Macross Frontier Episode 18 Talkback Thread *READ 1st Post*

[Morpheus]

what? the haters are still watching the olympics? too busy in another thread to vote? what?

The opening scene makes them nosebleed so hard that they miss the entire episode, thus the lack of negative votes.

[jmskie_tobie]

lolz probably.

astig!

[mike_s_6]

what? the haters are still watching the olympics? too busy in another thread to vote? what?

Okay here goes (don't throw tomatoes): Both the Ranka and Sheryl faction love it, Ranka fans are happy that Sheryl has lost everything, Sheryl fans are happy because her character is being developed

Of course I thought this was silly, the world isn't composed of two factions of fans

Oh yes, we get a new OP = happiness, positivity, yaay!!!

[dreamweaver13]

Okay here goes (don't throw tomatoes): Both the Ranka and Sheryl faction love it, Ranka fans are happy that Sheryl has lost everything, Sheryl fans are happy because her character is being developed

the same situation seen from two entirely different perspectives. who knows? members can give lengthy dispositions on why they like this episode, but deep deep deep down in their subconscious, it might actually be the case.

Edited August 12, 2008 by dreamweaver13

[Final Vegeta]

Remember when the first episode of Frontier was proof positive that the Macross timeline had been retconned so that the Megaroad 01 and Macross 7 fleets, and dozens of others all left Earth at the same time, in 2012?

Or that Ranka had something growing out of her belly, when she was scrunching up the cloth there, in the concert from episode 7?

You forget the FAST Pack connection And then there was someone who was still unsure Grace was a spy ("Sheryl said she just likes to snoop around, she can't be Agent G")

FV

[hobbes221]

Alright finally got around to watching epi 18 (I try and wait for the Lunar subs) and right when Alto and Micheal are talking about the fact that they can't do much the Vajra as things stand, I got that line from ALIENS in my head 'What the h*ll are we supposed to use man? Harsh language?' from Frost. Haven't read through most of this thread yet so if someone's already said that, sorry.

[Mercurial Morpheus]

Okay here goes (don't throw tomatoes): Both the Ranka and Sheryl faction love it, Ranka fans are happy that Sheryl has lost everything, Sheryl fans are happy because her character is being developed

Of course I thought this was silly, the world isn't composed of two factions of fans

Oh yes, we get a new OP = happiness, positivity, yaay!!!

Possibly, though you'd think conversely that some Sheryl fans would hate seeing that happen, thus vote negatively. The Ranka fan in me was happy in what she did, having nothing to do with Sheryl either, so that's not entirely true. I would've liked a shout-out to Sheryl though. Though I'm still between the two (though with my strange apathy during the breakdown scene, I must admit a somewhat stronger character fondness for Ranka apparently. I again blame early episodes and ardent fandom for damaging Sheryl I suppose. I just can't fully connect to her. I never liked her tactics either. ; Though maybe it was the whole "I'm Sheryl" bull right before. I love confidence and the whole "I'll be strong" mask, but it mildly got on my nerves there. Heck, a Ranka fan should be happy Sheryl gets developed. That, and her fall is somewhat satisfying from a Sheryl fan perspective. She sort of had it coming, though the death part was a touch cruel. So the Ranka fan was pleased with her continued new-found selflessness, and the Sheryl fan was pleased in her being put in her place as well as annoyed by her so-so personality (which I suppose should add to the former).

as a warbird fan, I love the nose art. Though I still would've preferred it to be Sheryl.

Though Grace is continuing to become increasingly more deliciously evil. Coupled with Inoue's voice (always fun to have miss sweetness and light in such roles), she's definitely threatening to steal Ranka and Sheryl's spot on my favorites. Even Klan won some points this time around.

The new opening is sweet. The Sheryl "Aimo" eyecatch just sounded absolutely wrong though. The Ranka/Vajra connection continues to intrigue. I liked the touch of her singing the real version afterwards.

Edited August 12, 2008 by Mercurial Morpheus

[magnuskn]

Possibly, though you'd think conversely that some Sheryl fans would hate seeing that happen, thus vote negatively. The Ranka fan in me was happy in what she did, having nothing to do with Sheryl either, so that's not entirely true. I would've liked a shout-out to Sheryl though. Though I'm still between the two (though with my strange apathy during the breakdown scene, I must admit a somewhat stronger character fondness for Ranka apparently. I again blame early episodes and ardent fandom for damaging Sheryl I suppose. I just can't fully connect to her. I never liked her tactics either. ; Though maybe it was the whole "I'm Sheryl" bull right before. I love confidence and the whole "I'll be strong" mask, but it mildly got on my nerves there. Heck, a Ranka fan should be happy Sheryl gets developed. That, and her fall is somewhat satisfying from a Sheryl fan perspective. She sort of had it coming, though the death part was a touch cruel. So the Ranka fan was pleased with her continued new-found selflessness, and the Sheryl fan was pleased in her being put in her place as well as annoyed by her so-so personality (which I suppose should add to the former).

Oh, believe me, as a Sheryl fan ( who loves her strong personality... I don´t feel threatened by strong women and don´t feel they need to be "put in their place". ) it was very painful to watch her fall into despair.

But it was necessary to further develop her character and as someone who also loves good characterization it was a necessary step.

Also, it helps her charging up her meter for her supermove. Alto-hime will stand no chance!

Sheryl ganbatte!

Edited August 12, 2008 by magnuskn

[mike_s_6]

Possibly, though you'd think conversely that some Sheryl fans would hate seeing that happen, thus vote negatively.

I told you it's a whack theory (which I didn't want to show in the first place since it's silly). You know what, the Sheryl fan in me actually wanted to see her go down like that since I can feel in my bones that there's something to happen to her after that... somethinig good

[Mercurial Morpheus]

I don´t feel threatened by strong women and don´t feel they need to be "put in their place".

You misinterpret me. Insultingly so. You practically paint me as misogynistic, especially on suggesting that I feel women need to be weak and that I'd prefer that strong woman be brought down a few pegs from some male need for dominance". It couldn't be further from the truth and you defame me. I'm not "threatened" by strong women, and very much prefer them. Though it's always nice to see a softer side (which felt forced in Sheryl due to some shoddy early writing and a five month gap, but has balanced a bit). My problem with Sheryl's personality isn't so much due to it being a confident one in that as it is often more of an obnoxious, spoiled, over-confident one. Even more so in that it's also a mask, one she's rather dependent on, and she is actually rather weak. It's being put in her place for this fact that is somewhat satisfying, not seeing a strong woman being broken as you suggest, as it's not the case here.

Her background has made this personality understandable, hence she's become more likable to me, and identifiable, if not so much sympathetic (or is it the other way around?). She was nothing, so she had to believe she was something through her own perseverance. Being "Sheryl Nome" supposedly had to mean something that makes her superior, because Sheryl Nome crawled from nothing to possess everything through her own shear will. Even though this is a lie, and everything's been handed to her on a silver platter. A fact she can't acknowledge, even complete with silver spoon in mouth. She does know this however, hence she worked hard, even if it was ultimately unnecessary, to make the lie true. Having Grace throw it in her face shatters this and she's gone back to what she truly is, Nothing. If that's not utterly delicious, I don't know what it. It's also way more identifiable than the bigshot who gets it all, knows it, sports an unflatteringly blunt attitude mixed with coy attempts at being cute, and is supposedly sexy because of it. I'll probably like her this way much, much more the second time through, as such revelations make earlier foibles much more bearable and her more likable, at least in an understanding way. She's rather unlikable at times in her earlier full of herself moments beforehand. For now, the earlier damage appears to still be done aI just can't sympathize too much with her at the moment given her earlier bleh nature and reading elsewhere on how she supposedly made the show. How she acts in the next episode may be the decider, but so far they've chosen to make a fairly unsympathetic character into one and it's not really working. She's better, but I won't cry for Sheryl Nome. Maybe the girl that came before though. That's the true gain here. I suppose I'm just the rare type that wasn't convinced by the vaunted episode six and turned off by her triangle dealings. The real character began only a few episodes ago, so I'm still deciding. I agree that she certainly needed "good characterization" as she had plenty of the mediocre type early on, and fans loved her for it for whatever reason.

So basically her trying the put the mask back on after it was battered and broken right before it outright shattered annoyed me a bit as it was classic of the more unsavory aspect of her that keeps her from endearing herself to me. That obstinate, stubborn adherence to the outer self she feels she must maintain. Hence it wasn't all that painful and sort of nice as it was very much the real her. She's [finally!] interesting, but I can't feel for her yet. Though even Ranka's finally striking a cord with me. As much as I love this show, I've never had such a hard time putting my finger on the characters, and characters are my main reason for liking anything. I like Ranka and Sheryl, but I'm not to emotional on them yet.

I also love how you supposedly love her for her strength yet say she'll win Alto by being in a time of need, hence by weakness. Sort of contradictory if you ask me.

Moving on, anyone else take amusement that the text of "Operation Cinderella Horn" is the EULA for Panopticum Array? Pardon if it's been mentioned already.

Pardon the lack of reply to whomever may have sniped me.

Oh and to be clear, yes I do like Sheryl. I just read her differently and it's something of a love/hate relationship.

Aw screw it EDIT:

I told you it's a whack theory (which I didn't want to show in the first place since it's silly). You know what, the Sheryl fan in me actually wanted to see her go down like that since I can feel in my bones that there's something to happen to her after that... somethinig good

Since it's Mike_S and cordial, I'll make the edit.

It's an okay theory, but you're right that there's not just two factions. Like the Ranka/Sheryl fans like me, and the Love/Hate Sheryl fans like I think I am.

Something good, eh? Like becoming a decent character deserving of the unabashed praise she gets? Who knows?

Though if you're implying Alto will fall for her directly because of this, then again, I find the contradiction amusing Why the preference for Alto going the pity/sympathy route if you prefer the "strong woman" bit.

I personally hope it triggers a more personal attitude shift. One more believable and realistic than the coy one from before mixed with the mask. One not afraid to show weakness. There's no shame in that. Then I can see Alto going for her. Though they're fairly even at this point with Sheryl having a slight lead as Alto feels more responsible for Ranka rather than friendly. Granted the revelations make those understandable, but it felt forced by the creators at the time. Probably why I didn't fall for it most of the time (7 was the best I think).

Edited August 12, 2008 by Mercurial Morpheus

[TehPW]

You misinterpret me. Insultingly so. You practically paint me ...... me.

Oh and to be clear, yes I do like Sheryl. I just read her differently and it's something of a love/hate relationship.

I wonder how many drag queens in SF (for the pride parades) dressed up as Alto or Sheryl? I know someone who'd know. I think i'll ask her....

[Mercurial Morpheus]

Ummm...okay...&_&

[mike_s_6]

Oh and to be clear, yes I do like Sheryl. I just read her differently and it's something of a love/hate relationship.

Come to think of it, our criteria for liking a character might be different from each other. You mentioned a lot of things there which you hate about her, but on the contrary, that's what I (speaking only for myself this time) liked about her. I think I go against popular notion when I say I like characters that are "interesting" regardless of what "virtue" they stand for. I like how they are "written". Example - I liked Joker more than Batman in the new Batman movie because he is interesting, regardless of his manic means. So I do respect if you dislike Sheryl somehow because she acts in a way you dislike, I say I like her because of her sass and her reaction to events that try to bring her down. She's more interesting to me in that way than Ranka, who possesses characteristics and character development that are too common in anime.

[Duke Togo]

Did you guys notice, this episode didn't have that much Negative votes as the previous ones?

I have a whack theory on why, but I suppose I'll keep it to myself

Battle Frontier's main gun. That's my story, atleast (why I went positive and not neutral). The gun firing without transforming gained Kawamori and co. some huge bonus points from me.

[Mercurial Morpheus]

Oh, I like characters that are interesting. Virtues aren't everything in a character. She need not be an angel for me to like her. I was always greatly more into Page than Monroe. Heck, didn't I say I think my favorite is fast becoming the rather wicked and cruel Grace? The Joker was more awesome than Batman, though on repeat viewings I'm drawn just as much to Harvey Dent (a woefully overshadowed Eckhart). It's just that I also prefer ones I can relate to, especially if they're trying to play for sympathy. It must be believable. So giving a confident, sassy, brash girl a kitsch nature suddenly, and then a sad background and trying to make you feel for her when even she doesn't want you to requires special work that so far Frontier has done a mediocre job at. I'm not saying she should have stayed cold, as than I'd probably be laughing at her misfortune, but there was something off about her in the early episodes that just hurt her credibility, so I couldn't relate to her much. Something that fan gushing annoyingly augmented (though discussions with the like obsane fans like yourself do help, otherwise I probably wouldn't give her much thought). All i know is that I didn't really like her much at all, but for some reason, I didn't hate her either. So I don't care much for her character, but still like her. It's weird. Maybe I just don't like her bewildering overpopularity despite her shoddy writing and the presence of better early defined characters.

I can't put my finger on it. So maybe I just find her interesting.

I've said in the past the Sheryl is more my usual type, and normally I'd be all over her in moments like the one in your avatar. But there are things I don't like about her that's kept me from wrapping myself around her (same as my usual avoidance to Ranka types keeps me from outright supporting her as well). I like her sass, but not when they're trying to play up some kid in a candy store and than switch to hard exterior again. While I usually like duality like that, it felt more like inconsistency or forcing likability than the depth they were going for. Her character feels much more like the one they established in episode one than the one we got in most of the episodes (the nice/notsonice "but I'm Sheryl" one that bounced a little too much). So I mostly blame the execution, the viewing schedule, maybe my own inattention (repeat viewings of scenes don't paint hewr so poorly for some reason, be it hindsight or lack of initial attentiveness) and the shear phenomenon of her popularity despite such. Reading about how great she is when I saw a okay character just didn't mesh right. So it's Alucard syndrome, just not as bad or undeserved (stupid polls). Though as i reconciled that, there was the triangle. I just don't like her underhandedness ( especially the whole invite Alto to Gallia IV despite knowing Ranka's plans). Aggression is good, but being Ranka's friend and all, that was outright low.

Ranka is a bit more generic, but she has that "little queen" curve ball going for her. She's also got the whole "New Sheryl" thing to. So it's a nice complementation. I also like her shift in recent episodes. I agree that Sheryl's more interesting, but Ranka's much more consistently written and developed. Sheryl felt a little "what are we going to do with her" early on.

It's late so pardon if I'm not making much sense or babbling. Hopefully no more curveballs will get sniped as I post this, so I may either sleep or trudge through the latest Geass than sleep.

[mike_s_6]

Oh, I like characters that are interesting. Virtues aren't everything in a character.

Oh, I didn't say that it's the virtues that you like in a character, I said that we have different criteria regarding what we like in a character, which is supported by the rest of your post. Also, I don't understand what "obsane" means, is it a new word for obsessive and insane? Don't you think this is an offensive way to call someone, especially if the person is talking to you in a civil manner? I'm not obsessive nor insane, that I'll have to argue with you. She's just an anime character.

Edited August 12, 2008 by mike_s_6

[magnuskn]

You misinterpret me. Insultingly so. You practically paint me as misogynistic, especially on suggesting that I feel women need to be weak and that I'd prefer that strong woman be brought down a few pegs from some male need for dominance". It couldn't be further from the truth and you defame me. I'm not "threatened" by strong women, and very much prefer them.

Hey, it wasn't me who said that, I was quoting you. Here you go:

and the Sheryl fan was pleased in her being put in her place as well as annoyed by her so-so personality (which I suppose should add to the former).

I find it somewhat amusing that you write a treatise on how you are not mysoginistic. I´m at a friends so I won´t even try to go through all of what you wrote with a fine comb, but I can safely say that everything you find annoying and grating with Sheryl is something which I like about her.

I also love how you supposedly love her for her strength yet say she'll win Alto by being in a time of need, hence by weakness. Sort of contradictory if you ask me.

Actually, it is simply that my opinion is more nuanced than I have put forward so far. Again, I don´t have the free time right now to explain fully. But to try to make it short, Sheryls strongness has been a hindrance in getting nearer to Alto in the past, because she didn´t admit to herself that she liked/loved him ( as is most easy to see in episode 10 after she kissed him ).

Now, the situation has changed very much lately, she really has fallen in love with him and there may have come something of it, if we wouldn´t have had so many occasions interrupted by plot events. But I think that losing her complete confidence in herself may break down that barrier.

[weixing]

Hi,

Hmm... seem like this episode is preparing Sheryl to sing with strong emotion... so emotion that will stun all the Vajra like what Ranka can... Sheryl still got a fold quartz earring...

Have a nice day.

[Mercurial Morpheus]

Hey, it wasn't me who said that, I was quoting you. Here you go:

I find it somewhat amusing that you write a treatise on how you are not mysoginistic.

Um, no you weren't. You were misinterpreting me. I said I was somewhat interested in her downfall as she hid behind a mask and it was interesting to see it stripped from her. The annoyance part was her slipping it back on in front of Michel and Klan despite it already being broken, reminding me of the side i don't like about her. The dishonest, weak side. The part after that was an observation on how that should have made the following scene sweeter, but the phrasing, I thought, implied that it really hadn't. You took that as I am threatened by strong women and enjoy seeing them being broken simply because I didn't sympathise with the character and felt she sort of had it coming (which is exactly what the writers had set up). This paint's me as women hating, and frankly begs the question of why I should bother addressing you in the first place. I only do so on the basis that's it's a misunderstanding. Hence my "treatise on how I'm not 'mysoginistic'".

. I´m at a friends so I won´t even try to go through all of what you wrote with a fine comb, but I can safely say that everything you find annoying and grating with Sheryl is something which I like about her.

So you like the inconsistent character and stuffy attitude as that's what i hadn't liked. ^_^To each their own.

Actually, it is simply that my opinion is more nuanced than I have put forward so far. Again, I don´t have the free time right now to explain fully. But to try to make it short, Sheryls strongness has been a hindrance in getting nearer to Alto in the past, because she didn´t admit to herself that she liked/loved him ( as is most easy to see in episode 10 after she kissed him ).

Now, the situation has changed very much lately, she really has fallen in love with him and there may have come something of it, if we wouldn´t have had so many occasions interrupted by plot events. But I think that losing her complete confidence in herself may break down that barrier.

Well, i can only work with what you give me. i do agree somewhat on her barriers, though it's more of she was open, but in her way sort of thing. She's been plenty forward with Alto.

Mike_s, obsane is what you described, and it's a word I'd just learned myself. I also said you weren't. Though rereading my post, it seems my fatigue didn't catch the mistyping. Which should be obvious if the sentence were to make sense (how could complaining about fans than talking to said fans help?)I believe the first like was supposed to be a "non-". i must've reworded it as i typed and not caught it. Apologies.

And what double post? You're not magnuskn too, right?

[MisaForever]

Wow, I could cut the tension in here with a knife. This is a fan board right?

[Mercurial Morpheus]

What greater tension than that amongst fans?

But yeah...

[magnuskn]

Um, no you weren't. You were misinterpreting me.

Again:

and the Sheryl fan was pleased in her being put in her place as well as annoyed by her so-so personality (which I suppose should add to the former).

Your words. Not mine.

I said I was somewhat interested in her downfall as she hid behind a mask and it was interesting to see it stripped from her. The annoyance part was her slipping it back on in front of Michel and Klan despite it already being broken, reminding me of the side i don't like about her. The dishonest, weak side. The part after that was an observation on how that should have made the following scene sweeter, but the phrasing, I thought, implied that it really hadn't. You took that as I am threatened by strong women and enjoy seeing them being broken simply because I didn't sympathise with the character and felt she sort of had it coming (which is exactly what the writers had set up). This paint's me as women hating, and frankly begs the question of why I should bother addressing you in the first place. I only do so on the basis that's it's a misunderstanding. Hence my "treatise on how I'm not 'mysoginistic'".

You are interpreting things into my response which I haven´t even said. I said:

( who loves her strong personality... I don´t feel threatened by strong women and don´t feel they need to be "put in their place". )

Where did I say that you hate women? Where did I say that you want to see them broken? I did disagree with the "putting her into her place" quote you yourself said, because that is an attitude which I personally do not share and it that particular case even strongly dislike.

Although I have a good friend who wants a girl who is dumb, so that she always agrees with what he says. That wouldn´t work for me, because I want a strong, independent woman for me. Doesn´t mean that I think that his choice is somehow "wrong", it just isn´t my cup of tea.

So you like the inconsistent character and stuffy attitude as that's what i hadn't liked. ^_^To each their own.

Yeah, not exactly. You cited various things about her personality and behaviour which seem to me the signs of a strong personality. If you really, really want, I´ll cite them back at you... again.

And what double post? You're not magnuskn too, right?

Corrected since then. The board wouldn´t post my message, so I clicked the "Add reply" button once more. Since I had to get going ( couldn´t keep occupying the computer of my friend when wanted to play a battleground in WoW ), and the board wouldn´t refresh, I assumed my replies had been lost.

Edited August 12, 2008 by magnuskn

[Final Vegeta]

But to try to make it short, Sheryls strongness has been a hindrance in getting nearer to Alto in the past, because she didn´t admit to herself that she liked/loved him ( as is most easy to see in episode 10 after she kissed him ).

Now, the situation has changed very much lately, she really has fallen in love with him and there may have come something of it, if we wouldn´t have had so many occasions interrupted by plot events. But I think that losing her complete confidence in herself may break down that barrier.

Sorry, but I think there is some social naivety here

Sheryl's strongness has never been a hindrance in getting nearer Alto. Keep in mind that if the purpose of life is transmitting your genes to future generations, stronger genes are always more desirable than others. The strongness causes the initial attraction, which prompts investment in another person. Only after this phase you can relax and act like you will have the support and assistance of the other person without make him feel like you are exploiting him.

I am saying this as a general rule of thumb though, there are many things else which can cause attraction, but there is indeed what could be described as "if you want to get, first look like you are able to give".

If you look at the anime, the moment Alto seemed closer to Ranka was in ep. 13, and he was telling her "I don't ever know if you are shy or brave". The possibility of "strongness" caused the attraction.

FV

[magnuskn]

Sorry, but I think there is some social naivety here

Sheryl's strongness has never been a hindrance in getting nearer Alto. Keep in mind that if the purpose of life is transmitting your genes to future generations, stronger genes are always more desirable than others. The strongness causes the initial attraction, which prompts investment in another person. Only after this phase you can relax and act like you will have the support and assistance of the other person without make him feel like you are exploiting him.

I am saying this as a general rule of thumb though, there are many things else which can cause attraction, but there is indeed what could be described as "if you want to get, first look like you are able to give".

If you look at the anime, the moment Alto seemed closer to Ranka was in ep. 13, and he was telling her "I don't ever know if you are shy or brave". The possibility of "strongness" caused the attraction.

FV

Okay, with even more detail, then.

Alto has had a problem in the past episodes of not knowing if Sheryl was serious about him. Her whole strong and playful personality created the impression in him, that she considered him a plaything ( as best evidenced in her calling him her "slave" during episode eight ). He also was incredibly oblivious that she *is* interested in him in any further way than someone to annoy and tug around, also quite obvious when Michael asked him about just that, also in episode eight.

Sheryl, on her side, has been interested in Alto first because he didn´t treat her as "Sheryl Nome, the Galactic Fairy", but as just another girl. Her personality doesn´t admit to any weakness ( as per her often-repeated "I am Sheryl! Sheryl Nome!" mantra ), so she didn´t want to admit to herself that she is falling in love with Alto, because being in love also means being somewhat dependent on the other person.

That is why she played her kiss with Alto off as just a joke, which in turn just solidified Altos opinion that she is just playing with him. Hence how he reacted with being stand-offish to her "summons" in episode 11, when she told him of her present for his birthday.

After that events conspired to delay any further romantic development to now. It´s clear that Sheryl since then has really fallen for Alto, but so far Alto hasn´t had a chance to really talk with her about anything since then.

Sheryls downfall has opened new avenues in her characterization, but personally I would have liked her keeping more to her strong personality side, and the two of them working it out from there. As the writers teared her self-image of the self-made pop idol down, we will get another side of her.

But at least the two of them will finally have the chance to have a long talk. If the writers don´t continue with the plot interrupts.

[dreamweaver13]

haha. hey mike_s, who would've thought that you posting your wack theory would lead to this debate? My fault for pressing you to reveal it, you did say you were keeping it to yourself. gomen, gomen.

I'm just surprised how the posts showing love or distate for a particular character have digressed into such a "personal" and tension-filled debate between the posters. In any case, i hope you've gotten it out of your system, guys. or if not... i think that old thread for "macross frontier girls" is still alive in this forum somewhere.

But, just to get my two-cents in.... I LOVE Sheryl!! yup, that's basically all i wanna say. haha. peace.

[Mercurial Morpheus]

Again:

"and the Sheryl fan was pleased in her being put in her place as well as annoyed by her so-so personality (which I suppose should add to the former)."

Your words. Not mine.

Wow. You're still dwelling on the basest meaning of a line in my first of now four posts explaining what I meant by it and how you were misinterpreting it as some reflection of my character. I'm surprised you haven't done a tirade on the second part of "so-so personality" (meant here as a love/hate sort of thing). The main issue is that you apply it's context in a far more general and spitful way than intended, and despite explaining it more fully, continue to dwell on it and twist my words against me. It's vaguely strawman. I've explained that it's in the same context of how Mike_s has it. Enjoying seeing the reversal of fortunes, or in my case, the shattering of her mask. The situation is how it is partly to her own actions,m so it's a comeuppance to it, one even I admitted was a bit harsh. I liked how the situation caused a truer her to appear. You took it in the base way of it meaning her personality. That I like seeing a proud woman being cast down. It's not the case, especially since I don't even see her that way - for the last time.

Where did I say that you hate women? Where did I say that you want to see them broken? I did disagree with the "putting her into her place" quote you yourself said, because that is an attitude which I personally do not share and it that particular case even strongly dislike.

It's simple magnuskn. You're line "I don't feel threatened by strong women..." and "don't feel that they should be put in their place" implied you felt I did. If you can't see how it could be interpreted as it was, you don't understand the shear flexibility of english text and reading comprehension. Like I'd explained before, it reads much more generally than in a single character context, hence my need to explain that my line had nothing to do with how you were interpreting it. Had you simply said, "I love strong women and felt Sheryl didn't deserve this", it would've been different. Even the "I did disagree with the "putting her into her place" quote you yourself said, because that is an attitude which I personally do not share and it that particular case even strongly dislike." is off as I've repeatedly said the statement has to do more with her mask, her false nature, her actions, not her "strong" personality. You state it as me saying I don't like her because she's confident or something (which, given recent events, she's not). You're hinging everything on choice of words instead of context. Words which were also uttered in closing, in a light thread and were not meant nearly as seriously as you make out. Heck, words I just typed that came to mind, and weren't really put down with any deep meaning. It's not like A cried for joy to see her in the rain. I was mostly apathetic, which drew me to the conclusion that I felt the situation wasn't as unfair as to warrant my usual "poor suchandsuch" response I usually have (I was a wreck at the end of CG 18 for example). It's all in how they've written her, and how it's sort of kept me from sympathizing with her like I should have by now. In other words, take it with a frickin' grain of salt. (of in your case, a salt lick) .

Although I have a good friend who wants a girl who is dumb, so that she always agrees with what he says. That wouldn´t work for me, because I want a strong, independent woman for me. Doesn´t mean that I think that his choice is somehow "wrong", it just isn´t my cup of tea.

Interesting, though i fail to see the baring, as I'm like you, not your friend, and even said so in the post you malign. Hmmm.... had I used the words "oh how the mighty had fallen" or described it as a "fall" instead of "in her place", would you have calmed down? Describing it as "faltering" seems not to irk you as much despite it really being no better. Nor does it fit as well. Perhaps "reversal of fortunes" or an outright "seeing her mask broken".

Yeah, not exactly. You cited various things about her personality and behaviour which seem to me the signs of a strong personality. If you really, really want, I´ll cite them back at you... again.

Don't know what a smiley means, eh? It's a joke, reflecting merely what I simplified as the difference in our views. I know it's deeper than that, as I've said mine is deeper than you give me credit for. I said I liked her strong personality, but I am to be faulted if I don't like how far see tends to take it? It's a matter of taste I suppose. She can be a bit too brash and tactless. I also don't see her as being so mature like others state her to be. "sign of a strong personality" or no, they're not the only signs, so saying I dislike such in no way means I dislike her confidence. Geez.

Corrected since then. The board wouldn´t post my message, so I clicked the "Add reply" button once more. Since I had to get going ( couldn´t keep occupying the computer of my friend when wanted to play a battleground in WoW ), and the board wouldn´t refresh, I assumed my replies had been lost.

it was a joke on how you apparently sniped Mike_s, and her saying she'd double posted, when the post above her was yours. Hence my humor in saying if you're secretly the same person. In this case, Two Face.

Enjoy your talk with Final Vegeta. I need to move on to CG discussion (like hell that'll happen, I know).

Edited August 13, 2008 by Mercurial Morpheus

[Morpheus]

Wow, nice avatar Dreamweaver13 .

I hope this thread wouldn't reduce to Ranka fanclub vs Sheryl fanclub flame war .

On another topic, after watching the Lunar sub, I know that Frontier fleet planning to fold 800-1000 years in a planned long distance fold. I wonder how Vajra followed them, or they fold directly into Vajra teritory?

[Lethalzero]

i may be not to eloquent on macross world

but here's my two cents

i like the the episode for sheryl, because i know this will test her personality

and i know she raise up again...

saying her fave line " because i am sheryl"

xD

[mike_s_6]

haha. hey mike_s, who would've thought that you posting your wack theory would lead to this debate?

I was keeping it to myself, as I've told everyone: because I know it's wrong and ridiculous (I'm telling even myself that it's wrong and ridiculous) and that given, no one probably believes that it's true right? Please don't get upset about it

[Xeros]

Sheryl on Saotome mansion = http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XdUIw7t9YQ

[Mercurial Morpheus]

Wow, nice avatar Dreamweaver13 .

I hope this thread wouldn't reduce to Ranka fanclub vs Sheryl fanclub flame war .

Probably not, as this has nothing to do with Ranka.

i may be not to eloquent on macross world

but here's my two cents

i like the the episode for sheryl, because i know this will test her personality

and i know she raise up again...

saying her fave line " because i am sheryl"

xD

Actually, that was the definition of eloquence. Nice.

[MisaForever]

Sheryl on Saotome mansion = http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XdUIw7t9YQ

What... is..... THAT?! It's like the worst recording ever.

[DeeBot]

On another topic, after watching the Lunar sub, I know that Frontier fleet planning to fold 800-1000 years in a planned long distance fold. I wonder how Vajra followed them, or they fold directly into Vajra teritory?

There have been hints dropped here and there for a while that there's a Vajra colony on the Frontier. Whether they call in reinforcements, or just unleash the ones already there, remains to be seen.

(My personal bet is on the latter; if they call in reinforcements, they'd be detected. If they unleash an attack from the inside, it'll take everyone by surprise. Sorta like that one episode of SDF:M, where the Zentradi invade through the Daedalus--one of my favorite episodes, incidentally. More Vajra might fold in later on.)

Edited August 13, 2008 by DeeBot

[dreamweaver13]

Wow, nice avatar Dreamweaver13 .

I hope this thread wouldn't reduce to Ranka fanclub vs Sheryl fanclub flame war .

On another topic, after watching the Lunar sub, I know that Frontier fleet planning to fold 800-1000 years in a planned long distance fold. I wonder how Vajra followed them, or they fold directly into Vajra teritory?

- hehe. thanks to Kronnang for finding the pic from somewhere.

- more like a "why i like sheryl" vs. "why i don't like sheryl so much". but it seems to have progressed beyond that already, sadly.

- you're forgetting that Grace is still on the Frontier. she can lead more vajra into the new coordinates.

[wolfx]

haha. hey mike_s, who would've thought that you posting your wack theory would lead to this debate? My fault for pressing you to reveal it, you did say you were keeping it to yourself. gomen, gomen.

I'm just surprised how the posts showing love or distate for a particular character have digressed into such a "personal" and tension-filled debate between the posters. In any case, i hope you've gotten it out of your system, guys. or if not... i think that old thread for "macross frontier girls" is still alive in this forum somewhere.

But, just to get my two-cents in.... I LOVE Sheryl!! yup, that's basically all i wanna say. haha. peace.

Didn't u know? Anime fandon is serious business.