Macross Frontier Episode 16 Talkback Thread *READ 1st Post*

[stray]

Finally watched the gg subs...

* Who's going to stick up for the Vajra? I don't see Alto doing it. Ranka may have to stick up for the family

* Even Bobby doesn't get Basara. Disappointing. Bobby -2.

* The Macross military-industrial complex doesn't seem to learn from series to series.

* Aimo deathmix = win. Interesting new lyrics.

* Northern Cross is really growing on me...

* I wonder what Ozma's opinion of the new paint job on the Koenig is...

* Sheryl's crazy violent streak = sexy. I'm pulling for AltoXSheryl from here on out.

* Sheryl got hosed by Grace.

* Ranka is now getting hosed by Grace. Poor Elmo. Sheryl needs a new manager...

* The future is so bright, Brera has got to wear shades.

* Really a dark, brooding episode overall. I really liked all the new music.

[Radd]

Words like "Serious" and "deep" are thrown a lot when discussing anime, but their actual meaning is muddled. Usually "seriousness" requires blood.

Fair enough. I've seen enough of that to get annoyed by it. I do try not to assume that's what people mean unless they say as much, and those who do mean that are usually quick to say it.

If this is not what you had in mind, then please be very specific.

Just how specific would you like me to get? It sounds as if you would be satisfied with nothing less than a full and polished script. I think it's sufficient to agree that we disagree. I believe the episode, and several other such episodes, seemed rushed and the storytelling suffered for it. I've stated why I believe this, and what I believe would have remedied this. If you don't agree, then you don't agree.

I will say you're putting words in my mouth again. I'm well aware that SDF was not stone-cold serious through and through. That is specifically why I brought it up rather than, say, Plus or Zero.

Two episodes would have been overdoing it. Even the time dedicated to the event is a sign of importance. Too much importance and Ranka's appearance would have been anti-climatic.

Anyway, I like crammed episodes.

I like storytelling to be well paced. Build-up, resolution. This can be achieved while keeping an episode "crammed" as you put it. Grace's monologue before detonating the Dimension Eater seemed to indicate that the uprising itself may have been the work of Galaxy, which would go far in explaining why it was so easy for Ranka's appearance to defuse the situation. However, all of that came an episode later, letting the audience feel, for an entire week, that the situation seemed to wrap up a little too conveniently.

It's secondary for the viewers. The primary conflict officially is between Vajra and Frontier. The Gallia 4 crysis had little relevance to Frontier.

FV

I believe you are proving my point here. The events on Gallia 4 are not so irrelevant to Frontier as you seem to think. The entire event was engineered by Galaxy to set into motion the battle in episode 14. It did not work out quite as planned, but the end result as almost as much as Galaxy had hoped. That point was not made as strongly in part due to the very problems I found with the episode. From the point of view of the Frontier fleet, half a planet and a bunch of zentradi were destroyed in an instant, apparently by the Vajra who then attacked the Frontier fleet and did a lot of damage and killed a lot of people. From the point of view of us, the audience, a ton of story was both set up, and revealed via the events on Gallia 4.

Again, I'm not saying I'm not enjoying the series. I am, it's great. One of the best shows I've seen in years. Just saying that, in my opinion, there is room for improvement and that I speculate a part of the problem may well be out of the hands of the creators. The best intentions can certainly be hampered by budget and time constraints.

Edited July 26, 2008 by Radd

[Isamu Starkiller]

I'm wondering if we'll get an explanation about the humanoid light seen inside the captured Vajra from episode 5. Leon panicked when it awoke....We know Leon is in kahoots with Grace and she appears to instigating a war via Ranka's Aimo song which has about a 4.0 on the emotion engine. They must know Ranka's song has some sort of effect on the Vajra, why was Leon so intent on keeping Ranka down when Sheryl was so popular, and now that Sheryl is bed ridden they pushing Ranka.

I have a sneaking suspicion Leon and Grace DO NOT want SHERYL and Ranka singing a duet. Song of creation + Song of destruction together = ?????

[Gubaba]

I'm wondering if we'll get an explanation about the humanoid light seen inside the captured Vajra from episode 5. Leon panicked when it awoke....

I think it was accidentally humanoid. I could be wrong, of course, but I think we've got enough plot threads to be tied up without worrying about something that may or may not be intentional...

[Isamu Starkiller]

I think it was accidentally humanoid. I could be wrong, of course, but I think we've got enough plot threads to be tied up without worrying about something that may or may not be intentional...

Humanoid or not there was definately something going on there. I think Ranka's illuminating tummy and the Vajra illumination in the tube are connected somehow....emotion energy perhaps.

[RedWolf]

Just downloaded the gg sub with the new Aimo lyrics

Ring the bell of victory now, For this star anew.

Raise high our banner now, For this God's new land.

Onward, Frontier embrace our unity with head held up high.

Soar, Frontier awaken the power that yet sleeps.

Carrying the thunderbolt in your hands, advance!

Build here again our home of old!

If these lyrics have any significance to Galaxy's plans it contains the intention of unifying all of the Protoculture's children at the cost of the Vajra.

While the normal Aimo lyrics is more on harmony and coexistence.

Galaxy intends to create a new Stellar Republic.

[weixing]

Hi,

We have seen what the Vajra have done to the Frontier fleet over several months, as well as glimpses and hearsay of what happened to the 117th fleet. As such, the Vajra has earned a reputation as mindless destroyers. (I'm not talking the red & yellows here, those are clearly just following orders and are, well, mindless) We know that Galaxy intended them to attack Frontier, and all of the blood the Vajra have spilled coats the hands of Grace and her cyber-buddies. We also know that the UNG has known about the Vajra since Macross Plus, and that they were experimented on by the 117th fleet. What we do not know yet, is what humanity has done to get the Vajra to be their chess-pieces. Perhaps something so severe that the Vajra either fear or hate humans so much as to attack them whenever possible. If your brother whacks a wasp nest and the wasps attack you, are the wasps to blame?

Agree... We have no idea what happen between Vajra and 117th fleet. But from ep 13, 117th fleet was clearly studying the Vajra as Alto found a specimen in the old 117th fleet flagship... this seem to imply that Vajra didn't attack 117th fleet on sight and 117th fleet had time to study them.

One possibility was that the 117th fleet encounter the Vajra peacefully initially. When studying the Vajra, they discover the fold quartz (which apparently only available in the Vajra queen as in ep 13) and it's usage. In order to get hold of the fold quartz, they might do something to the queen and provoke the Vajra to attack. Also, in ep 12 and ep 13, the Vajra doesn't seem to bother the 33rd marine battalion which also station in Gallia 4... the same planet as the Vajra hive. This also seem to imply that Vajra are not mindless creatures that attack everything on sight. Also, the Vajra main assault on Frontier was the direct result of brera attacking the queen in the hive which was a planned action by grace.

Anyway, if the above guess is correct, I think the Vajra as mention by Kelsain was a bees/wasp like creature. I don't blame the bees for attacking you if you try to get their queens and honey.

From macross frontier point of view, Vajra may seem to be a mindless creature, but from Vajra point of view, macross frontier is the invader... remember Vajra was there first.... Hmm... this scenario sound familiar... is that the same thing what we human do to our wild animals...

I'm wondering if we'll get an explanation about the humanoid light seen inside the captured Vajra from episode 5. Leon panicked when it awoke....We know Leon is in kahoots with Grace and she appears to instigating a war via Ranka's Aimo song which has about a 4.0 on the emotion engine. They must know Ranka's song has some sort of effect on the Vajra, why was Leon so intent on keeping Ranka down when Sheryl was so popular, and now that Sheryl is bed ridden they pushing Ranka.

I have a sneaking suspicion Leon and Grace DO NOT want SHERYL and Ranka singing a duet. Song of creation + Song of destruction together = ?????

I got a feeling that Leon doesn't know everything and also one of the pawn of grace.

Have a nice day.

[Ashta Ku]

Just downloaded the gg sub with the new Aimo lyrics

Ring the bell of victory now, For this star anew.

Raise high our banner now, For this God's new land.

Onward, Frontier embrace our unity with head held up high.

Soar, Frontier awaken the power that yet sleeps.

Carrying the thunderbolt in your hands, advance!

Build here again our home of old!

If these lyrics have any significance to Galaxy's plans it contains the intention of unifying all of the Protoculture's children at the cost of the Vajra.

While the normal Aimo lyrics is more on harmony and coexistence.

Galaxy intends to create a new Stellar Republic.

Is it significant that the sanskrit word for "thunderbolt" is "Vajra"?

[RedWolf]

Is it significant that the sanskrit word for "thunderbolt" is "Vajra"?

Vajra means both thunderbolt and diamond.

If one article I've looked at is any indication.

Ranka is an equivalent of a goddess of speech and of learning.

Interestingly the word "Basara" is derived from the Sanskrit word "Vajra," which has numerous connotations. But essentially, it means an indestructible substance: something durable, luminous, and able to cut. Therefore, it's usually represented by a diamond or a thunderbolt. The word "vajra" is closely associated with Buddhism.

[Mason]

[snip]

If these lyrics have any significance to Galaxy's plans it contains the intention of unifying all of the Protoculture's children at the cost of the Vajra.

While the normal Aimo lyrics is more on harmony and coexistence.

Galaxy intends to create a new Stellar Republic.

So, Leon and Grace/Galaxy are pulling an Ozymandias, and creating the villain to unite protoculture's children, and Richard Piller wants to unite the galaxy physically while the Galaxy wants to do the same, emotionally.

Edited July 27, 2008 by Mason

[NoNameSt11]

The remix of Aimo was pretty terrible, imo. Only thing I really liked this episode was the new Sheryl ending.

Also, what do people think the text on the Monster's art says? I think it's "Monster Girl"

[Sumdumgai]

Looks like "call up Monster Girl" or "call up Monster God". I think it's girl. Ozma must be pissed off about the nose art and the lack of the bottom part of Ranka's bikini...

[Xeros]

That beloved girl is an monster Alien?????

[wolfx]

I'm under the impression, and dialogue between Kathy and Ozma seem to reinforce this, that Leon may be covering Brera's tracks.

All the footage reguarding him seems to be confiscated by Leon.

FV

Even so, Alto is not shown being annoyed that no one realises Brera is the enemy....or even talking to Ozma about his reservations? Instead he's just being "jealous". Abit suspension of belief here.

Humanoid or not there was definately something going on there. I think Ranka's illuminating tummy and the Vajra illumination in the tube are connected somehow....emotion energy perhaps.

I think it was just a light to show that the Vajra's spinal cord was healing?

Edited July 27, 2008 by wolfx

[sdf2501]

That beloved girl is an monster Alien?????

Apparently. It's the second time she's sung that eye catch, so there's probably something to it...

[Darial]

That beloved girl is an monster Alien?????

That's actually a verse from the SMS song in OST 1. However, having Ranka sing it probably have some hidden significance to it and adds to her Vajra Queen power meter.

[Gubaba]

The remix of Aimo was pretty terrible, imo. Only thing I really liked this episode was the new Sheryl ending.

Also, what do people think the text on the Monster's art says? I think it's "Monster Girl"

I think "Monster Girl" is probably right. Reminds me of the "Next Objective" decal on the old Arii Armored Valkyrie kit...

And the new version of Aimo was MEANT to be terrible, I think. Sucking all of the peace and beauty out of the song...

And...Off-topic, but NoNameSt11, I've been wondering for about your avatar for a while now..."I'd rather swallow barbed wire and floss myself" than do what, exactly..?

[vanpang]

That beloved girl is an monster Alien?????

Is that suppose to be Ranka ? To me it is just a normal nose art, "monster girl" should be referring to the VB-6 Konnig Monster or its female pilot, Canaria.

[junior]

You also speak of Ranka communicating with the Vajra queen, as if there was a scene showing the Queen clearly and easily communicating with Ranka. I cannot recall this scene occuring within the show, are you referring to some source outside the tv series? In episode 14 it was certainly shown that the Vajra have some interest in Ranka. Wouldn't it be quite the twist there if they were, in fact, attempting to use her to communicate and that attempt did not quite succeed before Alto and Brera arrived?

The problem with your theory about the Vajra attempting to use Ranka to communicate before Brera and Alto got her out of the hiveship and killed the queen is that the Vajra's actions don't match up with that. You don't arrive, ambush a fleet, and then fire massive cannons at their primary vessels if you want to communicate with them. The Vajra fleet does the following -

1.) Defolds in front of the Frontier fleet. The Frontier military forces move forward to intercept, but the two sides are fairly evenly matched.

2.) Additional Vajra vessels defold behind the Frontier fleet, and proceed to fire their energy cannons, punching a huge hole in the Frontier dome.

Ideally, if the Vajra wanted to use Ranka to talk, then they would have prepped Ranka beforehand so that she knew what was going on and what was expected of her. They also would have kept the forward fleet out of weapons range of the Frontier fleet, making it clear that they weren't initiating hostilities. And they definitely wouldn't have defolded immediately behind the Frontier fleet and fired massive cannons at the colony vessels. The entire Vajra operation is a very basic "lure the enemy front line away and then sneak attack their vulnerable high priority targets" operation. It's not the kind of tactic that you use when you're trying to initiate diplomacy. It's the kind of tactic that you use when you want to wipe the other guy out.

In short, the actions of the Vajra don't match up with the idea that they were trying to communicate with Frontier.

[manwiththemachinegun]

The problem with your theory about the Vajra attempting to use Ranka to communicate before Brera and Alto got her out of the hiveship and killed the queen is that the Vajra's actions don't match up with that. You don't arrive, ambush a fleet, and then fire massive cannons at their primary vessels if you want to communicate with them. The Vajra fleet does the following -

1.) Defolds in front of the Frontier fleet. The Frontier military forces move forward to intercept, but the two sides are fairly evenly matched.

2.) Additional Vajra vessels defold behind the Frontier fleet, and proceed to fire their energy cannons, punching a huge hole in the Frontier dome.

Ideally, if the Vajra wanted to use Ranka to talk, then they would have prepped Ranka beforehand so that she knew what was going on and what was expected of her. They also would have kept the forward fleet out of weapons range of the Frontier fleet, making it clear that they weren't initiating hostilities. And they definitely wouldn't have defolded immediately behind the Frontier fleet and fired massive cannons at the colony vessels. The entire Vajra operation is a very basic "lure the enemy front line away and then sneak attack their vulnerable high priority targets" operation. It's not the kind of tactic that you use when you're trying to initiate diplomacy. It's the kind of tactic that you use when you want to wipe the other guy out.

In short, the actions of the Vajra don't match up with the idea that they were trying to communicate with Frontier.

Exactly. This is why I don't really feel any sympathy to the 'poor' 'victim' Vajra. If they were really so peaceful, why did they drop out guns blazing rather than trying to communicate at a distance? Frontier still had to defend itself against an overwhelming attack.

[RedWolf]

Exactly. This is why I don't really feel any sympathy to the 'poor' 'victim' Vajra. If they were really so peaceful, why did they drop out guns blazing rather than trying to communicate at a distance? Frontier still had to defend itself against an overwhelming attack.

Having sympathy for the enemy is a Macross tradition.

When Hikaru got on Zentradi ship and met a crewman he hesitated to shoot him.

Besides both Frontier and the Vajra are being manpulated by GraceChan/Galaxy Anonymous.

This is a manufactured war.

[Keith]

I'm starting to get more of a feeling for the Vajra that my first hunch was right. I think they're going to turn out to be a leftover PC security system that's hiding sometihng big/bad at the center of the galaxy. I think the fold distortions are part of that as well, probably an intentional inhibiter left over from the PC.

[RedWolf]

I'm starting to get more of a feeling for the Vajra that my first hunch was right. I think they're going to turn out to be a leftover PC security system that's hiding sometihng big/bad at the center of the galaxy. I think the fold distortions are part of that as well, probably an intentional inhibiter left over from the PC.

Megaroad 13 UN Spacy already found and unleashed the Protodevlin what can be worse than fleet destroying life energy vampires?

[Kronnang Dunn]

Megaroad 13 UN Spacy already found and unleashed the Protodevlin what can be worse than fleet destroying life energy vampires?

Whatever it is I bet that the Megaroad 01 crew are the only ones who know... Wherever they are...

Btw... I don't know why, but I believe these 2 images may be related somehow...

Edited July 27, 2008 by Kronnang Dunn

[wolfx]

Exactly. This is why I don't really feel any sympathy to the 'poor' 'victim' Vajra. If they were really so peaceful, why did they drop out guns blazing rather than trying to communicate at a distance? Frontier still had to defend itself against an overwhelming attack.

Cuz if the vajra are anything like the formics from the Enderverse, they do not understand individualism since they are a hive mind, so shooting at some carriers and ships from the person they are trying to communicate with is equivalent to clipping their fingernails for them to attempt friendly communications.

[jenius]

I'm starting to get more of a feeling for the Vajra that my first hunch was right. I think they're going to turn out to be a leftover PC security system that's hiding sometihng big/bad at the center of the galaxy. I think the fold distortions are part of that as well, probably an intentional inhibiter left over from the PC.

If my subs are right there's a line that says something to the effect of: "We will accomplish what the protoculture hadn't in 500K years" so I don't think we're working up to a big protoculture reveal.

We also have some odd emotion index thing that Grace appears to be monitoring. Her desire to see raging hate likely has something to do with this emotion index. Maybe all fold distortions eminate from one thing in the universe. Maybe that thing is related to the Vajra. Maybe Galaxy wants to eliminate that thing but the only way to do it is to wake it up by generating a certain level of emotion. They create the rouse that they are under heavy attack so that they can go somewhere safe and then ensure that Frontier gets dragged into a nasty war with the Vajra. At some point Galaxy would then be hoping to sacrifice Frontier to get their hands on the real target whose elimination will put humanity beyond the technological reaches of the Protoculture.

[Duke Togo]

I'm starting to get more of a feeling for the Vajra that my first hunch was right. I think they're going to turn out to be a leftover PC security system that's hiding sometihng big/bad at the center of the galaxy. I think the fold distortions are part of that as well, probably an intentional inhibiter left over from the PC.

The PC never conquered fold faults. They've made this clear several times.

I think the Vajra are a beast made by humans. Almost like their own Zentradi or Protodeviln.

[Duke Togo]

If my subs are right there's a line that says something to the effect of: "We will accomplish what the protoculture hadn't in 500K years" so I don't think we're working up to a big protoculture reveal.

Well no, he's referring to intergalactic travel "made easy."

[d3v]

That beloved girl is an monster Alien?????

In addition to being a FAST pack, yes.

[Final Vegeta]

I do try not to assume that's what people mean unless they say as much, and those who do mean that are usually quick to say it.

And there are those who deny it but ultimately mean that. But I do have an outspoken attitude.

Just how specific would you like me to get? It sounds as if you would be satisfied with nothing less than a full and polished script.

Why not? It's so unsatisfying being teased.

I think it's sufficient to agree that we disagree.

You want to disagree. I wanted to agree, so I tried to get all the pieces of your logic chain. Like, how the episode could have satisfied you?

I believe the episode, and several other such episodes, seemed rushed and the storytelling suffered for it.

This episode was rushed, but I think in this case it is actually good storytelling. Quick pace makes story twists even more effective, especially after some slow paced episodes.

If you don't agree, then you don't agree.

Even if I didn't agree, I will still reply to you. This is the internet, there is always someone replying to you

I will say you're putting words in my mouth again. I'm well aware that SDF was not stone-cold serious through and through. That is specifically why I brought it up rather than, say, Plus or Zero.

I still say that episode 12 was very reminiscent of SDF in tone.

I like storytelling to be well paced. Build-up, resolution. This can be achieved while keeping an episode "crammed" as you put it.

At the beginning we were discussing about seriousness. Now it is about pacing?

Grace's monologue before detonating the Dimension Eater seemed to indicate that the uprising itself may have been the work of Galaxy, which would go far in explaining why it was so easy for Ranka's appearance to defuse the situation. However, all of that came an episode later, letting the audience feel, for an entire week, that the situation seemed to wrap up a little too conveniently.

An episode later? Then you didn't notice Temjin was alerted of Alto's escape by some mysterious spy who couldn't be someone other than Grace. And you didn't notice that captain Wilder himself was highly suspicious of the event. The episode itself gave strong hints that the uprising was engineered. And in the previous episode it was specifically mentioned this was Grace's scenario.

But you are wrong into thinking the appearance of Ranka was planned. This event was totally unexpected and there are no lines supporting that. Instead Temjin talks about a treasure in Gallia 4, suggesting he initially was the one supposed to inadvertently awaken Vajra's queen, maybe using reaction missiles.

I believe you are proving my point here. The events on Gallia 4 are not so irrelevant to Frontier as you seem to think. The entire event was engineered by Galaxy to set into motion the battle in episode 14. It did not work out quite as planned, but the end result as almost as much as Galaxy had hoped. That point was not made as strongly in part due to the very problems I found with the episode. From the point of view of the Frontier fleet, half a planet and a bunch of zentradi were destroyed in an instant, apparently by the Vajra who then attacked the Frontier fleet and did a lot of damage and killed a lot of people. From the point of view of us, the audience, a ton of story was both set up, and revealed via the events on Gallia 4.

We are using different words, here. "The events in Gallia 4" is different from "the Gallia 4 crysis". I said the Zentradi are secondary, while the primary conflict is with Vajra. That some action on Gallia 4 resulted in Vajra awakening and assaulting Frontier, this is primary. That a band of Zentradi became villain of the week, this is secondary.

Just saying that, in my opinion, there is room for improvement and that I speculate a part of the problem may well be out of the hands of the creators. The best intentions can certainly be hampered by budget and time constraints.

It's not budget and time costraints, I think it's the director of the episode. A different director would have handled some things a bit different, and we would have had another result. As for me, the second part of the episode was handled greatly, with a rollercoaster of emotions.

FV

[IAD]

Is it so hard to believe good people might kill good people because they're convinced they need to, to protect those they love?

No, not at all, but... At what point does conviction become reality? I think that's happened already. I mean... Say, in the name of interspecies touchy-feely-ness, SMS and NUNS stand down, when the V. fleet from Gallia 4 defolds? One-sided slaughter of Frontier would presumably result. Obviously, this is way beyond mere conviction.

The reality is that given the status quo, Frontier has no choice but to engage the threat, or face annihilation. How one-sided the "slaughter" becomes after that point is, in my opinion, just a measure of relative combat effectiveness. (The Vajra used to have the upper hand, now they don't.)

If that weapon kills someone, who's at fault?

If the weapon is sentient..? Both the weapon and the user.

If the weapon isn't sentient..? Only the user, but there's nothing wrong with destroying the weapon.

If your brother whacks a wasp nest and the wasps attack you, are the wasps to blame?

Well, again, we need to decide whether or not the Vajra are sentient to a point where it is ethically reprehensible to kill them. No, the wasps aren't to blame, but I'm going to have no problem with pulling a can of RAID on them, either. Likewise, if somebody deliberately threw a wasp nest at me, again, killing off the wasps would be my first task. (Needless to say, the second would be to boot somebody's rear. Galaxy has it coming, no doubt. Don't get me wrong, I'm no Galaxy fan.)

~Luke

[Kelsain]

In short, the actions of the Vajra don't match up with the idea that they were trying to communicate with Frontier.

You're right, they don't. You may note that I didn't say that the Vajra were trying to communicate with the Frontier fleet. I said I thought that the queen was trying to communicate with Ranka.

I don't know to what end, b/c we don't understand the Vajra's motivations yet. The bugs have only taken 2 captives in the entire show: Luca, whom they seemed more interested in his VF-25 (I suspect b/c of the FoldComm system he had); and Ranka, whom they sealed in a protective shell, showed her the attack on Frontier and a vision of her mother(?) singing the lullaby. Who knows what they're getting at - the Vajra are the first truly alien species we've seen in Macross. But they are being useed as pawns by Galaxy, and being a pawn ain't cool.

[Vinnie]

And...Off-topic, but NoNameSt11, I've been wondering for about your avatar for a while now..."I'd rather swallow barbed wire and floss myself" than do what, exactly..?

Rather than buy an expansion pack for $70 AUS

It's Yahtzee reviewing Guitar Hero Three...

I don't play video games, but this guy's reviews are funny!

[Vinnie]

Oh, and while the What 'Bout my Star at Formo ver and the duet performance from episode 15 hints at how awesome Lion might be when we finally hear it, I think Northern Cross is my new favorite. Finally we get an ending song that can go up there with After In the Dark! And on additional viewings I really have to reiterate how completely sexy the Bond style video is.

[JustinStrife]

Oh, and while the What 'Bout my Star at Formo ver and the duet performance from episode 15 hints at how awesome Lion might be when we finally hear it, I think Northern Cross is my new favorite. Finally we get an ending song that can go up there with After In the Dark! And on additional viewings I really have to reiterate how completely sexy the Bond style video is.

I still haven't gotten used to Northern Cross yet. DC is still my favorite ED song.