grss1982 Posted September 1, 2008 Posted September 1, 2008 BTW....I'm surprised no one pointed this out earlier: Need a light?
charger69 Posted September 1, 2008 Posted September 1, 2008 (edited) Stampede VF-171 have the Armored Core aesthetics to me... Edited September 1, 2008 by charger69
RedWolf Posted September 1, 2008 Posted September 1, 2008 BTW....I'm surprised no one pointed this out earlier: Need a light?
Kurisama Posted September 1, 2008 Posted September 1, 2008 Stampede VF-171 have the Armored Core aesthetics to me... Not surprising really, as Kawamori did the designs for Armored Core.
DarkReaper Posted September 1, 2008 Posted September 1, 2008 I just noticed that the super VF-25 has it's intakes closed by the armor: http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b373/lol...id-fastpack.png Yet we have seen it used in the atmosphere, so I guess it's running on internal propellant mass all the time. Btw, have we seen it actually flying in atmosphere yet or was it always in gerwalk?
Sulendil Ang Posted September 1, 2008 Posted September 1, 2008 I don't really recall any use of Super Pack in the atmospheric condition, Dark Reaper, at least for the first 20 episodes. (Still haven't seen 21: waiting for my dear AVI) And a nice tidbit: all VF have their intake closed when they are in Battroid mode, a thread shown as early as VF-1. From Macross Compendium... Two-dimensional exhaust nozzles, for enhanced V/STOL performance and maneuverability. Rectangular underfuselage air intakes with intake vane, variable ramps, and retractable cover shutters in Battroid mode or space use. (bold mine) Here's a picture from Macross Mecha Manual, showing the battroid mode of VF-25 without its Super Pack. Notice the closed intake. http://www.new-un-spacy.com/macrossf/vf-25...5f-battroid.jpg So the armor technically didn't block the intakes: the intakes are already closed.
David Hingtgen Posted September 1, 2008 Posted September 1, 2008 Yeah, but in fighter mode, the Super (and armor) pack closes the intakes which may be needed when flying on a planet... Anyways---I just now noticed that a full-armor pack has a bit of armor that goes over the rear part of the canopy. In battroid mode, it hinges down to make a sort of heatshield. (And Ozma's has his logo on it). In ep 14 though, I don't think they animated it fully, as Alto has his cockpit open, and the canopy is clearly going THROUGH that piece of armor. (in "real life" it presumably can hinge up and down, but I think they forgot to animate the upwards hinge for fighter mode). The first appearance of Alto's armor also has Ozma's logo on it, but it's gone for the rest of the ep, so I think that's just an animation error---would have been a neat opportunity for a custom logo for Alto. (I'm thinking geisha with a parasol) ::edit:: It shows up again later---I still say animation error, as only Ozma should have that logo.
Sulendil Ang Posted September 1, 2008 Posted September 1, 2008 Yeah, but in fighter mode, the Super (and armor) pack closes the intakes which may be needed when flying on a planet... Yeah, noticed that too. I have a theory about this: perhaps both packs are designed such that they best performed in space or in battroid mode, where the intakes are always closed. Super pack, since its introduction in SDF Macross, has always been primary used to boast the VF performance in space, such as VF-1 and VF-11, and Armor part are usually used for enhancing the battroid's firepower. There are exception, of course, but since VF-25's design is quite similiar to that of VF-1, I wonder if those packs are designed in these line of thought, too. Perhaps they expect the pilots to eject their packs as soon as the pilots enter the atmosphere, as shown in Gulliam's case and Alto's and co in Gallia 4. Of course, it doesn't explain away why Ozma continue to use its Armor Pack inside Frontier during the battle in episode 2, or the point of designing the plane so that the armor pack can be used in three modes. I let the experts here to do the rest of discussion on this topic.
sketchley Posted September 1, 2008 Posted September 1, 2008 (...) since its introduction in SDF Macross, has always been primary used to boast the VF performance in space, (...) Boast? Nevertheless, I do find it odd that the VF-25 seems compelled to eject the Super parts when entering an atmosphere. Odd in that the Super Parts for the VF-11 (well one of them), the VF-17, the VF-19 and the VF-22 are transatmospheric (optimized for both space and atmospheric use, that is.) I'm not sure if they use some kind of ram jet or scram jet technology. However, it does look like the Super parts of the VF-25 have gone back to a non-air breathing design.
Sulendil Ang Posted September 1, 2008 Posted September 1, 2008 Boast? Nevertheless, I do find it odd that the VF-25 seems compelled to eject the Super parts when entering an atmosphere. Odd in that the Super Parts for the VF-11 (well one of them), the VF-17, the VF-19 and the VF-22 are transatmospheric (optimized for both space and atmospheric use, that is.) I'm not sure if they use some kind of ram jet or scram jet technology. However, it does look like the Super parts of the VF-25 have gone back to a non-air breathing design. Nay, it's a typing error. Should be boost as in 'increasing performance'. Back to topic, it's no surprising that VF-11 (which do have an atmospheric FAST Pack), YF-19 and YF-21 (both FAST Pack are designed so that it didn't interfere with the planes' aerodynamic) don't need to eject their FAST Pack. No sure about VF-17, VF-19 and VF-22 (since I don't really watch Macross 7; BTW, does VF-22 has a FAST Pack?), but I'm pretty sure VF-25 seems to following the tradition of the old VF-1, where FAST Pack is never used inside the atmosphere. Perhaps the FAST Pack interfere with the aerodynamic of the plane, or that Bilrer has a lot of money to buy spare parts.
RedWolf Posted September 1, 2008 Posted September 1, 2008 The YF-21 had a Fast Pack system. Presumably the VF-22 inherited this but Max, Millia, Gamlin and Aegis never did use VF-22 Fast Packs.
Sulendil Ang Posted September 1, 2008 Posted September 1, 2008 Well, VF-19 use an entirely different FAST Pack in Macross 7, although there's little reason for VF-19 not able to the one we saw at M+.
RedWolf Posted September 1, 2008 Posted September 1, 2008 Well Millia did use Sound Boosters she stole from the Jamming Birds. Attaching them to her VF-22 for her fleet wide live.
Sulendil Ang Posted September 1, 2008 Posted September 1, 2008 I will definitely watch M7 one day, sketchley, but not now, since I don't have that much time for watching three anime series at one time(currently watching MF and R2), not to mention my poor comp's limited space. I will probarly wait till Gubaba released his mega torrent and finding a new laptop.
Sumdumgai Posted September 1, 2008 Posted September 1, 2008 Looking at the M7 VF-22 sketch, so that's where Kawamori got the idea from to put fast packs on the wings.
Master Dex Posted September 1, 2008 Posted September 1, 2008 I just noticed that the super VF-25 has it's intakes closed by the armor: http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b373/lol...id-fastpack.png Yet we have seen it used in the atmosphere, so I guess it's running on internal propellant mass all the time. Btw, have we seen it actually flying in atmosphere yet or was it always in gerwalk? We have only seen the VF-25 with super parts in atmosphere in gerwalk mode, no other. Armored has been seen in gerwalk and battroid. Maybe those slats open up slightly to get some air in but the point of Fast Packs to to provide extra fuel and armament so it may in fact be running internal.
Shaka_Z Posted September 1, 2008 Posted September 1, 2008 It probably is not so much a question of wether or not the packs can be used in fighter mode in atmosphere, but rather what impact the packs would have on the performance of the fighter mode itself - it might work, but I doubt the packs would improve fighter mode performance at all (quite the opposite in fact). I am also rather wary of trying to enter a planetary atmosphere with the packs on (this does not apply to entering the atmosphere of say Island 1) unless they are specifically designed for that capability... having them on during atmospheric entry would likely cause major hot spots on the vehicle where there should be none, and we all know what happens to entry vehicles with flawed surfaces...
d3v Posted September 2, 2008 Posted September 2, 2008 If you look at those packs, those are atmospheric use packs (as were most of the packs shown in M7), however, there are still separate super packs for use in space.
grss1982 Posted September 2, 2008 Posted September 2, 2008 ]http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c111/ReddyRedWolf/1212216698283.jpg I was making a Star Craft reference though. I just noticed that the super VF-25 has it's intakes closed by the armor: http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b373/lol...id-fastpack.png Yet we have seen it used in the atmosphere, so I guess it's running on internal propellant mass all the time. Btw, have we seen it actually flying in atmosphere yet or was it always in gerwalk? It only flies in Gerwalk in Episode 21.
sketchley Posted September 2, 2008 Posted September 2, 2008 The impression that I have is that the space-use only Super parts are earlier models, and the space and atmospheric (transatmospheric) Super parts are later models. Which is why I am left scratching my head over why the VF-25's Super parts are not atmospheric (or, at the very least, reentry capable). Mind you, given the number of references and homages to SDF:M, in a way it's not surprising. The VF-1's FAST packs were all "I don't give a damn about aerodynamics. More speed!". So, too, are the VF-25's. If you look at those packs, those are atmospheric use packs (as were most of the packs shown in M7), however, there are still separate super packs for use in space.
Morpheus Posted September 2, 2008 Posted September 2, 2008 The impression that I have is that the space-use only Super parts are earlier models, and the space and atmospheric (transatmospheric) Super parts are later models. Which is why I am left scratching my head over why the VF-25's Super parts are not atmospheric (or, at the very least, reentry capable). Mind you, given the number of references and homages to SDF:M, in a way it's not surprising. The VF-1's FAST packs were all "I don't give a damn about aerodynamics. More speed!". So, too, are the VF-25's. I prefer "uncapable of reentry". FAST pack are literally missile ammo with extra fuels, the massive heat during re-entry might trigger an internal ammo explosion. Even in Macross 7, the VF need some re-entry vehicle (Operation Stargazer) so some of the surviving valk can reach atmosphere safely with their FAST packs. However, Sound Force are capable to perform re-entry with their sound booster (Galaxy is calling me) this might be explained as their sound booster doesn't contain any fuel or missiles, the sound booster are just huge speaker with holographic system. PS: YF-19 and YF-21 is equipped with augmentation pack, not a real FAST pack.
hobbes221 Posted September 2, 2008 Posted September 2, 2008 As to why the packs are not atmospheric capable it may be due to problems of carrying the packs themselves. If you look at the drop tanks used by aircraft today only about half of the fuel is useful in giving more range as the rest is needed just to compensate for the drag and weight of the tank itself. So maybe it comes down to the drag and weight of the packs and it was found not to be efficient or viable. My understanding about having the intakes closed while in the islands is that the engines do not need air, but use it as a reaction mass. So while they have the intakes closed the Valkyrie would be using more fuel to compensate for the loss of air. (and maybe come close to overheating as well)
Shaka_Z Posted September 2, 2008 Posted September 2, 2008 also, the VF-25 is still so new (still considered to be experimental IIRC) that the transatmospheric FAST packs might not be available yet, even to SMS. granted tat since SMS operates primarily in the vicinity of frontier, they probably have little need of those particular accessories (since valks have easy access to and from the domes via the space gates as demonstrated by brera in ep 21), and so favor the space-only packs. given the above fact, I would actually be surprised to see any valk assigned to colony fleet duty sporting atmosphere-friendly FAST packs so long as the colony fleet was still in space, unless called for to perform a special mission within a planetary atmosphere.
Graham Posted September 2, 2008 Posted September 2, 2008 I thought it was established in official literature months ago that the VF-25 Armoured pack can be used in an atmosphere in all three modes, but the VF-25 Super Pack is primarily designed for space use only. Graham
RedWolf Posted September 2, 2008 Posted September 2, 2008 (edited) You know the Akizuki types does resemble the Algenicus or Algenix Likely a modernized vesion of ot. Thought it doesn't seem to have it's Valkyrie launching configuration. Edited September 2, 2008 by RedWolf
azrael Posted September 2, 2008 Author Posted September 2, 2008 I thought it was established in official literature months ago that the VF-25 Armoured pack can be used in an atmosphere in all three modes, but the VF-25 Super Pack is primarily designed for space use only. Don't recall seeing that one.
Graham Posted September 2, 2008 Posted September 2, 2008 Don't recall seeing that one. I may be wrong but, but I seem to recall that somebody did a partial translation of one of the magazine articles (either Great Mechanics DX, Newtype or Hobby Japan), that mentioned: - The VF-25 with Armored Pack is just as fast as a plain VF-25, but slower than a VF-25 with Super Pack. The VF-25 with Armoured Pack can transform into all 3 modes, unlike the older VF-1 with GBP. The VF-25 with Armored Pack is capable of atmospheric flight. The VF-25 with Super Pack is proimarily for Space use. Maybe I'm remebering wrongly though. Graham
UN Spacy Posted September 2, 2008 Posted September 2, 2008 Looking at the M7 VF-22 sketch, so that's where Kawamori got the idea from to put fast packs on the wings. Actually. Kawamori did winged Fast Packs for the VF-4 back in 87. It's just that no one hardly knows about it, not to mention they were never animated.
DarkReaper Posted September 2, 2008 Posted September 2, 2008 The VF-25 with Armored Pack is capable of atmospheric flight. How can the armored VF-25 be capable of flying in an atmosphere? It's wings are completely covered in armor and weapons. No lifting surfaces at all. The superpack could atleast have the chance of achieving enough lift with the remaining wing surface.
d3v Posted September 2, 2008 Posted September 2, 2008 I prefer "uncapable of reentry". FAST pack are literally missile ammo with extra fuels, the massive heat during re-entry might trigger an internal ammo explosion. Even in Macross 7, the VF need some re-entry vehicle (Operation Stargazer) so some of the surviving valk can reach atmosphere safely with their FAST packs. However, Sound Force are capable to perform re-entry with their sound booster (Galaxy is calling me) this might be explained as their sound booster doesn't contain any fuel or missiles, the sound booster are just huge speaker with holographic system. You should note that the atmospheric use packs seen in M7 are all very streamlined and made to look aerodynamic. Meanwhile the packs we've seen on the VF-25's aren't really what I'd call aerodynamic. of course this opens up the possibility of aerdynamic looking packs for the VF-25.
sucker4meltrans Posted September 2, 2008 Posted September 2, 2008 you all forget that Q-raus fly their sheer force of thurster alone even in atmospheres. the general galaxy yf-21/vf-22 was designed with q-rau design ideas. a super or armor pack vf-25 could fly in the air through sheer force of their thursters.
sketchley Posted September 2, 2008 Posted September 2, 2008 You know the Akizuki types does resemble the Algenicus or Algenix Akizuki type? Where'd this name come from?
RedWolf Posted September 2, 2008 Posted September 2, 2008 (edited) Akizuki type? Where'd this name come from? The bridge bunny Lam called the blowing up ship the Akizuki in ep 20. Much like we call the two classes of Macross Galaxy escorts as the Dulfim and Kaitos. In the first ep of Macross 7 the bridge bunnies called one of the advance guard ships Bolognese and the name stuck for that class. Unless we can call this a Algenicus variant. The Algenicus was the Dancing Skulls members Max and Millia command carrier in Macross M3. But to me it functions in Frontier as a frigate not a carrier. It doesn't look to have the Algenicus' unique launch platform. Though I hope Macross Chronicle gives the 411 on these new ship classes. Edited September 2, 2008 by RedWolf
sucker4meltrans Posted September 2, 2008 Posted September 2, 2008 Zentradi were/are clones grown in machines taught their specific job and then sent to battle like a piece of equipment. so this gets me thinking. if i could find a zentradi factory satelite with the ez bake zentradi cloning machine, think i could order up a Milia model and educated to serve the role as my wife? its a thought.
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