tech question: Zent resizing chamber

[rapierdragon]

Here's a good question someone with one of the RPG manuals might be able to answer for me.

The resizing chamber ("micronization chamber" or whatever you call it).

How long does it take for a Zentraedi to go from macron to micron or vice-versa?

(trying to get info for an RPG me and a few friends are doing here).

Cause in original macross it seems like it took a day, if not a good 6 to 12 hours, for one to down-size or be sized back up to full-size. (Trying to remember how long it took for the three zentraedi spies to be shrunk down so they could go spy within the SDF-Macross).

Seems the tech has been seriously updated by Macross Frontier (some 45 years later). Klan Klan seems to go from full size to micron in something like under an hour to as short as under little (no joke intended) as two minutes.

What about an "emergency reverse" feature? Say a Zentraedi gets in and is getting reduced to micronian size, and there like 10% switched down, when suddenly the ship comes under attack. Would they be stuck finishing down-sizing and then have to macro back up (leaving them out of the battle) or could some technician hit a reverse button and get them back to full macro size soon enough for them to possibly get out into battle? Or say they wanted to save the warrior within the chamber but needed them out sooner than planned cause there was a severe need to conserve power?

Frontier References for Klan Klan's sizing:

Like she's macro when she's out testing Alto (episode 2? 4? I forget) but then like later that same evening she's chibi when she shows up at the restaurant with her Pixie Squad... which has to be like 2 to 3 hours later cause the Miss Frontier contest was on when Alto left to go fight but the contest is already over by the time they meet in the restaurant (Alto: "who let the kid in here?" Klan: "I am not a kid! I am Captain Klan Klan!" Surprised Alto: "Klan?" Michel: "Klan's genetics are complex! For some reason she ends up like this whenever she turns into a micronian.")

I mean look at episode, uh, I forgot the number... the one where Michel's sniping ability was in question... it shows her in the chamber and you hear her thinking about him (cause he went out and didn't return) and then in like 10 seconds she's gone from small to big. (though that fast a change may have just been to speed the story along and suggest more time had passed).

[RedWolf]

Well as Mikhail said about Luca's company. They make scary things.

LAI is also the manufacturer of the miclone chambers in Frontier.

From Variable Fighters to dislocation by-passing fold boosters to freaking dimension eaters.

If they didn't make such a canon fodder fighters based on the YF-24 then I'd buy from them than Shinsei Industry or Galaxy General.

Look at what Macross Galaxy did to VF-27 that is also based on the YF-24. A kickass fighter.

[theplasticwerks]

I'm glad all these Zent topics have been popping up, because I actually had a burning question that fits in here.

What cellular level do macronized Zentradi exist at? Are their cells actually enlarged to 5x-6x their usual size (albeit still too small for the naked eye to see), or are macronization pods like Photoshop where it guesses at the appropriate filler "pixels" and simply adds them in? Or rather, since their are in their natural state when macronized, what happens to their cells when micronized? Do their cells simply shrink to 2 µm (conjectural number based on typical cell size) or, again with the Photoshop analogy, is information removed (which, in an extreme example, might explain Klan )?

EDIT: Perhaps the Photoshop analogy might not work. We don't get distorted Zents after a few cycles of macronization...

Edited August 18, 2008 by theplasticwerks

[RF-26AAC]

I'm glad all these Zent topics have been popping up, because I actually had a burning question that fits in here.

What cellular level do macronized Zentradi exist at? Are their cells actually enlarged to 5x-6x their usual size (albeit still too small for the naked eye to see), or are macronization pods like Photoshop where it guesses at the appropriate filler "pixels" and simply adds them in? Or rather, since their are in their natural state when macronized, what happens to their cells when micronized? Do their cells simply shrink to 2 µm (conjectural number based on typical cell size) or, again with the Photoshop analogy, is information removed (which, in an extreme example, might explain Klan )?

EDIT: Perhaps the Photoshop analogy might not work. We don't get distorted Zents after a few cycles of macronization...

About that-- given how Zentran macronize, since their brain is then 5x larger, shouldn't they be SMARTER than micronians, too? o_O

[Duke Togo]

Here's a good question someone with one of the RPG manuals might be able to answer for me.

The RPG manuals are little more than fanfiction.

[rapierdragon]

About that-- given how Zentran macronize, since their brain is then 5x larger, shouldn't they be SMARTER than micronians, too? o_O

Well atomically you can't just take a hydrogen atom and pull the electron into a 5x orbit (cause that much of a distance difference would mean the magnetic property of the protron/electron wouldn't be strong enough to keep it in orbit, so the electron would go shooting away).

And I highly doubt they can magically make the proton 5x larger and the electron 5x larger and so on. (cause again then their magnetic properties would be magnified too in all likelihood.) Even if you did you'd have to recalculate teh proper distances for the electron orbital shells for various atoms and such, and any mistake would rapidly turn a zentraedi into a living pile of radioactive material which would either rapidly break down and/or die.

So I'd guess, since we know they are heavier when they are macro-size, that additional atoms are added into them as a filler. I can't really imagine individual cells being magnified to 5x normal size, but as to whether they actually use those atoms or those atoms are merely used as spacing and linkage blocks around other cells, well, no idea there either. They don't seem 5x smarter, so obviously they don't really have 5x the brain-cells, which suggests that eiher the cells themselves are bigger or that two adjacent cells are moved apart and then a bunch of "spacing" cells are placed between them, kind of like putting extra support-spans into a bridge to extend it.

AB

CD

wold turn into (+ being the "spacing cells", some active if in the lungs/heart etc, others more like non-active fat cells or bone-tissue if in the brain or something)

A++B

++++

++++

C++D

So when a Zentraedi down-sizes all that extra matter/mass must be removed and stored somewhere, and then when they up-size back up they have it re-added to them. (its possible rather than store it as physical matter in like a pool that the machine stores it as energy, but I doubt it would be stored as energy as the usual e=mc^2 would apply, so even a small leak in energy storage would be like a big nuke going off.)

But that's all OFF-TOPIC from what I asked.

I'm asking, when Klan Klan (or another Frontier-era Zent) gets into the machine, how long till she comes back out?

-Is it like 50 seconds?

-2 to 5 minutes?

-15 minutes? 30 minutes? 60 minutes?

-90 minutes?

-2 or 3 hours?

[Master Dex]

Actually people who are geniuses (like Einstein) actually are found to have smaller brains because there are more wrinkles, a sign they were thinking a lot and working their mind. When they opened Einstein's head after he died people though the brain would be huge but it was actually smaller than the average brain.

[Morpheus]

Larger brain for storing p***, just take a look at Exedore, he got XXXXXL size head, I bet he decided that way after seeing the p*** shop in Macross

I wonder if there's any micloning/macroning accident, like only half of your body is rebuilt (like the transporter freak accident from ST or spaceballs)

[RedWolf]

Here is something interesting from the Compendium.

November 2030

* Armed revolt by the giant Zentradi living on Earth. The Second Defensive Battle of Macross City. Hereafter, giant Zentradi are prohibited from living on Earth.

It seems to me that Macross Frontier is a fleet that gives the option to macronize and miclonize since you can't be both on Earth's surface.

Giant Zentradi are probably allowed on the Moon and the Factory satellite.

Howard Glass personal opinion not-with-standing appears to have created platform for peaceful harmony between miclones and giant and ecological friendliness.

Typical PC politician but he lets loose a little when it comes to giant bugs.

Glass is a practical man why fight when you can outrun them? Or so they thought. Damn Grace.

Though doesn't explain from what boonies giant Vividas first saw Basara.

Basara's first attempt to rock a Meltran?

Edited August 19, 2008 by RedWolf

[thegunny]

It takes about as long as the script writers want it to take.

Go get some sunlight you lot

[Shaka_Z]

I've posited elsewhere that miclone chambers probably work in a similar fashion to jump-clones in EvE Online, with the exception that the body being cloned from is likely destroyed in the process, and the range of the consciousness transfer is limited to the chamber itself. I do beleive however that eventually macross tech will overcome those issues eventually, since we humans are somewhat more inventive than the zentraedi were.

[Vinnie]

Exsedol Folmo

From Macross Compendium

Zentradi records staff officer

Exsedol served as a records staff officer under Vrlitwhai Kridanik during Space War I. After Space War I, he became an advisor for the new U.N. government. He later joined the bridge crew of the New Macross 7 fleet's Battle 7 carrier to advise Captain Maximilian Jenius and observe. Although he was Micloned at one time, he purportedly returned to his former Zentradi size and realtered his body makeup for fear of losing his cerebral capacity and memories.

Seems to me that the macronization process would include more cells rather than larger cells because of this.

Edit: And to address the OP's question on time. Much like whatever is convinient for the director, so too should it be for the GM. If you need it to work faster or slower to fit your needs. You can address it as being the latest tech or an old PC relic. If you need it variable, you can accomodate with either broken technology "Sure is working fast today. I guess all it takes is hitting it with a wrench a few times" or a number of other plot devices from operator skill to material/energy rationing. I believe that's the secret to good GMing, coming up with interesting reasons why something works the way it does rather than going by hard and fast stats.

Edited August 19, 2008 by Vinnie

[theplasticwerks]

...So it IS like resizing in Photoshop!

Do ya think everyone has their own macro/micro chamber (this seems to be the case aboard the Quarter) to reduce "contamination" or to preserve cellular matter (for lack of a better term)?

Edited August 19, 2008 by theplasticwerks

[rapierdragon]

-quoted from Shaka_Z-

I've posited elsewhere that miclone chambers probably work in a similar fashion to jump-clones in EvE Online, with the exception that the body being cloned from is likely destroyed in the process, and the range of the consciousness transfer is limited to the chamber itself. I do beleive however that eventually macross tech will overcome those issues eventually, since we humans are somewhat more inventive than the zentraedi were.

-end quote-

Consciousness would be limited to the chamber, yeah, but at some point during the transfer from small to big (or vice-versa) I'd guess the brain would be shut-down to allow for safety. No idea if they'd just use some kind of stasis field or if it would just be like falling asleep for a few minutes into a dreamless sleep. Stasis would be my guess after reviewing teh scene where Klan changed size while thinking about Michel (in the ep where his sniping ability is questioned).

Yeah, they had something like that in one of the more sci-fi episodes of The Outer Limits (2002 or so) where instead everyone physically travelling the whole way they "sent robot ships" and would put a body into stasis to scan it and use tachyon-communications or some such to beam the scan info to its destination where it was rebuilt.

Or as they say in the DragonTails Online (comic): "What's teh difference between a transporter and a (other)" and the smart one says "One converts you into energy and PHYSICALLY SENDS YOU there to be turned back into matter. The other essentially makes a scan of you to sends non-living data to build a new you over therE. The former is plenty safe as its like flying there, the latter is more like an INCINERATOR."

-quoted from 'theplasticwerks'-

...So it IS like resizing in Photoshop!

Do ya think everyone has their own macro/micro chamber (this seems to be the case aboard the Quarter) to reduce "contamination" or to preserve cellular matter (for lack of a better term)?

-end quote-

Well in the few scenes where we see them it looks like they're not far from the SMS veritech parking bays and Q-Rea parking bays (which makes sense... no point having macro zent's walking halfway around island-1 just to park their war machines).

Looks like 4 or 5 machines together in one row along the wall, and I'd guess there would be a similar row along the opposite wall (which we don't really see from the camera angle overlooking the raised ledge/platform where Alto was standing during that chat with Klan where she told him bout Michel's sis.

In all chance they share the chambers with some kind of tissue-destroying radiation or cleaning-fluid-cycle being used after the chamber has been emptied out to clean it of any leftover microbes/loose-hair/whatnot.

That or they only have the one row of machines and the Q-Rea parking area is along the opposite wall for quick asscess. I mean if operation time was under 10 minutes it would be nice and handy for the Pixie's to get from the chambers to their mecha really quickly. I STRONGLY DOUBT THIS THOUGH as despite the ease of access it wouldn't take much more than a damaged mecha, injured pilot, or what not to overshoot during landing or accidently crash into a resizign chamber (which would kill anyone within it if it were damaged that badly during use).

---overall imagined process---

(regardless of upsizing or downsizing)

(1) -several seconds- person enters chamber (naked it woud appear). If they have an artificial arm/eye/etc it must be removed prior to entry as the chamber can only upsize/downsize ORGANIC matter. (possible tech upgrades due in future?)

(2) -several minutes- both chambers fill with liquid (some kind of breatheable stuff like what babies breathe while in their mother's womb)

(3) -several seconds- pre-transfer security checks, integrity checks, system checks, anti-contamination checks

(4) -several seconds or less- contents of the "occupied" chamber are placed into stasis/sleep/whatever (to prevent thrashing around or movement or brain-damage)

(4b) -several seconds- possible "healing" cycle (scrapes/bruises only... missing eyes/limbs/etc are not replaced)

(possible tech upgrades due in future? perhaps a left-arm could be copied and reversed to replace a missing right arm?)

(5) -several seconds in Macross Frontier- high-speed scans via (techno-babble) occur to get a quantum-level scan of the person within (this step possibly took several dozen minutes originally back during/before Space War 1)

(5 note) in all likelihood this is the step where Klan's problem occurs when downsizing... some kind of "age" gene must partially misread like a fragmented file or crosslinked file on a computer... then when upsizing the the gene is incorrectly read again, however this time the error in reading it somehow translates back into it being read correctly... sort of a case where two wrongs make a right... kind of like if you flip a "b" it turns into a "d", and if you flip a "d" it turns back into a "b" (or you can rotate it around... p > d > p ... the error somehow self-corrects)

(6) -several seconds in Macross Frontier- transfer of particles and addition/subtraction of additional matter (depending on if upsizing or downsizing) (this step possibly took 30 minutes to 12 hours back during/before Space War 1)

(7) -several seconds- post-transfer checks are run (similar to step 3, except with checks for transfer errors to be corrected also being done)

( -several seconds or less- person within chamber is taken out of stasis (or regains consciousness / wakes up from sleep)

(9) -30 to 120 seconds or so- chamber is emptied, possible "rinse" and/or "drying" cycles occurs

(10) -several seconds- chamber opens, person gets out, closes door behind them

(11) after confirming that the chamber is vacated the computer runs a rapid "cleaning" cycle to remove any bio-residue (loose hairs, dead skin cells, sweat, etc). Chamber is then ready for next person to use it.

[Duke Togo]

SMS veritech parking bays

Veritech, indeed! Anywho, here we have another example of tech in Macross that Kawamori and company have given little to no thought about. Don't ever expect to see any consistency within each series, let alone the entire franchise.

[akt_m]

I prefer the truth: "anime magic". The cientific logic of "resizing atoms or cells" seems too dangerous for daily use. And even if they had the tech to do it safetily wouldn't it be too far advanced when compared to rest of the tech??? If they could do it then i guess nobody would have to age if they didn't want.

Edited August 19, 2008 by akt_m

[Morpheus]

I prefer the truth: "anime magic". The cientific logic of "resizing atoms or cells" seems too dangerous for daily use. And even if they had the tech to do it safetily wouldn't it be too far advanced when compared to rest of the tech??? If they could do it then i guess nobody would have to age if they didn't want.

He he, he's writing for an RPG so I guess its kinda fine. At least I can see little threat to the catgirls.

If they can resize organics, they must also capable of resizing non-organic (less complex than organics), which mean all the regults could be fabricated from 1/144 toyline

OOT

Regarding resizing atom/cell, there's a good fiction based on Homeworld universe on how Phased_disassembler_array works by arranging atoms

[Shaka_Z]

I prefer the truth: "anime magic". The cientific logic of "resizing atoms or cells" seems too dangerous for daily use. And even if they had the tech to do it safely wouldn't it be too far advanced when compared to rest of the tech??? If they could do it then i guess nobody would have to age if they didn't want.

wild thing is that given the state of technology in post-SW1 macross, there really is *no* need to suffer aging at all - at least the problems of aging itself. I would expect that the physical deterioration caused directly by aging would be treatable or outright cured by then, with people aging much more slowly if at all. this would likely mean that physical problems that accumulate over time would be due more to how the individual treats their bod, and not due to a built-in expiration date. it should be noted that meltrandi for example age *extremely* well, to the extent that if millia jenius is still alive and kicking in 2059, she is probably still fully able to have kids - and looks hot enough for most guys to want to try ^^.

[sucker4meltrans]

ah but you forget in macross universe your an old lady by 19 and no one would want you. (poor Misa)

but yes meltrans do age really well.

Edited August 19, 2008 by sucker4meltrans

[David Hingtgen]

And we still don't know exactly how micloned Meltrans age---Milia's the first, and is basically "an experiment". I wouldn't be surprised if she shows up looking exactly the same as she did in M7.

How old do Zentradi live? Britai was very old IIRC. But he's "special" and not your typical Zentradi. Milia's Meltran, for starters, and is presumably "more special than average, but not as special as Britai/Laplamiz".

[Beltane70]

Actually, Macross source material lists Britai as being 35. Of course, that could just be the age of that particular body.

[RedWolf]

And Exsedol calls himself an old man. Well he did have bridge hole on Battle 7 to peek at bridge bunnies.

He enjoys girls in bikini during the Jamming Bird audition.

Bet he's an avid watcher of the Miss Macross of every Macross fleet.

[sucker4meltrans]

well lets assume you have different types of of zentradi clones for the jobs they fill. commander and archivist types would need to have long lives or battlefield experience would be lost. Milia might be an ace because she was built that way. then we have small group commanders like Quamzin and Temjin they might have had reckless disspositions because they were made to be bold. it also looks like physical size is programmed into them based on their job. the higher in rank the bigger you are. archivists are the exception because they are the smart deviant ones so they are made smaller to keep them in check.

[RedWolf]

What about Vividas? When she miclonized she's still somewhat a giantess.

[sucker4meltrans]

Vividas might be the meltran version of britai.

[Duke Togo]

Honestly, you can probably make up just about anything you want with what you have seen. When it comes to Macross, there isn't alot of continuity when it comes to tech.

[Kronnang Dunn]

I just came with a theory for the basis of the micronization/macronization process...

Perhaps the whole process involves folding/defolding a person to Super Dimension space...

The change in size occurs when the defolding is engineered in such a way that it increases/multiplies the molecules of the body (volume/mass increase), thus making a person bigger...

That's why the Zentradi seem to disappear from a macro-chamber and appear into a micro-chamber simultaneously, instead of just changing size in the same area...

Perhaps that's why the Vajra were attracted to the Macronization chambers in Episode 20 of Frontier, since they seem to be attracted by Fold waves...

What do you think?

Edited August 27, 2008 by Kronnang Dunn

[Master Dex]

I always assumed the reason they disappeared and reappear in the Miclone chambers is because it was cloning a new and larger (or smaller) body and transferring their consciousness. Or something to that effect.

[whispo]

I think the chamber works more like this:

It get's drawn by an artist first. Then someone draws in the micronized character. then frame by frame draws them again and again, making them less visable then the first frame, while steadily drawing a macronized version of the person in the chamber, until you can't see the micronised person anymore, but only the macronized one.

..... What do you guys think ?

*sorry couldn't resist*

Still, don't expect anything like this to have even been concidered by the writers. They make it as long or as short as they need for that particular scene.

Edited August 27, 2008 by whispo

[Kronnang Dunn]

I just came with a theory for the basis of the micronization/macronization process...

Perhaps the whole process involves folding/defolding a person to Super Dimension space instantaneously...

The change in size occurs when the defolding is engineered in such a way that it increases/multiplies the molecules of the body (volume/mass increase), thus making a person bigger...

That's why the Zentradi seem to disappear from a macro-chamber and appear into a micro-chamber simultaneously, instead of just changing size in the same area...

Perhaps that's why the Vajra were attracted to the Macronization chambers in Episode 20 of Frontier, since they seem to be attracted by Fold waves...

What do you think?

Still... I totally forgot about Klan and her "loli problem"... Will think of something and post it as soon as I figure it out...

Edited August 27, 2008 by Kronnang Dunn

[Gubaba]

I think the chamber works more like this:

It get's drawn by an artist first. Then someone draws in the micronized character. then frame by frame draws them again and again, making them less visable then the first frame, while steadily drawing a macronized version of the person in the chamber, until you can't see the micronised person anymore, but only the macronized one.

..... What do you guys think ?

*sorry couldn't resist*

Still, don't expect anything like this to have even been concidered by the writers. They make it as long or as short as they need for that particular scene.

Ouch.

I mean, you're right of course, but can't you find a nicer way to crush everyone's dreams...?

[Kronnang Dunn]

Ouch.

I mean, you're right of course, but can't you find a nicer way to crush everyone's dreams...?

Hehehe... Don't worry... I believe it takes more than that to even touch years and years of anime exposure...

[Gubaba]

Hehehe... Don't worry... I believe it takes more than that to even touch years and years of anime exposure...

I dunno...I remember when I was a kid, figuring someone could make a real Valkyrie, since, after all, the toy transformed perfectly! Just make a bigger version, and you've got it!

I like to think I've come a long way since then...

[dreamweaver13]

I dunno...I remember when I was a kid, figuring someone could make a real Valkyrie, since, after all, the toy transformed perfectly! Just make a bigger version, and you've got it!

I like to think I've come a long way since then...

Well, i STILL don't see why they can't! sounds simple enough! right? .... right?