Morpheus Posted October 2, 2008 Posted October 2, 2008 Apologies if this has been posted already, if not...... 21st Century EX Gear FTW! It was posted on the science mega thread few months ago, but still a great news. Now if only those tanks were reaction missiles and the guy are holding gunpod, I'll order one set for myself
Morpheus Posted October 2, 2008 Posted October 2, 2008 Agreed. After that level of absurdity, almost anything seems plausible by comparison. A Valkyrie cockpit wouldn't allow for G Gundam crazyness in any event; there's not enough room, even in Battroid configuration. But it could explain punches and kicks and especially much more complex moves, like block and parry. It would be especially useful to explain how Alto in his VF-25 and Brera in his VF-27 managed to dive toward each other in space and interlock the fingers of their mecha, engaging in a pushing match against each other. That kind of reflex fast, yet finely coordinated action would be a fine candidate for motion capture cockpit controls. We haven't seen HD art of the VF-25 cockpit right? I wonder what sort of control are besides the EX-Gear system. Question: AFAIK, Brera use his implant to connect with the VF-27 just like the BDI-BCS, but how did Ranka (infected only by V-type virus) manage to interface with the VF-27 control system?
hobbes221 Posted October 2, 2008 Posted October 2, 2008 (edited) Going alone with what Morpheus said about the BDI system, I have had the idea for some time that all VFs have had a type of BDI but it would have been more of a 'reflexive' system. The pilot would make gross or general commands with the controls and the finer points would be picked up by the system. If this was the case then the problems found along the testing of the YF-21 could be explained by the fact that the -21's system was asking for the pilot to do nothing but think the maneuver through the whole way, instead of the computer having a general idea from the commands given by the flight control it was having to filter the command strait from the pilot, as in when -21 pushed the -11 into the ground it could not tell the difference from just a random thought from an actual command. If Guld was to have had his hands on the controls and not moved them then by my line of thinking he could have had all the bad, evil thoughts about Isamu that he wanted and as long as he didn't move the stick everything would have been good. Anyways just a idea I had. Question: AFAIK, Brera use his implant to connect with the VF-27 just like the BDI-BCS, but how did Ranka (infected only by V-type virus) manage to interface with the VF-27 control system? He pulled a 'Borg' on her and now she is one of them -Edit- (Whacks self on forehead) Oh man I can see it now, someone starting up the "Ranka 'Resistance is futile' Lee Fan Club" Edited October 2, 2008 by hobbes221
daflip702 Posted October 2, 2008 Posted October 2, 2008 I noticed that moment as well, DHX. Posted it on another board, but haven't mentioned it here. Alto's VF-25 Messiah grabbed the sniper gun pod that was thrown to him by Kuran. Inside the cockpit, Alto reached out with his arm and grabbed the air, yet the Valkyrie's arm and hand followed his motions and caught the sniper gun. I wonder, is this "motion capture" technology? Perhaps the cockpit computer is monitoring pilot movements and responds to them when quick and complex movements are required, movements that might otherwise be too complicated for throttle-and-stick control? It would explain quite a bit about the complex maneuvers that a valkyrie can perform. So how did Isamu used the flight stick to melee hit Guld with his gunpod? How did Hikaru Grab Minmay? I think there must be a way to simulate arm and leg movement in the earlier VF's. My take is that there must be some sort of control system with set controls to perform close combat manuvers and human like tasks. A possbile way is to have different modes for VF. A targeting and weapons mode for shooting, a close combat mode that can be triggered with proximity, and another "human mode" for tasks. All controlled by sitck you ask? Well the tasks will be preset to different movements or buttons on the stick. Basically the pilot inputs the task to be done and the valk does the rest. In other words....just like playing a video game. Press a button the character shoots, press another button, the character jumps.....problem solved.
hobbes221 Posted October 2, 2008 Posted October 2, 2008 In other words....just like playing a video game. Press a button the character shoots, press another button, the character jumps.....problem solved. My only problem with that is looking at today's fighters the stick and throttle are already covered in buttons and switches used to fly and fight. I don't think there is much more space to add anything, you could get around that by having multi-use controls that have different uses in different modes but I feel that it would very hard to keep everything straight. As an idea of how confusing having switches do different things in different modes can be, I have heard for guys who were backseaters in the old F-4G Wild Weasels that their gear had around one million different configurations depending on what controls were in what setting. Not saying that you or anyone else is wrong or anything like that, just more of it's most likely to be a mix of everything we have talked about and more. Who knows SK himself might be lurking around here building up ideas for that VF tech manuel that I have been dreaming about. (DO YOU HEAR ME KAWAMORI! If not that at least a new big fat Macross art book, please, I beg you! )
Fade Rathnik Posted October 2, 2008 Posted October 2, 2008 So how did Isamu used the flight stick to melee hit Guld with his gunpod? How did Hikaru Grab Minmay? I think there must be a way to simulate arm and leg movement in the earlier VF's. My take is that there must be some sort of control system with set controls to perform close combat manuvers and human like tasks. A possbile way is to have different modes for VF. A targeting and weapons mode for shooting, a close combat mode that can be triggered with proximity, and another "human mode" for tasks. All controlled by sitck you ask? Well the tasks will be preset to different movements or buttons on the stick. Basically the pilot inputs the task to be done and the valk does the rest. In other words....just like playing a video game. Press a button the character shoots, press another button, the character jumps.....problem solved. Add that system in with one of these and there you go you get to know the menus and i am sure you could fly through commands.
Mr March Posted October 2, 2008 Posted October 2, 2008 So how did Isamu used the flight stick to melee hit Guld with his gunpod? How did Hikaru Grab Minmay? I think there must be a way to simulate arm and leg movement in the earlier VF's. My take is that there must be some sort of control system with set controls to perform close combat manuvers and human like tasks. A possbile way is to have different modes for VF. A targeting and weapons mode for shooting, a close combat mode that can be triggered with proximity, and another "human mode" for tasks. All controlled by sitck you ask? Well the tasks will be preset to different movements or buttons on the stick. Basically the pilot inputs the task to be done and the valk does the rest. In other words....just like playing a video game. Press a button the character shoots, press another button, the character jumps.....problem solved. Let's keep in mind our chronology here. Motion capture is a theory I just came up with based on an event in Macross Frontier, not something that happened 25 years ago in SDF Macross. I don't recall Hikaru ever reaching his arm out into the air inside his cockpit to grab a gun pod that was thrown at his Valkyrie. Besides, if we're looking for a theory that covers everything in every Macross production, that isn't going to happen. Not even Kawamori and Co. can seem to manage continuity like that. My point is that the cockpit control is possibly a mix of throttle-stick and motion capture, not one replacing the other. I'm trying to explain how certain movements that would be beyond a throttle-and-stick control might work. Hikaru picking up Minmay, Alto grabbing Ranka and other sorts of maneuvers we NOT reflex actions and neither was Isamu vs. Guld in the gun pod wrestling match. Now, when Isamu initially flipped over his gun pod with a flick of his wrist and then caught it, that could have very well been a suitable maneuver for motion capture.
RedWolf Posted October 2, 2008 Posted October 2, 2008 Motion capture isn't too farfetch considering they have holographic dresses. Which could account for the look of Brera's cockpit and why Ranka looks to have not a helmet.
d3v Posted October 2, 2008 Posted October 2, 2008 I believe we were discussing this same issue of valk control in another thread some weeks back. Last I remember, we were all speculating that it was some sort of AI system that was able to predict what the pilot wanted through a combination of certain inputs, eye movement tracking, etc.
DHX Posted October 2, 2008 Posted October 2, 2008 maybe it's a combination of things the control stick system used for directional and main control systems with the EX gear system acting as a secondary interface providing finer control via motion capture and perhaps a rudementry optical interface that initiates a slave system control
Mr March Posted October 2, 2008 Posted October 2, 2008 Well, technically the cockpit controls topic has been discussed here many times. Most of us agree Valkyrie control is too complex to be handled the way it's shown in Macross, but we're supposed to suspend our disbelief. I just like trying to rationalize every part of the cockpit control I see to come up with theories that might reduce pilot work load and make controlling a Valkyrie more possible than not. We've had motion sensitive controls since Macross Plus and I myself have mentioned how such controls might have a greater role for complex maneuvers. But Macross Frontier episode 25 seems to be the first case in which the cockpit control includes some kind of explicit motion capture system. Artificial Intelligence could very well be a feature of Valkyrie control as well; again, in Macross Plus the YF-19 official statistics make mention of Super AI control avionics which likely reduces pilot workload or could even perform many automated features.
RedWolf Posted October 2, 2008 Posted October 2, 2008 You know I've been wondering about the performance of the X-9 Ghost descendants. Namely the AIF-9B, AIF-7S and the V-9. How will they fair against each other if they were off their leash? Equally? Or is one better than the others?
Sulendil Ang Posted October 2, 2008 Posted October 2, 2008 You know I've been wondering about the performance of the X-9 Ghost descendants. Namely the AIF-9B, AIF-7S and the V-9. How will they fair against each other if they were off their leash? Equally? Or is one better than the others? May I ask which designation is for which Ghost? I know about AIF-7S and V-9, but I knows nothing about AIF-9B. I presume that AIF-9B is the Ghost used by Luca?
RedWolf Posted October 2, 2008 Posted October 2, 2008 Macross VFX-2 Basically the AIF-9B is the same model body of the X-9 Ghost but is dumbed down. It needs pilot input.
azrael Posted October 2, 2008 Author Posted October 2, 2008 Just to end the small debates on a few things from the DVD/Blu-ray Vol. 2 liner notes. 1) The VF-25's gunpod opens that lower cover for cooling. 2) The knife can be used in combination with a pin-point barrier. 3) The VF-25 has a pin-point barrier system. Mentions it's usage with the shield and reinforcing the knife.
Mr March Posted October 2, 2008 Posted October 2, 2008 Awww, that's a little disappointing. I was hoping they'd make the knife some variation of energy converting armor. Oh well, Pin-Point Barrier blade it is! It's VERY nice to have some confirmation in either case.
d3v Posted October 3, 2008 Posted October 3, 2008 (edited) Well it does make more sense from a maintenance point of view, since with a PPB system, the blade itself doesn't really touch whatever it's cutting trhough which means less wear and tear on it. Edited October 3, 2008 by d3v
daflip702 Posted October 3, 2008 Posted October 3, 2008 Let's keep in mind our chronology here. Motion capture is a theory I just came up with based on an event in Macross Frontier, not something that happened 25 years ago in SDF Macross. I don't recall Hikaru ever reaching his arm out into the air inside his cockpit to grab a gun pod that was thrown at his Valkyrie. Besides, if we're looking for a theory that covers everything in every Macross production, that isn't going to happen. Not even Kawamori and Co. can seem to manage continuity like that. My point is that the cockpit control is possibly a mix of throttle-stick and motion capture, not one replacing the other. I'm trying to explain how certain movements that would be beyond a throttle-and-stick control might work. Hikaru picking up Minmay, Alto grabbing Ranka and other sorts of maneuvers we NOT reflex actions and neither was Isamu vs. Guld in the gun pod wrestling match. Now, when Isamu initially flipped over his gun pod with a flick of his wrist and then caught it, that could have very well been a suitable maneuver for motion capture. "Lets keep in mind our chronology here..bleh bleh bleh".....WTF did that come from? Seems like I PO'd another one or something. Those questions about Hikaru and Guld are all rhetorical. Anyways, I was trying to explain what could possibly be true. I'm not saying it is true and that's that.....I'm welcome to all theories. I actually like your theory on "motion capture" but, like you said earlier, not for the VF-1 since no evidence was found to support that. As for SK and Co. He was studing to be an engineer. I'm pretty sure he thought of things to back up his work in the technical sense. Besides....you said it yourself that you like rationalizing things......things that maybe isn't there(anime magic)....I'm doing it for my own amusement and to pass time till i find out when is that Bandai DX VF-25 coming out. My theory, that was stated earlier, borrows some of it's technical sense from video games i.e. Virtual On(pretty cool mech game i might add). So in the meantime......If i scratch my ASS-1 in a Valk....then the "motion capture" will do the same....right? Also rhetorical.
Anon Posted October 3, 2008 Posted October 3, 2008 But Macross Frontier episode 25 seems to be the first case in which the cockpit control includes some kind of explicit motion capture system. Artificial Intelligence could very well be a feature of Valkyrie control as well; again, in Macross Plus the YF-19 official statistics make mention of Super AI control avionics which likely reduces pilot workload or could even perform many automated features. In ep7, when Alto connected his ex-suit to Luca's VF didn't it show that there was mocap function to the Valk?
Mr March Posted October 3, 2008 Posted October 3, 2008 So in the meantime......If i scratch my ASS-1 in a Valk....then the "motion capture" will do the same....right? Also rhetorical. Uh, okay. *walks away facepalming* WHEE!!! In ep7, when Alto connected his ex-suit to Luca's VF didn't it show that there was mocap function to the Valk? The EX-Gear follows the pilots movements and a VF-25 control system can be slaved to it. Like you said, we saw that in both episode 7 when Alto took over Luca's RVF-25 and in episode 25 when Alto got remote controlled his VF-25F. That's been clear for a while. What I was talking about was when the pilot isn't wearing his EX-Gear inside the cockpit. In episode 25 Alto reaches out his arm and grabs the air inside his cockpit; outside, the VF-25F follows his movements and the right arm unit grabs the sniper gun pod thrown from Kuran's VF-25G. There had to be some way the Alto's VF-25F was monitoring Alto's movements and mimicked his motion to grab the sniper gun pod. I was thinking some kind of motion capture system. But that leads me into another thought; is the flight suit portion of the EX-Gear the part of the outfit that monitors the wearer's movements? If that was the case, then Alto grabbing the gun pod wasn't a motion capture system but just the EX-Gear flight suit monitoring his movements and responding accordingly.
Master Dex Posted October 3, 2008 Posted October 3, 2008 So in the meantime......If i scratch my ASS-1 in a Valk....then the "motion capture" will do the same....right? Also rhetorical. How crass . Anyway, March's theories are as good as any. I'd say motion capture is probably the best bet but it could be a number of things possibly. I have some ideas but the most likely has already been said anyway.
hobbes221 Posted October 3, 2008 Posted October 3, 2008 But that leads me into another thought; is the flight suit portion of the EX-Gear the part of the outfit that monitors the wearer's movements? If that was the case, then Alto grabbing the gun pod wasn't a motion capture system but just the EX-Gear flight suit monitoring his movements and responding accordingly. Good theories as always Mr March. Now I'm kinda liking the idea of both a motion capture system and the flight suit working together as to cross check each other to help lessen any errors that could happen.
Shaka_Z Posted October 3, 2008 Posted October 3, 2008 (edited) if you guys notice, thre are certain portions of the ex-gear flightsuit that bear a remarkable resemblance to motion capture transponders - most notably on the wrists and ankles. it is possible that at least for the ex-gear system, the suit monitors both absolute position of certain body parts via these transponders, and also monitors neuromuscular activity for smaller appendages like the fingers via other sensors in the suit itself. I've long thought that the neuromuscular monitoring would be critical to any kind of battroid type mecha that isnt built like a masamume shirow style landmate - it would actually be fairly straightforward to implement as well, since the tech for monitoring that activity has been around so long as to be nearly ubiquitous (heartrate monitors for instance), and doesnt have to try to make sense of higher brain functions like some other implementations I have seen like the BDI of the YF-21. the transponders on the ex-gear flightsuit probably monitor the muscle impulses of the lower leg and foot as well as the overall position of the ankle itself, while the wrist units likely handle those tasks for the finger, hand and wrist groups. certainly there are more transponders present than those (they just happen to be the most obvious ones). Edited October 3, 2008 by Shaka_Z
DHX Posted October 3, 2008 Posted October 3, 2008 rewatching the scene in ep 25 if you check the scene just before he goes gerwalk mode Alto's valk mimicked his motion to the point micheals rifle was held across his chest it's arm having mimicked alto's motions perfectly intresting, no?
badboy00z Posted October 3, 2008 Posted October 3, 2008 The buttons on the control stick seem to be pressure sensitive that controls how much the fingers move. We saw that in episode one.
Kronnang Dunn Posted October 4, 2008 Posted October 4, 2008 (edited) Well... changing to "Vajra" mecha now... I believe that the final episode of Frontier confirmed that The Vajra use Super Dimension energy and that the Protoculture started using SD energy technologies after researching the Vajra, The Birdman from Zero being an advanced Protoculture sentient mecha designed to resemble the Vajra Queen? Edited October 4, 2008 by Kronnang Dunn
RedWolf Posted October 4, 2008 Posted October 4, 2008 Well... changing to "Vajra" mecha now... I believe that the final episode of Frontier confirmed that The Vajra use Super Dimension energy and that the Protoculture started using SD energy technologies after researching the Vajra, The Birdman being an advanced Protoculture mecha designed to resemble the Vajra Queen? More like to me they are using the Super Dimension for networking. But they could be using Super Dimension Energy as well. It could explain the Vajra's replication ability. Converting SD energy into matter? Protodevlin are true Super Dimension creatures since they are energy beings. The Vahla Ena or Space Whales are in between since they are both energy and organic.
Kronnang Dunn Posted October 4, 2008 Posted October 4, 2008 (edited) "Lets keep in mind our chronology here..bleh bleh bleh".....WTF did that come from? Seems like I PO'd another one or something. Those questions about Hikaru and Guld are all rhetorical. Anyways, I was trying to explain what could possibly be true. I'm not saying it is true and that's that.....I'm welcome to all theories. I actually like your theory on "motion capture" but, like you said earlier, not for the VF-1 since no evidence was found to support that. As for SK and Co. He was studing to be an engineer. I'm pretty sure he thought of things to back up his work in the technical sense. Besides....you said it yourself that you like rationalizing things......things that maybe isn't there(anime magic)....I'm doing it for my own amusement and to pass time till i find out when is that Bandai DX VF-25 coming out. My theory, that was stated earlier, borrows some of it's technical sense from video games i.e. Virtual On(pretty cool mech game i might add). So in the meantime......If i scratch my ASS-1 in a Valk....then the "motion capture" will do the same....right? Also rhetorical. Hehehe... I hardly doubt there was any motion capture computerized bodysuit at all back in 1979-1981... More like to me they are using the Super Dimension for networking. But they could be using Super Dimension Energy as well. It could explain the Vajra's replication ability. Converting SD energy into matter? Protodevlin are true Super Dimension creatures since they are energy beings. The Vahla Ena or Space Whales are in between since they are both energy and organic. Err... actually The Vajra do space fold... And AFAIK fold technology is based in Super Dimension physics... and the main guns of some Zentradi warships (created and designed by the Protoculture) and the UnSpacy/NUNS warships they originated are in fact Super Dimension energy based weapons... Is all in the Macross Compendium... And by the Super Dimension life form moniker I think Grace O'Connor meant that the Vajra are creatures from this universe that actually use Super Dimension energy/power... And according to her speech the Protoculture came to fear, adore and defy their power to the extent of imitating its form... and an image of the birdman from Zero was shown during her speech... so I believe that to be a confirmation of sorts for Protoculture Super Dimension technology being derived from their own Vajra research. Edited October 4, 2008 by Kronnang Dunn
sketchley Posted October 4, 2008 Posted October 4, 2008 That's not to say that the idea didn't exist in someone's imagination. How many master-slave arm power suits (GUGES-D type) (heck, bipedal robots of any kind) do we see in the here and now? Even the power suits in Bubblegum Crisis were originally only an idea, and look where that's gone now - a real life power suit, which has inspired anime (EX gear)! (Though, I'm not trying saying that Bubblegum Crisis originated the idea of power suits.) Hehehe... I hardly doubt there was any motion capture computerized bodysuit at all back in 1979-1981...
grss1982 Posted October 4, 2008 Posted October 4, 2008 (edited) Anyways...I was suprised no one mentioned this....RVF-171EX in Gerwalk Mode!!! It looks weird though with that lower radar aray hanging between its legs. EDIT: Correction of RVF-171 designation thanks RedWolf. Edited October 4, 2008 by grss1982
RedWolf Posted October 4, 2008 Posted October 4, 2008 Yep the Megatron syndrome. Technically that is the RVF-171EX.
Sulendil Ang Posted October 4, 2008 Posted October 4, 2008 Yep the Megatron syndrome. Technically that is the RVF-171EX. What is Megatron syndrome?
RedWolf Posted October 4, 2008 Posted October 4, 2008 What is Megatron syndrome? Ever seen the original Megaron toy and his uh...trigger? Pretty much like the RVF-171 and RVF-171EX. No wonder they didn't show the Gerwalk mode in the magazine.
Zinjo Posted October 4, 2008 Posted October 4, 2008 And by the Super Dimension life form moniker I think Grace O'Connor meant that the Vajra are creatures from this universe that actually use Super Dimension energy/power... And according to her speech the Protoculture came to fear, adore and defy their power to the extent of imitating its form... and an image of the birdman from Zero was shown during her speech... so I believe that to be a confirmation of sorts for Protoculture Super Dimension technology being derived from their own Vajra research. I suspect Grace meant that the Vajra were the first natural creatures to utilize SD energy. Possibly their SD organs are what inspired the development of the artificial ones used in the EVIL series. I agree that the PC may well have derived their SD technology from Vajra research, however their "fear" was most likely borne out of their understanding of the fold network they could create and it's potential perversion into a means of slavery for the galaxy as well as the potential (that Grace demonstrated) that with such a network a group could wage a battle simultaneously on hundreds of fronts. I tend to suspect that the fold network is what sparked the PC civil war. If humanity could figure out the malevolent uses for the fold network, no doubt a faction of the PC did as well.
Mr March Posted October 4, 2008 Posted October 4, 2008 I don't think placing a larger gun on the VF-171EX creates some issue of over-the-top firepower. It certainly wasn't blowing up carriers like the beam cannon on the VF-27. The EX cannon was simply a bigger gun, which is exactly the kind of weapon one makes when the enemy has stronger armored vehicles. The EX cannon didn't even seem all that impressive a gun; it actually seemed somewhat awkward to use and much slower firing than a gun pod. But that was likely the trade-off to make a heavy beam gun that could penetrate the powerful armor of the Vajra. Perhaps the EX cannon is an example why "large" beam guns in the Macross universe are not widely used, because they are heavy, slow firing and typically more firepower than is needed against most enemy vehicles.
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