Macross Frontier Mecha/Technology Thread III *Read 1st Post*

[VF-25 Messiah]

Here's a clearer screencap of it:

[RedWolf]

Based on the images I think we can safely say that Battle Galaxy is at the top.

City Galaxy itself is modeled after the Megaroad concept. If I'm correct those are ARMD docks.

Edited September 19, 2008 by RedWolf

[VF-25 Messiah]

I realize it's kinda jumping ahead of things by calling it the Battle Galaxy. All we do know is that it's a large ship, it has a bridge and is armed and is the same color as Galaxy. It could jus as easily be the Galaxy itself, and there is no transforming Battle Galaxy on it.... but who am I kidding? It's got Macross in its name, it has to transform, right?

[Fade Rathnik]

That is the shoulder of a NMC if i ever saw one. Looks like Battle 21 is going to get the theatrical transformation for the NMC class in this series.

[Morpheus]

It has been speculated few pages before in the old thread that Battle Galaxy lies on top of Macross Galaxy, so Battle Galaxy is probably a NMC class with some modification. Either way, I'm waiting for official confirmation about Battle Galaxy.

[VF-25 Messiah]

That is the shoulder of a NMC if i ever saw one.

You are quite right at that... the more I look at it, the more details I make out. Bridge is rather unorthodox, but then again that's kind of expected. I'm dying to see a full shot of this guy.

[badboy00z]

The bridge looks just like the VF-27 head. Lol.

[VF-25 Messiah]

The bridge looks just like the VF-27 head. Lol.

Not really. Lost track of how many differences I can spot on the bridge/head alone. Granted the color scheme IS identical, so when I first saw the split second shot of it, I *did* think it was the VF-27. Anyway, the Bridge does appear kind of large, but its difficult to tell due to the extremity of the closeup.

[Final Vegeta]

How can Kowamori say that the VF-25 still has similar performance to the VF-19 and VF-22 with a straight face when it appears to have so much more thrust?

You appear to have misunderstood what I said. I was joking that, with a single engine left, the VF-25 would still have the power of a VF-19. That would seem a good reason for having engines which complessively are more powerful that a human could handle

FV

[Graham]

Hopefully in the final ep, we will get a fight between Battle Frontier & Battle Galaxy.

Graham

[sucker4meltrans]

two NMC ships in battle mode trade macross cannon fire? sign me up. my perfect ending is alto, grace, galaxy, leon dead and the frontier civilians living on the vajra planet. sheryl survives and becomes a bridge bunny on the quarter.

[Spitze]

I'm having a hard time understanding the thrust output comparison between the VF-27 and VF-22. It's like the VF-27 is only MARGINALLY better than the VF-22, unless you can show to me via mathematical formula how to match up the VF-22's thrust, measured in kilograms, can be converted to kilonewtons, which the VF-27's engines are measured by.

Thanks.

[ChronoReverse]

You appear to have misunderstood what I said. I was joking that, with a single engine left, the VF-25 would still have the power of a VF-19. That would seem a good reason for having engines which complessively are more powerful that a human could handle

FV

Actually I meant what I said. However, I need to search back on some threads (and there's a LOT now) for where that was mentioned (which was pretty early). I could be just imagining it after all.

What was said was something to "the VF-25's performance is only somewhat better than the VF-19/22". I took this to mean something like how the VF-19 had only somewhat better performance than the VF-17 while in space (the VF-19 was far superior in an atmosphere). Even in Frontier, the VF-171EX was close enough to the VF-25 that Alto could put a scratch on Ozma. Sure piloting makes a difference, but unless they've upgraded the VF-171 so much that it's unbelievable (in which case, why not the VF-19/22?), it's far-fetched for the VF-25 to have that much more thrust.

Edited September 19, 2008 by ChronoReverse

[nugundam93]

hmmm, you guys sure have sharp eyes. and i thought it was brera's VF. LOL!

[grss1982]

A minor nit-pick - When Ozma was shown in 11 years ago flash back, he should be flying something older, not VF-171. It as only 2048, a few years after Macross 7 & VF-X time and before the VF-X2 time.

CF-18 posted this on the Episode 24 thread and I just wanted to ask about it here, since its Macross Technology-related.

My thoughts:

So if by 2048 the VF-171 was already a "grunt" unit then would'nt that mean that by 2059, it'd be really OLD, and need of a replacment, yeah I know the VF-25 fulfills that necessity.

But this got me wondering what the heck every happened to the VF-19's and VF-22's, I mean the 117th Research Fleet is'nt actually a long distance colonization so they should be equipped with the "latest toys," right?

[Knight26]

CF-18 posted this on the Episode 24 thread and I just wanted to ask about it here, since its Macross Technology-related.

My thoughts:

So if by 2048 the VF-171 was already a "grunt" unit then would'nt that mean that by 2059, it'd be really OLD, and need of a replacment, yeah I know the VF-25 fulfills that necessity.

But this got me wondering what the heck every happened to the VF-19's and VF-22's, I mean the 117th Research Fleet is'nt actually a long distance colonization so they should be equipped with the "latest toys," right?

SImplest reason of all, the animators already had the 3-D model available

[RedWolf]

CF-18 posted this on the Episode 24 thread and I just wanted to ask about it here, since its Macross Technology-related.

My thoughts:

So if by 2048 the VF-171 was already a "grunt" unit then would'nt that mean that by 2059, it'd be really OLD, and need of a replacment, yeah I know the VF-25 fulfills that necessity.

But this got me wondering what the heck every happened to the VF-19's and VF-22's, I mean the 117th Research Fleet is'nt actually a long distance colonization so they should be equipped with the "latest toys," right?

What we know is that the VF-17D was being mass produced as a mainline fighter of Macross 7. Likely phasing out the VF-11.

Also the black market smuggler Loschier was selling also a VF-17D. He implies it still cost a lot of money.

The VF-171 is a simplified and cheaper version of the VF-17.

It is implied due to economics that the VF-171 was preferred by some fleets.

Zola Galaxy Patrol was still using the VF-5000 as a main fighter.

But as we've seen with the VF-19P which Basara "rented" the VF-19 was being distributed even to the most remote worlds of NUN. (Grand Theft Valkyrie really)

Gamlin had replaced his VF-17D for a new VF-22S as a elite fighter of choice.

[Final Vegeta]

What was said was something to "the VF-25's performance is only somewhat better than the VF-19/22". I took this to mean something like how the VF-19 had only somewhat better performance than the VF-17 while in space (the VF-19 was far superior in an atmosphere).

Fan speculation based on mistranslations

The original post you are referring to should be this one (they moved it in the Hall Of The Super Topics section).

Combat performance is equivalent to the VF-19 and VF-22 series.

Mind that this is a mistranslation, as later posts proved. Official site in fact stated that the VF-25 was the successor of the VF-19 and VF-22, meaning that it was better than both.

FV

[RedWolf]

Yup I was right in guessing that the YF-24 is a baby of Shinsei Industry.

Basically they licensed the design with LAI and Macross Galaxy.

[ChronoReverse]

The original post you are referring to should be this one (they moved it in the Hall Of The Super Topics section).

Mind that this is a mistranslation, as later posts proved. Official site in fact stated that the VF-25 was the successor of the VF-19 and VF-22, meaning that it was better than both.

FV

Ah good, I didn't have bad memory, I just relied on bad information =)

With that said, it still doesn't explain the VF-171EX being so high performance (relatively). If that can be upgraded to such stronger engines, the VF-19/22, both being designed to withstand higher stresses in the first place, should also be able to incorporate more powerful engines.

[DarkReaper]

I'm having a hard time understanding the thrust output comparison between the VF-27 and VF-22. It's like the VF-27 is only MARGINALLY better than the VF-22, unless you can show to me via mathematical formula how to match up the VF-22's thrust, measured in kilograms, can be converted to kilonewtons, which the VF-27's engines are measured by.

Thanks.

Quite simple, one kilogram is equal to a force of about 10 Newtons in earths gravity field. So if each VF-27 engine puts out 1377000N then that is equal to 137000Kg, so each one of the four engines on the VF-27 puts out as much thrust as both engines on the VF-22.

If for some reason the Kilonewtons given are based on Frontiers 0,7g (6,85 m/s^2) then the equivalent mass is even larger at 201000Kg.

By the way the formula is F=m*g, F is Newtons, m is kg, and g is 9,81m/s^2 on earth

[Impreszive]

Quite simple, one kilogram is equal to a force of about 10 Newtons in earths gravity field. So if each VF-27 engine puts out 1377000N then that is equal to 137000Kg, so each one of the four engines on the VF-27 puts out as much thrust as both engines on the VF-22.

If for some reason the Kilonewtons given are based on Frontiers 0,7g (6,85 m/s^2) then the equivalent mass is even larger at 201000Kg.

By the way the formula is F=m*g, F is Newtons, m is kg, and g is 9,81m/s^2 on earth

Anyway you put this, the friggin plane is fast, and has a lot of power.

[Master Dex]

Anyway you put this, the friggin plane is fast, and has a lot of power.

That works for most people, but some like me want the numbers, and engineer never stops thinking about these things.

[sketchley]

Ah... but this is Macross we're talking about. The sad truth is that the vast majority of details that us fans want to see, are never created (or never released to the public.)

[azrael]

Fan speculation based on mistranslations

The original post you are referring to should be this one (they moved it in the Hall Of The Super Topics section).

Mind that this is a mistranslation, as later posts proved. Official site in fact stated that the VF-25 was the successor of the VF-19 and VF-22, meaning that it was better than both.

FYI, I later corrected myself here: http://macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?s=&a...st&p=584109

As for the VF-171, improvements were made to make it more aerodynamic as well as a few other improvements from the various articles I've read about it. Didn't specify what improvements. The UN has lots of fleets out there. The VF-22 was a Spec Ops fighter. Its deployment would have been much more limited than the VF-19 so it's presence wouldn't have been as great. We've only seen the VF-19's deployment in so many places so I can't say how things looked on the whole. Now the profile for the VF-171 says that it is easy to fly among the regulars. Now, one can infer that perhaps the VF-19 was a little more than most regulars could handle. It's pricing may have also been more cost-prohibited among smaller units. So units looking to replace their aging VF-4s/VF-5000s/VF-11s see this VF-171 on the market and think, well, it can do most things that the VF-19s can at a lower price/unit. Units may have just completely skipped the VF-19 and went for the VF-171.

Now the screenshot of the VF-171EX that was posted earlier that I think was from Great Mechanics DX #6 indicates that the VF-171EX does have strengthened or enhanced engines, but it didn't indicate any specifics.

[Spitze]

Okay, I get math now, thanks.

Edited September 19, 2008 by Spitze

[Final Vegeta]

FYI, I later corrected myself here

I know, but ChronoReverse was remembering the first version

As for the VF-171, improvements were made to make it more aerodynamic as well as a few other improvements from the various articles I've read about it. Didn't specify what improvements.

It was officially downgraded, and the most visible sign is that it lacks arm lasers, but the improvements should compensate for what was taken away

Now the screenshot of the VF-171EX that was posted earlier that I think was from Great Mechanics DX #6 indicates that the VF-171EX does have strengthened or enhanced engines, but it didn't indicate any specifics.

Yeah, it was "tuned up". It's speculation on my part, but I think the VF-171EX is now more or less on par with a VF-19.

FV

[Impreszive]

That works for most people, but some like me want the numbers, and engineer never stops thinking about these things.

I'm a spec monkey too, but I have no real engineering background. I just admire the beauties from afar.

[Mark Nguyen]

Nuts to that - I like admiring my Valkyries from close up! What mechahead hasn't poked themselves in the eye with a gun pod form one of their figures, hmm?

I don't think the 171 was an outgrowth of a mass-produced 17; the "teal" planes from MD7 were never referenced as being for CF use. Just because we saw several of them flying in formation in the Macross 7 fleet, and several more stolen examples of the plane, doesn't mean that EVERYONE's got 'em. Rather, it's probably a still-very-expensive plane that had been licensed for export to other nations / independents, much as the F-15 has turned up in limited number in the IAF and JASDF. Some years later when the need for a cheaper replacement for the Thunderbolt arose, the 171 probably took advantage of the 17s's export sales record and uber-cool look. Add to it optimization for certain new technologies like fold boosters and EX-Gear, and you have a vehicle just as good as the VF-11 to take on those pesky Zentradi leftovers and wierd big bugs of today's colonization fleets.

Mark

[bullet101]

Put the VF-171/VF-19/VF-22 debate in contemporary terms. US Airforce, even with its massive budget, couldn't afford an airforce comprised of solely F-15s so it created the light fighter program that created the F-16. F-22 is massively expensive and a world beater, but you can't afford to equip a full airforce with them, so in jumps the F-35 cheaper and less capable than the F-22 but better than what is already out there.

So VF-19 and 22 are the best available at the time, nothing can match them, but they cost a bunch and all those UN Spacy pilot are going to have to be retrained to the new advanced features. VF-17 is already out there with alot of pilots trained on it plus its similar to the VF-11 controls. Its already better than the standard variable fighter in UN Spacy, the VF-11, so hey lets upgrade it so it close but not quite as good as the supernova fighters. Give it nice easy controls so you can churn out pilots quickly and bam you have the brand new (and yet somehow old) VF-171.

[akt_m]

Why ppl still debates about the use of the VF-117? I'm pretty sure i read that kawamori only didn't use the VF-19 because it looked like a hero mecha. That's it. (IMHO the VF-19 has better overall looks than the VF-25 heh)

[ChronoReverse]

I'm not sure why there's so much going on about the VF-17 being "easy to fly" and "cheap to produce".

Not only was it made using special stealth materials (it had passive stealth as well as active) but its original design meant it was very poor in an atmosphere.

Also, it wasn't really that widely deployed. In Macross 7, it was reserved for the special forces until they were replaced by VF-19's and VF-22's.

Now the VF-25 is a true successor to the the VF-11. SMS already has like a dozen of them. We didn't even see six VF-19's in Macross 7.

Edited September 19, 2008 by ChronoReverse

[Mark Nguyen]

I'm with Bullet on this one. The VF-19/22 were probably never meant to be a "grunt" fighter; in Macross Plus, there is dialogue to support its use as a spec ops or surgical strike fighter at the tactical level, while explicitly NOT carrying reaction weaponry. In closest terms, its the next "big thing" VF for the military, liek the F-15 is now and the F-22 eventually will be. The 171 was pretty clearly the next general purpose fighter that's cheaper to produce with lower specs than Super Nova, by design; if the military were to equip all its fighter squadrons with VF-19s, it'd be bankrupt while having the coolest toys. Hence, the equivalent of the F-16 Falcon, the 171. Frontier may not have been equipped with an "elite" fighter as it's a colony fleet and not a military fleet; the 171s were multipurpose but tasked principally with keeping the colony safe,not going out there to destroy military targets. If NUNS had sent in military reinforcements, we could have been lucky enough to see wha thtey have, instead of the underpowered but cheap 171s.

What I don't agree with is the idea that there were lots of 17 pilots already trained. While they share the same shape and I'm sure a few of the components, I see the 171 as an evolution akin to the SUper Hornets the Navy uses. They only LOOK like the older Hornets, but are pretty much a whole new plane.

Mark

[akt_m]

There is really no use try to put some logic why they used one or other thing. IMO the most logical thing would be a lot of ghost X-9. But then it would be boring, there would be no real reason for it to lose to the vajra if only one almost kicked the ass of a VF-19 and YF-21 in Plus.

[ChronoReverse]

In episode 1 of Frontier, we already saw why the Ghost wouldn't be able to do jack against the Varja either.