sketchley Posted September 20, 2008 Posted September 20, 2008 The VF-171 being easier to fly than the VF-17 comes from official text on the VF-171. I can't remember if I've seen cheaper to produce. But the VF-17 is definitely cheaper than the AVF. The VF-171 rectified the VF-17's poor atmospheric performance. The VF-171 is also the successor of the VF-11. See the cannon text on the VF-171 for further information (though you might have to do some translations from Japanese.) I'm not sure why there's so much going on about the VF-17 being "easy to fly" and "cheap to produce". Not only was it made using special stealth materials (it had passive stealth as well as active) but its original design meant it was very poor in an atmosphere. Also, it wasn't really that widely deployed. In Macross 7, it was reserved for the special forces until they were replaced by VF-19's and VF-22's. Now the VF-25 is a true successor to the the VF-11. SMS already has like a dozen of them. We didn't even see six VF-19's in Macross 7.
RedWolf Posted September 20, 2008 Posted September 20, 2008 You know what we may be looking at the wrong direction as to why the Super Nova AVF fighters weren't the Valkyrie of choice. We may be looking at the economic side but what about the political side? Both the X-9 Ghost and the Super Nova competitions were General Gomez's projects. Though the AVF was just a smokescreen for his X-9 Ghost developed by the Macross Consortium. Imagine the political fallout on Gomez after the Sharon Apple incident. The X-9 Ghost and YF-21 had serious flaws. The YF-19 thus the VF-19 was affected by association.
Shaka_Z Posted September 20, 2008 Posted September 20, 2008 (edited) hmmm.. it wouldnt be the first time politics spelled the doom of a superior aircraft design - look at the F-104 starfighter... if kelley johnson had been able to get the funding for it's successor, we might not have the aircraft we know as the F-15 eagle. scuttlebutt had it that KJ's design would have literally flown rings around the Eagle, but that due to political fallout from the F-104's success overseas (which the Air Force hated just as much as that the manned missile proved to be adaptable to just about any mission put to it, including carrying nuclear bombs) it couldnt garner any support for development. can you tell that Kelley Johnson was one of my heroes of the cold-war era? you dont see many guys able to take a design like the U-2 or SR-71 from a diner napkin sketch to fully functional prototype inside 12 months anymore... at any price. Edited September 20, 2008 by Shaka_Z
Final Vegeta Posted September 20, 2008 Posted September 20, 2008 Not only was it made using special stealth materials (it had passive stealth as well as active) but its original design meant it was very poor in an atmosphere. I wouldn't say it was very poor in atmosphere, just optimized for space use. Mind that it was still faster than a VF-11. Also, it wasn't really that widely deployed. In Macross 7, it was reserved for the special forces until they were replaced by VF-19's and VF-22's. Now the VF-25 is a true successor to the the VF-11. SMS already has like a dozen of them. We didn't even see six VF-19's in Macross 7. SMS has them because they are testing them, but it's unlikely they will ever be mass-produced. FV
sucker4meltrans Posted September 20, 2008 Posted September 20, 2008 I'm waiting for the ultimate in mecha porn. the duel between two NMC class ships the Battle Frontier and the Battle Galaxy.
ChronoReverse Posted September 20, 2008 Posted September 20, 2008 (edited) The VF-171 being easier to fly than the VF-17 comes from official text on the VF-171. I can't remember if I've seen cheaper to produce. But the VF-17 is definitely cheaper than the AVF. I didn't say anything about the 171 vs the 17. I meant the 17 vs the 19/22 in that all three were special ops. Now it's clear that the experimental versions of the 19/22 were tough to pilot, but by the time it made it to production, those kinks are worked out and the difference shouldn't have been that great anymore. Particularly in space where some of the nasty things that could happen, don't happen. And we know that the 171 is easier to fly and produce so that implies that the original 17 wasn't really that was even after so many years of production. And as for cheaper, it was cheaper at the same time because the 17 had been out for a while, but there's a reason why it was also relegated to special ops in small numbers. Again, it had to be redesigned because the 17 wasn't that cheap (like the stealth materials) so it had to cut down. The result is the certainly cheaper and easier to fly VF-171 of which _I had not disputed_ I wouldn't say it was very poor in atmosphere, just optimized for space use. Mind that it was still faster than a VF-11. If you have uber powerful engines in comparison to a much older fighter (the production engines were as powerful as the first set of engines on the YF-19), then I'd say there's a case for the VF-17 being disappointing in terms of atmospheric performance. The VF-11 even has canards that limit speed but give it greater maneuverability. SMS has them because they are testing them, but it's unlikely they will ever be mass-produced. Isn't that utterly premature? One of the things that have been noted is how the 25's basic design is pretty light and shouldn't be that hard to mass produce eventually. For the elite, there's the fast packs and armor packs. Edited September 20, 2008 by ChronoReverse
Mr March Posted September 20, 2008 Posted September 20, 2008 I'd just like to ponder some of the new Valkyrie statistics for a moment. It sure is interesting that aside from wing-mounted ordnance (like reaction missiles), the VF-25 doesn't have any internal missiles or launcher pods. It appears to rely upon Super Packs and Full Armor for missiles, much like the VF-11. Of course the big difference with the VF-25 is that it can retain it's Full Armor in all modes, which makes it a lot more potent that previous valkyries. The caliber for the guns is interesting. I think this is the first time that Macross has given a barrel measurement for energy weapons, such as the 12.7 mm coaxial beam gun and the 25 mm beam machine guns. In most eras past, they just used small/medium/large bore to describe energy weapons. Speaking of size, the new Howard GU-17A 58mm 5-barrel gatling gun pod is an interesting change. For the longest time the Macross gun pods got smaller as their lethality increased, such as the VF-11 Thunderbolt's 30 mm gun pod. At 58 mm, the GU-17A is definitely the largest gun pod built for a "main variable fighter". Only the VA-3 Invader's 60 mm gun pod is larger and it's an attack craft, not a main variable fighter (I suppose there is also the caliber of the monstrous XS-06 Long-Range High-Piercing-Round Gun Pod, which is currently unknown). This larger gun pod caliber is again another parallel with the VF-1, which used the GU-11 55 mm gun pod. The Anti-Vajra ESA munitions and the later MDE munitions also make the gun one of the most powerful gun pods we've seen, with the exception of the aforementioned XS-06 and the new BGP-01β Beam Gun pod/Beam grenade of the VF-27. Lots of new tech to geek out over
Morpheus Posted September 21, 2008 Posted September 21, 2008 IIRC the article about VF-25 and VF-27 didn't mention about PPB or any sort of barrier technology. (Sneaking into Compendium back door).
badboy00z Posted September 21, 2008 Posted September 21, 2008 IIRC the article about VF-25 and VF-27 didn't mention about PPB or any sort of barrier technology. (Sneaking into Compendium back door). But the 25 obvious do since we saw Ozma block the BFG from a red vajra.
Kronnang Dunn Posted September 21, 2008 Posted September 21, 2008 (edited) Why ppl still debates about the use of the VF-117? I'm pretty sure i read that kawamori only didn't use the VF-19 because it looked like a hero mecha. That's it. (IMHO the VF-19 has better overall looks than the VF-25 heh) The harsh simple truth. And that's in the Macross Compendium... In episode 1 of Frontier, we already saw why the Ghost wouldn't be able to do jack against the Varja either. Latest episodes have shown that the Ghosts are effective again... (thanks to some anti-EMP upgrades I presume) I'm waiting for the ultimate in mecha porn. the duel between two NMC class ships the Battle Frontier and the Battle Galaxy. If the preview summary is any indication, I'm pretty sure we will see that... Edited September 21, 2008 by Kronnang Dunn
Final Vegeta Posted September 21, 2008 Posted September 21, 2008 Latest episodes have shown that the Ghosts are effective again... (thanks to some anti-EMP upgrades I presume) Luca's ghosts have always been effective due to Fold comunications. See episode 7. FV
d3v Posted September 21, 2008 Posted September 21, 2008 Sorry if I'm steering the discussion in a different direction, but at around 20:49 in episode we see a head that at first seems to be Brera's VF-27, until we notice a set of ship cannons right next to it. So it looks like we have our first look at Battle Galaxy. If anything, the "shoulder" seen at the right seems to indicate that it's still a New Macross Class ship but heavily modified as it's head doesn't match that of the other NMC ships we've seen. I wonder though if this indicates that even cap ships can now be controlled in VR (seems likely) or, if worse if they might even be controlled by remote?
VF-25 Messiah Posted September 21, 2008 Posted September 21, 2008 Sorry if I'm steering the discussion in a different direction, but at around 20:49 in episode we see a head that at first seems to be Brera's VF-27, until we notice a set of ship cannons right next to it. So it looks like we have our first look at Battle Galaxy. If anything, the "shoulder" seen at the right seems to indicate that it's still a New Macross Class ship but heavily modified as it's head doesn't match that of the other NMC ships we've seen. I wonder though if this indicates that even cap ships can now be controlled in VR (seems likely) or, if worse if they might even be controlled by remote? was brought up 2 pages ago in this very thread. But I agree, it needs more discussin'
d3v Posted September 21, 2008 Posted September 21, 2008 (edited) was brought up 2 pages ago in this very thread. But I agree, it needs more discussin' Was out the whole weekend and was only able to watch the episode tonight. But that shot is quite interesting, it seems that the Battle Galaxy's bridge is more head-like, complete with a neck than that of the Battle Frontier. I wonder if this is because someone can actually jack into it and use it like a ship sized Ex-gear. Edited September 21, 2008 by d3v
VF-25 Messiah Posted September 21, 2008 Posted September 21, 2008 (edited) Was out the whole weekend and was only able to watch the episode tonight. But that shot is quite interesting, it seems that the Battle Galaxy's bridge is more head-like, complete with a neck than that of the Battle Frontier. I wonder if this is because someone can actually jack into it and use it like a ship sized Ex-gear. Indeed, as well as having, by the looks of it, huge bridge antennae. Also no visible 'window' that is normal on these bridges. Dying to see the whole thing. Edited September 21, 2008 by VF-25 Messiah
d3v Posted September 21, 2008 Posted September 21, 2008 Indeed, as well as having, by the looks of it, huge bridge antennae. Also no visible 'window' that is normal on these bridges. Dying to see the whole thing. At the very least, I want to see it transform, I've a sneaking suspicion it's actually the top of the front bit of the Galaxy (which is suspiciously flat).
VF-25 Messiah Posted September 21, 2008 Posted September 21, 2008 At the very least, I want to see it transform, I've a sneaking suspicion it's actually the top of the front bit of the Galaxy (which is suspiciously flat). I wanna see Battle Frontier transform too... wee saw bits of the transformation in ep 24, but nothing that I would deem satisfying Kawamori taking revenge on all who complained about Battle 7 always transforming I wonder...
Zinjo Posted September 21, 2008 Posted September 21, 2008 I wanna see Battle Frontier transform too... wee saw bits of the transformation in ep 24, but nothing that I would deem satisfying Kawamori taking revenge on all who complained about Battle 7 always transforming I wonder... I'd speculate it's Kawamori demonstrating a more plausible use for the transformation as opposed to Mac 7's "Oh look a ship, let's transform!"
RedWolf Posted September 21, 2008 Posted September 21, 2008 At the very least, I want to see it transform, I've a sneaking suspicion it's actually the top of the front bit of the Galaxy (which is suspiciously flat). You mean it doesn't have hangers like Battle 7 and Macross 13? Weird since the hangers are the top portion torso of every NMC Attacker Mode we've seen including Battle Frontier. But compared to the previous NMCs Battle Frontier and Battle Galaxy's bridges are far bigger. Having a decent sized head.
VF-25 Messiah Posted September 21, 2008 Posted September 21, 2008 I'd speculate it's Kawamori demonstrating a more plausible use for the transformation as opposed to Mac 7's "Oh look a ship, let's transform!" That's all fine n' dandy n' all. But I'm beginning to suffer from withdrawal here...
The_WOZ Posted September 21, 2008 Posted September 21, 2008 I'm thinking that Battle Galaxy may be the same size than the Quarter.
VF-25 Messiah Posted September 21, 2008 Posted September 21, 2008 I'm thinking that Battle Galaxy may be the same size than the Quarter. Don't think so, it has the same type of gun turrets as Battle Frontier, and what we see of its shoulder looks like a standard NMC type. So I say a very unique looking NMC, possibly with some unique technological innovations.
RedWolf Posted September 21, 2008 Posted September 21, 2008 I'm thinking that Battle Galaxy may be the same size than the Quarter. I don't think since the Quarter is really small. Also a NMC is bigger and has more fire power. In the prologue of the colonization Macross Galaxy list it as having a NMC.
Mr March Posted September 21, 2008 Posted September 21, 2008 Hehehe, poor tiny little Quarter I'm thinking the Macross Galaxy wastes the Macross Frontier, then the Macross Quarter comes in to save the day
VF-25 Messiah Posted September 21, 2008 Posted September 21, 2008 (edited) Hehehe, poor tiny little Quarter I'm thinking the Macross Galaxy wastes the Macross Frontier, then the Macross Quarter comes in to save the day Is that scale correct though? Somehow it doesn't strike me as being a quarter of the length of a NMC... Edited September 21, 2008 by VF-25 Messiah
RedWolf Posted September 21, 2008 Posted September 21, 2008 (edited) Is that scale correct though? Somehow it doesn't strike me as being a quarter of the length of a NMC... It's really small compared to Battle Frontier. Looking at their bridge sections they are much bigger than Battle 7, Battle 5 or Battle 13. With a bridge like that Exsedol would have some elbow room. Edited September 21, 2008 by RedWolf
Mr March Posted September 21, 2008 Posted September 21, 2008 Hmmm, you might be right VF-25 Messiah, but it's difficult to nail down the size of the Quarter. It might be larger than depicted in the picture above but it also might be smaller. I'm going to use RedWolf's chart and take a guess. Here goes... According to the few facts out right now, the Macross Quarter is supposed to be approximately one-quarter the size of the NMC Carrier. So if the NMC Carrier is 1,510 meters long, the Macross Quarter would be 377 meters long. However, the literature so far has also stated the Macross Quarter is the same size as current non-Macross carriers. The current carriers in service in 2059 are still the Guantanamo Class Stealth Carrier (400 meters) and the Uraga Class Escort Battle Carrier (550 meters). So the Macross Quarter may be somewhere between 400-500 meters long. Perhaps it's 410 meters? LOL At any rate, the Macross Quarter would NOT be one-quarter the height of the NMC Attack Mode. The NMC Attack Mode isn't as tall as it is long. At the same time, what is the height of the Macross Quarter Attack Mode? The pair of booms that sit atop the Macross Quarter in Attack Mode mean it's height is probably much closer to it's length than what is true for the NMC. Further complicating the issue is the fact that the Macross Quarter's legs actually shorten in Carrier Mode (the "knees" of both legs bend, recessing the "legs" into the amidships). Both factors (top booms and shortened legs) probably means the Macross Quarter Attack Mode is as tall as the Carrier Mode is long. Lastly, the SDF-1 Macross Class (1,210 meters) is actually much taller in Attack Mode than it is long in Cruiser Mode. Notice that the "back end" of the main guns rest upon the "hips" of the SDF-1's "legs" in Cruiser mode. However, in Attack Mode, there is a large gap between those two sections. The SDF-1 Macross is likely 1,300 to 1,350 meters tall in Attack Mode, but it's hard to calculate. One last thing to keep in mind: the Battle Frontier may be larger than other NMC vessels (much like Island 1 is much larger than City 7) So what do we do? Well, I'll try something here. According to the side schematic of the Battle 7, the length of the ship in Carrier Mode is just a bit bigger than the length from the "tip" of the gunship to the edge of the white portion on the leg's "hip". Working from that assumption, I can then properly size of the SDF-1 Macross next to the Battle 7 based on the length of the Daedalus (488 meters) or Prometheus (512 meters). Lastly, I'm going to assume the Macross Quarter is roughly 400 meters tall taking into account the rear booms and the shortened legs in Carrier Mode. From all that lengthy analysis, I end up with this: Just a guess for right now. Perhaps the Macross Chronicle may enlighten the situation. I'm hopeful
RedWolf Posted September 21, 2008 Posted September 21, 2008 Nice one March. I'm begining to think that Battle Frontier and Battle Galaxy will have the exact same body but will only differ in bridge design. They've sort of done this before with the VF-25 and VF-27. Sharing the exact torso.
Sumdumgai Posted September 21, 2008 Posted September 21, 2008 Redwolf has a good point. The Macross 7 and the Macross 5 had cosmetic differences. The Macross 13 looked a bit different as well, but overall they shared similar traits in both modes, with mainly cosmetic and weapons differences. Looks like the Battle Galaxy has a different style head/bridge.
sketchley Posted September 22, 2008 Posted September 22, 2008 Different style battle class ship for a different style super long range emmigration city class ship? Sounds logical.
Zinjo Posted September 22, 2008 Posted September 22, 2008 Redwolf has a good point. The Macross 7 and the Macross 5 had cosmetic differences. The Macross 13 looked a bit different as well, but overall they shared similar traits in both modes, with mainly cosmetic and weapons differences. Looks like the Battle Galaxy has a different style head/bridge. I'm sure there are other differences between the Battle Frontier and the Battle Galaxy, by the picture of the Galaxy's bridge they are both NMC's as you can see the shoulders of the Galaxy just right of the head and it is definitely an NMC shoulder... I also found it interesting that the Galaxy went with a window stripe for the bridge area as opposed to the traditional bubble (granted it's an artist's conception of the bridge to mimic the look of the VF-27, but practically it is a safer design).
Sumdumgai Posted September 22, 2008 Posted September 22, 2008 I wonder if it has the same type of gunship, or if it's more like the VF-27's gun but larger...
Morpheus Posted September 22, 2008 Posted September 22, 2008 I think Battle Galaxy bridge is a custom made for a military force which use implant, Macross Galaxy is an implant colony after all (aka. Borg, matrix, etc). So the bridge doesn't need fancy window, just sensor and camera should be sufifcient. I wondering if Battle Galaxy can be controlled by one person which has been implanted to function as the core, so no more bridge bunnies or a trigger-happy captain to crew it. If Battle Galaxy doest show up, it wil be the fourth NMC class ever to make apperance on screen (Battle-7, Battle-13, Battle Frontier and Batle Galaxy). Speaking about NMC class, where is my destroid mode Konig Monster? 1 episode left and I want Konig Monster in destroid mode
RedWolf Posted September 22, 2008 Posted September 22, 2008 I wonder if it has the same type of gunship, or if it's more like the VF-27's gun but larger... Well in VFX-2 the badguys did have gunships like Brera's gun pod. Though I think it would be a regular gunship like the others. Even if the gun ships do have some differences. One avenue is that they would use the abandoned design for Battle Frontier's gunship.
Recommended Posts