Macross Frontier Mecha/Technology Thread III *Read 1st Post*

[grss1982]

Is it even accurate to call /anyone/ who flies a VF-25 cannon fodder? I don't remember seeing one go down.

EDIT: Not counting alto >_>

Now that you mention it. We did never see any VF-25 "Brownies" get blown up. The cannon fodders that got blown up were all VF-171, VF-171EX, and VF-27.

Edited September 27, 2008 by grss1982

[Xeros]

I think Macoss Quarter attack list should be included the PPB bayonet-like and "Macross Attack" with the carrier arm and destroid squad.

And the machida punch "NMC Version" to Battle Frontier

[RedWolf]

May the Queen Mother and the Great White bless wherever Misa Hayase Ichijyo is.

For coming up with the original Daedalus Attack.

[Ghost Train]

Just noticed that in the Macross Mecha Manual site the engine thrust uses the kilo-Newton unit (1,620 kN x2), whereas in the past, most valks were rated with just the kilogram (kg).

I'm a bit physics illiterate, but have always thought of Thrust as being a force, therefore reported in Newtons like how it's listed for the vf-25, but it seems even engines of rl aircraft use a mass definition, like "so and so engine produces 35,000 lb's or kg's of thrust." I was just wondering, as I wanted a figure to compare the Frontier-generation valkyries to the previous generation's arsenal (VF-11, 19, 21/22)... as I'm not convinced that that the 25 is vastly superior to a 19.

[ChronoReverse]

Go back a few pages, the calculations have already been shown. In any case, it's trivial to convert from kg to N assuming they're using Earth as the reference.

[zathras]

is there a list of tech that's been used in the Macross series...for example the Zentraedi beams that bends towards their target, another thing is the holo-matter that Sheryl seems to have gained when her holographic dress becomes real after she's out of the holographic stage...

i can only assume that the Macross universe has a limited trek level holo-technology...while it doesn't use replication technology similar to star trek, the holo-clothing materials seems to be durable enough to be worn out of the holo-stage...

also the way the ships in Macross Frontier are folding...while the original macross&macross7 ships literally appear&disappear when folding, the Frontier's folding tech seems more similar to a slipstream tech like in StarTrek Voyager or Andromeda or Earth: The Final Conflict's interdimensional travel...guess i can only assume that the difference might be that the new fold engines can change directions while the old fold engines are only one way with a bit of time being experienced(which is somewhat similar to the nBSG fold tech but without the time experience during travel)....

anyway i'm hoping that some sort of lists of tech with examples&definition would be posted on the first page of this thread to make it easier to find...

[ChrisG]

also the way the ships in Macross Frontier are folding...while the original macross&macross7 ships literally appear&disappear when folding, the Frontier's folding tech seems more similar to a slipstream tech like in StarTrek Voyager or Andromeda or Earth: The Final Conflict's interdimensional travel...guess i can only assume that the difference might be that the new fold engines can change directions while the old fold engines are only one way with a bit of time being experienced(which is somewhat similar to the nBSG fold tech but without the time experience during travel)...

Lacking any other evidence, I think the change in folding probably is more a visual thing than something technical. I doubt fold technology changes so much between Dynamite 7 and Frontier that the entire way it works is different. If it is just visual design, I'd equate it to the original Star Trek - in the TV series, you never saw the Enterprise do anything special when it went to warp speed, but then they totally changed how that looked with the movies.

[Mr March]

Just noticed that in the Macross Mecha Manual site the engine thrust uses the kilo-Newton unit (1,620 kN x2), whereas in the past, most valks were rated with just the kilogram (kg).

I'm a bit physics illiterate, but have always thought of Thrust as being a force, therefore reported in Newtons like how it's listed for the vf-25, but it seems even engines of rl aircraft use a mass definition, like "so and so engine produces 35,000 lb's or kg's of thrust." I was just wondering, as I wanted a figure to compare the Frontier-generation valkyries to the previous generation's arsenal (VF-11, 19, 21/22)... as I'm not convinced that that the 25 is vastly superior to a 19.

From what I can remember, both Russia and Japan used the kg rating for measuring thrust decades ago in aircraft and rocket design. I'm not sure why this unusual form of thrust measurement was ever used, but it is apparently legitimate. It's basically the same as using pounds of thrust, but it uses the metric measurement of kilograms. Tomino and Co. adopted it for use in the fictional statistics of Mobile Suit Gundam and Kawamori followed suit with Macross.

Back to Macross, rest assured the Frontier-era VF-25 Messiah is VERY superior to the YF-19/VF-19 Excalibur and YF-21/VF-22 Sturmvogel II generation of variable fighters. I did thrust-to-weight ratios for the VF-25 and VF-27 and they came out so far ahead of last generation fighters it was quite extraordinary. I'll repost it below:

VF-25F Messiah (empty)

Thrust to Weight Ratio = 39.09

VF-27 (empty)

Thrust to Weight Ratio = 46.48

YF-19 (empty) = 15.43 (atmosphere limitation = 9.26)

YF-21 (empty) = 13.65 (atmosphere limitation = 8.19)

VF-17S Nightmare (empty) = 10.04

VF-19A Excalibur (empty) = 12.91

VF-19F Excalibur (empty) = 16.96

VF-19S Excalibur (empty) = 18.32

VF-22 Sturmvogel II (empty) = 13.61 (atmosphere limitation = 8.17)

VF-22S Sturmvogel II (empty) = 13.96 (atmosphere limitation = 8.38 )

VF-19 Excalibur Custom (empty) = 13.45

There's a 20.77 point jump between the VF-19S Excalibur (T-W 18.32) and the VF-25 Messiah (T-W 39.09).

If you're interested in a common unit of measure to compare rather than T-W ratios, I'll do a calculation of the thrust back to kgs for the VF-25 and VF-27. It's also interesting to note that the Macross Zero mecha, like the VF-0 Phoenix and the SV-51, feature thrust ratings in kilo-newtons. Perhaps Japan has changed the way they measure thrust ratings now or they already did and Kawamori decided it was time abandon this odd measure of thrust.

VF-25 Messiah

165,138 kg x 2

Total thrust = 330,276 kg

VF-27

140,367 kg x 4

Total thrust = 561,468 kg

YF-19 (empty)

67,500 kg x2

Total thrust = 135,000 kg

YF-21 (empty)

65,200 kg x2

Total thrust = 130,400 kg

VF-19S Excalibur (empty)

78,950 kg x 2

Total thrust = 157,900 kg

VF-22S Sturmvogel II (empty)

65,200 kg x2

Total thrust = 130,400 kg

Well, I hope that answers your question

Edited September 27, 2008 by Mr March

[Sumdumgai]

Well as of the time that DYRL was made in the Macross Universe, they had holo technology as we saw Hikaru and Minmay hopping around onto different discs trying out holographic costumes. So having Sheryl use that during her concerts is a nice tribute to DYRL.

[sketchley]

As a fellow Canadian, I'm quite disappointed that you consider metric as being unusual.

Some fun quotes:

International System of Units is the primary or sole system of measurement for all nations except for Burma, Liberia, and the United States.

[1] - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metric_system

NASA's response: We'll try to use metric more often, but not exclusively, in part because the U.S. aerospace industry refuses to do so. Agency observers wonder whether NASA's response will prevent another multimillion-dollar loss of taxpayers' money.

- http://www.globalsecurity.org/org/news/200...0303-metric.htm

From what I can remember, both Russia and Japan used the kg rating for measuring thrust decades ago in aircraft and rocket design. I'm not sure why this unusual form of thrust measurement was ever used, but it is apparently legitimate. It's basically the same as using pounds of thrust, but it uses the metric measurement of kilograms.

[Mr March]

As a fellow Canadian, I'm quite disappointed that you consider metric as being unusual.

I find nothing unusual about metric, but I share your disappointment

[Master Dex]

Yeah, I like metric so much better than the imperial system and I am an American who was raised with feet and pounds. Metric makes so much more sense though.

[Sumdumgai]

Anyone notice that the VF-171EXs in the final episode have a squadron emblem on their backs like Ozma's VF-25 has the skull emblem? Look at the VF-171EX that gets blown away by the Ghost V-9 at tge 3:19-3:20 mark, when he changes into battroid before screaming "YAMEROOOO!". Looks like an eagle or angel with spread wings.

[VF-25 Messiah]

Anyone notice that the VF-171EXs in the final episode have a squadron emblem on their backs like Ozma's VF-25 has the skull emblem? Look at the VF-171EX that gets blown away by the Ghost V-9 at tge 3:19-3:20 mark, when he changes into battroid before screaming "YAMEROOOO!". Looks like an eagle or angel with spread wings.

Looks like Sheryl with wings to me. Guessing its a kind of "nose" art

[Final Vegeta]

Looks like Sheryl with wings to me.

Exactly. Sheryl Guard confirmed

FV

[Sumdumgai]

Badass. I know what kind of VF-171EX toy I want now. Sheryl Guard!

[Ghost Train]

If you're interested in a common unit of measure to compare rather than T-W ratios, I'll do a calculation of the thrust back to kgs for the VF-25 and VF-27. It's also interesting to note that the Macross Zero mecha, like the VF-0 Phoenix and the SV-51, feature thrust ratings in kilo-newtons. Perhaps Japan has changed the way they measure thrust ratings now or they already did and Kawamori decided it was time abandon this odd measure of thrust.

VF-25 Messiah

165,138 kg x 2

Total thrust = 330,276 kg

VF-27

140,367 kg x 4

Total thrust = 561,468 kg

YF-19 (empty)

67,500 kg x2

Total thrust = 135,000 kg

YF-21 (empty)

65,200 kg x2

Total thrust = 130,400 kg

VF-19S Excalibur (empty)

78,950 kg x 2

Total thrust = 157,900 kg

VF-22S Sturmvogel II (empty)

65,200 kg x2

Total thrust = 130,400 kg

Well, I hope that answers your question

Cool, thx! That was the info I was looking for.

[Shun]

can anyone tell me about the various Ghost units? esp their differences... thanx

[sketchley]

All the Ghosts from all the series? (They had them way back in SDF:M and M0), or are you referring to the ones only in MF? Or MF and M+ and VF-X2?

[RedWolf]

can anyone tell me about the various Ghost units? esp their differences... thanx

Evolution of the Ghost Fighter

Macross Zero (2008)

QF-2001 Ghost

QF-2200A Ghost with VF-0 as Fast Pack

SDF Macross (2009-2010)

QF-3000E Ghost

Macross Plus (2039-2040)

X-9 Ghost

Macross Frontier (2059)

NUNS and SMS AIF-7S Ghost

Galaxy V9 Ghost

Edited September 28, 2008 by RedWolf

[ChronoReverse]

Hehe, I knew they wouldn't completely throw away the Ghost X-9 tech. It's far too useful for absolute emergencies (or for cyborgs to use too I guess).

BTW, I wonder how Battle Frontier took on a hit from Battle Galaxy's Macross Cannon. Not a full powered shot?

Edited September 28, 2008 by ChronoReverse

[azrael]

The Ghost V-9 just looks like a AIF-7S Ghost with a freakin laser on it's head.

[ChronoReverse]

Haha. They did find a good way to mitigate the Ghost's self-preservation instinct issue. Tying it to a valkyrie makes it sacrifice itself for the main unit!

Frankly, I'm not sure why they were made to be different. It was clear from Luca's words that his Ghosts had the same programming and neural chip design as the X-9. Assuming the V-9 are the cyborgs' version of this, they might very well be nearly the same (closer in kin than even the YF-24, VF-25 and VF-27).

Edited September 28, 2008 by ChronoReverse

[RedWolf]

Haha. They did find a good way to mitigate the Ghost's self-preservation instinct issue. Tying it to a valkyrie makes it sacrifice itself for the main unit!

Frankly, I'm not sure why they were made to be different. It was clear from Luca's words that his Ghosts had the same programming and neural chip design as the X-9. Assuming the V-9 are the cyborgs' version of this, they might very well be nearly the same (closer in kin than even the YF-24, VF-25 and VF-27).

So they made a KITT to replace KARR.

Altruistic rather than Animalistic.

No wonder Luca gives his Ghosts so much love.

In this case KITT vs the Cylons.

The Ghost V-9 just looks like a AIF-7S Ghost with a freakin laser on it's head.

Look closely AIF-7S has forward canard wings, V-9 has backswept canard wings.

[azrael]

Look closely AIF-7S has forward canard wings, V-9 has backswept canard wings.

The overall shape is still the same.

[Sumdumgai]

Hehe, I knew they wouldn't completely throw away the Ghost X-9 tech. It's far too useful for absolute emergencies (or for cyborgs to use too I guess).

BTW, I wonder how Battle Frontier took on a hit from Battle Galaxy's Macross Cannon. Not a full powered shot?

The Battle Frontier gunship took the hit and exploded. It probably helped that the beam took a chunk out of the Macross Quarter's gunship as well.

Battle Galaxy took a hit from the Quarter's gunship, but I guess it wasn't powerful enough to break through its ppb.

Loved how the turrets on Frontier chewed Battle Galaxy to crap before delivering that punch to its midsection.

Edited September 28, 2008 by Sumdumgai

[ChronoReverse]

The Battle Frontier gunship took the hit and exploded. It probably helped that the beam took a chunk out of the Macross Quarter's gunship as well.

Battle Galaxy took a hit from the Quarter's gunship, but I guess it wasn't powerful enough to break through its ppb.

Loved how the turrets on Frontier chewed Battle Galaxy to crap before delivering that punch to its midsection.

Yeah, it's just that the full powered Macross Cannon sort of rips right through large capital ships like paper and is enormously wide at maximum output (well, enough that a large chunk of a fleet can be taken out even before sweeping the beam). The shot from the Galaxy was like a quick snapshot that ended up with only a Macross Peashooter level of power.

[Final Vegeta]

Yeah, it's just that the full powered Macross Cannon sort of rips right through large capital ships like paper and is enormously wide at maximum output (well, enough that a large chunk of a fleet can be taken out even before sweeping the beam). The shot from the Galaxy was like a quick snapshot that ended up with only a Macross Peashooter level of power.

Maybe it was mitigated by their PPB.

FV

[Mr March]

Didn't the Battle Galaxy's Super Beam Weapon shot destroy the Gun Ship of the Battle Frontier? Maybe I didn't see it right, but it looked like something on the Battle Frontier go blasted to bits. And when the Battle Frontier did it's diving punch upon the Battle Galaxy, it appeared to have no gun ship. I'll have to watch it again closely to be sure.

[ChronoReverse]

Didn't the Battle Galaxy's Super Beam Weapon shot destroy the Gun Ship of the Battle Frontier? Maybe I didn't see it right, but it looked like something on the Battle Frontier go blasted to bits. And when the Battle Frontier did it's diving punch upon the Battle Galaxy, it appeared to have no gun ship. I'll have to watch it again closely to be sure.

Yup, the gunship of Frontier and the gunpod of Quarter were both destroyed by the same shot.

That's not really the issue though. The question is why the Galaxy's Macross Cannon shot was so puny. I suspect not enough charging time but still.

Maybe it was mitigated by their PPB.

Could be. We don't get to see any PPB glow though and it still conveniently blows up solely the big guns.

Incidentally, did anyone notice that the Galaxy's head was still there after being hit square with four reaction shells? The explosions of the reaction shell were also quite a bit smaller then usual >_>

Also, right after when Frontier is delivering the final blow, notice the bajillion PPBs on it.

Another interesting thing is how the head lasers on Alto's VF-25 were actually firing beams. As in lines of death kind of beams rather than bullet-like "fake" lasers.

Edited September 28, 2008 by ChronoReverse

[VF-25 Messiah]

Didn't the Battle Galaxy's Super Beam Weapon shot destroy the Gun Ship of the Battle Frontier? Maybe I didn't see it right, but it looked like something on the Battle Frontier go blasted to bits. And when the Battle Frontier did it's diving punch upon the Battle Galaxy, it appeared to have no gun ship. I'll have to watch it again closely to be sure.

You, Sir, are correct. The Battle Galaxy fires at Frontier and Quarter. Quarter barely dodging, also losing its cannon, with Frontier being hit directly. The gunship specifically is hit, taking it out.

Edited September 28, 2008 by VF-25 Messiah

[RedWolf]

Didn't the Battle Galaxy's Super Beam Weapon shot destroy the Gun Ship of the Battle Frontier? Maybe I didn't see it right, but it looked like something on the Battle Frontier go blasted to bits. And when the Battle Frontier did it's diving punch upon the Battle Galaxy, it appeared to have no gun ship. I'll have to watch it again closely to be sure.

Upper and lower parts of the gunship was destroyed. Its barely salvageble. A wreck.

I suppose Battle Frontier brought it down planet side to be rebuilt as we see it with Battle Frontier in carrier mode.

Apparently Quarters main gun is a detacheble gunship as well.

[sketchley]

Does it still have ventral lasers? I see the inclusion of 2 pairs of internal launchers in the dorsal section, in addition to the big cannon and the super parts. I won't have the time to go frame by frame for a few days, so... did anyone spot the ventral missile launcher and the pair of beam weapons that are on the other 2050's era Ghosts?

The overall shape is still the same.

[RedWolf]

Does it still have ventral lasers? I see the inclusion of 2 pairs of internal launchers in the dorsal section, in addition to the big cannon and the super parts. I won't have the time to go frame by frame for a few days, so... did anyone spot the ventral missile launcher and the pair of beam weapons that are on the other 2050's era Ghosts?

The big gun is its main weapon. It also uses missles.

[grss1982]

BTW......what's up with Ozma and folded vertical fins?

He did it in episode 14 now he's doing it again.

Edited September 28, 2008 by grss1982