Why Alto must hook up with Sheryl *spoilers*

[Shaka_Z]

hmmm I find this series strange sometimes with how it treats flashbacks. when ozma and alto had the duel in 22, and mentioned ranka's choosing her path, alto initially flashed back to the scene of ranka looking back at frontier from her seat in brera's -27. there is no way he should have been able to do that, as he could not have seen her do so. if anything, he should have flashed back to her standing in the way of his shooting ai-kun, then standing in the hand of the -27 as it took off. this kind of weird (impossible) flashback has occurred before in the series as well.

I suppose it would have been too definitive if alto had flashed to those times when he was carrying sheryl in his arms while flying the ex-gear in response to ozma's question of 'why do you have your wings?'

Edited September 7, 2008 by Shaka_Z

[JustinStrife]

Who said Alto had that flashback? It could just be the animators giving the viewers that flashback for emotional drama.

[Shaka_Z]

well, somebody was having it - and if the writers chose those particular scenes to flashback on for the viewers sake I fail to understand why they related it to alto's reaction. like i said earlier... if they wanted to use something more dramatic in such a flashback, they could have used footage with ranka that alto would have been party to and better demonstrate his inner conflict - the kiss in ep 10 for example... but then they would've had to show the kiss with sheryl too.

hmmm... i wonder which kiss he enjoyed more at the time. sheryl's ambush or ranka's 'by the script'.

[Xeros]

IMHO that's not a flashback, is just a way to tell that the path choosen by ranka is leave Alto and find some answers about herself

[mike_s_6]

(lol @ people thinking this is some Oedipus Complex).

I'm weirded out by the people who are calling it Oedipus Complex. That complex only refers to males who develop romantic love for their mother. Unless Alto has this huge desire to have sex with his mother and kiss her and whatnot, then there's no Oedipus Complex here. Face it, we all seek for lovers who are somewhat like our parents, but of course, not in the romantic way *eep*.

[Shaka_Z]

where are all these references to alto having an oedipus complex coming from? aside from sheryl reminding alto of his mother by wearing what appears to be one of his mother's kimonos, in what used to be his mother's room, in a scene that his 'aniki' specifically set up for that purpose, sheryl is about as far from her as alto could possibly get, personality-wise.

Edited September 8, 2008 by Shaka_Z

[mike_s_6]

where are all these references to alto having an oedipus complex coming from? aside from sheryl reminding alto of his mother by wearing what appears to be one of his mother's kimonos, in what used to be his mother's room, in a scene that his 'aniki' specifically set up for that purpose, sheryl is about as far from her as alto could possibly get, personality-wise.

Again, while it reminds people of Oedipus Complex, it is not a case of Oedipus Complex. There is no evidence that Alto had romantic feelings for her mother, hence using this term is just an attempt to use big words. To say that it reminds you of Oedipus Complex, or as you said, has references to, doesn't mean that it's equivalent to it, as quite a lot of people over the net is trying to make it to be. Oedipus Complex is such a strong description to use on a person who just has familial love to his mother.

[Gubaba]

Again, while it reminds people of Oedipus Complex, it is not a case of Oedipus Complex. There is no evidence that Alto had romantic feelings for her mother, hence using this term is just an attempt to use big words. To say that it reminds you of Oedipus Complex, or as you said, has references to, doesn't mean that it's equivalent to it, as quite a lot of people over the net is trying to make it to be. Oedipus Complex is such a strong description to use on a person who just has familial love to his mother.

It reminds me of the Tale of Genji more than it does Oedipus...where Prince Genji's mother died when he was young, and his father takes a new, very young wife who everyone says looks just like her. Genji, understandably, becomes fascinated by her.

Okay, maybe it's not the same situation, but the emotions evoked in the protagonist seem similar.

[yaiba]

Again, while it reminds people of Oedipus Complex, it is not a case of Oedipus Complex. There is no evidence that Alto had romantic feelings for her mother, hence using this term is just an attempt to use big words. To say that it reminds you of Oedipus Complex, or as you said, has references to, doesn't mean that it's equivalent to it, as quite a lot of people over the net is trying to make it to be. Oedipus Complex is such a strong description to use on a person who just has familial love to his mother.

I don't think Oedipus Complex necessarily means that there are romantic feelings for the mother. For Freud, every male child goes through a phase where they are extremely possessive of their mother's attention, sometimes to the point where they hate their father. Whether Alto's dislike of his father is related to his mother has not been revealed, but I get the feeling that it probably is.

[JustinStrife]

I don't think Oedipus Complex necessarily means that there are romantic feelings for the mother. For Freud, every male child goes through a phase where they are extremely possessive of their mother's attention, sometimes to the point where they hate their father. Whether Alto's dislike of his father is related to his mother has not been revealed, but I get the feeling that it probably is.

Every male child?

[dreamweaver13]

Every male child?

well Freud does have a tendency to generalize...

who am i kidding? freud's claim to fame is that ALL his theories apply to everyone subconsciously.

so yeah, according to freud, every male child. subconsciously. hehe.

[mike_s_6]

I don't think Oedipus Complex necessarily means that there are romantic feelings for the mother.

"Oedipus Complex is, in psychoanalysis, a subconscious sexual desire in a child, especially a male child, for the parent of the opposite sex, usually accompanied by hostility to the parent of the same sex."

There is no case of Oedipus Complex here. Just a person who reminds another person of the distress of his mother, a person he loves and values and whose death has probably traumatized him as a kid. Now what we should really be discussing, is whether this means that Alto cares for Sheryl only because he is reminded of this love, or if it's true love.

[dreamweaver13]

"Oedipus Complex is, in psychoanalysis, a subconscious sexual desire in a child, especially a male child, for the parent of the opposite sex, usually accompanied by hostility to the parent of the same sex."

There is no case of Oedipus Complex here. Just a person who reminds another person of the distress of his mother, a person he loves and values and whose death has probably traumatized him as a kid. Now what we should really be discussing, is whether this means that Alto cares for Sheryl only because he is reminded of this love, or if it's true love.

it's also said that people end up marrying their fathers or their mothers... and if it does happen, it doesn't mean that they love their partners any less.

[Shaka_Z]

I hate to say it, but the interest/attraction on alto's part for sheryl has been there since the beginning. it was there from when he first carried her aloft after his screw-up at her first frontier concert - granted she dampened that early attraction during the interaction they had right after, when kathy was evacuating her from the amphitheatre. in comparison, alto's only thoughts on ranka after their first meeting were that she was a 'strange girl'.

in this light I am leaning towards agreeing that M:F is really ranka's story, where she is the principal protagonist, and not alto - he and sheryl are both primary supporting characters.

[JustinStrife]

I hate to say it, but the interest/attraction on alto's part for sheryl has been there since the beginning. it was there from when he first carried her aloft after his screw-up at her first frontier concert - granted she dampened that early attraction during the interaction they had right after, when kathy was evacuating her from the amphitheatre. in comparison, alto's only thoughts on ranka after their first meeting were that she was a 'strange girl'.

in this light I am leaning towards agreeing that M:F is really ranka's story, where she is the principal protagonist, and not alto - he and sheryl are both primary supporting characters.

Have you had a chance to watch the Yak-Deculture episode 1 version yet? It's a combination of the deculture and broadcast versions, + a couple of added lines for certain scenes(also showed Sheryl resisting evacuating the concert and added a comment about Alto while she was in the limo evacuating). It definitely softened Sheryl's demeanor considerably.

[Mercurial Morpheus]

Have you had a chance to watch the Yak-Deculture episode 1 version yet? It's a combination of the deculture and broadcast versions, + a couple of added lines for certain scenes(also showed Sheryl resisting evacuating the concert and added a comment about Alto while she was in the limo evacuating). It definitely softened Sheryl's demeanor considerably.

Oh, did they finally fix that discrepancy? It's interesting how many times they've revised her in that episode, let alone the episode itself. I still need to watch Yakk Deculture fully. I know they restored the whole good opening plus the sleep mumbling. Maybe I'll go with that version for my rewatch.

Edited September 10, 2008 by Mercurial Morpheus

[VF-25 Messiah]

(also showed Sheryl resisting evacuating the concert and added a comment about Alto while she was in the limo evacuating). It definitely softened Sheryl's demeanor considerably.

Huh? Ther was nothing new like. It's been like that since the deculture edition.

EDIT: Out of curiosity, I checked my blue ray and the same can be said for all three versions of the episode. Once the evacuation alert is sounded, all scenes with Sheryl and all of her lines in all three versions of the episode are exactly the same. The closest thing to a difference that I noticed was that there is a 1-second shot of Alto's face as he is standing on the roof of the concert hall where his attention gets shifted to Cathy saying "Hurry and get in the car" off screen, is missing in the TV broadcast but present in both other versions.

Edited September 10, 2008 by VF-25 Messiah

[yaiba]

"Oedipus Complex is, in psychoanalysis, a subconscious sexual desire in a child, especially a male child, for the parent of the opposite sex, usually accompanied by hostility to the parent of the same sex."

There is no case of Oedipus Complex here. Just a person who reminds another person of the distress of his mother, a person he loves and values and whose death has probably traumatized him as a kid. Now what we should really be discussing, is whether this means that Alto cares for Sheryl only because he is reminded of this love, or if it's true love.

The operative word here is *subconscious* which means that the sexual part may be repressed and may or may not not be expressed in a romantic way. In any event, we don't know anything about Alto's subconscious, but you can be sure he harbors a lot of hostility toward his father. I do agree though that Alto does not view Sheryl as a mother figure so whatever his feelings it can't be really considered a case of Oedipus Complex.

[dreamweaver13]

The operative word here is *subconscious* which means that the sexual part may be repressed and may or may not not be expressed in a romantic way. In any event, we don't know anything about Alto's subconscious, but you can be sure he harbors a lot of hostility toward his father. I do agree though that Alto does not view Sheryl as a mother figure so whatever his feelings it can't be really considered a case of Oedipus Complex.

On the other hand (just to play devil's advocate here), alto may have started to look at sheryl in a different way ever since she invited him to fly in a "real" sky. which is , more or less, what his mother encouraged him to do. so alto may have subconsciously projected his mother onto sheryl. oh no... haha.