Macross Frontier Mecha/Technology Thread III *Read 1st Post*

[Shaka_Z]

On the topic of Ghost fighters, remote controls and lag there is also the reason that by using a data link in almost any form blows away any type of EMCON, or emission control. That means that if the enemy has any type of electronic warfare support measures they could use the data link to find out where the fleet is. Space is big and if you are at war you may not want to give away your location by having what is the electronic form of a leash going from your air wing right back to your carrier. In today's military there are many times when aircrews will not even use the radio for most if not the whole flight, using only hand and light signals to communicate. I'm not a real big fan of UCAVs (unmanned combat air vehicle) I feel that they have their place in war, but should never replace pilots in many missions.

I second this opinion... I am really uncomfortable with the USAF's drive to UCAVs - they've basically all but stated that their objective is to all but eliminate manned aircraft in the future battlespace, and that aircraft like the F-22 are quite likely going to be the last of their kind. I certainly hope that our Pilots take that threat for what it is, and follow the example of Isamu - remember that he didnt go to earth to rescue myung (initially)... his intention was to kill the AI ghost fighter outright, in front of the entire military establishment, on the day of its' public unveiling (basically he was going to assassinate the damn thing). Guld was sent to stop him, as aside from the X-9 ghost itself, there was really nothing and no-one else in the inventory that stood a chance in hell of catching Isamu and the YF-19, much less killing him.

it was really just a coincidence that the unveiling was set to be part of the Terran debut of Sharon, who promptly made her bid to take over the world, take myung hostage, and take control of the ghost. (ain't coinkidinks fun?)

[edit]omfg... I just had an evil thought. it's known that the yf-19 and -21 were so advanced that they were operating right at the bleeding edge of a 'normal' humans performance limits. what would happen if say... SMS fitted a -19 with the Ex-Gear system?[/edit]

Edited August 26, 2008 by Shaka_Z

[hobbes221]

In response to Shaka_Z about having a 19 or 21 with an EX-gear, does anyone out there have any ideas on just how the EX-gear system works to enable the pilots to push their bodies harder. What I mean is that today both the USAF and USN use a system called Combat Edge that provides tactical aircrew with an assisted pressure breathing for G (PBG) system for positive acceleration protection between +4 and +9 G to an altitude of 50,000feet. This system has allowed aircrews to with stand up to 11g without blacking out. (on a side note I have heard from F-14 drivers who have pulled over 12g before this system was issued) I can't see the whole assisted pressure system being pushed that much farther without doing harm to the aircrew.

On a another topic after having watched most of the fights with the VF-25G again, I'm not too sure that having a sniper system mounted to a VF is the best idea. If it were up to me I would have given the sniper gun pods to the Q-Reas (maybe in place of that beam cannon on the back) as Michael seemed to alway go to battroid as soon as the fight started. No one get mad at me I AM NOT bashing Michael in any way, all that I am saying is that if you look at the way that Alto and Ozma fly and compare that to Michael I feel that some of the Valkyrie's speed and mobility is wasted in the sniper role. Useful sometimes but more of a special role weapon than standard load.

Edited August 26, 2008 by hobbes221

[Shaka_Z]

In response to Shaka_Z about having a 19 or 21 with an EX-gear, does anyone out there with any ideas on just how the EX-gear system works to enable the pilots to push their bodies harder. What I mean is that today both the USAF and USN use a system called Combat Edge that provides tactical aircrew with an assisted pressure breathing for G (PBG) system for positive acceleration protection between +4 and +9 G to an altitude of 50,000feet. This system has allowed aircrews to with stand up to 11g without blacking out. (on a side note I have heard from F-14 drivers who have pulled over 12g before this system was issued) I can't see the whole assisted pressure system being pushed that much farther without doing harm to the aircrew.

well.. its' got something to do with those skintight mechanical pressure flight suits. they are probably far more effective at combatting G's than any suit based on gas pressure. I always envisioned them as being not so much skintight, but almost like an oversuit of synthetic muscle fiber, which could literally make a 90-lb weakling like Luca look like bruce lee at his physical peak (he was what... 5'7" and 130lbs of absolute muscle, many of which were in places where most people just don't have muscle)

[hobbes221]

Off topic but I just now got around to seeing episode 20 subbed and two things about the VF-27 caught my eye. The first was the fact that I had been wondering how the 27 would land with that long cannon mounted under the belly, I never would have thought that they would use the opening barrel to allow the nose gear to clear the cannon, very clever. The second thing was that a while back I had the idea about the wing engines having thrust vectoring but it had not been shown to do so yet, nice to see that I was right about that.

[sucker4meltrans]

thurst vectoring for the main engines in space not so important in space because of vernier thrusters but with 4 thrust vectoring nozzles in atmospheric flight the crazy stuff you could do!

[Chief Guld Goa Bowman]

thurst vectoring for the main engines in space not so important in space because of vernier thrusters but with 4 thrust vectoring nozzles in atmospheric flight the crazy stuff you could do!

Explain?

[hobbes221]

Explain?

With four engines with thrust vectoring two could be used to as we have seen to date to push the nose around while the other two working with the RCS system could be used to keep up the airspeed of the VF. If you look at video of aircraft like the Su-30/35, Mig-29 OVT, and the F-22 they can do a few high angle moves then have to regain airspeed. That is one of the main arguments against thrust vectoring in today's world, that a fighter pilot should never allow their speed to drop down into what is called post-stall maneuvering, that regardless of agility, fighting with such low airspeed presents an easy target. Also in the space combat that we have seen with the 27s they do jink around a whole lot. I also feel that the agility of the 27 in gerwalk would be very high as well. While the VF-27 is not high on my personal list of all time VFs, it is still a beast of a Valkyrie and deserves respect.

Edit - As to the post-stall flight, who cares how slow you get when you're in a bird that may come close to kicking out half a million pounds of thrust! (No hard numbers on the output of any Frontier VF engines but if we look at rate that VF engine thrust is increasing, then with four engines I don't think that I'm too far off. The VF-19S had about 348,000 lbs of thrust)

Edited August 27, 2008 by hobbes221

[daflip702]

All that talk about how advanced everything is....but it looks like they're stuck in the 80's. Did anyone catch the vehicles in Macross F? Maybe Shoji is paying way too much tribute. Easter Eggs?

Take a close look, bottom right corner.....Is that a White 80's Toyota Van?

I guess in the world of Macross, consumer technology is still in the past century.....if you look closely, you'll find a lava lamp through the window.

below: A pic of the Toyota....see that?

"Tonight we're gonna party like it's 1983!!!!!"

[Shaka_Z]

good catch with the white toyota van... some designs are pretty much timeless.

[d3v]

Well, those boxy designs are easier to render.

And if anything, these guys probably have fond memories of the 80's, back before Japan's bubble burst.

[sucker4meltrans]

every thing looks a little retro on frontier. i bet minivans on galaxy look like hi tech jelly beans with wheels, or not thye might hover on galaxy.

[Mr March]

I think Chief Guld Goa Bowman was asking why thrust vectoring in space is supposedly not useful, hobbes221. Air speed and lift would not be factors in a vacuum. As good as verniers are, they would be no substitute for the main engines. The more you can redirect the thrust of your most powerful motive force, the better your spacecraft will maneuver in space.

[Chief Guld Goa Bowman]

I think Chief Guld Goa Bowman was asking why thrust vectoring in space is supposedly not useful, hobbes221. Air speed and lift would not be factors in a vacuum. As good as verniers are, they would be no substitute for the main engines. The more you can redirect the thrust of your most powerful motive force, the better your spacecraft will maneuver in space.

That's what I was asking, good looking out March.

[RF-26AAC]

All that talk about how advanced everything is....but it looks like they're stuck in the 80's. Did anyone catch the vehicles in Macross F? Maybe Shoji is paying way too much tribute. Easter Eggs?

Take a close look, bottom right corner.....Is that a White 80's Toyota Van?

I guess in the world of Macross, consumer technology is still in the past century.....if you look closely, you'll find a lava lamp through the window.

below: A pic of the Toyota....see that?

"Tonight we're gonna party like it's 1983!!!!!"

It's called a HiAce and they're STILL AROUND and in production, and THEY LOOK ALMOST THE SAME #_#

Take a look at the Toyota President or whatever that limo thing is called, it costs 100k, is still in production today and over its lifetime of 40 years it has gone through only TWO redesigns.

Which goes to show, if something works really well in Japan they don't like to change it all that much... hence why the Miata stayed virtually the same from 89-99 #_#

At least we don't have "ADALT TOY" shops; given that there were only 56,000 people on the SDF-1 there was a huge number of lingerie and adult stores in the background...

I wanted to know, how is it that the VF-27 can make a 90* turn in space and move in straight lines while not losing speed, much like the Vajra can?

Also, I am not sure if it has been covered, but what kind of Armor system does the VF-27 employ, or is it just a stronger barrier system like the VF-25 is equipped with?

Thanks,

RF-26 AAC

[Master Dex]

I wanted to know, how is it that the VF-27 can make a 90* turn in space and move in straight lines while not losing speed, much like the Vajra can?

Also, I am not sure if it has been covered, but what kind of Armor system does the VF-27 employ, or is it just a stronger barrier system like the VF-25 is equipped with?

Thanks,

RF-26 AAC

Well having all 4 engines with thrust vectoring certainly helps it make such tight turns in space. You don't lose speed in space as easily as in air due to absence of drag. To lose speed in space you have to point thrust in the opposite direction of you current momentum.

Actually a 90 degree turn in space would be a little tricky if you didn't slow down before doing in because if you kept your forward momentum and then even with thrust vectoring started pushing yourself perpendicular to said momentum you'd end up making an arc instead of a 90 degree angle. One can assume though that while the 27 is using it's main engines to change its direction to the perpendicular the various vernier and RCS thrusters on the VF are slowing the crafts forward momentum in order to make a tighter turn.

As for the VF-27's armor, I wasn't under any impression that it was anything different or more advanced than any other VF we've seen.

[hobbes221]

Sorry I missed the point on that guys. As Master Dex was saying maybe this is the reason why we see VFs flying in space in the manner they do as to how it's shown on BSG with the Vipers. With a cyborg at the stick of the 27s I think that a whole lot of cross controlling of the vectoring nozzles is going on, with maybe each engine pointing in a different direction for some maneuvers. I can't figure this all out yet (not a cyborg space fighter pilot) I'll have to mess with this some more.

[ChronoReverse]

I wanted to know, how is it that the VF-27 can make a 90* turn in space and move in straight lines while not losing speed, much like the Vajra can?

I'm pretty certain the VF-27 has some weird vectoring device not seen before. It always does this funky "teleporting dash" thing with the shadow trails that's not indicative of inertial vectoring or pure power thrusting.

For example, Alto pulls a cobra in his VF-25 and then switches to GERWALK to get a shot on Brera, but then the VF-27 goes weird and basically teleports into a cobra position and gets behind Alto. Alto's response? "What the?!?" not "Argh, I screwed up"

[Chief Guld Goa Bowman]

All Hail The VF-27!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Morpheus]

I'm pretty certain the VF-27 has some weird vectoring device not seen before. It always does this funky "teleporting dash" thing with the shadow trails that's not indicative of inertial vectoring or pure power thrusting.

For example, Alto pulls a cobra in his VF-25 and then switches to GERWALK to get a shot on Brera, but then the VF-27 goes weird and basically teleports into a cobra position and gets behind Alto. Alto's response? "What the?!?" not "Argh, I screwed up"

Variable modes in fighter means new maneuver in combat, such as Sheryl "Drunken Fist" maneuver in epi.14, to bad she's sober at that time and the VF-25 was blown up

[hobbes221]

I'm pretty certain the VF-27 has some weird vectoring device not seen before. It always does this funky "teleporting dash" thing with the shadow trails that's not indicative of inertial vectoring or pure power thrusting.

For example, Alto pulls a cobra in his VF-25 and then switches to GERWALK to get a shot on Brera, but then the VF-27 goes weird and basically teleports into a cobra position and gets behind Alto. Alto's response? "What the?!?" not "Argh, I screwed up"

I don't know if it has something along the lines of what you are thinking. After just having looked over that move a few dozen times to me it looks like a cobra only done far faster than Alto's. Maybe that was what shocked Alto, if the 25 is top of the line and here comes something pulling a move with more Gs than any human should be able to do, I'd say WTF too. But who knows what the VF-27 has tucked in that airframe, you could be right.

[Shaka_Z]

I don't know if it has something along the lines of what you are thinking. After just having looked over that move a few dozen times to me it looks like a cobra only done far faster than Alto's. Maybe that was what shocked Alto, if the 25 is top of the line and here comes something pulling a move with more Gs than any human should be able to do, I'd say WTF too. But who knows what the VF-27 has tucked in that airframe, you could be right.

remember though that it isnt just the airframe that alto is having to deal with... Brera being a cyborg is able to withstand maneuvers that Alto would consider suicidal for extended periods... put brera in a vf-25 with his 'matrix' jack and I would expect him to be able to fly it almost exactly the same way he does the 27.

[hobbes221]

remember though that it isnt just the airframe that alto is having to deal with... Brera being a cyborg is able to withstand maneuvers that Alto would consider suicidal for extended periods... put brera in a vf-25 with his 'matrix' jack and I would expect him to be able to fly it almost exactly the same way he does the 27.

I'm with you on that, I was just saying that the VF-27 was made specifically for cyborg pilots and would most likely have systems tailored for them.

[Final Vegeta]

It always does this funky "teleporting dash" thing with the shadow trails that's not indicative of inertial vectoring or pure power thrusting.

I think the after image is a simple FX to suggest an incredible acceleration

But it could also be part of its stealth system

FV

[RedWolf]

I think the after image is a simple FX to suggest an incredible acceleration

But it could also be part of its stealth system

FV

Oh for crying out loud he had his Valkyrie painted purple. Of course there would be streaks of purple.

Millard Johnson (Macross Plus) was in purple team of Hikaru's Skull Squadron

Moaramia Jenius' call sign was Purple Skull.

Shin Kudo's call sign is Purple-1, which ironically what Grace called Brera on Galia 4.

Every body else didn't paint their Valkyrie purple, except the Protodevlin.

Only Brera in the entire history of NUNS and UN Spacy.

Pink Pecker was an entirely different case cause they have their Valkyries painted pink.

[DarkReaper]

I don't quite get your purple rant.

Anyway Nora's valk was purple and I guess they just decided that purple valks signal bogeys.

[d3v]

Purple being a combination of red and blue means that its slightly faster and the pilot is somewhat of a genius.

[Radd]

I don't quite get your purple rant.

People read a LOT into Frontier, and go off on huge arguments about stuff that isn't just there.

The opening colonization graphic, which seemed to have some people convinced that the Macross timeline had been changed to the point where the Megaroad 1, Macross 7, and a host of other colonization fleets all left Earth at exactly the same time in 2012. Later, this same dramatization was used as conclusive evidence that the Megaroad-1 did not head towards the centre of the galaxy.

The electrical effect of the VF-25's transformation somehow meaning that the VF-25 flies apart and recombines (when you clearly see in the same footage that this is not the case).

Ranka's "protrusion" (showing that many are unfamiliar with the exotic properties of this strange technology known as "cloth").

Alto exclaiming, "Macross!" when he sees the Global, thus proving it's the one and only SDF-1 (when several episodes prior he exclaimed that very same word when the transformed Quarter appeared).

I'm pretty certain I'm forgetting one or two of the other incredibly heated debates that have cropped up over absolutely nothing over the course of the series.

[azrael]

People read a LOT into Frontier, and go off on huge arguments about stuff that isn't just there.

More like reading into it TOO MUCH. Fans want so much detail and pay attention to all the microscopic details that it ruins the story. It's at the point where it's not even funny anymore and well beyond stupid.

[ChronoReverse]

I don't know if it has something along the lines of what you are thinking. After just having looked over that move a few dozen times to me it looks like a cobra only done far faster than Alto's. Maybe that was what shocked Alto, if the 25 is top of the line and here comes something pulling a move with more Gs than any human should be able to do, I'd say WTF too. But who knows what the VF-27 has tucked in that airframe, you could be right.

He didn't pull a cobra though. That involves using air surfaces to pull up and bleed off airspeed. The VF-27 just flipped into that mode and THEN you see the effects of the atmosphere tugging it behind Alto. There wasn't even any show of thrusters hinting at how Brera pulled it off. That's what I said he "sort of teleported" into position (teleport as in Akuma from Street Fighter rather than Star Trek).

This isn't the only time it's shown either. And if it's just speed, why is it only used for the shortline dash maneuvers the VF-27 seems fond of doing? It's a very different effect used only in very specific cases.

Edited August 28, 2008 by ChronoReverse

[Morpheus]

Every body else didn't paint their Valkyrie purple, except the Protodevlin.

Well, Nora valk, all the Varauta valk and the Pheyos Valkyrie are all colored in purple. Purple is the color of the baddies.

[Radd]

Wasn't Longhorn squadron's VF's painted purple? The squadron you fly in for the PS2 game?

[Mr March]

Oh yeah, I believe they were. They were mostly white (except for the cannon fodder VF-1A type) but they had purple highlights.

[hobbes221]

He didn't pull a cobra though. That involves using air surfaces to pull up and bleed off airspeed. The VF-27 just flipped into that mode and THEN you see the effects of the atmosphere tugging it behind Alto.

It has been my understanding that a Pugachev's Cobra means that an aircraft pulls 90°–120° angle of attack, then back down to zero, while the plane maintains a straight and level flight throughout the maneuver. I know that what the 27 did does not count because he gets the nose up then shoots upward above the 25, but it was closest thing that I could think of at the time.

[ChronoReverse]

Well, it's not so much the mechanics but how he flipped the plane into position for it. The three ways we know it can be done (so far) in Macross are Flight Surfaces, Vernier Thrusters, and the Inertial Vectoring system. However, the way he moved was drawn differently from the way the other three have been shown thus far.

[hobbes221]

Well, it's not so much the mechanics but how he flipped the plane into position for it. The three ways we know it can be done (so far) in Macross are Flight Surfaces, Vernier Thrusters, and the Inertial Vectoring system. However, the way he moved was drawn differently from the way the other three have been shown thus far.

Okay I see where you're going with this and I agree in part but for now I still think that what we are seeing is extremely high G maneuvering and such. I could very well be wrong too. Do like what you have to say though, helps me kept an open mind.