kaiotheforsaken Posted March 30, 2011 Posted March 30, 2011 Fair enough with regards to the Batarians. They aren't exactly the most reasonable species in the galaxy. I certainly acknowledge that something had to be done about the relay. While Shepard has begun to put the pieces in place for a massive, multi-species offensive against the Reapers, it's doubtful any of them are ready (though the Geth and the Rachni may be exceptions). In any case, the choice was made and it's part of my save now. So w/e the ramifications of that are, I'll just have to muddle through. I just hope that ME3 allows those of us who wish to keep Shepard honorable do so.
Duke Togo Posted March 30, 2011 Author Posted March 30, 2011 One thing to keep in mind: this is a totally optional DLC. That means whatever impact it has on ME3 will not be integral to the plot. It probably means little more than additional dialog/mail/news reports.
kaiotheforsaken Posted March 30, 2011 Posted March 30, 2011 That is very very true and despite all my nitpicking, I did enjoy the bow it puts on ME2. I'm really looking forward to the 3rd game and seeing everything come together in truly epic fashion.
raptormesh Posted March 30, 2011 Posted March 30, 2011 IMO it's just a plot device to get Shepard to Earth as a stage setting in ME3. Shepard goes to Earth, Reapers attack earth(perhaps tied to the CG trailer), Shepard kicks Reaper ass on Earth etc.
Lynx7725 Posted March 30, 2011 Posted March 30, 2011 (edited) One thing to keep in mind: this is a totally optional DLC. That means whatever impact it has on ME3 will not be integral to the plot. It probably means little more than additional dialog/mail/news reports. Uh not quite true... The way the story is set up, it would be canonical that the Alpha relay is destroyed and the batarian colony was lost, and that Shepard is somehow implicated. This is possibly a major plot point when Shepard tries to rally support from batarians to oppose the Reapers. It's like the human councilor choice: you can choose in ME1 who becomes the councilor, Udina or Anderson, but Bioware has a default choice in ME2 and it does have an effect in ME2 as to whether you can be reinstated as a Spectre. Likely, this can snowball; as a Spectre, Shepard's choice at the Alpha relay is answerable only to the Council and can be deflected there (since the operation is not human -- neither Alliance nor Cerberus). But without Spectre status, Shepard is answerable for terrorism and mass-murder as a representative of the human race. With the batarians having an axe to grind against human, it is a potential big plot point to overcome in ME3. Similarly, the choices made by the player in this DLC may have an impact on this; for example making an attempt to contact the colony can be used by the defense to show intent. But Bioware can always set a canon choice and any player who did not have this DLC would have to abide by the canon choice. Interestingly, a plot hole I just realised. In ME2, the implication is that the Reapers did not start their trip to the galaxy until after the Collectors are dead. However, in a particular case (i.e., when you start on this mission right after Horizon), the implication can be that the Collectors are in the galaxy even as you work to deal with the Collectors -- recall that no matter whether you destroy the Relay or not, the Collectors are due to show up in the system within a hour. Overall, in terms of plot integration, the Arrival DLC is much less flexible; quite clearly meant to be done after you completed the Omega-4 mission. Bioware did try to make it more flexible, but the attempt instead highlights that it simply wasn't meant to be. There's of course a question of how Shepard knew about Reaper indoctrination from old Reaper items if you do this DLC early; there isn't exactly a lot of ancient dead Reapers floating around for indoctrination to be a well known effect, and it's really after the derelict Reaper that the devastating effects of indoctrination even from hanging around dead stuff is more known. How exactly does Shepard understand the risks of Reaper artifact indoctrination such that he can warn the doctor about this is a bit of a plot hole. Edited March 30, 2011 by Lynx7725
kaiotheforsaken Posted March 30, 2011 Posted March 30, 2011 I think the events of ME1 probably give him enough cause to voice concerns about Reaper indoctrination, but your point is valid. While the events of the DLC could go the way Lynx suggests (which would make perfect sense) Bioware has also said they do not intend to penalize anyone who opts to not pay for them. So the question is, do they make the implications of the DLC small or non existent or do they just stick a canon choice in there and force people who didn't get the DLC to deal with it. While this newest DLC doesn't have much choice (or any really) do you subject players to the fallout of those events even if they didn't specifically play it.
Lynx7725 Posted March 30, 2011 Posted March 30, 2011 While the events of the DLC could go the way Lynx suggests (which would make perfect sense) Bioware has also said they do not intend to penalize anyone who opts to not pay for them. So the question is, do they make the implications of the DLC small or non existent or do they just stick a canon choice in there and force people who didn't get the DLC to deal with it. While this newest DLC doesn't have much choice (or any really) do you subject players to the fallout of those events even if they didn't specifically play it. Hey, I got stuck with Udina as councilor in ME2...
eugimon Posted March 30, 2011 Posted March 30, 2011 Uh not quite true... The way the story is set up, it would be canonical that the Alpha relay is destroyed and the batarian colony was lost, and that Shepard is somehow implicated. This is possibly a major plot point when Shepard tries to rally support from batarians to oppose the Reapers. It's like the human councilor choice: you can choose in ME1 who becomes the councilor, Udina or Anderson, but Bioware has a default choice in ME2 and it does have an effect in ME2 as to whether you can be reinstated as a Spectre. Likely, this can snowball; as a Spectre, Shepard's choice at the Alpha relay is answerable only to the Council and can be deflected there (since the operation is not human -- neither Alliance nor Cerberus). But without Spectre status, Shepard is answerable for terrorism and mass-murder as a representative of the human race. With the batarians having an axe to grind against human, it is a potential big plot point to overcome in ME3. Similarly, the choices made by the player in this DLC may have an impact on this; for example making an attempt to contact the colony can be used by the defense to show intent. But Bioware can always set a canon choice and any player who did not have this DLC would have to abide by the canon choice. Interestingly, a plot hole I just realised. In ME2, the implication is that the Reapers did not start their trip to the galaxy until after the Collectors are dead. However, in a particular case (i.e., when you start on this mission right after Horizon), the implication can be that the Collectors are in the galaxy even as you work to deal with the Collectors -- recall that no matter whether you destroy the Relay or not, the Collectors are due to show up in the system within a hour. Overall, in terms of plot integration, the Arrival DLC is much less flexible; quite clearly meant to be done after you completed the Omega-4 mission. Bioware did try to make it more flexible, but the attempt instead highlights that it simply wasn't meant to be. There's of course a question of how Shepard knew about Reaper indoctrination from old Reaper items if you do this DLC early; there isn't exactly a lot of ancient dead Reapers floating around for indoctrination to be a well known effect, and it's really after the derelict Reaper that the devastating effects of indoctrination even from hanging around dead stuff is more known. How exactly does Shepard understand the risks of Reaper artifact indoctrination such that he can warn the doctor about this is a bit of a plot hole. Well, both Saren and the Matriarch were indoctrinated in the first game and the Doctor tells Shepard that the artifact has been beaming visions into her head. So even if Shepard doesn't know the exact details, Shepard would should still be able to make the logical leap that being around the artifact is a bad thing.
Lynx7725 Posted March 30, 2011 Posted March 30, 2011 (edited) Ok, just finished my second Arrival run. Same Paragon Sniper. Took all the achievements -- thought I'll need a second run but turned out wasn't necessary. Real spoilers below. The first, Covert Action is simple with an Infiltrator. Just cloak, move, hide, wait till recharge, repeat. You can kill varren, just don't annoy the batarians. Annoyingly, sound bites seem to indicate you have been spotted but as long as you don't shoot any batarians you should be good. Took the Viper instead of the Widow this time. Was a lot easier. The greater ammo load makes it much more relaxing and the killing power against the typical batarian is sufficient. Even YMIRs aren't that bad. Yes, there is a third tech upgrade -- a Heavy Weapons upgrade, bringing it to a total of 7/7. Which probably makes a difference for 2 Cain shots against Mr. T. at the end of the story. Makes it a bit more worthwhile to pick up the DLC but still not quite up there. This upgrade is hidden behind the broken flaming pipes. You need to turn off the two separate flamers in order to get to it. Experiment around and it should be straightforward. The other upgrade is a medi-gel upgrade, and this one is past the prison hanger. You need to play a bit with the loading crane to get to it. The second achievement is Last Stand, where Kenson leads you into an ambush. There are 5 waves of attackers but it ain't too bad... if you picked the right weapons. I used a grenade launcher for room clearing, works a charm. You have a chance in the hanger at the start of the level to swap weapons so you might want to, and note that you don't really pick up any heavy weapon ammo in this DLC -- I recall only two. So Cain-clearing isn't really an option. At any rate, I ran out of ammo in about the 3rd or 4th wave, but it's quite useful in the tight confines -- blast radius was taking multiples out at a go. Prioritize on Pyros as those are really annoying, but anything in a clump can get grenade love too. Take note that you start near the center front of the room but it's best to get out of there pronto -- it's lousy cover. I think the left inner side of the room is better because of some stairs there which would block the last wave's YMIR, and that the waves would come in from a door and drop from the upper storey in front of the area, so you get a good spot to camp and kill. A specific tip for Infiltrators -- if you are having problems with pyros or just basic guys pinning you down, cloak. The AI has a bad habit, once you cloak the guy would stop doing everything. If he was in cover he would duck back, but if he wasn't he'll freeze there. I had a few occasion where the pyro was bearing down on me, and I cloaked, and he just stood there for me to shoot in the head. Not brilliant AI. One thing is that you will be captured, just whether the waves take you down or the Reaper Artifact knocks you out. I was "killed" by the waves the first time and was surprised. After that, it's really your basic Shepard doctrine. Kill everything that is moving, grab everything that's not nailed down. Not too bad as a DLC. Just remember to pick up the third tech upgrade on your way out the base -- peek into that side room to pick it up. Edited March 30, 2011 by Lynx7725
Lynx7725 Posted March 30, 2011 Posted March 30, 2011 And strange thoughts come to you as you meditate on the porcelain throne. If Mass Relays are built by Reapers, essentially Reaper artifacts, why aren't every traveller who spend enough time going through them indoctrinated...?
David Hingtgen Posted March 30, 2011 Posted March 30, 2011 Doesn't indoctrination require a reaper itself? The citadel doesn't do it either.
Lynx7725 Posted March 30, 2011 Posted March 30, 2011 Doesn't indoctrination require a reaper itself? The citadel doesn't do it either. Point, but that also means all those little reaper artifacts lying around in ME2 -- I can think of 2, maybe 3 missions -- are all little bits of reapers?
eugimon Posted March 30, 2011 Posted March 30, 2011 And strange thoughts come to you as you meditate on the porcelain throne. If Mass Relays are built by Reapers, essentially Reaper artifacts, why aren't every traveller who spend enough time going through them indoctrinated...? During the last battle in ME2, it sounds like the Reapers are saying there's something worse than them out there. Or maybe the reapers are more interested in shaping the evolution of the galaxy towards a specific goal rather than just complete domination?
kaiotheforsaken Posted March 30, 2011 Posted March 30, 2011 (edited) I think Eugimon has been indoctrinated with a statement like that Listening Harbinger's speech at the end of the game (just found it on youtube again) sounds to me like the Reapers are the nastiest thing out there. Though a twist to make them not would be fairly epic, it would likely feel pretty shoe horned in since we've had no evidence of anything worse. On the indoctrination thing, it seems that Reapers as well as certain Reaper artifacts have the ability to do so. I imagine, however, that the artifacts are that spread indoctrination are designed for just that purpose. Because the relays are such an important part of galactic travel, it may not be in the Reapers best interest to indoctrinate everyone that goes though them. In theory anyway, it could severely stunt the development of a species if once they started using the relay they all became servants of Reapers (especially if there was no Reaper to give them specific orders). The Reapers also seem to like to keep a relatively low profile between arrivals. If the relays were obviously Reaper technology, people might catch on much quicker, or find clues or warnings left from past civilizations. The Relays and the Citadel, as the are now, serve a purpose and shape civilizations that find them a certain way. This alone may be all the Reapers require of those specific items. That's all just theory on my part, but it seems sensible. However, there is an even simpler explanation which is this: If the relays (and the citadel) were capable of indoctrinating all those who came in contact with them, Shepard (as well as every character we've met) would be a servant of the Reapers and we wouldn't have much of a story. Edited March 30, 2011 by kaiotheforsaken
eugimon Posted March 30, 2011 Posted March 30, 2011 it's that line about salvation through destruction which makes me think that there's some other actor in all this.
kaiotheforsaken Posted March 30, 2011 Posted March 30, 2011 I always took that as the Reapers seeing all other forms of life as inferior, and that other species are elevated when altered or consumed for Reaper use. Or, the Reapers are intending to utilize humans in much the way they did the Protheans, so the species is "saved" from the cosmic extinction in a sense.
eugimon Posted March 30, 2011 Posted March 30, 2011 But if that was it, why the cycle of expansion and contraction. It seems like there's some goal.
kaiotheforsaken Posted March 30, 2011 Posted March 30, 2011 I always thought of the Reapers as similar to the Borg. They show up and essentially assimilate anything biological or technological that will benefit them in some way, (after all, most ME modern tech is based of things the Reapers left for species to find) and they consume the rest (perhaps for a form of reproduction like the human reaper). Then they leave and wait for societies to advance to a point where they can be used again, they may even help along some species so as to keep the cycle at a constant interval.
eugimon Posted March 30, 2011 Posted March 30, 2011 I always thought of the Reapers as similar to the Borg. They show up and essentially assimilate anything biological or technological that will benefit them in some way, (after all, most ME modern tech is based of things the Reapers left for species to find) and they consume the rest (perhaps for a form of reproduction like the human reaper). Then they leave and wait for societies to advance to a point where they can be used again, they may even help along some species so as to keep the cycle at a constant interval. Yeah, okay... but if the reapers are constantly culling the galaxy before the reach a level where they can be a threat (understanding mass effect, relays, etc) then what can they possibly be getting that would be beneficial to them?
one_klump Posted March 30, 2011 Posted March 30, 2011 When you first meet the Collectors, they say something along the lines of "Prepare the humans for ascension". That makes me think that the Reapers need the raw genetic material of other life to reproduce. After all, in ME1, the reaper basically calls Shepard an insect, inferring that all life in the galaxy is pretty much worthless until the Reapers cull it. Fits the Reaper superiority complex. Also, I'm sensing that the Citadel is part of a Reaper super weapon in ME3.
eugimon Posted March 30, 2011 Posted March 30, 2011 When you first meet the Collectors, they say something along the lines of "Prepare the humans for ascension". That makes me think that the Reapers need the raw genetic material of other life to reproduce. After all, in ME1, the reaper basically calls Shepard an insect, inferring that all life in the galaxy is pretty much worthless until the Reapers cull it. Fits the Reaper superiority complex. Yeah, I was thinking that too but then right before you face off against the uber T, EDI says she's getting (paraphrasing) "biological AND Reaper" readings. And if the Reapers use the bio-smoothie to reproduce, why would the uber-T have that unique reading and why would it be a giant humanoid reaper and not some sort of squidy-reaper-fetus thing? Also, I'm sensing that the Citadel is part of a Reaper super weapon in ME3. Me too... there's gotta be a big reason why the reapers keep it around, leave it staffed with nerf'd protheans and made a bee line straight to it with sovereign.
raptormesh Posted March 31, 2011 Posted March 31, 2011 Maybe the creators of the Reapers uses them to cyclically destroy civilizations in multiple galaxies in order to evolve one that is capable of beating them back. It's cheesy, macho and typical of Bioware.
kaiotheforsaken Posted March 31, 2011 Posted March 31, 2011 (edited) Wasn't the citadel a huge mass relay? I thought sovereign was attempting to activate it to bring the reapers through. Seeing as its consistently the center of galactic life, it would make sense that it's their preferred entry point. I'm fairly certain that's it's function. Edit: Here we go, from the ME wiki and I believe covered by the Prothean beacon on Ilos "The station is actually an inactive mass relay leading to dark space, designed as an elaborate trap so the Reapers can wipe out the heart of galactic civilization and leadership in a single, devastating strike. " It also says in the same article that it was the biggest Mass Relay hub, or one of the biggest. So it would allow the Reapers to fan out in the most efficient manner as they moved through out the galaxy. So it makes perfect sense to have it and keep maintained. Edited March 31, 2011 by kaiotheforsaken
Lynx7725 Posted March 31, 2011 Posted March 31, 2011 (edited) The Reapers' control of Citadel sort of got blocked by the Proteans IIRC. That's the reason behind Sovereign's attack on the Citadel in ME1 -- to reassert control so that the main Reaper fleet can come in. I believe the final boss in ME2 might have been intended to be a second attempt to attack and regain control of the Citadel relay, but the timeline is off*. Have to give it to the Reapers, they do believe in contingency planning. First, they cunningly set up a system of super-science travel devices that are easily understood by lesser races so that they will become dependent on these relays; they build a hidden hub (Citadel) so that they can reassert control over the entire network, then go off into dark space to hibernate. But just in case there's a problem with the hub they leave a vanguard (Sovereign) to make sure they can reassert control. But just in case the vanguard failed, they have a client/ genegineered race (the Collectors) complete with a technologically impressive base to support and provide secondary backup plans. And just in case that failed too, they plan to: simply sail through the void into a fringe system, conveniently having placed an relay which is a hidden primary level relay mode so that they have short cuts to anywhere in the galaxy. Essentially, a backup Citadel! -- as a THIRD-Level backup plan! C'mon Bioware. No human is that good. I guess that's why the Reapers aren't human.... * The reason why I say the timeline is off is this: the proto-Reaper in ME2 is still under construction, and still needed a good number of human colonists/ nutrient paste to complete. Given that the Reaper fleet is right next door (with the speed at which they appeared in Arrival!) and that there's the Alpha relay in that system, it didn't make sense for the proto-Reaper to be built for a second attack on the Citadel; likely, it's just a replacement for Sovereign. Which made the ME2 story not fit into the "Reaper threat to Citadel Space" storyline, but more of a "stop Reaper-backed terrorism on humanity" issue. Makes sense, for a Cerberus-backed storyline. Also, come to think of it, no matter which way we slice it the Arrival DLC diced the canon a bit. The original impression is that the Reaper fleet started moving only after the Collector General was killed, but I understand that if you play the DLC before you complete the Suicide Run, it would not be Harbinger that appears in the hologram at the end but the Collector General (fronting for the Harbinger). That being the case, the Reaper Fleet will now be implied to be moving even before the destruction of the Collectors. Which begs the questions: what made them move so early? Is the Collectors' harvesting merely an early pregnancy? Was the whole ME2 storyline a wild goose chase that sent Shepard running over the galaxy... as a distraction? Ah you wacky Reapers... Edited March 31, 2011 by Lynx7725
HoveringCheesecake Posted March 31, 2011 Posted March 31, 2011 Has anyone else talked to Legion as a pure Renegade after you save the Collector Base? I can't remember exactly what he says since it was two months ago, but I'm pretty sure he said he was surprised by my decision, and that the Reapers were originally organic beings that uploaded themselves to the giant space crabs. Dunno if they turned themselves into smoothies first, though. Of course, the only endgame dialogue that isn't on youtube is Legion's and my saves from the base were overwritten because I did Shadow Broker after the Suicide Mission. Maybe I'm just making poo up.
Funkenstein Posted April 7, 2011 Posted April 7, 2011 Apparently there's a Mass Efect anime film coming out next year Mass Effect, produced by Funimation
Ghost Train Posted April 8, 2011 Posted April 8, 2011 I hope it's a harem-themed series . Tsundere Miranda, Imouto Fem Shepard, One-Sama Chakwas, Magical Space Girl Liara, and Moe Android Legion.
Zor Primus Posted April 8, 2011 Posted April 8, 2011 <3 Bioware...I am getting a free PC version of ME2 as a thanks for helping making Dragon Age so awesome! I CAN'T WAIT FOR THE OLD REPUBLIC!
Lynx7725 Posted April 8, 2011 Posted April 8, 2011 (edited) .... and in breaking news... Hmm. Like Garrus. Don't like Liara. Will miss Legion (actually his big gun). And we go running around recruiting.. AGAIN? *faint* Don't quite like the idea of bigger skill tree.. the ME2 version is a bit short but also about right. Mod and scopes on weapons, I like. But possibly cosmetic I think. Edited April 8, 2011 by Lynx7725
CoryHolmes Posted April 8, 2011 Posted April 8, 2011 Another 'gather the team' game? *snaps controller in half with bare hands* BioWare, you stretched how much I would buy that concept with the second game (even if you pulled it off well) but a third time is just too much. *rolls up newspaper* Whap! Bad Game.
Funkenstein Posted April 8, 2011 Posted April 8, 2011 (edited) Sweet Lincolns's Mullet. That's not an April's Fool prank is it? Edited April 8, 2011 by Funkenstein
HoveringCheesecake Posted April 8, 2011 Posted April 8, 2011 Another 'gather the team' game? *snaps controller in half with bare hands* BioWare, you stretched how much I would buy that concept with the second game (even if you pulled it off well) but a third time is just too much. *rolls up newspaper* Whap! Bad Game. Yeah, what the hell are they thinking? Hopefully the recruitment is more like ME where you just kind of ran into squadmates and they joined you, instead of Shepard having to travel the galaxy to recruit his team. That was enough to last a damned lifetime. I'm glad Ashley is confirmed to be back. Looks like I may finish my Ashley-faithful playthrough after all. The prologue sounds fun as well. Hopefully we get the British Sniper aka Nigel Fishnchips on our team. Most importantly: why the hell is Cerberus chasing Shepard? Even if he did decide to blow up the Collector Base, The Illusive Man knows that Shepard is humanity's last best hope. Has he been indoctrinated and working for the Reapers all along? Looks like they went with that predictable plot twist, otherwise it makes little sense. We know from the awful comics that he was zapped by a Reaper artifact during the First Contact War - hence his husk eyes. Either way, I'm still excited and I'll probably buy the super-exclusive edition.
eugimon Posted April 8, 2011 Posted April 8, 2011 Considering the potential party members in ME3, I really don't have a problem gathering party members but I think it's going to be more like gathering FLEETS
CoryHolmes Posted April 9, 2011 Posted April 9, 2011 I'm glad Ashley is confirmed to be back. Looks like I may finish my Ashley-faithful playthrough after all. True. Either way, I'm still excited and I'll probably buy the super-exclusive edition. Also true
kaiotheforsaken Posted April 9, 2011 Posted April 9, 2011 Lot of assumptions being made already, I'm going to try and reserve judgment though. Most of the changes seem like exactly what many of us asked for. The fact Bioware stripped out almost all RPG elements from 2 was one of the biggest flaws imo. That being said, lack of Legion as a squadmate is supremely disappointing. If he anything, he is the one party member who has no reason to leave. He doesn't need to go back to the Geth homeworld to rally them or anything. They keep managing to cut out the party members I like best. I hope the fleet gathering is better than Dragon Age's army gathering, but imo ME has always been better than DA. I also like that the Illusive Man is showing his true colors and that it seems like he is going to try and screw you over even if you helped him. Gathering of certain squadmates doesn't bother me either, even if the game picked up literally the minute after all of ME2, you'd still to reunite with some people. I'm liking the info that's slowly coming out about this game. I too will be buying w/e the craziest edition is
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