Macross Frontier Episode 15 Talkback Thread *READ 1st Post*

[Morpheus]

Actually, Grace's group indicates that the bio-plant is important because it will easily allow them to modify the environment inside Frontier. Thus, from the sound of things, Grace's group needed a colony fleet that they could radically change, and Frontier fit the bill. The lack of cybernetics seems to be tied to this. As others have suggested, it might be that the presence of cybernetics would make it more difficult to carry out the changes that Grace's group has in mind.

The current guess is that Grace's group seems to want a colony that they can change in some manner to provide a friendlier environment to the Vajra.

We are the Galaxy...

We will assimilite you and your colony and added to our collective...

Resistance is futile....

[Kronnang Dunn]

More and more I'm convinced that the Grace-collective are the consciousness of 5 scientists from the 117th fleet that want to transform Frontier into a Vajra Colony and use Ranka (Queen 1) to control the bugs... To what end? Total domination of the Galaxy...

Maybe one of those 5 was once Dr. Mao Nome...!!!

Edited July 20, 2008 by Kronnang Dunn

[Chief Guld Goa Bowman]

More and more I'm convinced that the Grace-collective are the consciousness of 5 scientists from the 117th fleet that want to transform Frontier into a Vajra Colony and use Ranka (Queen 1) to control the bugs... To what end? Total domination of the Galaxy...

Maybe one of those 5 was once Dr. Mao Nome...!!!

Good point, I had the same idea in mind.

[Wabbit]

With high anticipation I started to watch Kei's subs but after running 1/2 of this episode, I grew so annoyed that I paused the whole thing, loaded this thread and voted 'Negative'. What were the makers thinking? That the viewers and in particular: me, would be satisfied with another rehash of previous episodes? Re-using all the occurances I have already seen before? The rest of this abomination they call episode 15 must be very very expensive to make, but the first frames showing Sheryl sitting on her sickbed and Grace talking to her made me cringe even more, what horrible animation!

And those annoying voice-overs, if it meant to be comical, I'm not laughing.

Gods, I'm so pissed and feeling betrayed.

I really hope for the DVD-release's sake, they rewrite and remake this whole episode to blot out this shameful lowpoint of otherwise a great series.

[junior]

With high anticipation I started to watch Kei's subs but after running 1/2 of this episode,

Two things

First of all, there's new information liberally sprinkled in amid all of the recap that fills you in on Grace's actual plans. That's been a huge question mark to date, but the little comments during the recap portions are actually quite enlightening.

Second, the recap more or less stops at the halfway point which means that you let your impatience get the better of you probably just as things were about to switch back to "normal" storytelling mode.

And I'm not sure what you meant by "comedy" with reference to the voice overs. They're letting you (i.e. the viewer) know just what Grace has been up to this entire time. There's lots of comedy, but it's in the sing-off in the second half.

[Raptor One]

That the viewers and in particular: me, would be satisfied with another rehash of previous episodes? Re-using all the occurances I have already seen before?

Well that's what generally happens in a clip show.

[Gubaba]

With high anticipation I started to watch Kei's subs but after running 1/2 of this episode, I grew so annoyed that I paused the whole thing, loaded this thread and voted 'Negative'. What were the makers thinking? That the viewers and in particular: me, would be satisfied with another rehash of previous episodes? Re-using all the occurances I have already seen before? The rest of this abomination they call episode 15 must be very very expensive to make, but the first frames showing Sheryl sitting on her sickbed and Grace talking to her made me cringe even more, what horrible animation!

And those annoying voice-overs, if it meant to be comical, I'm not laughing.

Gods, I'm so pissed and feeling betrayed.

I really hope for the DVD-release's sake, they rewrite and remake this whole episode to blot out this shameful lowpoint of otherwise a great series.

I'm not sure why you feel so betrayed...surely you've seen clip shows before? Hell, SDFM had two of 'em in close succession, and only one of them was worthwhile.

[DeeBot]

I just realized... Grace must have supplied the footage of Ranka's little impromptu concert in the mall. She seems to record everything, and it was just after she decided to switch her attention to Ranka from Sheryl. And then, of course, she officially becomes Ranka's manager, at least for the anti-Vajra project...

[Xeros]

my comment

[s-girl]

I was sort of thinking that it's not just about taking over the resources/assimilating Frontier to prop up Galaxy, but to also wipe out the symbolic existence of Frontier. The dynamics on Galaxy are really almost a completely different type of world, and you have the predominant "race or entity" taking on very aggressive tactics, whereas Frontier seems to be a more peaceful coexistence.

And it is rather compelling to me to consider that each colony has its own governmental system. I don't know enough about the world construct at this time in Macross history, but we know that Frontier is likely some kind of democracy or assume so because we've seen President Glass enough times to get the feeling about his style of governance. Unless I missed something, we know nothing about the way Galaxy works.

It would be pretty interesting if Galaxy were run pretty much as a controlled, almost oligarchical environment. We have only the slightest of hints that things weren't so great on Galaxy from Sheryl's comments, which we have not seen explored. Perhaps Galaxy is a really bleak place...

Maybe someone did say this before. This is more like a Cold War where one party has no idea that war is being engaged?

...

Another note on the episode and watchign Sheryl and her reaction to the news that Alto had heard both Ranka and Sheryl singing... she didn't look as surprised, and so it brings into question how much she knows about her earrings!

Edited July 20, 2008 by s-girl

[junior]

but we know that Frontier is likely some kind of democracy or assume so because we've seen President Glass enough times to get the feeling about his style of governance.

There's information that suggests that Howard Glass is president of the entire NUNS, and not just Macross Frontier. That would include Macross Galaxy.

[RedWolf]

I was sort of thinking that it's not just about taking over the resources/assimilating Frontier to prop up Galaxy, but to also wipe out the symbolic existence of Frontier. The dynamics on Galaxy are really almost a completely different type of world, and you have the predominant "race or entity" taking on very aggressive tactics, whereas Frontier seems to be a more peaceful coexistence.

And it is rather compelling to me to consider that each colony has its own governmental system. I don't know enough about the world construct at this time in Macross history, but we know that Frontier is likely some kind of democracy or assume so because we've seen President Glass enough times to get the feeling about his style of governance. Unless I missed something, we know nothing about the way Galaxy works.

It would be pretty interesting if Galaxy were run pretty much as a controlled, almost oligarchical environment. We have only the slightest of hints that things weren't so great on Galaxy from Sheryl's comments, which we have not seen explored. Perhaps Galaxy is a really bleak place...

Maybe someone did say this before. This is more like a Cold War where one party has no idea that war is being engaged?

...

Another note on the episode and watchign Sheryl and her reaction to the news that Alto had heard both Ranka and Sheryl singing... she didn't look as surprised, and so it brings into question how much she knows about her earrings!

So basically you're saying the the human-Zentradi are going into its own schism war with Galaxy and Frontier.

We don't know much about the Protoculture but one group, who was behind the Anima Spiritia, advocated coexistence of their children.

The Birdman on the otherhand had a scorch Earth protocol just in case humans became a interstellar threat.

[Kronnang Dunn]

There's information that suggests that Howard Glass is president of the entire NUNS, and not just Macross Frontier. That would include Macross Galaxy.

Err... actually it does not "suggest". The official site clearly says that Glass is president of the New United Nations Goverment... and executive administrator of the Frontier fleet...

His administration was responsible for the creation of the Frontier fleet...

[tankf77]

I got more of the impression that Mr. Bilrer was someone who was aware of, and is opposing Grace's group. Making Alto undetectable to them once entering his house was the big tip off. As well as how the SMS have been a thorn in Grace's groups sides, complete with adopting the apparently unexpected VF-25.

Speaking of the VF-25, Kei's translation said "the VF-24 is underrated...". My question is compared to whom? The VF-171?

[David Hingtgen]

They're saying, the YF-24's specs were used by the conspirators to estimate how the (then still under development) VF-25 would perform in battle---but the actual VF-25 is doing much better than they expected. I think the VF-27 was designed specifically to counter the VF-25 and beat it--but since the VF-25 is better than they thought, the VF-27's superiority isn't so big/guaranteed. Plus the VF-25's doing better against Vajra, capital ships, alien queens, etc than they expected.

Episode 1 gives the impression that the Vajra attack on Frontier was probably the first time the VF-25 had ever seen combat.

[HMP_Goose]

I think Sheryl is a force-growth clone of Ranka's mom, a tool of the Cyber Conspiracy from the get-go. She was the best they could do since they though Ranka, the "Little Queen" was thought to be gone when the 117th Fleet was blown up good when some experiment went wrong in the face of the Varja.

I still can't guess what the plan was before Ranka showed up on Galia-4: Rouge Zentrans where gon'a nuke Frontier, and the retaliation was going to go were? Back down to Galia, which would have gotten the Varja to lift off?

I still need to see what shape Ranka's pet turns into: Should tell us something about why the 117th was messing around with them . . .

[Kronnang Dunn]

Episode 1 gives the impression that the Vajra attack on Frontier was probably the first time the VF-25 had ever seen combat.

Yes... and according to what the Grace-union said in episode 15, they were the ones who lured the Vajra towards Frontier. I wonder how?

[junior]

I still can't guess what the plan was before Ranka showed up on Galia-4: Rouge Zentrans where gon'a nuke Frontier, and the retaliation was going to go were? Back down to Galia, which would have gotten the Varja to lift off?

I think the original plan was for the Zentraedi civil war to buy Brera enough time to get information from the Global (Alto notes that the computer in the Lab on the Global has been recently wiped, which means that someone was there shortly before him and the only person in position to do that was Brera) without any interference (there's always the small possibility that the 33rd Marine Corps might have noticed him), and then rile the Vajra up and get them moving. Once the Vajra were in the air, Grace would set off the Dimension Eater just as she did in episode 13.

There's no way that the Khyron clone would have been crazy enough to attack Frontier with just the Zentraedi command ship.

[Sulendil Ang]

Yes... and according to what the Grace-union said in episode 15, they were the ones who lured the Vajra towards Frontier. I wonder how?

By bringing Sherly into Frontier, I guess. Maybe Sherly is just a beacon that say 'Come here Vajra, here's some puny humans for you bugs to enjoy!'

[tankf77]

They're saying, the YF-24's specs were used by the conspirators to estimate how the (then still under development) VF-25 would perform in battle---but the actual VF-25 is doing much better than they expected. I think the VF-27 was designed specifically to counter the VF-25 and beat it--but since the VF-25 is better than they thought, the VF-27's superiority isn't so big/guaranteed. Plus the VF-25's doing better against Vajra, capital ships, alien queens, etc than they expected.

Episode 1 gives the impression that the Vajra attack on Frontier was probably the first time the VF-25 had ever seen combat.

So, initially Grace and co. had little respect for the VF-25 because they assumed that being a derivative of the YF-24, it may not be as good as their VF-27?

I think another aspect they overlook (possibly not by Mr. Bilrer) is the power of love that Sheryl and Ranka has for Alto. Eventually, that would be the factor that will bring their downfall.

[vanpang]

So, initially Grace and co. had little respect for the VF-25 because they assumed that being a derivative of the YF-24, it may not be as good as their VF-27?

I think another aspect they overlook (possibly not by Mr. Bilrer) is the power of love that Sheryl and Ranka has for Alto. Eventually, that would be the factor that will bring their downfall.

*nod *nod I agree. the power of love would probably turn the Vajra into defeating the Galaxy group !

[Final Vegeta]

Yes... and according to what the Grace-union said in episode 15, they were the ones who lured the Vajra towards Frontier. I wonder how?

It's specifically stated that they used fold comunication. No different from decoy whistles used for hunting birds.

FV

[Final Vegeta]

With high anticipation I started to watch Kei's subs but after running 1/2 of this episode, I grew so annoyed that I paused the whole thing, loaded this thread and voted 'Negative'. What were the makers thinking? That the viewers and in particular: me, would be satisfied with another rehash of previous episodes? Re-using all the occurances I have already seen before? The rest of this abomination they call episode 15 must be very very expensive to make, but the first frames showing Sheryl sitting on her sickbed and Grace talking to her made me cringe even more, what horrible animation!

And those annoying voice-overs, if it meant to be comical, I'm not laughing.

Gods, I'm so pissed and feeling betrayed.

I really hope for the DVD-release's sake, they rewrite and remake this whole episode to blot out this shameful lowpoint of otherwise a great series.

Young kids, these days

FV

[sketchley]

Err... actually it does not "suggest". The official site clearly says that Glass is president of the New United Nations Goverment... and executive administrator of the Frontier fleet...

His administration was responsible for the creation of the Frontier fleet...

It does, but also it begs the question: what is the New United Nations Government? By indications in the MF series, it is not the all encompassing savior of humanity. From what we know, the Galaxy fleet is seperate. The Frontier fleet, as well as all other long range emmigration fleets may also be all that composes the NUNG - with established colonies and Earth being either the (old) United Nations Government or seperate entities altogether.

I'm just throwing this out with little to no shreds of evidence. Hopefully this upcoming arc will expand on the change from UNG to NUNG.

[Shun]

I think the original plan was for the Zentraedi civil war to buy Brera enough time to get information from the Global (Alto notes that the computer in the Lab on the Global has been recently wiped, which means that someone was there shortly before him and the only person in position to do that was Brera) without any interference (there's always the small possibility that the 33rd Marine Corps might have noticed him), and then rile the Vajra up and get them moving. Once the Vajra were in the air, Grace would set off the Dimension Eater just as she did in episode 13.

There's no way that the Khyron clone would have been crazy enough to attack Frontier with just the Zentraedi command ship.

yup, that's most possibly the reason. seems like Galia 4 was just recently discovered: Alto also mentioned that the zents did not scout the planet due to the protest from Temjin's troops. but its kinda weird how Grace knew about the Global yet the zents didnt... perhaps they did too, but the mutiny broke out (instigated by Grace) before they sent scouts there.

i don't think Grace needs Temjin to do anything other than to hold Ogotai's troops in a stalemate, and she wouldn't be interested if they killed each other, doesn't matter because any survivors will still die by the Dimension Eater.

So, initially Grace and co. had little respect for the VF-25 because they assumed that being a derivative of the YF-24, it may not be as good as their VF-27?

I think another aspect they overlook (possibly not by Mr. Bilrer) is the power of love that Sheryl and Ranka has for Alto. Eventually, that would be the factor that will bring their downfall.

Since the VF-25 is known to be developed from YF-24, Grace's side must've depended alot on YF-24's stats in their simulations, and underestimated LAI and their VF-25. actually i have the same thinking as you regarding how the Grace & co might have overlooked how important Alto is (or how important love is or how it might affect Ranka or Sheryl) - they only see him as a pilot and nothing else, yet Mr Bilrer might have something up his sleeves. I get the feeling of Mr Bilrer playing a chess game with Grace, and his moves seem much more indirect yet effective, and perhaps he will surprise Grace & co.

Grace group seems to me to be people who are obsessed in their own quest to enhance themselves: be it cybernetics implants anything they consider to be superior, they will even give up their own humanity and sacrifice the lives of others. Technological advancements vs keeping it natural like in the Frontier. As the saying goes: you win some, you lose some - Grace group might have gained alot from implants and all, but perhaps it is the humanity that they have lost that becomes their undoing.

BTW, i see some comments regarding Mr Bilrer being a cyborg or having implants, but other than his right eye which really seems like a common thing among Zentradi Commander types, i'm not really convinced he's a cyborg or has implants like Grace. Perhaps the speculation is due to the two gems on his forehead. anyway just wanted to point out that if he has implants or is similar to Grace, he wouldn't need to look at a monitor like he did in ep 7 when the Vajra ship appeared. Guess its WAFO...

[RedWolf]

Bilrer's implants does resemble Gigil's, formerly UN Spacy commando Automann.

[DeeBot]

Something that's been bothering me is the role of the reaction warheads on the planet. I think I've come to some solid conclusions about them, though.

If Grace's original home was the Global, it makes sense that she might have known the final resting place of the 117th fleet (so that answers the how-did-she-know-it-was-there question).

The reaction warheads, and their storage facility, also probably came from the 117th fleet, and also explains how Grace knew about them so intimately. If that's the case, the 117th must have made an extended stay on Galia 4, establishing a long-term base there (rather than just crashing there during an emergency). Otherwise, there's no logical reason to build structures or relocate the reaction warheads.

Which seems to indicate that whatever the 117th did on the planet took some time... beyond that, I've got nothing.

[RedWolf]

Er no. Given the Advisor's alarm that Temzin broke the reaction weapon storage the 33rd has a stockpile of it.

More likely Grace gave the arming codes to Temzin.

In Macross Dynamite 7 the smuggled reaction warhead had a corresponding arming code device. Pirate/Poachers wanted to blow the giant white space whale.

[tankf77]

It's specifically stated that they used fold comunication. No different from decoy whistles used for hunting birds.

FV

Any plausible theories as to what make the Vajras tick? I remember the queen was trying to communicate with Ranka, to what purpose was the communication?

Furthermore, when Howard Glass peered into the display of possible Vajra concentration around Frontier's known space, that means there could be more than one "Vajra queen" and their "threat to humanity" is not totally eliminated.

[RedWolf]

Any plausible theories as to what make the Vajras tick? I remember the queen was trying to communicate with Ranka, to what purpose was the communication?

Furthermore, when Howard Glass peered into the display of possible Vajra concentration around Frontier's known space, that means there could be more than one "Vajra queen" and their "threat to humanity" is not totally eliminated.

Lol as big as a Zentradi fleet of Gorg Bodol Zer, 4,795,122 ships.

Where's you're Minmay now huh?

Oh wait you now have the little queen Q1 now.

Sound Force 2.0 as old Col. Barton wanted Operation M to be, under the military jurisdiction.

No civilian rockstars you can't control.

Fairy 9 had the same role but Galaxy Anonymous judged her as defective thus disposable.

If Alto is any indication it'll take both Q1 and Fairy 9 to stop this war.

[Mr March]

They're saying, the YF-24's specs were used by the conspirators to estimate how the (then still under development) VF-25 would perform in battle---but the actual VF-25 is doing much better than they expected. I think the VF-27 was designed specifically to counter the VF-25 and beat it--but since the VF-25 is better than they thought, the VF-27's superiority isn't so big/guaranteed. Plus the VF-25's doing better against Vajra, capital ships, alien queens, etc than they expected.

Episode 1 gives the impression that the Vajra attack on Frontier was probably the first time the VF-25 had ever seen combat.

I'm definitely getting the same vibe when I watch that episode. I think Grace and her cohorts were anticipating the VF-27 would juggernaught over the VF-171 and the VF-25 (based on espionage of the YF-24). It also appears that not just the VF-25, but generally speaking I think the SMS has been underestimated by the Galaxy conspirators. Grace and Co. obviously know well of the NUNS and their weaknesses, but I think the SMS is a wild card.

Which begs the question: how much does Sir Richard Branson...er, I mean Richard Birla know about the the Grace/Galaxy conspiracy? If he knows plenty, why didn't he let anyone else know? Perhaps he suspected the Galaxy/NUNS collusion that's going on right now, between Grace and Leon? Perhaps Birla felt that if he were to let anyone know, he might bring attention upon himself and his company before he was ready to move his resources into play? That might explain a lot and why the Grace/Galaxy conspiracy didn't expect Birla and his SMS company to play such a big factor.

[Shaka_Z]

Like I said in the ep 15 thread, odds are that in this game of chess, Grace has had a knight in the form of Brera while Bilrer has lacked one up until he realized Alto's characteristics (for lack of a better term - Alto is able to go head to head with Brera, and has deep connections to both of the girls), hence the unusual step of meeting with the newly promoted lieutenant.

[azrael]

Like I said in the ep 15 thread,

This is the episode 15 thread.

[Mr March]

"You are the brute squad"

Not a bad theory. I suppose it makes sense. Based on their encounters Alto and Brera seem pretty close in skill, with the latest round going to Brera. I guess this puts Birla in a more positive light. He sure seemed rather villainous and ominous in the beginning, but I suppose that was the intent of the creative team to keep us guessing.

Edited July 20, 2008 by Mr March

[s001]

My opinion on this episode: By the last minutes I didn't even know if I was still watching a Macross show!!!