Dimension eater physics

[DeeBot]

A black hole occurs when an object of nonzero rest mass is somehow at a density so great that it literally tears a hole in the space-time fabric, causing other matter to get sucked into it like a kitchen sinkhole sucking water in when unplugged.

This is a bit simplistic (and the whole business about black holes sucking is another big misconception).

First off, a black hole is defined by its event horizon, the (3-D) surface where nothing can escape. A photon of light that hit the event horizon at a glancing angle would circle around the event horizon forever. Any photon angled slightly in, or any object traveling slower than light, would fall into the black hole.

Passing the event horizon, the laws of physics still apply as usual, but you can't back out due to the gravitational pull.

At the center of the black hole is the singularity, where the curvature goes to infinity. This is mostly a mathematical artifact of the theory (caused by division by zero, hence the term "singularity"); we have no way to know if a singularity is a real object or not. Some quantum gravity theories tend to believe that real singularities can't exist. It doesn't matter, though, because nothing past the event horizon can effect the rest of the universe.

Finally, black holes don't suck (or at least, they don't suck any more than any other kind of massive object, like the Sun or a neutron star). At a sufficient distance from a black hole, they act exactly like a Newtonian point object of the same mass. Closer in, you need to take general relativity into account, but there's still no dramatically increased sucking action. As I said, the laws of physics don't change at the event horizon, so general relativity applies almost down to the very center.

Gravitationally, the only special thing about a black hole is its density. And the only reason that matters is that the field strength can keep increasing as you get closer to it. With normal objects, you start passing through them before you get close enough for the field strength to keep shooting up. At the same distance from two objects of the same mass, density is irrelevant.

As for compressing a pineapple? Well, a bad idea, pineapples are too complicated a matter.

That was my point: Black holes are said to "have no hair". They basically have three properties: mass, charge, and angular momentum (how much "spin" they have). It doesn't matter what you put into a black hole, so compressing a pineapple down to the size of a quark is a perfectly legitimate way to go about making one.

In fact, micro black holes have already been created IRL in particle accelerators, where matter hitting each other a over 0.99c end up so condensed tat they generate micro black hole.

This is quite simply untrue. No micro black holes have ever been created (by man, at any rate), and we don't even possess the technology yet. Some theories postulate that the LHC (which hasn't come online yet) may be able to create micro black holes, but other theories think that the LHC doesn't have enough energy to do it.

If you can find a reference backing up your assertion that micro black holes have already been created, I'd be happy to change my mind. But to my knowledge, this hasn't happened, and was actually the subject of some controversy due to sensationalized speculation that the LHC would create such things and gobble the Earth up. (Of course, as you pointed you, they wouldn't.)

For example, let's use a simplistic theoretical experiment as an example. Lets have a spherical charge with 1C of charge. Lets have another with 1C of charge, but as a point object (i.e. radius -> 0). Since its repulsion or attractive force towards an equal or opposite charge sign is proportional to the flux DENSITY i.e. charge per area, the point charge is in fact "stronger" than the spherical charge of finite radius, since it is possible to get closer to the central origin of charge even though the overall amount of charge is the same.

This is abusing the equations.

One of the central results of electromagnetics is that the total flux through a surface depends only on the amount of enclosed charge. The "strength" of equal amounts of charge is always the same (though this is abusing the terminology), though it may be more diffuse or more concentrated on some parts of the surface. Assuming perfect symmetry, though, a spherical charge volume and a point charge volume have the exact same field strength at any given distance.

Yes, you can get closer to a point charge than a spherical charge, but you're really comparing apples and oranges then. If you're inside of a spherical charge, the effective charge is only that fraction of the charge which is enclosed by a sphere at the radius you're at. A point charge retains all of its flux, while a spherical charge will gradually drop off to 0 as you approach the center, because there's less charge inside the enclosing surface.

If you squeeze the spherical charge down, though, it will have the exact same strength as an equivalent point charge, all the way down to zero (when they become the same thing). That's comparing apples to apples.

From a sufficient distance (beyond the surface of the spherical charge), however, it's irrelevant because both the point charge and spherical charge are completely enclosed. (And in fact, the same result does hold for gravity.)

Sorry I'm being so hard on you over this (and I'm not an expert in the field, either, so I'm sure there's plenty of room to point out mistakes or misconceptions of my own), but the persistent misinformation in popular culture about black holes really gets my goat.

No, DE does not work on the same principles of a black hole. It seems it either draws out a lot of super dimension energy, or throws normal space into super dimension space, but definitively not like a black hole, otherwise Galia IV would have been squeezed, not crunched.

I always got the impression that a big bite was taken out of it. But I think we mostly concluded back then that we couldn't conclude anything from the depiction of Galia 4 at the beginning of episode 14.

Still, I don't think what we saw the DE do was exactly like a black hole. Some of the effects were probably similar, but I still think it's a fold-related phenomena. It really reminds me of the mis-fold that took a chunk of South Ataria Island off with the original Macross. Only scaled really, really far up.

There is more to it. Vajra don't seem to have a mind of their own, I guess they are mostly remotely guided via fold comunications, besides maybe some automatic reflexes. The DE is likely to create disturbances in fold comunications (similarly to an EMP), maybe it even shatter their fold quartzes, so it probably it is more effective than a simple physical destruction.

I think this idea has a lot of merit to it. A DE weapon would likely still be incredibly destructive in physical terms, but the knock-on effect, if it does disrupt Vajra communications, could be even more potent.

Mod edit: 2-week rule added. Thread closes on August 31st.

Edited August 29, 2008 by azrael

[RedWolf]

Funny you mentioned the original fold accident.

I think after all these years somebody figured out the disappearing fold engine mystery.

Applied those physics to the DE.

One thing we don't know is that what Mao was a doctor of.

Remember Mao Nome was fascinated by machinery. I'm leaning more she became a physicist or an engineer than a biologist.

Also remember the cover for the loss of the Global. A fold accident.

But given Grace is such a b*tch I wouldn't make it pass her that she sabotage the Global.

The Global was in attack mode.

[Duke Togo]

My only question is this: Do you actually think Kawamori and company gave any real thought to the physics behind it? I mean, honestly?

[VF-25S Full Armour]

Well, thanks Deebot for explaining what I was trying to say about flux density better than I did. What I was trying to say about spherical object of finite radius vs. point charge. What you said about getting a spherical charge of finite mass and then squashing it down in radius to R->0 was exactly what I was trying to get across. My apologies for if the way I said it was too confusing.

As for singularities and the idea of the black practically infinite well where no matter could escape, well, that simply isn't that simple though. In practice, Hawking radiation has already been predicted by we know who and proven to exist from observations of real black holes. A proportionately VERY small but still detectable amount of radiation still radiates out of the "black" hole. Quantum Tunneling, exactly what causes serious problems in our quest for ever smaller transistors, as it actually gets significant at 16nm minimum half distance between each line. Compare this to the current 45nm process and the soon to come 32nm process.

The "strength" of the magnetic field i.e. the force of repulsion or attraction per unit charge is a function of flux density alone and has nothing to do with total charge. It's a basic definition and one only needs to refer to a multi-variable calculus text book to confirm this. Total flux, which is a function of charge (or mass for gravity) is NOT related to density at all. Real charged particles all have a finite effective radius (though), so the flux density can never get to infinity. That's why you don't get infinite force.

By the way, magnetic field theory just happens to be an extremely handy analogy for explaining gravitational flux since they actually work the same. The only real differences are:

1. Charge has 2 opposite signs but no "-mass" has been found so far.

2. The physical constant are different. Gravity has the G constant, but for electrostatics has Mo and Eo (for freespace), whereby 1/c^2 = MoEo and Mo = 4*pie*10^-7 and Eo = 8.84*10^-12.

Otherwise, the same maths apply.

To avoid actually hitting the black hole or in our earth's case, hitting the sun, one just needs to to be far enough and have an orbital velocity fast enough to generate centrifugal force to match or exceed (if one wants to get away) the gravitational pull generated centripetal force. If one's space ship gets close enough, the escape orbital velocity required starts to get to significant proportions of c and as you said, general relativity starts to be significant.

[Gubaba]

My only question is this: Do you actually think Kawamori and company gave any real thought to the physics behind it? I mean, honestly?

Surely you jest, sir. The Dimension Eater is clearly based on Friedmann's celebrated principle regarding clouds of destruction with swirly purple whisps looking extremely cool.

[azrael]

Surely you jest, sir. The Dimension Eater is clearly based on Friedmann's celebrated principle regarding clouds of destruction with swirly purple whisps looking extremely cool.

More to the point, do you think they care?

[Gubaba]

More to the point, do you think they care?

Who? Kawamori and company, or those who started this thread? Either way, I think the fact that the Dimension Eater detonation looked extremely awesome is of vital importance to all.

TANGENT: One thing I've always wondered about but have been too timid to ask in the mecha thread is...at what point does the discussion break down? I mean, we're dealing with impossible mechanics that only work because the writers say they do. You can talk about the physics of Valkyrie flight or how a pin-point barrier system works for only so long before you hit the "well, THIS would never work in real life" wall, right? How far can you really take the analysis before you have to stop?

Not trying to start any kind of scuffle, just wondering...

[sucker4meltrans]

first

second i am guessing the dimension eater creates some sort of fold space distortion that makes matter disappear from normal space.

[MisaForever]

You guys are seriously discussing this??? GOOD LORD LET IT GO.

[Morpheus]

Its hammer space, that would fit with most anime fact

[Mr March]

Even as a tech geek, I think this is way out of my league

Though it was interesting following it as much as I could.

I can guarantee Kawamori and Co. never put that much thought into the Dimension Eater. In fact, like almost all OverTechnology, they made the Dimension Eater a super dimension space phenomenon precisely so they didn't have to explain it. Or to be more accurate, they can explain away the DE with a convenient catch-all fiction

[Duke Togo]

PLEASE, FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS GOOD AND NATURAL, THINK OF THE CAT GIRLS!!

Can the poll be edited to include cat girls?

Edited August 17, 2008 by Duke Togo

[Kronnang Dunn]

Even as a tech geek, I think this is way out of my league

Though it was interesting following it as much as I could.

I can guarantee Kawamori and Co. never put that much thought into the Dimension Eater. In fact, like almost all OverTechnology, they made the Dimension Eater a super dimension space phenomenon precisely so they didn't have to explain it. Or to be more accurate, they can explain away the DE with a convenient catch-all fiction

...like practically all the tech of the Macross franchise I believe...

After all, is all just Science FICTION in the end, isn't it?

Edited August 17, 2008 by Kronnang Dunn

[Mr March]

Thanks, cause this thread needed a repeat of the exact same thing I just said

[Kronnang Dunn]

Thanks, cause this thread needed a repeat of the exact same thing I just said

Again, all I can say is...

keep baiting, by all means

[VF-25S Full Armour]

Why would the physics of such an incredible device like a DE fascinate me so much?Well, let's just say that quality Sci-Fi (especially with someone like SK who has a good technical background) has always been inspired by Science fact, taken to a theoretical extreme. Doesn't necessarily have to get EVERYTHING right, and most importantly, inspires lots of thought, research and enthusiasm about science and engineering.

Oh, by the way, here are the equations to describe classical gravity and electrostatics:

Fg = G*(m1*m2) / (R^2)

Where G = 6.67*10^-11

and R = distance between COG of m1 and m2 (hint: This is what makes density "special" (not the quotation marks, I'm not trying to pull a bunny out of the hat or such); density allows one to place the COG of the 2 objects much closer together without)

Fe = (Q1*Q2) / (4*pie*Eo*Er)

Eo = 8.84*10^-12 and Er is a medium dependent constant.

My apologies if I have managed to generate a string of headaches (and significantly increased headache medication sales) with what I'm doing here. Just having too much fun.

[Final Vegeta]

Please keep math away from Macrossworld!

FV

[Morpheus]

Macross City Weapon Banning Convention

The following weapons/tools are considered off-limit:

- Dimension Eater

- Bio Neural Chip

- Basara

[RedWolf]

What reaction weapons are allowed?

Does that mean good old fashoined nukes too?

[Mr March]

Morpheus

Ozuma breaks that Basara rule all the time; he's such a Fire Bomber fan

Again, all I can say is...

Then prove it and stop fishing for a fight with this immature cross-thread nonsense.

[Beltane70]

What reaction weapons are allowed?

Does that mean good old fashoined nukes too?

I don't think that old fashioned nukes exist anymore. They've been replaced by reaction weapons.

As for said reaction weapons, I think that there's only one kind and those would be the warheads on the missiles.

[VF-25S Full Armour]

Hello folks, after watching episode 21, I'm once again drawn to the notion of dimension eater technology and its possible physical basis.

As the dimension eater expanded, it literally ate the ship, starting from it center of activation, of course. The most interesting observation as that as enough material was removed from island 3, the whole structure collapsed (read imploded) once exceeded its structural limits. Incidentally, this works like a 3D sinkhole in space.

Just interesting observation I wish to share and hopefully spark a constructive discussion about the possible physical basis for such a device.

Edited August 29, 2008 by VF-25S Full Armour

[DarkReaper]

I think it's more of a weaponised omnidirectional shield overload. Just have to explain the sucking effect somehow.

[Morpheus]

Hello folks, after watching episode 21, I'm once again drawn to the notion of dimension eater technology and its possible physical basis.

As the dimension eater expanded, it literally ate the ship, starting from it center of activation, of course. The most interesting observation as that as enough material was removed from island 3, the whole structure collapsed (read imploded) once exceeded its structural limits. Incidentally, this works like a 3D sinkhole in space.

Just interesting observation I wish to share and hopefully spark a constructive discussion about the possible physical basis for such a device.

There it is, the solution to garbage problem

[VF-25S Full Armour]

There it is, the solution to garbage problem

In reality, well controlled artificial black holes have actually been suggested as the ultimate solution to hopeless waste disposal problems.

[DarkReaper]

And when they evaporate you have a massive catastrophe coming.

Gamma burst ahoy.

[Mr March]

It's hard to get a handle on what the Dimension Eater does. The first time the weapon was used on Gallia 4, it appeared to be shredding everything and clearly had some kind of explosive effect that pushed outward (like when the Zentradi screamed "de culcha!" and was blown backwards). But when it was unleashed upon one of the Islands, it appeared to be crushing everything. It could be the scale that made the difference or perhaps it's meant to be non-specific in effect.

Or perhaps the Dimension Eater is a explosive/shredding effect as it expands and then a crushing/absorbing effect as it subsides.

It's funny, but the way the scene was edited in episode 21, it almost felt like Ranka was left behind for a moment

[sharky]

As a fan of Gunbuster I like the idea that they are some sort of black hole technology. However, within the Macross universe I suspect that is is more of a super dimensional technology. Perhaps it's some sort of dirty fold type of technology that simply folds the sh** out of whatever is in it's fold zone. It does it in a bad way that grabs and folds an object piece by piece. Sending little pieces all over the galaxy or perhaps into other dimensions permanently.

[RF-26AAC]

As a fan of Gunbuster I like the idea that they are some sort of black hole technology. However, within the Macross universe I suspect that is is more of a super dimensional technology. Perhaps it's some sort of dirty fold type of technology that simply folds the sh** out of whatever is in it's fold zone. It does it in a bad way that grabs and folds an object piece by piece. Sending little pieces all over the galaxy or perhaps into other dimensions permanently.

That's precisely what I dreamed up when thinking of "fold malfunctions".

Grabbing the object atom by atom sounds closer to what it does, and then it disappears as it folds away... the question is, to where? o_O

[ComicKaze]

IMHO, discussing newtonion or quantum physics in a a fictional universe where dimensional folding is shown to be affected by the power of teenage girls singing is ridiculous...

Edited August 30, 2008 by ComicKaze

[sucker4meltrans]

it looks like some sort of fold based weapon. matter caught in it is simply folded in on its self.

Edited August 30, 2008 by sucker4meltrans

[Morpheus]

IMHO, discussing newtonion or quantum physics in a a fictional universe where dimensional folding is shown to be affected by the power of teenage girls singing is ridiculous...

You'll be surprised when you found out that molecule of water react to music/song

[Macross007]

You'll be surprised when you found out that molecule of water react to music/song

POWER TO THE MUSIC !!! I want a Macross 7 Sound Force with a Nekki Basara and a Mylene Jenius !!! I WANT ONE NOW !!! Now waiting for researches proving that music can stop wars.

[hobbes221]

Macross City Weapon Banning Convention

The following weapons/tools are considered off-limit:

- Dimension Eater

- Bio Neural Chip

- Basara

I'd past out Dimension Eaters with Bio Neural Chips as door prizes if that meant banning Basara!

Back on topic I like the idea it being a weaponized fold system.

[Dio]

Hear hear... weaponized fold system gets my vote.

Think about it... Folding is like a piece of cloth. Go from point A to point B on the cloth by tracking across it, that's standard space. Fold the cloth over so that point A touches point B, and you've folded space to cross a distance. Then you unfold while sitting on point B, and you're at your destination.

Scrunch a bunch of the cloth up all around point A, to where it is occupying several different folds (points B, C, D, E....), and then suddenly pop the cloth apart back to normal space.

This my my DE theory. It "eats dimensions" by turning 3 dimensions (space) into 0 dimensions (point or comparably small zone), then "pops" back out to normal space, effectively scattering the contents of the small zone across the infinity of the universe.