Morpheus Posted October 17, 2008 Posted October 17, 2008 I think everything is fine as long we don't overdo it (ok, one of you confess now, who actually build a 1:1 valk at home complete with a working nuclear reactor). I agree with Mr.March, statistic and all can show that a mecha is more than a mecha and also giving some pure nerd a job to do. Since everything on this discussion is purely science fiction I think is ok for everyone to pour their thoughts as long its fits with (macross world) logic . So people, can we get back at discussing Frontier era's mecha? Btw, talking about stat and number, I wonder why member never asked the stat on the girls on Frontier
Graham Posted October 17, 2008 Posted October 17, 2008 Hopefully, once the Macross Chronicles gets done with the three trillion pages on the VF-1, we will eventually get some VF-25 pages with detailed stats. I too love stats, as detailed as possible. Agree, comparing is fun. Graham
d3v Posted October 17, 2008 Posted October 17, 2008 (edited) Hopefully, once the Macross Chronicles gets done with the three trillion pages on the VF-1, we will eventually get some VF-25 pages with detailed stats. Unless off course, it turns out that after their done with the VF-1, they decide to give us three trillion more pages on the VF-19 Kai + Sound Booster. Edited October 17, 2008 by d3v
anime52k8 Posted October 17, 2008 Posted October 17, 2008 Unless off course, it turns out that after their done with the VF-1, they decide to give us three trillion more pages on the VF-19 Kai + Sound Booster. ugh, please no. Btw, talking about stat and number, I wonder why member never asked the stat on the girls on Frontier how big ARE sheryl's hopes and dreams?
RedWolf Posted October 17, 2008 Posted October 17, 2008 how big ARE sheryl's hopes and dreams? And Grace's Despairs and Nightmares.
Shaka_Z Posted October 17, 2008 Posted October 17, 2008 ugh, please no. how big ARE sheryl's hopes and dreams? indeed... these are technical specs I would truly like to know... for instance C... or D?
anime52k8 Posted October 17, 2008 Posted October 17, 2008 indeed... these are technical specs I would truly like to know... for instance C... or D? Sheryl looks like a moderate to large C. Grace looks like a large D, maybe even a DD. and klan... DDD-DDDD if see still had them when she micronizes. I wonder what that would be when she's macronized, decuple Z?
d3v Posted October 17, 2008 Posted October 17, 2008 (edited) Sheryl looks like a moderate to large C. Grace looks like a large D, maybe even a DD. and klan... DDD-DDDD if see still had them when she micronizes. I wonder what that would be when she's macronized, decuple Z? You know, since Grace is technically a cyborg/android, her three sizes technically still fall under this thread. Also Meltran cup sizes would probably have to use an upscaled version of the current size system, where the difference between underband size and overbust size in cm or inches would be multiplied by a certain amount (how much bigger is a meltran compared to a micron female again). In other words, in terms of proportion, Klan is probably around DDD meltran (6 inches difference between underband and overbust multiplied by how much bigger a meltran is compared to a micron female). To put it into mathematical terms: meltran cup size=(x-y)/z Where x is the overbust size, y is the underbust size and z is how much many times bigger a meltran is compared to a micron female. Then compare the resulting figure with the modern day cup size chart. Edited October 17, 2008 by d3v
badboy00z Posted October 17, 2008 Posted October 17, 2008 Where can I view this Macross Chronicles you speak of?
Graham Posted October 17, 2008 Posted October 17, 2008 Where can I view this Macross Chronicles you speak of? You can order them from either HMV Japan or Amazon Japan. Graham
Final Vegeta Posted October 17, 2008 Posted October 17, 2008 I have been a macross fan for some time and I have conceded to the fact that Macross does not emphasize on its technology simply because it is NOT a mecha show. It never was, it might be in the future (who knows?), but it still isn't. Valks are just the props in the show. I was just wondering what everyone else feels about this. Macross is a mecha show. I can tell because I watch mostly mecha shows. The only thing is that Macross is a show that you can watch with your girl, therefore there is very little nerdiness on screen. FV
sketchley Posted October 17, 2008 Posted October 17, 2008 Ah... forgot about that. I stand corrected. In M7 we do see reaction weapons being loaded into the the VF-17's internal weapons bays in the lower leg. Graham
sketchley Posted October 17, 2008 Posted October 17, 2008 I'm open either way (internal weapon pallets or no), but until some official looking stats come out specifically stating something, my opinion is that there are (as the logic of the series until now dictates that there should be). In regards to the stats that have been published (Great Mechanics.DX 6), they were incomplete in as much as the knife was not mentioned - something that has been seen in the anime, and pictured and mentioned in other publications. So... yeah, y'all don't have to agree with my opinion. Despite the VF-11B/C Thunderbolt not having internal weapon pallets (which house the missile launchers), they were later retrofitted into them (despite Kawamori's input and perhaps because of them being present on the VF-11MAXL Kai). Which says to me: as technology progresses in the Macross universe, things tend to shrink in size (engines) and more things get crammed into the airframe (internal weapon pallets). Who knows, maybe they will be retrofitted later? Maybe we'll see them in the movie? Maybe they aren't there and that one shot was an illusion done with mirrors. ) (...) Still, the VF-11B/C Thunderbolt (not the VF-11MAXL Custom) was built without internal missiles so it's not like a missile-less VF-25 Messiah would be without precedent. Considering internal missiles in the Super-less VF-25 were never seen, I think it would be disappointing to learn launchers are part of the official statistics. All the other VF-25 weapons were shown animated multiple times; even the rarely used hip and head guns were shown in action more than once. Perhaps the VF-25 internal missiles will join the ranks of the head cannon for the VF-11B/C Thunderbolt and the YF-21/VF-22 Sturmvogel II as an example of a weapon that's never been fired
Mr March Posted October 17, 2008 Posted October 17, 2008 wolfx Well, I'm not sure why Macross Zero was misinterpreted so badly as to imply it was Sara herself that has telekinetic powers. Everything in the M0 anime suggests the Island of Mayan was affected by the "gravity control" of the AFOS and Sara's link to the AFOS was clear. Ergo, the AFOS was making rocks float, not Sara. Macross is definitely a mecha show. But in contrast to something like Neon Genesis Evangelion or Gundam, the mecha are not the focus of the show. In that respect, Macross is somewhat more like Patlabor or Ghost in the Shell; Macross is a fictional universe where mecha exist and the Macross stories focus on characters employed in jobs requiring mecha operation. I'd just say we need to be patient. We'll get more statistics as the Chronicle continues and have more answers. The Chronicle is already embellishing certain aspects of Macross that we never thought would be, so there's more goodies forthcoming. There's too many gaps in official information to say much one way or the other. I concur with March on this topic. I just it's just us being a tech geek. now I do agree with Mr. March on the point that they should give equally detailed statistics for all the valks. I agree with Mr.March, statistic and all can show that a mecha is more than a mecha and also giving some pure nerd a job to do. I too love stats, as detailed as possible. Agree, comparing is fun. This Mr. March guy sounds like a real a-hole
RedWolf Posted October 17, 2008 Posted October 17, 2008 When Mao kissed Shin, Sara with some ESP connection to AFOS knew or saw it happened. It was like hell hath no fury...You know the rest. Got the impression that even before that the elder sister is jealous of the younger 11 year old sister's closeness to Shin.
Shaka_Z Posted October 17, 2008 Posted October 17, 2008 When Mao kissed Shin, Sara with some ESP connection to AFOS knew or saw it happened. It was like hell hath no fury...You know the rest. Got the impression that even before that the elder sister is jealous of the younger 11 year old sister's closeness to Shin. indeed... sara literally saw through the eyes of the AFOS at that moment. interestingly mao also had such a moment when the AFOS sent her a vision of the approaching AUN submarine. I sometimes wonder why so many think the rocks floating had anything directly to do with sara, when she was really just acting as a conduit for the AFOS's powers... for all we know this was a necessary role of the priestesses - perhaps their song served to keep the AFOS systems from rotting away from lack of use in much the same way that leaving a car sitting for years without so much as turning the engine over once in awhile will eventually leave the engine (and everything connected to it) a rusted brick.
ChronoReverse Posted October 17, 2008 Posted October 17, 2008 (edited) Hmm, I've been looking at some more numbers for thrust of the various VF's and there's even more funny things... A refresher (so that someone can correct me just in case I made a mistake): 1000kg = 9.8kN assuming Earth gravity F-22: 312+kN VF-0A: 297.8kN VF-0A "Angel": 900.4kN VF-1S: 245.0kN VF-1S "Super": 2842kN <=== Huh? YF-19: 836.9kN VF-19S: 1548kN VF-25: 3240kN VF-27: 5508kN With that kind of power for even the VF-1's FAST pack, a VF-25 with its FAST packs should easily keep up with the VF-27... In fact, the VF-1's FAST packs, with no technology improvment, would give the VF-25 more thrust than the VF-27 assuming you could jury-rig a fit. Edited October 17, 2008 by ChronoReverse
badboy00z Posted October 17, 2008 Posted October 17, 2008 Does AFOS stand for Alien from Outer Space?
Mr March Posted October 17, 2008 Posted October 17, 2008 (edited) Hmm, I've been looking at some more numbers for thrust of the various VF's and there's even more funny things... A refresher (so that someone can correct me just in case I made a mistake): 1000kg = 9.8kN assuming Earth gravity F-22: 312+kN VF-0A: 297.8kN VF-0A "Angel": 900.4kN VF-1S: 245.0kN VF-1S "Super": 2842kN <=== Huh? YF-19: 836.9kN VF-19S: 1548kN VF-25: 3240kN VF-27: 5508kN With that kind of power for even the VF-1's FAST pack, a VF-25 with its FAST packs should easily keep up with the VF-27... In fact, the VF-1's FAST packs, with no technology improvment, would give the VF-25 more thrust than the VF-27 assuming you could jury-rig a fit. Your calculations for the earlier variable fighters are off. You should have the following for thrust ratings in kN: VF-1S = 451.26 kN YF-19 = 1,324.35 kN VF-19S = 1,549.0 kN You want to know something about the Valkyries that's really going to bake your noodle? It appears all the Valkyries have "overboost" (VF-17D Nightmare "Overboost" control), not just the VF-1 Valkyrie. That would mean that technically all the engine thrust ratings should be doubled unless otherwise noted (like the Macross Zero mecha). After that, add 2,805.66 kN (VF-1 Super Pack rating) of thrust to each valkyrie... *mind explodes* Pretty scary how fast these Valkyries can fly huh? Edited October 17, 2008 by Mr March
ChronoReverse Posted October 17, 2008 Posted October 17, 2008 (edited) I forgot to double the number for VF-1S estimated 12,500 kg [x g] x 2; or estimated 25,000 kg [x g] x 2 in overboost 25000kg / 1000 x 9.8 x 2 = 490kN I used the atmosphere number for the YF-19 by mistake. The rest are just significant figures =P As for the "overboost" the question is whether the VF-25 and VF-27 numbers include that (probably not). But the point still remains about the VF-S "Super". It has more thrust than the YF-19 even WITH overboost! Edited October 17, 2008 by ChronoReverse
Shaka_Z Posted October 17, 2008 Posted October 17, 2008 (edited) I forgot to double the number for VF-1S 25000kg / 1000 x 9.8 x 2 = 490kN I used the atmosphere number for the YF-19 by mistake. The rest are just significant figures =P As for the "overboost" the question is whether the VF-25 and VF-27 numbers include that (probably not). But the point still remains about the VF-S "Super". It has more thrust than the YF-19 even WITH overboost! Your calculations for the earlier variable fighters are off. You should have the following for thrust ratings in kN: VF-1S = 451.26 kN YF-19 = 1,324.35 kN VF-19S = 1,549.0 kN You want to know something about the Valkyries that's really going to bake your noodle? It appears all the Valkyries have "overboost" (VF-17D Nightmare "Overboost" control), not just the VF-1 Valkyrie. That would mean that technically all the engine thrust ratings should be doubled unless otherwise noted (like the Macross Zero mecha). After that, add 2,805.66 kN (VF-1 Super Pack rating) of thrust to each valkyrie... *mind explodes* Pretty scary how fast these Valkyries can fly huh? smile.gif I feel the need to remind you that thrust force is only part of the equation, as the exhaust velocity of the engine places an absolute upper limit on how fast a vehicle can travel (ie the maximum ΔV) after expending all onboard propellant. it doesnt matter how much thrust you have if you use up all your propellant before you get anywhere. I would really love to know the Isp values for the various valks when in space, as well as for thier FAST and super packs, but I fear we shall never know. I have the feeling that the VF-1 super packs have really crappy Isp performance compared to their own fusion turbines. good for brief periods of insane acceleration, but not good for achieving really high speeds. Edited October 17, 2008 by Shaka_Z
ChronoReverse Posted October 17, 2008 Posted October 17, 2008 (edited) I'm thinking acceleration when I talk about thrust myself With that said, slower exhaust velocity can yield the same acceletation as a faster exhaust. After all, it's momentum that matters here. Not sure what you mean by absolute velocity limit though. Ignoring relativistic effects (let's pretend we're not trying to go fast than 0.25c), acceleration is acceleration no matter how fast you're going. Edited October 17, 2008 by ChronoReverse
azrael Posted October 17, 2008 Author Posted October 17, 2008 good for brief periods of insane acceleration, but not good for achieving really high speeds. Isn't that the point of the boosters?
ChronoReverse Posted October 17, 2008 Posted October 17, 2008 (edited) Yeah, they only last 2.5 minutes at full boost according to the Compendium. Still, you could get a lot done in that time =) Hmm, assuming no drag, a VF-S "Super" could achieve in excess of 34,104kph or 21,191mph in 150 seconds in space from a dead stop. And I didn't account for the loss of mass from fuel expenditure. Edited October 17, 2008 by ChronoReverse
Shaka_Z Posted October 17, 2008 Posted October 17, 2008 (edited) I'm thinking acceleration when I talk about thrust myself With that said, slower exhaust velocity can yield the same acceletation as a faster exhaust. After all, it's momentum that matters here. all things being equal - ie engine material thermal limits - a slower exhaust will in fact always produce more thrust force than a faster exhaust. however, note my response to the following: Not sure what you mean by absolute velocity limit though. Ignoring relativistic effects (let's pretend we're not trying to go fast than 0.25c), acceleration is acceleration no matter how fast you're going. when I say an absolute velocity limit, you need to remember the phrase after expending all onboard propellant. in order to reach the same velocity an engine with a slower exhaust velocity has to flow an exponentially greater amount of mass than the engine with higher exhaust velocity, regardless of the acceleration rate. for instance, the space shuttle engines have to flow roughly 11x the mass of the loaded (but unfueled) mass of the vehicle to reach orbital velocity, regardless of the effects of gravity - averaged together, the main engines and the SRBs have an exhaust velocity of no greater than 4000m/s, so to reach orbital velocity of roughly 10km/s the orbiter/tank/SRB combo has to carry (the dry mass of the orbiter)^2.5 in propellant mass. (iirc... I dont have my copy of space propulsion analysis and design handy atm) if the shuttle had an exhaust velocity of 10km/s the amount of propellant it would have to carry would only be equal to its' own dry mass. like I said earlier, I would love to see Isp figures for the various valks, along with propellant type and tankage specs. that way we would truly be able to figure out how fast they are... atm we can only determine how quick they are off a line. Edited October 17, 2008 by Shaka_Z
Shaka_Z Posted October 17, 2008 Posted October 17, 2008 (edited) Yeah, they only last 2.5 minutes at full boost according to the Compendium. Still, you could get a lot done in that time =) Hmm, assuming no drag, a VF-S "Super" could achieve in excess of 34,104kph or 21,191mph in 150 seconds in space from a dead stop. And I didn't account for the loss of mass from fuel expenditure. depending on the exhaust velocity and amount of propellant carried, the super packs may not be good for that kind of speed... acceleration will begin to degrade once the exhaust velocity of the drive has been exceeded, requiring ever more propellant to accelerate more as vehicle velocity increases. it is not a linear progression, and at some point even the reduction in vehicle mass will not be able to offset the inefficiency. that 2.5 minute endurance might not even get you to half the top speed you stated. [edit] I just calced it out - if in fact your scenario above was valid, it would put the exhaust velocity of the VF-1 super pack at roughly 9500m/s - definitely nice, but I would take this as being an upper bound estimate. it is highly unlikely that the super pack could carry enough propellant mass even then to reach that velocity - tank volume limits apply. if the pack had significanly higher Ve than that, it might be do-able though. Edited October 17, 2008 by Shaka_Z
ChronoReverse Posted October 17, 2008 Posted October 17, 2008 (edited) You assertions don't really apply. In space there's no frame of reference so the ONLY thing that matters at non-relativistic velocities is the impulse. Therefore, you can have a more massive propellant at lower velocity which would be the equivalent of a high velocity but lower mass propellant. But that's beside the point For the VF-1S "Super", the only thing that matters is that it can sustain a force of 2842kN for 150s. This is a given fact so we have to take it face value. The exhaust velocity does not play a part in this. Neither does the mass. This is because we already know the sustained force and how long it can be exerted. Using the inaccurate (but on the low side) assumption the mass of the valkyrie is not changing, the calculation is elementary since we're talking about space. Edited October 18, 2008 by ChronoReverse
Morpheus Posted October 18, 2008 Posted October 18, 2008 VF-1S: 245.0kN VF-1S "Super": 2842kN <=== Huh? VF-25: 3240kN VF-27: 5508kN With that kind of power for even the VF-1's FAST pack, a VF-25 with its FAST packs should easily keep up with the VF-27... In fact, the VF-1's FAST packs, with no technology improvment, would give the VF-25 more thrust than the VF-27 assuming you could jury-rig a fit. Yup, VF-1 Super is very powerful in term of engines, however I doubt it will match VF-27 performance. VF-27 is equipped with a much more advanced avionics and vernier control, making it like a Bee buzzing around in a battlefield. A VF-1 Super will perform like...a...manned hypersonic missiles...loaded with missiles
Mr March Posted October 18, 2008 Posted October 18, 2008 (edited) Haven't we been over this before (in the ion drive discussion a while back)? At any rate, I was writing of acceleration as ChronoReverse pointed out, not velocity, which is pretty much pointless in Macross since a) it's space, b) there doesn't appear to be any kind of ordinary conventional limit to the thrust/operating time of a Valkyrie and c) we're dealing with technologies of extreme efficiency unlike our conventional propulsion technologies. Also, we're not talking sustained space flight velocities over lengthy periods of time; these are combat craft where least time to fastest acceleration is the point of design, correct? Regarding the VF-1S Super, yes it has very high thrust, but it also requires very high mass to achieve that acceleration. The acceleration that the VF-25 and VF-27 can accomplish (or the YF-19 for that matter) is done so with the benefit of much less mass than the VF-1. Edited October 18, 2008 by Mr March
Shaka_Z Posted October 18, 2008 Posted October 18, 2008 Haven't we been over this before (in the ion drive discussion a while back)? At any rate, I was writing of acceleration as ChronoReverse pointed out, not velocity, which is pretty much pointless in Macross since a) it's space, b) there doesn't appear to be any kind of ordinary conventional limit to the thrust/operating time of a Valkyrie and c) we're dealing with technologies of extreme efficiency unlike our conventional propulsion technologies. Also, we're not talking sustained space flight velocities over lengthy periods of time; these are combat craft where least time to fastest acceleration is the point of design, correct? Regarding the VF-1S Super, yes it has very high thrust, but it also requires very high mass to achieve that acceleration. The acceleration that the VF-25 and VF-27 can accomplish (or the YF-19 for that matter) is done so with the benefit of much less mass than the VF-1. it all depends on the nature of the comparison... I am basically thinking of a race. line up all the valks, have your favorite singer wave the flag and whoever crosses the finish line first wins. depending on the length of the course and whether there are any curves or obstacles, different valks have a shot at winning. in an all-out drag race over a very short distance, the VF-1 Super has a chance of edging out even the VF-27 (though my bets are on the VF-25 super). the longer and more complex the course gets, the more the later designs pull away. as to the frame of reference, in this instance the frame is defined by the starting line where all the craft have 0 velocity relative to each other. there is always a frame of reference to be had - even in space.
Mr March Posted October 18, 2008 Posted October 18, 2008 We'd need statistics on all manner of things to calculate that kind of a comparison and we barely have enough for a thrust-to-weight ratio. I think we're out of luck.
ChronoReverse Posted October 18, 2008 Posted October 18, 2008 (edited) in an all-out drag race over a very short distance, the VF-1 Super has a chance of edging out even the VF-27 Eh? But it doesn't. Not only does the Super exert less force, it's also over three times as massive. Since the startup time for the engines to full boost is negligible, there's not much left to guesswork. We'd need statistics on all manner of things to calculate that kind of a comparison and we barely have enough for a thrust-to-weight ratio. I think we're out of luck. Indeed the only thing we actually can calculate and say for certain is a straight line drag race =/ Edited October 18, 2008 by ChronoReverse
Final Vegeta Posted October 18, 2008 Posted October 18, 2008 VF-1S "Super": 2842kN <=== Huh? VF-27: 5508kN With that kind of power for even the VF-1's FAST pack, a VF-25 with its FAST packs should easily keep up with the VF-27... First of all, the VF-27 still have two times the T/W ratio. Second of all, the VF-1 with FAST Packs has nearly four times the mass of a VF-27. You can conclude your assertion is unfounded. FV
badboy00z Posted October 18, 2008 Posted October 18, 2008 How does one calculate acceleration/ speed given thrust and weight only? Is it possible or does there need to be other variables?
sketchley Posted October 18, 2008 Posted October 18, 2008 (edited) F=ma (or a = F/m) Where F = force, m = Mass, & a = acceleration. Of course, this only provides instantaneous accleration, and nothing more. Speed is an entirely different ballgame and requires a lot more hard math. If you want to calculate other things, like the maximum possible velocity, you will need other variables. For some VFs, we have the majority of information needed (the SUper VF-1 has both a maximum thrust and a time limit), but for many VFs, we don't have enough or even any information. This is, of course, not including things like the coefficient of friction (neglible outside of an atmosphere) and the force of gravity*. In other words, we can get numbers for limited situations (ex no friction, no gravity, straight line flight) for a limited number of VFs. *a VF will accelerate faster towards a space carrier and slower away from it, but as the amount is so small, there's no need to figure that out other than the fun of figuring it out. Edited October 18, 2008 by sketchley
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