The Indiana Jones Thread. . .

[Hurin]

Ummm....Hurin, Star Wars was always for kids. I'm sorry if you don't see it that way, but that was Lucas' intention all the way back in '77.

Then he must think kids have gotten much dumber. . . which I can believe.

And, actually, I don't agree with your premise. Star Wars was intended for teenagers and kids. Gradually, it has lost the teenage appeal and concentrated more directly on kids.

[Uxi]

Yes it's splitting hairs when the definition wasn't my point. I'm not gonna be bothered by looking it up (it would make me feel so cheesy), so will concede it to you. My POINT was ably articulated by mike.

The midichlorian post was on Macross World in this very forum not even a month ago. I'm not even registered on any SW forums. I'm more than willing to intellectually debate someone when they jump to conclusions that aren't justified. YOU are the self proclaimed fanatic and openly admitted you were closed-minded. You're the one who grumbled about the Zahn books when they came out (which by itself says volumes, but that's another thread. )... i didn't even know about them until they were already out for maybe 5 years! Do I really need to quote you or can you re-read the progression of this thread? It wasn't I who ranted for Lucas to stop "f*cking with my childhood" or however you so eloquently put it. That's all you.

And you've done far more research than me. You're the one who seems to know the complete marketing production of the Ewoks. Are you obsessive compulsive or making it up? Though THERE would be far more Darth Vader, Luke Skywalker, Darth Maul & Boba Fett stuff than there was ever for Ewoks. Who was Lucas catering to then in this so-called steady progression towards the kids? Lucas' filmmaking and marketing has NOT changed IMO. Your perceptions of it has.

I'm not "F*cking with your childhood" any more than Lucas is, I'm just telling you that Lucas has no rational interest in catering to you or your ilk, because it will gain him nothing he doesn't already have, because you'll NEVER be satisfied. I doubt I'll have any trouble finding anyone to take your place in line for Episode III. And I'm not personally attacking or denegrating you, however much I might question how defensive you are, if not your debating tactics (here and the 1/48 thread in the Toys forum), and I'd appreciate the same, though you've given me cause to question whether you were a pot or a kettle and what your color was.

You brought up your hypothetical kids not being able to watch the original cut of the movies. Except for me saying that they have no right or need to, I have no clue what you're talking about.

Edited November 5, 2003 by Uxi

[Hurin]

YOU are the self proclaimed fanatic and openly admitted you were closed-minded.

Oh sweet merciful God. . . how are you still saying that I admitted this after just saying that you now realize I was kidding (as indicated by question marks and smileys). The fact that you are still saying that I admitted to such, boggles the mind and makes me realize there really is no point in continuing to communicate with you. . .

You're the one who grumbled about the Zahn books when they came out (which by itself says volumes, but that's another thread.  )...

Uh, yeah. It says I didn't like them. Uh, sue me.

It wasn't I who ranted for Lucas to stop "f*cking with my childhood" or however you so eloquently put it. That's all you.

Your point? Half the time I can't even figure out what you're getting at. . . but here I think you're trying to say: "No no! You're the fanatic! Not me! Not me!"

And you've done far more research than me.

Zero plus zero equal zero, then.

You're the one who seems to know the complete marketing production of the Ewoks.

I wasn't aware that owning toys as a child constituted research. But okay. . .

Are you obsessive compulsive or making it up?

C) I owned them.

Though THERE would be far more Darth Vader, Luke Skywalker, Darth Maul & Boba Fett stuff than there was ever for Ewoks.

Uh, are you even reading anymore before reflexively responding with exactly what I predicted you would say? To wit (This is me from my last post):

Also, keep in mind that it does not dismiss my argument to say: "Well, there were stormtrooper bed sheets too." Yes, there were. But that doesn't change the fact that it is totally believable that Lucas and his pals thought to themselves: "Ewok Star Wars bedsheets will sell like hotcakes to kids!"

If you're going to bring something up that I already attempted to interdict, you might want to consider at least making a passing reference to that effort before just saying what I've already attempted to refute.

Lucas' filmmaking and marketing has NOT changed IMO. Your perceptions of it has.

Sad. Just sad. If you don't think there is any change in tone between his early movies and the latter ones. . . wow. But, then again, you think they've all gotten progressively better. So, well, there you are. I think you're kidding yourself and aren't terribly descriminating. But, well, that's your right.

I'm not "F*cking with your childhood" any more than Lucas is

Nor have I accused you of doing so. . . again, what's your point?

I'm just telling you that Lucas has no rational interest in catering to you or your ilk

That is debatable despite your earnest assertions to the contrary. He might make better movies, in many people's estimation. Will he be insanely wealthy either way. . . yes. But, that's not his only motivation.

I doubt I'll have any trouble finding anyone to take your place in line for Episode III.

No, because there is still a good chance I'll be sitting there. Who knows. But He's already lost a lot in toy, novel, and other merchandise sales from people who feel like me. The point is that his movies don't have to alienate those like me by adding Jar-Jars, puns, and prat-falls. Kids would like it just fine without them.

because you'll NEVER be satisfied

Uh. . . okay. Though how would you know? I'm satisfied with a lot of things. This sandwich I'm having is mighty good right now.

And I'm not personally attacking or denegrating you, however much I might question how defensive you are, if not your debating tactics (here and the 1/48 thread in the Toys forum), and I'd appreciate the same, though you've given me cause to question whether you were a pot or a kettle and what your color was.

LOL. . . off the top of my head, you've used the following words referring to me, not my arguments:

hubris

fanatic

closed-minded

dangerous.

Some of which you still assert that I adopted for myself even in this very post. . . after you have already admitted that I did so "in jest." It's really mind-boggling.

As for the 1/48 thread. When someone is attacking Yamato and their fellow MWers for buying Yamato products, I'll point out the flaws in their arguments and the poor taste in which they're presented. Feel free to point out where I've actually attacked someone personally. And, even if there is a gleam of it in any of my posts, it is in response to people who have made a practice out of attacking Yamato, or other MWers unfairly and personally, while usually using faulty logic or bad assumptions.

You can question my debating tactics all you want. I go back, repeat your posts to you nearly word-for-word, and address them. You do no such thing most of the time (at least in any way that is readily apparent). As a matter of fact, you often ignore most of my points or dismiss them with something like:

I think your girlfriend is humoring you. Seriously.

or

The pseudo confiscation business is pure hyperbole, if not the antithesis of anything logical.

You can say that as much as you want. . . but all you ever really muster to support why my point of view is illogical is: "Uh, he doesn't owe you anything."

Which, of course, I never said he did.

I won't even touch the condescending way you like to point out "progress" from views that I never said I even held.

Over the last few posts (where this thread has deteriorated rapidly), I have made several comments about how you aren't really making any sense any more. And that is because, truthfully, you aren't being very clear. Yet, I still try to guess at what you're saying and address what I think you are trying to say. I also have pointed out that there is no need for you to start discussing me. If you want to call my responses to those personal comments "personal attacks," that's fine, but they pale in comparison to the words you've chosen to use.

The sad thing here, is that I understand your position so well that I can probably illuminate it better than you can yourself. I've read everything you've posted and addressed nearly all of it (rather than just what has been convenient for my point of view).

H

Edited November 5, 2003 by Hurin

[Uxi]

YOU are the self proclaimed fanatic and openly admitted you were closed-minded.

Oh sweet merciful God. . . how are you still saying that I admitted this after just saying that you now realize I was kidding (as indicated by question marks and smileys). The fact that you are still saying that I admitted to such, boggles the mind and makes me realize there really is no point in continuing to communicate with you. . .

[

It wasn't I who ranted for Lucas to stop "f*cking with my childhood" or however you so eloquently put it. That's all you.

Your point? Half the time I can't even figure out what you're getting at. . . but here I think you're trying to say: "No no! You're the fanatic! Not me! Not me!"

<snip>

Lucas' filmmaking and marketing has NOT changed IMO. Your perceptions of it has.

Sad. Just sad. If you don't think there is any change in tone between his early movies and the latter ones. . . wow. But, then again, you think they've all gotten progressively better. So, well, there you are. I think you're kidding yourself and aren't terribly descriminating. But, well, that's your right.

I don't believe you were kidding. Especially given the context "purist" has been used here on MW, before. It's possible you believe you were kidding, but I think that it was actually true. This is a toneless form of communication, but the sarcasm just didn't come across to me. My point is that you have sometimes some across as if you have SERIOUS issues and need help.

As far as your debating tactics... you've proven to be extremely defensive wherever I've seen things get marginally heated. This hasn't been good for anything other than the occassional smirk from me, but you sound like you've been getting quite worked up. You might claim to "repeat posts nearly word for word" but your selective use of edits sometimes (especially when it's out of context) has mades me question if you're doing it deliberately... but i've always given you the benefit of the doubt. Again, I haven't intended any acrimony in anything I've said. You, OTOH, I'm not so sure about right now.

The amount of stuff you owned as a kid equates to a rational and objective (heh) point of view of merchanidising. I think whoever bought you all that Ewok crap (parents) is to blame for your psychosis. Luke, Darth's, & Boba are far more significant than stormtroopers (or Ewoks) in the marketing strategy. Moreover Boba Fett was before & during RotJ and Darth Maul after. But I guess that went right over your head. Were there plush Jar-Jars? Your "evidence" is anectdotal and highly subjective (heh). You still have all that Ewok stuff or was that all from memory?

I'm kidding myself? Maybe you're kidding yourself? Maybe i'm more grounded, mellow and discriminating than you are and just not mental from having my childhood f*cked with by ewok stuff thrust upon me? Possible? You hate everything SW besides the original cuts of the first 2 movies. Your attitude towards Zahn (which has got to be the most mild and is widely held to be the best of the EU novels). That's your right, of course (again, it'd be absurd for me to say anything else) but to pretend there's a dividing line that Lucas crossed over is inane though it has certainly been entertaining.

Anytime you wanna debate midichlorians, lemme know.

[mikeszekely]

Uh, that's all fine and good. . . but would you feel the same way if your book had formed a large fan community. . . and then you arbitrarily went back and changed the book twenty years later and then said: "There, everything that happened before wasn't really what happened. Oh, and the old one is no longer for sale. Deal with it."

You may be within your rights. . . but you'd also be a jerk in a lot of people's eyes. The point is that you already told the story once. And while you may retain "legal" control of the story, that story is now very much a part of the public consciousness. . . in some ways, after twenty years, they own it too (again, not in any legally binding sense). To not take that into account is bad form, IMHO. Obviously, some disagree. . . but that's the way I see it.

H

Well, that would depend. And let's say I made a movie instead of wrote a book, to keep more in line with our discussion of Lucas.

Okay, if I made a movie that was the way I wanted it, and I was satisfied, I should have no reason to alter it. Maybe to prequels or sequels if I felt the need to expand on the story, but if the film captured my vision, then it should be fine. I think going back and altering a character so that he'd seem more of a good guy, or to try to incorporate more mass-market appeal is selling out your artistic vision.

On the other hand, if technology limited what I could and couldn't do, then I might have to settle. When technology advances to the point where I could do what I wanted originally, it might be tempting to re-do some things. For example, maybe I intended to have a scene on the moon. It's not feasible to actually do a shoot on the moon, but 20 years from now, it might be.

Or perhaps I simply wasn't faithful to my artistic vision. Perhaps the original version was where I sold out, trying to create fame and fortune for myself. Having succeded, I decide that it's safe for me to take my original film(s), and change a few things to make it closer to the idea that I originally had. Would that piss off some people? Sure, but it'd probably make me happy.

Now, which of those three scenarios applies to Lucas? I really don't have any idea. But at the end of the day, what it comes down to is that I don't really care, either. Whatever version comes out on DVD is probably the version I'll get, and that'll be good enough for me, and perhaps the simply majority as well.

If you really need DVDs of the trilogy in it's original form, well I know on eBay they're selling the trilogy on DVD already. I'd assume that they're region 0's. Perhaps they might be in the original form. Or, although this option will limit the quality, burn your own DVDs from your VHS or laserdiscs. Just a few things you'll need:

1 - A way to capture the video from the source to your computer. Personally, I have S-Video inputs on the front and back of my PC, plus a cable in.

2 - Some kind of software to author a DVD from the video you just captured. Again, my computer came with Click to DVD and Windows Movie Maker.

3 - A DVD burner. They've come down in price a lot, too. You can get burners that just do one type for around $100. Or, at $275, go for the best and get a Sony DRU-510A, which can burn onto all types.

When shopping for a burner, do some research and figure out what kind of media your players can read, either DVD+ or DVD-. For the record, both the PS2 and the Xbox will read both, as will most of the newer players. Then you can either buy a cheaper burner that burns what your players can play, or if they play both, buy an expensive burner that burns both formats, and then buy whatever blank DVDs are on sale.

[Hurin]

YOU are the self proclaimed fanatic and openly admitted you were closed-minded.

Oh sweet merciful God. . . how are you still saying that I admitted this after just saying that you now realize I was kidding (as indicated by question marks and smileys). The fact that you are still saying that I admitted to such, boggles the mind and makes me realize there really is no point in continuing to communicate with you. . .

[

It wasn't I who ranted for Lucas to stop "f*cking with my childhood" or however you so eloquently put it. That's all you.

Your point? Half the time I can't even figure out what you're getting at. . . but here I think you're trying to say: "No no! You're the fanatic! Not me! Not me!"

<snip>

Lucas' filmmaking and marketing has NOT changed IMO. Your perceptions of it has.

Sad. Just sad. If you don't think there is any change in tone between his early movies and the latter ones. . . wow. But, then again, you think they've all gotten progressively better. So, well, there you are. I think you're kidding yourself and aren't terribly descriminating. But, well, that's your right.

I don't believe you were kidding. Especially given the context "purist" has been used here on MW, before. It's possible you believe you were kidding, but I think that it was actually true. This is a toneless form of communication, but the sarcasm just didn't come across to me. My point is that you have sometimes some across as if you have SERIOUS issues and need help.

As far as your debating tactics... you've proven to be extremely defensive wherever I've seen things get marginally heated. This hasn't been good for anything other than the occassional smirk from me, but you sound like you've been getting quite worked up. You might claim to "repeat posts nearly word for word" but your selective use of edits sometimes (especially when it's out of context) has mades me question if you're doing it deliberately... but i've always given you the benefit of the doubt. Again, I haven't intended any acrimony in anything I've said. You, OTOH, I'm not so sure about right now.

The amount of stuff you owned as a kid equates to a rational and objective (heh) point of view of merchanidising. I think whoever bought you all that Ewok crap (parents) is to blame for your psychosis. Luke, Darth's, & Boba are far more significant than stormtroopers (or Ewoks) in the marketing strategy. Moreover Boba Fett was before & during RotJ and Darth Maul after. But I guess that went right over your head. Were there plush Jar-Jars? Your "evidence" is anectdotal and highly subjective (heh). You still have all that Ewok stuff or was that all from memory?

I'm kidding myself? Maybe you're kidding yourself? Maybe i'm more grounded, mellow and discriminating than you are and just not mental from having my childhood f*cked with by ewok stuff thrust upon me? Possible? You hate everything SW besides the original cuts of the first 2 movies. Your attitude towards Zahn (which has got to be the most mild and is widely held to be the best of the EU novels). That's your right, of course (again, it'd be absurd for me to say anything else) but to pretend there's a dividing line that Lucas crossed over is inane though it has certainly been entertaining.

Anytime you wanna debate midichlorians, lemme know.

Uxi.

1. If a question mark and a smiley don't indicate sarcasm, I don't know what to tell you. The intended meaning was to show you that I know how you view those who feel strongly about these things. It was in no way intended to take that mantle upon myself. How you could read it otherwise is beyond me. Further, the fact that you continue to cast it upon me, even after I have protested, essentially amounts to you flat-out calling me a liar. Which, unless you can read my mind, is pretty weak.

Oh, and, the term "purist" is used everywhere.

2. That entire last post of yours is nothing more than a looooong personal attack. You may also note that I only get defensive when people start flying the banner of "no personal attacks" while they themselves are doing it.

As for selective quoting. . . I quote just about everything you say back to you. In another thread, I was accused of using elipses and/or periods to truncate off something somebody said. . . as though that's a huge cover-up. Puh-lease. The entire post is right there just above it, untouched. . . and the words I used were not taken out of context whatsoever. It's a totally acceptable way of saving people some reading and emphasizing your point unless it is done in the Maureen Dowd fashion (with malice and intent to deceive).

So, the rest of your post is just saying that I "need help" and "have SERIOUS issues". . and that my parents are to blame for my "psychosis." And that's not even all of it. Man, if I ever needed an example of how you aren't able to hold up your end of this rationally anymore, I couldn't have asked for anything better.

The fact that you can say any of this in the context of a Star Wars debate doesn't speak highly of your mental state. . . but I'm not going to join you in the gutter.

You seem rather obsessed with maintaining this "Hey man. . . it's all good. . . nothing bothers me. . . why can't you just chill like me? Why does it bother you?" attitude. So, therefore, anyone who cares more than you is automatically at a disadvantage in your mind. . . and will eventually just be told "you have SERIOUS issues."

And, that's your whole argument. Every time you concede a point (like Greedo), you follow it up with some hippie dismissal:

I love the originals too, and most of the Special Edition overt alterations are questionable, but you let it deep deep under your skin while I'm unfased.

You know I agree with you on Greedo (and with Spielberg and ET), but it's tying your panties in a wad.

I do agree about the "frontal lobotomies" of the Indiana Jones characters in Last Crusade... at least Brody. But I didn't mind it much.

Good for you. You don't care as much. Your entire argument no longer seems directed towards proving me wrong. . . but rather, that I'm just crazy for caring so much. Meanwhile, you love to point out how mellow you are:

Maybe i'm more grounded, mellow and discriminating than you are and just not mental from having my childhood f*cked with by ewok stuff thrust upon me? Possible?

Here's a tip, Einstein, stop trying to psychoanalyze people via a faceless, "toneless" and anonymous medium while discussing Star Wars Movies. You're not qualified. Further, you might want to stop holding yourself up, rather egotistically, as the preferred alternative. Apparently, anyone who isn't as mellow as you has "SERIOUS issues." You want to call me defensive because you've gradually been calling my very sanity into question in more and more direct rhetoric as this thread has progressed (though it started in the very beginning)? Guilty. What you're doing is slimey and is quite possibly the lowest form of debate (if it can be considered a form at all). Your last post clinched it. If I were you, I'd be ashamed of myself. . . but, well, I doubt you will be.

Thanks for helping me kills a few hours at work. . . too bad you ended up just being a troll. . . pushing people's buttons and making personal attacks to see how much you can upset them. Sad really. Especially because I'm completely calm as I write all of this. I don't have to be upset to point these things out. So, "You've failed your highness. . ."

Ooops, there I go, quoting Star Wars and being a fanati. . . oops, sarcasm is lost on you.

H

P.S. I won't be responding, or even looking here again. This thread has lost all merit. If it ever had any to begin with.