Which is the best biological weapon?

[ChronoReverse]

The Protodeviln aren't completely stupid. After one engagement they'd withdraw and use the tactics they used against Macross 7 when Basara's singing forced them away.

The argument that the millions and more ships the Zentraedi have can stop the Protodeviln doesn't really make sense when you can't possibly have all the ships firing at one Protodeviln at the same time. Furthermore, what happens when one of the small and fast ones like Sivil gets into the middle of the fleet? Those can move quicker and more nimbly than even valkyries. Snubfighter class weaponry does precisely zilch to them. They'd easily be able to cause chaos inside the fleets while absorbing massive amounts of spiritia without reprieve.

The firepower displayed against M7 was also rather muted since the Protodeviln weren't interested in wiping out the fleet (but wanted to capture them). They already can overpower the Macross Cannon of the NMC easily despite that.

In the end, it comes down to it that Protoculture was utterly unable to stop the Protodeviln without anima spiritia. I suspect that the Protodeviln in M7 were actually still in a relatively weak form as they had just acquired enough spiritia to "wake up". Since they would've started at full power against the Protoculture, the Protodeviln's true power was unstoppable.

Edited August 4, 2008 by ChronoReverse

[Noyhauser]

No, the point is that this is a completely illogical argument, because its apparent that the PD never JUST fought with the Zentredi. They created a massive army of their own, the Supervision army to fight the PC and the Zentredi. While yeah the PD couldn't be everywhere at one time, they didn't have to be: They created the SA to be their own massive army of mindless soldiers. Its clear that the PD could simply destroy entire zentredi fleets, while SA held the territory they had already taken. And one shouldn't simply discount the SA, they were still a formidable force several thousand years after the PD were sealed away, able to mount offensives that destroy large parts of the Zentredi weapon building infrastructure. Given their longevity and effectivenss, its clear the SA must be self-sustaining (either through their own production of clones or by capturing soldiers) and would have posed an almost insurmountable threat to the PC and Zentredi.

Also, I'm also not convinced by march's arguments. First off, its not just big grabil who is the problem. I think its episode 14 or something we see Sivil trash a Guantanamo carrier in a matter of seconds. Taking down something like a Boldozaa fleet command ship doesn't seem like much a stretch for the small Grabill and Sivil, with the fleet remnants being killed by Grabil. The episode 26 comment only adds further credence to such a point.

Second point: I'm pretty sure that after losing 85% of their population to the PD, the Protoculture would try to do more than just seal them away in a distant planet. I mean if they could conjure up massive Zentredi fleets with enough firepower to destroy the PD, what sense would it be to keep them around, when their followers could possibly come back to free them? Lets also consider the thematic argument here about macross 7. The whole point of the series is that weapons can't solve all problems. You have an unchanging main character who's sole purpose is to show that the power of song will help to overcome adversaries. Throughout the story, the increasingly destructive weapons are used against the PD to almost no effect whatsoever against them. Its only Basara's song that creates a resolution. So to now argue "oh if they had MORE weapons, well then they would defeat the PD" throws itself in the face of the overbearing main theme of the series itself. This is why I think most people here are finding real trouble accepting the recommendations.

In the end, I think its pretty safe to say that if the PC didn't have Anima Spiritia, It and its Zentredi forces would have been annihilated by the Protodeviln and their Supervision army cohorts.

Edited August 4, 2008 by Noyhauser

[Gubaba]

Thanks, Noyhauser...that pretty much says it all. (Wish I could be that succinct... )

[Mr March]

Found it!

Not as conclusive and air-tight as I hoped it would be...but still, I think the evidence is on my side. Much as I'd like to say that giant badasses bred for war are stronger than a bunch of clownish Elfquest rejects, I just can't.

Actually, the Macross series are very consistent when describing the differences between Zentradi/Meltrandi fleets and main fleets, so I'd definitely stick to what was said in context. And quite frankly if a reaction bomb can damage a Protodeviln, the Mobile Fortress cannon is gonna lay some serious hurt on any of them.

Anyway, it’s just my opinion and that's how I see it.

As for tactics, that's an unending point/counter point argument. Neither side has an ultimate strategy and for every tactic, there is a counter. Sivil or Gavil start skirting aboard ships to suck spiritia and the Zentradi simply use bait ships as traps. The Protodeviln change up and then the Zentradi change up, over and over until the battle ends in Zentradi victory

The Protodeviln require a vast amount of spiritia to power their abilities and if there are no easily accessible sources, the must expend to gain it. This is why the handful of Protodeviln required the Supervision Army to war upon the Protoculture. As powerful as they may be, the Protodeviln can’t win on their own, they are not inexhaustible and time is never on their side. All kinds of scenarios can be envisioned to grant advantage to one side or the other, but I don't see how that's conclusive. In my opinion, I'm assuming a single engagement without the benefit of outside resources; the Macross series scenario. One Zentradi main fleet of 5 million ships and their troops/mecha vs. the 7 Protodevlin and their 70,000 strong Varauta fleet. The Zentradi don’t get their Factory Satellite or other main fleets, the Protodeviln don’t have their spiritia farms, Supervision Armies or the help of the Protoculture directive. IMO, it’s fairest most realistic scenario if the two were to fight and each side has to make due with what they got.

I'm sticking with Zentradi. YMMV.

[dreamweaver13]

Funny how Birdman is leading in the polls, but not too much posts about it.

[Gubaba]

Anyway, it’s just my opinion and that's how I see it.

Now I know what to ask Kawamori if I ever meet him...Sivil vs. the Bodol Main Fleet...who would win?

Funny how Birdman is leading in the polls, but not too much posts about it.

Strange...it was way behind about five hours ago...

[dreamweaver13]

Strange...it was way behind about five hours ago...

hmm... even has the power to affect our polls, eh? the birdman is indeed powerful.

[Final Vegeta]

The ships in the Zentradi fleet don't need reaction weapons. They have super dimension energy cannons, just like the ones seen in SDF Macross and DYRL.

By the way, in ep. 42 of Macross 7 Gavigula was able to resist a Macross Cannon.

Even if we were to assume the Zentradi couldn't actually kill the Protodeviln, they could exhaust the Protodeviln into an inert state.

This assuming Protodeviln were dumb enough not to flee at faster than light speed before that (in Macross 7 they always fled when that happened).

Also there are other abilities to mention:

-They can possess other people. And I don't mean how Gepelnitch and Gigil did, but like Sivil and Gavil did.

-Absorbing a light amount of spiritia from Zentradi makes them going berserk. They will probably ending up killing each other. (Macross 7 seems to suggest that Zentradi are chronically low on spiritia, and that's why songs are so effective on them)

-Valgo could create minions to harvest spiritia.

FV

[Max Jenius]

From a sheer power standpoint I think the upper level Protodevilin would pwn everything else.

Birdman... we still don't know exactly what that is/was. Looked like basically a sentient SD cannon though so... who knows...? Not enough info.

Edited August 5, 2008 by Max Jenius

[Kronnang Dunn]

I believe the Vajra are the best. They reproduce like crazy and evolve from furred little mice things to big-ass warship destroyer mecha. I bet the Vajra carriers and the hiveships are also evolved Vajra... still need confirmation for that.

The fact that they produce weaponry, missiles and other ammo on demand and that they can overcome fold faults makes them pretty sneaky and deadly. Their adaptation to enemy weapons is also amazing.

I bet they haven't been around for that long, if not they could very well had dominated/infested the whole galaxy by now... or more!!!