What's with the lolicon in Frontier?

[jollyreaper]

The first anime I got into dates back from the 80's and early 90's. Since then there's been a very big trend going towards moe and the sexualization of extremely young female characters. I'm not talking about the creators coming up with a female character and then sick fanfic writers coming along and making it all wrong like with Card Captor Sakura slash, I'm talking about characters that are overtly sexualized from the start, even though they're children.

Ok, so Ranka isn't preteen but she's certainly a young teenager, not just physically but also emotionally. The Rei and Asuka in Evangelion were technically fourteen but with bodies like that, no effin' way. They were drawn older, had older personalities (or at least in Asuka's case, a personality), if the subs were changed to say they were 18, nobody would argue. But Ranka comes across like your best friend's sister, not the hot older one you have a crush on but his little sister. How in the hell are they trying to pair her up with Alto? And this isn't just being written as a younger girl's inappropriate crush on an older man who rebuffs it in a kind and gentle fashion, she's plastered semi-nude on the side of warplanes! The show's creators are saying "Yes, think of her when you defile yourselves and buy lots of resin kits."

I find this whole lolicon angle disturbing. They even brought it as far as that bridge bunny who has the crush on the captain. Hell, at least that relationship would be legal. Creepy but legal.

Are all animes going loli these days?

[Gubaba]

I don't think Ranka has been particularly sexualized...sure, there was the shower scene but that focussed more on Sheryl and Nanase (to quote Some Like It Hot: "Zow-ie!") than on Ranka.

She's cute, not sexy (Zentradi nosebleeds notwithstanding).

Similarly, when I saw the clip of Megumi Nakajima singing "Seikan Hikou," I thought she was absolutely adorable. Which is very different from thinking, "Man, I'd like to tap THAT!"

[MisaForever]

I don't think Ranka has been particularly sexualized...sure, there was the shower scene but that focussed more on Sheryl and Nanase (to quote Some Like It Hot: "Zow-ie!") than on Ranka.

She's cute, not sexy (Zentradi nosebleeds notwithstanding).

Similarly, when I saw the clip of Megumi Nakajima singing "Seikan Hikou," I thought she was absolutely adorable. Which is very different from thinking, "Man, I'd like to tap THAT!"

A................. gre....ees.... with Gu......baba?! O_O

[Gubaba]

A................. gre....ees.... with Gu......baba?! O_O

BOMBAA!!

[Elektrix]

Ummm, there's only like 2 years separating Ranka and Alto..... she's 15, Alto is 17. Sheryl is also 17.

Ranka is the exact same age, 15, as Minmay was.

Hikaru was 16, compared to 17 for Alto. Hardly a significant difference.

The most "illegal" relationship would seemingly then be Hikaru (16) and Misa (19), if you wanted to get technical.

The potential sexual chemistry between Basara (21) and Mylene (14) was much weirder (although of course there wasn't anything to that really). Hell, Gamlin (19) and the more clear sexual tension between him and Mylene was weirder.

It's not like they're trying to pair her up with Ozma.

And frankly, there hardly seems to be a sexual relationship between Alto and Ranka. Clearly she's got a crush on him, and both probably enjoyed their kiss, but he definitely seems to treat her more like a little sister than anything.

Not sure what exactly is "lolicon" about a 17 year old and a 15 year old, or why you think this is particularly new (again, only a year's difference between Alto and Hikaru, and that relationship was back in the 80's).

And as far as the "sexualization" of young girls, this is hardly a new thing, either in anime or around the world. The French, the Americans, etc. all have plenty of examples in art, literature, etc. of sexualizing young girls.

I mean, think of where the "Lolita" term comes from, after all.

Ultimately, I don't see that they're trying to "pair her up" with Alto any more than they were trying to "pair Minmay up with Hikaru" - which is to say, it seems like Ranka clearly has a crush on Alto (a 15 year old with a crush on a 17 year old? And as 17 year old who might be tempted by that 15 year old? God, you're right, that NEVER happens in real life.), but the direction of the show seems to indicate Alto is more destined to end up with Sheryl Nome (who happens to be the same age as him).

The idea that this is somehow "new" to anime is pretty silly though; go back to Kimagure Orange Road back in the 80's........ Madoka was, I believe, about 16 years old, and was incredibly sexualized (she was modeled after Phoebe Cates for crying out loud) and that show had plenty of sexual artwork of her. Granted, she was not typically "lolicon" considering she looked more like a woman, but still, if you're going to focus on sexualizing of underage girls, she obviously fits the bill. And of course Hikaru was only 14 (or at least 2 years younger than Kyosuke and Madoka.... always been fuzzy on the timelines).

-Elektrix

Edited August 5, 2008 by Elektrix

[wolfx]

LOL....in before troll thread is closed.

All this "loli is bad" things as i said before in other places is just xenophobia by western cultures. Not everywhere in the world marries older than 18-21 like you you know. Some places marry as young as 13 with even consentual sex at that same age. Japan's consentual age is 13 last I checked and although I do not condone paedophilia, but i do think alot of people are just overeacting to this subculture of moe.

That said Frontier is tame in the so-called loli/moe department and does not even sexualise any child-like character. Closest there is to a hint of loli is probably micro-Klan but she's just genetically defective.

[mike_s_6]

The first anime I got into dates back from the 80's and early 90's. Since then there's been a very big trend going towards moe and the sexualization of extremely young female characters. I'm not talking about the creators coming up with a female character and then sick fanfic writers coming along and making it all wrong like with Card Captor Sakura slash, I'm talking about characters that are overtly sexualized from the start, even though they're children.

Ok, so Ranka isn't preteen but she's certainly a young teenager, not just physically but also emotionally. The Rei and Asuka in Evangelion were technically fourteen but with bodies like that, no effin' way. They were drawn older, had older personalities (or at least in Asuka's case, a personality), if the subs were changed to say they were 18, nobody would argue. But Ranka comes across like your best friend's sister, not the hot older one you have a crush on but his little sister. How in the hell are they trying to pair her up with Alto? And this isn't just being written as a younger girl's inappropriate crush on an older man who rebuffs it in a kind and gentle fashion, she's plastered semi-nude on the side of warplanes! The show's creators are saying "Yes, think of her when you defile yourselves and buy lots of resin kits."

I find this whole lolicon angle disturbing. They even brought it as far as that bridge bunny who has the crush on the captain. Hell, at least that relationship would be legal. Creepy but legal.

Are all animes going loli these days?

I don't agree that all animes go loli, we can't generalize all animations. But we do have Klan Klan in Macross F, I bet they wouldn't have thought of that clever "genetic defect" if there was no loli trend at all. She is even animated in a funny manner (childish) when she's in micronized form, as opposed to her mature demeanor when she's in macronized form. As for Ranka, I just think they wanted to establish two stars who are quite different from each other, who have their own set of fans, so they made the two look and act very different from each other. So since one is a hot girl, the other one is a... childish looking girl. One is tough, currently being broken down, the other is childish, currently getting stronger.

Also, I don't buy the ages of the characters as a proof that this or that character is not loli. Let's remind ourselves that behind the animation are animators who declare the ages of the characters. For all we know, Ranka was really meant to appeal to loli fans with her cuteness, her cute phone, her cute bag, her cute room, her innocent demeanor, her immature body (plastered half-naked on the side of a war ship at that), but then, the animators suddenly say, "Let's tell them she's 16."

But well, as some others have mentioned here, it might be just the culture of Japan since they have a young age of consent, so we're viewing this phenomenon as outsiders and don't understand it as well as if we know Japanese culture.

Edited August 5, 2008 by mike_s_6

[dreamweaver13]

Also, I don't buy the ages of the characters as a proof that this or that character is not loli. Let's remind ourselves that behind the animation are animators who declare the ages of the characters. For all we know, Ranka was really meant to appeal to loli fans with her cuteness, her cute phone, her cute bag, her cute room, her innocent demeanor, her immature body (plastered half-naked on the side of a war ship at that), but then, the animators suddenly say, "Let's tell them she's 16."

and don't forget the "moe" fang!!

As for this ranka-lolicon thing... is it really so bad? yeah, i guess there may be a trend to go for cute and kawaii in anime these days (still arguable, though), but macross frontier has done well to cater to that "trend" tastefully. So they designed their 15 year old Ranka a little younger-looking than usual, but petite and child-looking 15 year olds aren't as rare as you might think, specially in asian countries. in that sense, there's nothing weird about ranka's design, appearance or behavior. The treatment on Ranka is vey reasonable. it's no "lucky star" or "SOS haruhi", i tell you that.

It's just... cute. nothing wrong with that. that doesn't have to be automatically equated to something sexual.

Or placed in another perspective, "moe" or "lolicon" is not that much of a new concept. even in the original SDFM, Sammy teases the three spies as "lolicon" because they have minmei dolls. which means that, at that time, Minmei was pretty much considered "moe" or "loli" already. you could even say that Ranka and Minmei have some similarities (and in some respects, Minmei migth be even more childish at times. hehe.), minmei just happened to be a more... developed 15 yr old.

So at the end of it all, what is the gripe actually? is it a matter of characters looking younger than their age? or is it a matter of characters actually finally looking and acting their age (klan klan excluded, of course. she's an anomaly). As what the OP suggested, Rei and Asuka aren't so bad because they looked and acted maturely. but that's just it. wasn't it more natural for 14 year olds to look and act more or less like Ranka?

As for klanklan... well let's face it, now that's textbook "moe". can't defend that. hehe. but all in all, i find micro klanklan uber cute.

[miriya]

I will reveal my ignorance by asking,

What is lolicon?

What is moe?

[RedWolf]

I will reveal my ignorance by asking,

What is lolicon?

What is moe?

Lolicon or Lolita Complex means a liking to 2D prebubescent or immature girls.

The term Lolita is derived from Vladamir Nabokov's novel Lolita, where it's protagonist and narrator Humbert Humbert is obssesed with having an intimate relationship with a "very" young girl named Lolita.

Moe- derived from Moeru or to burn or burning refers to a person's feeling of being passionate about something or someone when they see them.

For example when you see a kitten you say "So Cute!".

Apply that to 2D girls or real life girls otakus gets passionate on their points of Moe.

In a way Moe can be described as a fetish.

[miriya]

Thank you.

[Sumdumgai]

Might I add that Macross is brought to you by the people that created the characters: Warera Rori Konda.

That should say everything. And I think that this show is aimed primarily at teenagers, with a strong pulling of us old timers.

Considering the touchy explosive subject matter, my thread lock sense is tingling.

[mike_s_6]

People aren't throwing insults at each other yet, let's keep it that way so that it doesn't get locked.

Edited August 5, 2008 by mike_s_6

[dreamweaver13]

People aren't throwing insults at each other yet, let's keep it that way so that it doesn't get locked.

Are you forgetting that this is the thread where Misaforever actually agreed with Gubaba? This is a love thread!

[miriya]

I am so tempted to take it there but I am trying to slow down on my instigating thread closures. i do not want to be unpopular. Or do I? . . .

No I wont. I think it is a worthy topic.

I have several friends who dont like anime because of all the wierd sex stuff and little girls and tentacles. And I always tell them that not all anime is like that. Then I show them My Neighbor Totoro, or Spirited Away, or Nausicaa of the valley of the wind and they are won over. But even Miyazaki's Kiki, has her panties showing quite a bit and that is considered to be a bit of a feminist anime. It probably is largely cultural and for us the age of consent is 18 (some of us maybe less than that depending on state) and so all the little girls stuff does freak us out. I personally do not like the pedophila and rape in most hentai flix but that is why I do not watch hentai. So far Ranka does not bother me. I have only seen through episode 13 though.

[Gubaba]

Might I add that Macross is brought to you by the people that created the characters: Warera Rori Konda.

That should say everything. And I think that this show is aimed primarily at teenagers, with a strong pulling of us old timers.

Considering the touchy explosive subject matter, my thread lock sense is tingling.

Enh, I would hope that as long as we're polite and mature, it won't be a problem.

But I'm not sure there's much that resolvable here. Some people wil say that Ranka's too loli, others will argue that she isn't. Not much common ground to be gained. Loli is in the eye of the beholder...

[Gubaba]

Are you forgetting that this is the thread where Misaforever actually agreed with Gubaba? This is a love thread!

TOTSUGEKI LOVEHEART!!

(I got kinda sick of shouting "Bombaa." )