilled pilot when it comes to "luck"?

I think in this regard, Hikaru is at the top. way way up top. observe:

Hikaru:

- gets into a full blown aerial battle with no previous traning, and doesn't die.

- runs into friendly fire (off-timed daedelus attack) and comes out of it with a mere concussion

- was INSIDE a zentraedi ship when it was PWNED by the daedelus attack and manages to get away

- blasted with several warheads during his face-off with the 3 spies (during miss macross) and lives to attack

- gets stuck in a self-destructing zentraedi vessel (same episode) and is merely knocked unconscious

- goes toe to toe with a pissed-off britai and lives to tell the tale

- again, gets a full-on hit from a couple of warheads during SW1, and ends up alive and in earth orbit (and just in time to save his future wife)

man, you just can't KILL the guy!

I was gonna say a few good things about Hikaru, but you put best!! Max & Roy were Legends, But Ichijo was truly a lucky bad ass!!

[dreamweaver13]

I was gonna say a few good things about Hikaru, but you put best!! Max & Roy were Legends, But Ichijo was truly a lucky bad ass!!

Yeah! and we're not even mentioning his luck with women yet! wtf luck genes!!!

[dreamweaver13]

Tsk, tsk, i think Alto will have to go down a notch below Brera after this ep...

[Gubaba]

Tsk, tsk, i think Alto will have to go down a notch below Brera after this ep...

Well...let's face it, Alto was always a little outclassed by Brera, in VFs or not. But I'm not sure it's an entirely fair comparison, for obvious reasons...

[dreamweaver13]

Well...let's face it, Alto was always a little outclassed by Brera, in VFs or not. But I'm not sure it's an entirely fair comparison, for obvious reasons...

yeah, I've always thought that brera has some unfair advantages, but that Alto is naturally the better pilot. but to justify that, i would have expected alto to defy those advantages and beat brera at least once.

but so far alto's been beaten 3 times, so chances of that are dimming. then again, there's still one episode.

[Gubaba]

yeah, I've always thought that brera has some unfair advantages, but that Alto is naturally the better pilot. but to justify that, i would have expected alto to defy those advantages and beat brera at least once.

but so far alto's been beaten 3 times, so chances of that are dimming. then again, there's still one episode.

And all chances are gone, since

Alto's dead,

isn't he...?

......

...whaddya mean, "No"?

[dreamweaver13]

And all chances are gone, since

Alto's dead,

isn't he...?

......

...whaddya mean, "No"?

Nnooooo!!!

Or as Sheryl screamed, "Altoooooooooooo!!!!"

[seph_88]

Sorry to exhume this topic, but i noticed that most of you place ozma above alto. However in the fight where alto is commanded to take out the sms pirates, he appears in an inferior vf-17 against the vf-25s, and ends it with a draw against ozma both getting a hit on each other, and tbh that says to me that if they were both in equal craft, alto would be better than ozma. However no doubt that brera is better than both.

You could make this topic into a card game, since some pilots may not have the skill like Max, but have better team skills that are overlooked like Hikaru and Roy.

Also in the day as mentioned earlier Roy as a test pilot had to take on more risks than maybe Isamu due to untested theories. To Isamu, transforming jet fighters was nothing new, but to Roy that phrase may have sounded completely ridiculous and thus taking on that risk for testing and verifying the machine's ability for data aswell as looking after your crew took some skills and guts/bravery.

Also I'd agree with some previous comments that Isamu is slightly better than Guld, given the craft they were duking out with each other the when yf-21 was technologically better.

Some were saying that Guld only required willpower to take out the ghost. It requires a high level of concentration aswell as willpower and objective focus since he was also having his body crushed against forces, which a lot of pilots need to train up resistance for anyway and that goes towards being a good pilot in the first place. If anything doing this whilest knowing how twitchy the BDS was would put Guld quite high up in the list.

Edited January 22, 2009 by seph_88

[Gubaba]

Sorry to exhume this topic, but i noticed that most of you place ozma above alto. However in the fight where alto is commanded to take out the sms pirates, he appears in an inferior vf-17 against the vf-25s, and ends it with a draw against ozma both getting a hit on each other, and tbh that says to me that if they were both in equal craft, alto would be better than ozma. However no doubt that brera is better than both.

Well...yeah, but bear in mind that this poll started well before the series ended, and thus all of the ranking was done before that episode aired. By the time the series ended, we had more or less moved on to other things, like making up "clues" that showed which girl Alto liked more.

[seph_88]

Still i think there should be an ***Official Macross World Pilot Ranking***starsstarstarexclaimation Table, never leave loose ends open, that's what i say.

Plus it's obvious, alto would love a bit of fun with sheryl on the side whilest serioiusly going out with ranka in the long run.

[SchizophrenicMC]

Roy was given a top secret, experimental High Energy-Reflecting Object shield during his days as a test pilot. He later passed it on to Hikaru. Which explains how Roy got pineapple saladed, and Hikaru survived the series.

That is, until he bequeathed the shield to a moody young boy right before departing for the center of the galaxy...

Brings a new meaning to "I need a HERO!"