Macross Frontier Mecha/Technology Thread III *Read 1st Post*

[RedWolf]

Zentradi were/are clones grown in machines taught their specific job and then sent to battle like a piece of equipment. so this gets me thinking. if i could find a zentradi factory satelite with the ez bake zentradi cloning machine, think i could order up a Milia model and educated to serve the role as my wife? its a thought.

But you'll have to beat her in a dogfight, 1 Valkyrie video game and a knife fight.

Though I do wonder if Moaramia (Jifon) Fallyna Jenius is a natural born or a clone.

Imagine adopting a 6 year old giant Meltran ace who pilots a Variable Glaug for giant Zentradi that can transform like a Valkyrie.

At the time Max and Millia adopted Moaramia they still only had Komillia.

Millia hasn't yet given birth to a load of girls.

[Mr March]

You know the Akizuki types does resemble the Algenicus or Algenix

I think the Akizuki Type resembles a Varauta High Speed Raiding Space Cruiser. The the bridge and ventral amidships replace the top/bottom fins of the Varauta ship. The bow and overall hull shape of the Akizuki type also resembles the Varauta Raiding Space Cruiser. They might even be roughly the same size.

Edited September 2, 2008 by Mr March

[RedWolf]

Funny I have Varautan ships as part of M7 in the fic chapter I'm writing.

We do know that the Protodevlin are experts in stealing the tech base of their victims and making their own versions.

The Algenicus always gave the feel that it was a one of a kind ship due it's Valkyrie launch system.

Unless NUNS got a bulk surplus from Varauta (77,000 ships) and started modifying/refit them for their own use.

[sketchley]

Aaa. I c. 3Q.

Personally, I think they look like a Bolognese with a few extra dohickeys tacked on and the nose blunted. But, that's just me.

The bridge bunny Lam called the blowing up ship the Akizuki in ep 20.

Much like we call the two classes of Macross Galaxy escorts as the Dulfim and Kaitos.

In the first ep of Macross 7 the bridge bunnies called one of the advance guard ships Bolognese and the name stuck for that class.

Unless we can call this a Algenicus variant. The Algenicus was the Dancing Skulls members Max and Millia command carrier in Macross M3.

But to me it functions in Frontier as a frigate not a carrier. It doesn't look to have the Algenicus' unique launch platform.

Though I hope Macross Chronicle gives the 411 on these new ship classes.

[DarkReaper]

For that matter what are those ships seen in ep 9? Space trucks and freighters?

Edited September 2, 2008 by DarkReaper

[RedWolf]

For that matter what are those ships seen in ep 9? Space trucks and freighters?

Uhh... They carry all "Natural" pork. Just your typical genetically engineered square pigs. Nothing suspicious.

In fact it is driven by John Canyon is one of the last independent space transport entrepreneurs.

He refuses to be bought by corporate transport monopolist Richard Bilrer.

His cargo is to be delivered to Island 3 the recipient is one named Grace O'Connor.

Edited September 2, 2008 by RedWolf

[Final Vegeta]

For that matter what are those ships seen in ep 9? Space trucks and freighters?

They are Mugen Trucks

FV

[sucker4meltrans]

nerds! ah hmm. talking about the small details of various warships when we could be discussing the possiblities of blackmarket made to order meltran clone honies. no need for the otaku of the macross universe to suffer in solitude when they can have their own meltran clone delivered to their door at macross speed!

[Lindem Herz]

For that matter what are those ships seen in ep 9? Space trucks and freighters?

You guys are all wrong! Two words: Colonial Movers. They DO move anywhere, you know.

[d3v]

nerds! ah hmm. talking about the small details of various warships when we could be discussing the possiblities of blackmarket made to order meltran clone honies. no need for the otaku of the macross universe to suffer in solitude when they can have their own meltran clone delivered to their door at macross speed!

Why go through the expense of cloning when you can get a whole meltran fleet with just a guitar and the power of song.

[Morpheus]

They are Mugen Trucks

FV

Mugen truck?

Oh I see, MUGEN PUNCHHHHHH!!!

[daflip702]

you all forget that Q-raus fly their sheer force of thurster alone even in atmospheres. the general galaxy yf-21/vf-22 was designed with q-rau design ideas. a super or armor pack vf-25 could fly in the air through sheer force of their thursters.

I sure hope that armored pack has sufficent directional boosters to keep it level. Or else that would be a really expensive falling brick. the armored pack deals away with the wings.....thus denying lift/stability. The Q-raus have vernier thrusters to keep it stable since it flys in one mode only.

IMO i dont think that super/armored packs would'nt do well in fighter mode in an atmospheric condition.

1. Excesive weight...manuverabilty is significantly reduced....remember the saying...an object in motion, stays in motion..........yah know.

2. It would take more energy to propell the Valk w/Packs due to "planet-like factors" I.e. gravity,drag,turbulence etc etc.

2. That vf-25 should'nt fly with the intakes covered....unless they got some way to power the valks without having to use air...keep in mind those were the legs that lifted the Valk in ep21. I'm thinking that the armored/superpack have a different type of propulsion unit that merges with the valk....hmm I don't think there's oxygen in space let alone cutoff the intake tract. Maybe the intakes are decorative items?

There are many things we can't explain, Well...that anime magic for yah.

[DarkReaper]

I think in an atmosphere the onboard reactor superheats the incoming air and propels it out the back, sort of like Project Pluto therefore granting it pretty much unlimited range.

In space however the engines have to burn the onboard propellant, where the additional fuel supply on the super and armored packs come to use

[d3v]

2. That vf-25 should'nt fly with the intakes covered....unless they got some way to power the valks without having to use air...keep in mind those were the legs that lifted the Valk in ep21. I'm thinking that the armored/superpack have a different type of propulsion unit that merges with the valk....hmm I don't think there's oxygen in space let alone cutoff the intake tract. Maybe the intakes are decorative items?

It can fly by simply using it's own on board propellant. The only reason for the intakes is to allow the plane to conserve its on board propellant by using the air around it when in an atmosphere.

Edited September 3, 2008 by d3v

[Mr March]

All the Valkyries (including the VF-25) have vernier thrusters, not just the Zentradi Q-Raus.

Also, of course the VF-25 can fly without air intakes. It's a trans-atmosphereic fighter craft after all, capable of operation both in the atmosphere and in space. The VF-25 has an internal cooling system and reaction mass for propulsion in a vacuum like any other Valkyrie. It's not anime magic; that's the way the variable fighters were designed from the VF-1 onward.

Edited September 3, 2008 by Mr March

[DarkReaper]

I wonder though how the YF-19 engines are limited IN the atmosphere because of cooling problems.

Normally all that extra air flowing around your plane cools better than just radiating it out into space.

[Mr March]

Given the incredible amount of thrust possible in the YF-19, YF-21 and VF-17 Nightmare, I think it's safe to say dedicated cooling systems were a requirement, not an option. These variable fighters can attain orbit in under a minute; that much thrust that quickly I would think produces more heat than can be managed by cold air intakes.

[DarkReaper]

So what is the reason that dedicated cooling system doesn't work in an atmosphere, where it is inherently far easier to bleed heat than in space? Did Shoji ever give one or was it just an arbitrary decision by him.

Besides with that much heat being dissipated in the heat exchangers they should be glowing white maybe even blue hot. I know they cool rocket engines with liquid nitrogen, so I guess they use that in the valkyries as well. But they should be working in atmosphere, as long as the stores last of course.

I guess that is the reason for the limited engine thrust in atmosphere. They can engage overboost but then have the same range limitation as in space as they need constant engine power and cooling to not lose speed, while in space the valks likely travel long distance using stored inertia and only use the engines on demand (at least they should).

So they should be able to go full speed in atmosphere but don't do so because it imposes an artificial range limit that is not there at lower speeds.

Still it's not that different from a normal afterburner, it should be overridable.

Edited September 3, 2008 by DarkReaper

[Final Vegeta]

These variable fighters can attain orbit in under a minute;

On planet Eden

Authors cautioned themselves against fans with a chronometer

FV

[hobbes221]

I think in an atmosphere the onboard reactor superheats the incoming air and propels it out the back, sort of like Project Pluto therefore granting it pretty much unlimited range.

In space however the engines have to burn the onboard propellant, where the additional fuel supply on the super and armored packs come to use

I have had the same idea as well but the thing that get me is that I can't figure a way around the ground erosion problem in gerwalk. With those engines pointed right at the ground the superheated exhaust would be doing a whole lot of damage and in the episode 21 alone there are two scenes with VFs in vertical flight near the ground and right next to people as well. Also had the idea of the propellant/reaction mass/fuel, whatever you want to can it being supercooled and used for coolant itself. (I seem to remember that the SR-71 used its fuel to help manage the heat at high speed)

[David Hingtgen]

We don't know the temp of valk exhaust---just because it's colored, doesn't mean it's insanely hot. Currently, the most powerful jet engines are the ones with the coolest exhaust.

Hot exhaust=waste. The goal is for the turbine to EXTRACT as much heat energy out of the combustion (or nuclear fusion) process as possible to spin the compressor, not to spew as much heat as possible out the back. Heat=noise, not thrust.

[ChronoReverse]

Yeah. If we imagine up a "magic" OverTechnology gas expansion system for the thrusters, we could handwave the heat away to simple adiabatic cooling =D

[badboy00z]

I want to see the specs on the VF-25. The VF-19S is currently the most powerful (engine output) to date. I wonder how much the VF-25 will surpass that or not.

[hobbes221]

We don't know the temp of valk exhaust---just because it's colored, doesn't mean it's insanely hot. Currently, the most powerful jet engines are the ones with the coolest exhaust.

Hot exhaust=waste. The goal is for the turbine to EXTRACT as much heat energy out of the combustion (or nuclear fusion) process as possible to spin the compressor, not to spew as much heat as possible out the back. Heat=noise, not thrust.

I see what you're saying but it was my understanding of engines like turbojets and turbofans that you want hot exhaust for thrust and the turbine part of these engines is used to power the engine itself, not move the aircraft. That the exhaust would be a waste in things like turboshaft helicopters and turboprop aircraft where you are using a shaft to drive the rotors or props. I would like to know the temp for the Val's exhaust now just to be able to compare. And if I'm wrong, I'm wrong and I admit it.

[DarkReaper]

Turbofans actually generate most of their thrust by the fan up front which is driven by the turbine.

[Knight26]

So what is the reason that dedicated cooling system doesn't work in an atmosphere, where it is inherently far easier to bleed heat than in space? Did Shoji ever give one or was it just an arbitrary decision by him.

Besides with that much heat being dissipated in the heat exchangers they should be glowing white maybe even blue hot. I know they cool rocket engines with liquid nitrogen, so I guess they use that in the valkyries as well. But they should be working in atmosphere, as long as the stores last of course.

I guess that is the reason for the limited engine thrust in atmosphere. They can engage overboost but then have the same range limitation as in space as they need constant engine power and cooling to not lose speed, while in space the valks likely travel long distance using stored inertia and only use the engines on demand (at least they should).

So they should be able to go full speed in atmosphere but don't do so because it imposes an artificial range limit that is not there at lower speeds.

Still it's not that different from a normal afterburner, it should be overridable.

It could also be an aerodynamic limitation, the plane no matter the stiffness or hardness would only be able to go so fast in atmosphere before drag and friction start to tear it apart, so limiting the engine output is the easist way to control that.

[hobbes221]

Turbofans actually generate most of their thrust by the fan up front which is driven by the turbine.

Good point, also depends on if it is a high or low bypass turbofan as well. I think that what it comes downs to is the fact that I (and by that I mean most of us) need/want a Variable Fighter Tech Manual!

Edited September 3, 2008 by hobbes221

[badboy00z]

Is there a way to actually contact Kawamori? Do they have white pages in Japan? Lol.

[Mr March]

The variable fighters are not conventional turbofans and heat management in a valkyrie must consider more than just thrust. You've got two thermonuclear reaction engines producing over tens times more power than a Nimitz aircraft carrier. There must be some kind of advanced coolant system in place to deal with the demands such a thermal system would create. I'm pretty much out of my league after that, but from what I understand, gas-cooled systems are the most efficient and are likely the type used in a valkyrie fusion reactor.

As to why the coolant systems in the YF-19/YF-21 couldn't function as well in an atmosphere as they do in space, it may have to do with aerodynamic necessities that are not considerations in space. It's possible that for the YF-19/YF-21 to fly at maximum aerial performance efficiency in an atmosphere, the engines need to be open to intake air. This may place a limitation on effectiveness of the internal cooling system, which perhaps requires a closed system to be 100% effective. The internal cooling system is obviously so efficient that it can handle all cooling needs in space despite the fact that dissipating heat is traditionally easier in an atmosphere than a vacuum (give thanks to OverTechnology for that, I suppose). Based on the many Macross anime shows, it appears a Valkyrie can fly in an atmosphere with the intakes closed, but it may not be desirable from a performance point of view. Perhaps it disrupts air flows or creates other problems that wouldn't be a concern in a vacuum. Hence the heat management limitations.

Edited September 4, 2008 by Mr March

[David Hingtgen]

I see what you're saying but it was my understanding of engines like turbojets and turbofans that you want hot exhaust for thrust and the turbine part of these engines is used to power the engine itself, not move the aircraft. That the exhaust would be a waste in things like turboshaft helicopters and turboprop aircraft where you are using a shaft to drive the rotors or props. I would like to know the temp for the Val's exhaust now just to be able to compare. And if I'm wrong, I'm wrong and I admit it.

For atmospheric operation:

Heat is energy. Motion is energy. A jet engine basically converts one to another. The extreme heat of the combustion chamber (or fusion reactor) is extracted and used by the turbine---the heat energy (as much as possible) is converted to kinetic energy by the turbine--it spins, thus spinning the compressor fan up front. The compressor fan moves the air from the intake rearward, as much and as fast as it can. 2nd law of motion--action/reaction. Air rushing out the back of the engine=plane moves forward, thus thrust.

Again--a balloon or waterjet are jets---they expel a fluid rearwards, thus creating forward thrust. No combustion or heat is involved. A box fan creates thrust, just not enough to move itself. It's a "powered" jet--a small electric motor. An F-15's engine is a "supremely powered" jet, in that it has a complex fuel-driven mechanism to spin the fan with great speed and power, allowing it to move far more air, and at a greater speed, to produce far more thrust.

Now, due to the simple fact that there IS hot exhaust rushing out the back of a normal jet engine, that too is making thrust---but it's a small part of the total thrust. (and in a turbojet, it'll always be mixed with the compressor's air and ALL the air coming out will be hot) Basically a "useful byproduct". And it's making thrust because it's hot AIR RUSHING OUT, not because it's HOT air rushing out. If it was cold, it'd make just as much thrust (and would indicate a VERY efficient turbine as it would have sucked ALL the heat out and put it to use--possibly physically impossible)

Tanks and helicopters are the same---the heat is converted to kinetic motion-----the turbine uses the heat to spin a driveshaft, rather than a fan. But the operation is the same. They are not creating thrust, but they are still a "heat to motion" energy converting engine...

So how do afterburners work, since they are basically just adding fire/heat to the exhaust, and not air? Because a jet exhaust is a nozzle, and it tapers. To exit, it is forced to accelerate--and that takes energy out of it. So to help/counter that, you add more energy to the exhausting air----and heating it up is a simple, brute-force way to do that. You can add so much heat that it'll actually leave the nozzle with more energy (and thus potential kinetic motion) than it left the turbine with---thus a functional afterburner.

I'll leave space operation to someone else, as that's a rocket, not a jet, and out of my knowledge.

[Fade Rathnik]

Well the propellant is likely used at the coolant. Perhaps its used in closed cycle in an atmosphere but in space all the heat from the engine is vented out when the coolant is used as a propellant.

[hobbes221]

Hey David Hingtgen, didn't mean to imply that it was the heat that makes things go. (I can talk better than I can type) Just more along the lines that to me if a engine is labeled as a 'thermonuclear reaction engine' I automatically think that it may kick out a fair amount heat.

But I love to hear all ideas on VFs, especially on the engines and fuel.

Well the propellant is likely used at the coolant. Perhaps its used in closed cycle in an atmosphere but in space all the heat from the engine is vented out when the coolant is used as a propellant.

As for the closed cycle coolant, I haven't thought of that. Always kinda figured that some propellant was mixed with the air at some point in the engine. Nice idea.

[Shaka_Z]

Hey David Hingtgen, didn't mean to imply that it was the heat that makes things go. (I can talk better than I can type) Just more along the lines that to me if a engine is labeled as a 'thermonuclear reaction engine' I automatically think that it may kick out a fair amount heat.

But I love to hear all ideas on VFs, especially on the engines and fuel.

As for the closed cycle coolant, I haven't thought of that. Always kinda figured that some propellant was mixed with the air at some point in the engine. Nice idea.

well... I for one think of a valk's fusion turbines as a refinement of the VASIMIR drive concept NASA has been investigating for the last decade or so, but capable of using a variety of propellants.

[David Hingtgen]

More heat=more energy=turn more compressor fans faster. If you had a turbine material that could take it, you could give a turbine 1 million degrees to work with, and it could absolutely scream and turn 5 dozen fan stages at 20,000rpm, sucking in tons of air and ejecting them at hypersonic speeds. Or something equally ridiculous by modern standards. The limiting factor in many modern jet engine designs is the ability of the turbine to withstand the heat---we can easily design a combustion chamber that will make more heat than the turbine can take, and you get melted turbines. That's part of the reason we don't have nuclear turbines, nor really need them---we can't deal with the direct heat of jet fuel, much less a reactor. Is there any current fan theory assuming the reactor uses a secondary circuit, like a nuclear ship? Because direct "nuclear reactor into turbines" kinda implies the exhaust itself is then highly radioactive.

I'm not even going to try to explain the YF-19's cooling issue, as I know nothing about shedding heat in space, etc.

[Shaka_Z]

More heat=more energy=turn more compressor fans faster. If you had a turbine material that could take it, you could give a turbine 1 million degrees to work with, and it could absolutely scream and turn 5 dozen fan stages at 20,000rpm, sucking in tons of air and ejecting them at hypersonic speeds. Or something equally ridiculous by modern standards. The limiting factor in many modern jet engine designs is the ability of the turbine to withstand the heat---we can easily design a combustion chamber that will make more heat than the turbine can take, and you get melted turbines. That's part of the reason we don't have nuclear turbines, nor really need them---we can't deal with the heat of jet fuel, much less a reactor.

I'm not even going to try to explain the YF-19's cooling issue, as I know nothing about shedding heat in space, etc.

actually, we dont have thermonuclear turbines because we haven't licked the whole net-energy gain problem yet, and even if we had, there would be no need to give such a turbine that much heat while in atmosphere, where Isp is going to be low anyway... restricting reactor output to keep engine temperatures within the same range as conventional turbines would be more than sufficient. on the other hand, in space - where the engine would be operating as a rocket - there would be no need to use the turbine section at all, so no worries about heat induced failures there.

there is certainly going to be a cooling issue when in space however... unless the reactor is *extremely* efficient at minimizing waste heat. a functional fusion reactor running an aneutronic cycle would have to be exactly that.

Edited September 4, 2008 by Shaka_Z