Dr. Mao or How Alto Learned to Love the Bomb

[ComicKaze]

I've given my first negative vote of the series.

Terrible 2D animation, the story was terribly anti-climatic and the pacing was awful with no suspense or plausibility at all. Talk about too easy. Vajra's went from overwhelmingly invincible, even as a lone unit at the beginning of the series that was endangering the Frontier Fleet by itself...to the point where Alto can just fly in unmolested to the capital ship through thousands and thousands and Vajra, kill the queen, and fly out while the humans just go and nuke everything. (Brera as well). Remember Ozma unloading his fast pack missiles as the single Vajra in the beginning of the series and it didn't even leave a scratch? Now Alto can take out dozens, even hundreds at a time with the same system.

Sigh...COME ON. This is Macross. He's a highschooler who has only flown the VF-25 for a few months against a much superior and myteriously super-powerful alien foe... He's not Newtype Superman flying a bloody Gundam Zeta taking Zaku's out for cannon-fodder lunch. Don't fall to Gundam syndrome Macross!!! This series is going down the tubes fast. I hate shows that do this.

I think the beauty of Macross was the story of how the humans managed to survive even though they found themselves so frail, weak, alone, and frightened in the universe that was opened up to them. What was wrong with that story? Now with Super-Saiyan Son Goku Ranma Saotome at the flightstick of Gundam Wing Zero on nuclear buster beam steroids...how can we suspend our disbelief in this story anymore? Who fears the Vajra anymore? As long as Frontier has a few nukes and Alto flying and going "UUUEEWWHHH!!!!" a lot, they'll be perfecctly fine (a few loyal citizens will get explosively decompressed every now and then). They just need to cover his back. Lob a few nukes out there...and the Macross Quarter will use it's Macross Canon like the cliche finishing move of every Sentai Show ever made to finish off the bad guy of the week.

The Vajra started out being nigh-invincible, a fearsome creature and an awe-inspiring foe that succeeded in making the audience feel the desperation and weakness of humanity again... and now they've instantly become so depowered and neutered that we are going to miserably be spending the rest of the series focused on government plots and conspiracies instead of watching good space opera. Even if we put aside Alto, there's still Brera and Grace, etc. and her faction who all seem to be even more powerful than the Vajra combined so the Vajra have just instantly become a flaccid enemy. What a let-down. I can't believe that at ep14, we're already seeing the enemy going down like flies syndrome of science fiction animes...Yes it's okay for the hero to bust into the main chamber of the big bad alien and blow his face away personally (case # 09282b, Ichijoe v. Boldolza 2010) ...but heck, it should come at the climax of the show.

Edited July 11, 2008 by ComicKaze

[dreamweaver13]

I've given my first negative vote of the series.

Terrible 2D animation, the story was terribly anti-climatic and the pacing was awful with no suspense or plausibility at all. Talk about too easy. Vajra's went from overwhelmingly invincible, even as a lone unit at the beginning of the series that was endangering the Frontier Fleet by itself...to the point where Alto can just fly in unmolested to the capital ship through thousands and thousands and Vajra, kill the queen, and fly out while the humans just go and nuke everything. (Brera as well). Remember Ozma unloading his fast pack missiles as the single Vajra in the beginning of the series and it didn't even leave a scratch? Now Alto can take out dozens, even hundreds at a time with the same system.

Sigh...COME ON. This is Macross. He's a highschooler who has only flown the VF-25 for a few months against a much superior and myteriously super-powerful alien foe... He's not Newtype Superman flying a bloody Gundam Zeta taking Zaku's out for cannon-fodder lunch. Don't fall to Gundam syndrome Macross!!! This series is going down the tubes fast. I hate shows that do this.

I think the beauty of Macross was the story of how the humans managed to survive even though they found themselves so frail, weak, alone, and frightened in the universe that was opened up to them. What was wrong with that story? Now with Super-Saiyan Son Goku Ranma Saotome at the flightslight of Gundam Wing Zero on nuclear buster beam steroids...how can we suspend our disbelief in this story anymore? Who fears the Vajra anymore? As long as Frontier has a few nukes and Alto flying and going "UUUEEWWHHH!!!!" a lot, they'll be perfecctly fine (a few loyal citizens will get explosively decompressed every now and then). They just need to cover his back. Lob a few nukes out there...and the Macross Quarter will use it's Macross Canon like the cliche finishing move of every Sentai Show ever made to finish off the bad guy of the week.

The Vajra started out being nigh-invincible, a fearsome creature and an awe-inspiring foe that succeeded in making the audience feel the desperation and weakness of humanity again... and now they've instantly become so depowered and neutered that we are going to miserably be spending the rest of the series focused on government plots and conspiracies instead of watching good space opera. Even if we put aside Alto, there's still Brera and Grace, etc. and her faction who all seem to be even more powerful than the Vajra combined so the Vajra have just instantly become a flaccid enemy. What a let-down. I can't believe that at ep14, we're already seeing the enemy going down like flies syndrome of science fiction animes...Yes it's okay for the hero to bust into the main chamber of the big bad alien and blow his face away personally (case # 09282b, Ichijoe v. Boldolza 2010) ...but heck, it should come at the climax of the show.

i feel you. i love that the vajra were invincible at the start. and i would have preferred that they went down with much more FIGHT in them.

on the other hand, if the theory going around is right, then they're NOT the real enemy, they're just the go-between to the discovery of the real enemy. if you take it that way, then the depowering of the vajra doesn't have to be as unreasonable or absurd as you say. in fact, it could have been intended to make you feel more sympathetic to them. after all, how could you experience a paradigm shift in your views towards the vajra if they're still as bad ass and killing off VF171s and beloved SMS characters with gusto?

and, oh by the way... what does Dr. Mao have anything to do with this??? This thread is a TRAP i tell you, a TRAP!

Edited July 11, 2008 by dreamweaver13

[Sumdumgai]

Alto has a lot of raw talent. Not as good as Max Jenius, but he's got a better track record than Hikaru Ichijo.

As for the Vajra being defeated easier, I view it as more powerful ammunition and missiles being used, since the standard stuff wasn't up to cracking those shells. I also think that we'll see the Vajra come back meaner than ever, or the Galaxy Fleet will wind up being enemies, or we're going to run into something else that'll make the Vajra look tame, or a mix of three, or something completely different.

Dr. Mao can waaaalk!

[Morpheus]

And don't forget that NUNS once manage to hold a red lobster in captive and analyze it, maybe from there they create some anti Vajra munitions. Never underestimate the engineering creativity of the Federation....I mean NUNS.

[Kai]

The question for me is: can Alto become this good so quickly without a montage? Even rocky had a montage

Ozma must be feeling like Hikaru when Max started prodding buttock in SDFM.

[Duke Togo]

This is Macross. He's a highschooler who has only flown the VF-25 for a few months against a much superior and myteriously super-powerful alien foe...

You do realize he had been in space flight training for the 4 years leading up to the first episode of Frontier, right? And why are you so fixated on how easily the Vajra went down, when they *seem* to be painting the Galaxy fleet as the true villian in the show.

[Duke Togo]

Honestly, sometimes I wonder while reading some of the posts around here if some people are actually watching the show, or just commenting on what they hear about it...

[Roy Focker]

I agree with Comickaze. I think you guys are just looking for excuses to explain things.

The Vajra were big, nasty and scary. In the last episode it looks like (I assume) the majority of them were destroyed. I thought maybe they were weaken when Ranka started to sing.

See even I'm looking for excuses.

[Gubaba]

Honestly, sometimes I wonder while reading some of the posts around here if some people are actually watching the show, or just commenting on what they hear about it...

That's a little unfair, I think. On another Macross forum, I saw someone complain about the Deculture Edition that here we have yet ANOTHER alien race that goes all emo over the power of song. Now THAT was someone who clearly didn't watch it. This, on the other hand, is a case of someone just not putting all the pieces together, or putting them together in a different way.

Regarding the vulnerability of the Vajra, I don't see it as a mystery. When they first attacked, they were completely unknown. But by now, NUNS has had A LOT of time to study them and figure out what works and what doesn't, so naturally fighting them will be easier. It's not like the Vajra have been impervious to reaction weapons the whole time. NUNS and SMS just have never thrown that many at them before.

And, as Duke said, Alto has been training for quite a while now...he didn't just get into the VF-25 with a manual and expect his Newtype awareness to fill in the blanks.

[Impreszive]

In the anime world...the adults can do nothink! The children shall lead the way!

joke.

It is pretty clear that the Vajra are a go-between for the big bad. Whether or not that is Galaxy or something else, we will find out. The Zentraedi were overpowered at the beginning of Macross as well. Well, ok, they were more numerous and numbers do count for a lot in battle. The show isn't bad. It isn't Hemingway or anything. Just enjoy it for what it is.

[Gubaba]

The show isn't bad. It isn't Hemingway or anything.

No, it's better. Because Hemingway (apart from "The Sun Also Rises" and a handful of short stories) sucks.

[Radd]

This wasn't exactly the final episode, you really think that's the end of the Vajra? Let alone the conspiracy we're seeing the edges of. At this point, I wouldn't be surprised if the Galaxy fleet is more or less intact, sitting on the sidelines as this plot plays out. I'm certainly expecting we'll see more of the Vajra.

Plus, Alto didn't exactly save the day here. To be quite honest, he had his thunder stolen right out from under him. Not to mention the influence Ranka might have had on what was done. I mean, I know they haven't come right out and said, "Ranka's some sort of Vajra queen!" or anything like that, but they did say right out that Ranka's some sort of Vajra queen. Just putting that out there. But ja, Brera Stern kinda stole his spotlight and came off as being the one who rescued the girl and ushered in the changing tide of the battle as far as the Frontier fleet is likely concerned. That's build-up right there, not climax.

That said, I do believe there's been pacing problems in the series since episode one. Poor pacing, and often cramming too much into an episode has really drained all the dramatic impact out of a lot of scenes that should have been great. On the other hand, I didn't think this episode suffered that nearly as much as some of the earlier episodes, and it did have a couple great moments, such as Sheryl's failed escape followed by Luca's failed rescue, finally culminating in the arrival of a very determined Alto.

On the other hand, though they said that the battle was a stalemate in the war room shots, all the battle shots showed SMS and NUNS pilots smacking Vajra around like so many red-headed stepchildren. Like I said though, the directing and pacing problems of Frontier have been there since the start, I just don't see this episode being any worse in that regard.

[Impreszive]

No, it's better. Because Hemingway (apart from "The Sun Also Rises" and a handful of short stories) sucks.

Damn and blast! Shakespere?

[Duke Togo]

That said, I do believe there's been pacing problems in the series since episode one. Poor pacing, and often cramming too much into an episode has really drained all the dramatic impact out of a lot of scenes that should have been great.

I wouldn't be surprised if this was largely the fault of their budget and the costs of the mecha and ship fx. On a production level, I think things were poorly planned out (or simply poor decisions were made concerning money allocation), and its suffered a little because of it. This isn't to say it sucks, I love the show. But the mistakes they are making are fairly obvious.

And, for the record, The Old Man and The Sea is my favorite book, and my first edition copy of it my most prized possession.

[Mr March]

I agree. If at this point the story isn't starting to form an overall message for the viewer, then that viewer needs to watch it more carefully. The Vajra's shift from intimidating to empathetic is intentional and has been building with plenty of subtle hints and foreshadowing for at least half a dozen episodes now.

Also, I'm a little saddened by this sudden love for invincible enemies. The invincible enemy is a concept for super robot shows and lesser series. Macross has always made at least an effort to acknowledge warfare realities. An enemy largely resistant to your weapons simply requires one use a bigger and/or better gun. That's the way it is in real warfare and that's the way Macross does it. Not enough firewpower? Bring out the heavy firepower via sniper guns and VB-6 Konigs. Gun pod doesn't work? Arm them with Anti-Vajra ESA munitions. If the Vajra were truly meant to be invincible, there wouldn't be much of a war now would there?

[Impreszive]

I wouldn't be surprised if this was largely the fault of their budget and the costs of the mecha and ship fx. On a production level, I think things were poorly planned out (or simply poor decisions were made concerning money allocation), and its suffered a little because of it. This isn't to say it sucks, I love the show. But the mistakes they are making are fairly obvious.

And, for the record, The Old Man and The Sea is my favorite book, and my first edition copy of it my most prized possession.

Wow. You have a first edition copy? That's actually pretty darn cool.

[CF18]

Yes it's okay for the hero to bust into the main chamber of the big bad alien and blow his face away personally (case # 09282b, Ichijoe v. Boldolza 2010) ...but heck, it should come at the climax of the show.

So you only want standard sci-fi with the hero just blast away the final boss by luck / technobabble / bruteforce? Well then you can just treat this episode as the final and forget about the rest.

The so called "power up" was already explained briefly in the missle rack scene and VF-25G /w ghost scene of episode 7. At least it is not a last second save by Mr Data's technobabble.

[Sulendil Ang]

Huh, what's all you guys are talking about?

At far as I'm concerned, VF-171 is already good enough to make this episode more awesome than all other episodes.

[Impreszive]

Huh, what's all you guys are talking about?

At far as I'm concerned, VF-171 is already good enough to make this episode more awesome than all other episodes.

The 171 did account itself quite well in this ep. Good to see the CFs getting a little payback.

[ChronoReverse]

I don't see the issue at all. Reaction weapons are super powerful, of course they'd work if the mini-macross cannon can work against a mothership.

Everyone else loaded up on the anti-Varja ESA ammo several episodes back. We already saw Ozma blow tons apart 7 episodes ago.

[VFTF1]

No, it's better. Because Hemingway (apart from "The Sun Also Rises" and a handful of short stories) sucks.

Damn and blast! Shakespere?

Sorry. Shakespeare doesn't cut it either. Aside from Caesar, and maybe Macbeth, most of Shakespeare pales in comparisson to Macross - Frontier included.

I personally don't understand why traditional "high" literature is always thrown around as being somehow "superior" to "pop culture" just by virtue of predating popculture.

All of the most powerful elements of Shakespearian drama are present in Macross - in fact, I remind everyone that initially the SDF-1 was supposed to be called the Macbeth.

However, Macross goes far beyond Shakespeare because of placing the "Shakespearian drama" into a context that itself speaks in ways Shakespeare couldn't, having been so focused on universalizing his presentation of the perpetuity of human nature in spit of context. Macross is not afraid to be "stuck in time" and doesn't attempt to escape into the realm of the abstract. Shakespeare is weak precisely because he is lasting - Macross is fleeting; which, like the best of things in life - heck, including life itself - makes it all the more sweet!

VFTF1

[d3v]

Sorry. Shakespeare doesn't cut it either. Aside from Caesar, and maybe Macbeth, most of Shakespeare pales in comparisson to Macross - Frontier included.

Shh, don't you know, according to the Zeroth Law, Shakepear did it first (or at least ripped it off from Doctor Who First).

Edited July 12, 2008 by d3v

[dreamweaver13]

ok, having watched the subs, i only realized now that the battle wasn't as one sided as comikaze depicted it to be, or as i thought. sitreps state that several NUNS battalions had been wiped out already shortly after the battle began. NUNs deliberated that the only way to get favorable odds was to use the ultimate trump card, the reaction weapons.

(yeah right, ultimate trump card. ahem. dimension eater. ahem.)

[Sergorn]

You know - I seen that kind of comment on various series, but I never get that whole "the enemy is invincible and should remain so" thing. That's the point : they're not.

And beside where did Vajra let the impression to be invincible ? Yeah in the first episode the Vajra gives the impression to be very strong, and kinda kicked the fleet's collective ass... but the Frontier fleet was unprepared, and the NUNS didn't know poo about them. Eck as a matter of the fact the SMS (which was aware of the Vajra and prepared to face them) has always managed to hold their ground against the Vajra. And since the first episode they also had time to study them, and probably equip the NUNs forces with the same kind of ammo the SMS have been using. So... non I don't think there is any inconsistence here - quite the contraty it makes perfect sense to me.

The Vajra were big, nasty and scary. In the last episode it looks like (I assume) the majority of them were destroyed. I thought maybe they were weaken when Ranka started to sing.

See even I'm looking for excuses.

Heh ? Did you actually watch the episode ? We actually do see some of the Vajra powering down their weapons as they were about the shoot the minute Ranka starts singing, which they could get their collective easily owned by Alto. No "excuses" to make, since this is exactly what happened.

-Sergorn

[Batou]

Sorry. Shakespeare doesn't cut it either. Aside from Caesar, and maybe Macbeth, most of Shakespeare pales in comparisson to Macross - Frontier included.

I personally don't understand why traditional "high" literature is always thrown around as being somehow "superior" to "pop culture" just by virtue of predating popculture.

All of the most powerful elements of Shakespearian drama are present in Macross - in fact, I remind everyone that initially the SDF-1 was supposed to be called the Macbeth.

However, Macross goes far beyond Shakespeare because of placing the "Shakespearian drama" into a context that itself speaks in ways Shakespeare couldn't, having been so focused on universalizing his presentation of the perpetuity of human nature in spit of context. Macross is not afraid to be "stuck in time" and doesn't attempt to escape into the realm of the abstract. Shakespeare is weak precisely because he is lasting - Macross is fleeting; which, like the best of things in life - heck, including life itself - makes it all the more sweet!

VFTF1

Just to play devil's advocate ...

I don't think anyone would argue the classics are "better" simply by pre-dating anything. Compare Britney Spears or Green Day to Mozart, Chopin, Stravinsky, Beethoven. "Pop culture" must cater to the lowest common denominator by definition, and as a result the lack of sophistication in comparison is startling. It's like a McDonald's cheeseburger: A pre-packaged product designed in a corporate boardroom, intended for mass consumption. Just because they're popular and they've sold billions of the god-awful things doesn't make them fine dining, nor does it make them good for you in any way. (Mark my words, you'll see "Ow! My Balls!" on Fox before the end of the next decade).

As much as I love Macross, I somehow doubt it's going to be held on such a pedestal and force-fed to high school seniors 400 years from now. It's just not fair to compare them.

Just so we're clear, I don't lump Macross in with "pop culture", anyway. Sure they have musical numbers and they merchandise this stuff in the hopes or selling collectibles and such, but it's hardly in the mainstream. Doesn't it air at like 3 AM in Japan, even? Other than for obsessive otaku (like us), this stuff is pretty far removed from the pulse, guys.

[danth]

Now, I've only watched the first five episodes, and I don't remember all the facts, but here's how I feel on the Vajra argument: It's pretty stupid to suggest that a military force protecting a cosmic seeding expedition would only equip themselves with regular munitions until they've gotten their asses kicked multiple times and lost thousands of civilians and a number of starships. If you don't know what you'll be up against, you arm yourselves with the most powerful munitions you have, blow the sh*t out of anything that attacks you, and ask questions later.

Switching to reaction weapons should have happened in the first episode after they discovered regular munitions didn't pack enough punch. Is that what happened? And the after that, taking out Vajra was no big deal, right? Actually, I seem to remember them being pretty hard to kill even in the fifth episode.

One thing I do remember was that in the first couple of episodes, the Vajra were f*cking scary. To have them be reduced to a sympathy case, in favor of some predictable conspiracy story, would be very unsatisfying in my opinion. I haven't watched that far yet, but you guys are already predicting the conspiracy, and I've found conspiracies in anime to be pretty obvious and ridiculous. Plus, Earth mecha v. Earth mecha is so Gundam. I want to see Earth mecha v. aliens!

Give me some effin' Supervision Army at least.

I do agree with ComicKaze regarding the poor 2D animation. I also don't like how many times Alto, Sheryl, and Ranka just happened to all meet in the same place by sheer luck, with nobody else around. I also hate the roller skates + angel wing armor suits. What is this, Alien f*cking Nine?

[bsu legato]

Can we expect one of these topics from you each and every week, for the remainder of the series? Gosh I hope so.

[Mr March]

Yeah, I think I'm gonna get a big face palm picture ready for these topics

Perhaps they should be called...

Bored: Or how I justify time spent watching what I hate by cataloging what bothers me

[Gubaba]

And, for the record, The Old Man and The Sea is my favorite book, and my first edition copy of it my most prized possession.

While I may disapprove of your taste in literature, the fact that you have a first edition is pretty damn cool.

[danth]

Yeah, I think I'm gonna get a big face palm picture ready for these topics

Perhaps they should be called...

Bored: Or how I justify time spent watching what I hate by cataloging what bothers me

Ha ha, yeah, let's all laugh at ComicKaze. I mean, what kind of loser watches a show from his favorite series, and then posts his retrospective opinion once the season is over?

Seriously guys, if you can't handle fair criticism of a Macross show, you can always avoid the thread instead of just being snide.

Or not. Just sayin'.

[Mr March]

Then how about live and let live. If some think these threads are anything but legitimate, let 'em speak their mind. That's why we're all here. Just sayin'.

[danth]

Then how about live and let live. If some think these threads are anything but legitimate, let 'em speak their mind. That's why we're all here. Just sayin'.

Sure. Hey, turnabout is fair play. I just don't see what the problem with this thread is. I can only find one other thread like this from ComicKaze, so it's not like it's a nuisance.

[manwiththemachinegun]

Going by Macross tradition, we haven't even seen a full, solitary, percent of what the Vajra can throw at the Frontier.

I seem to recall in the first series a SINGLE battleship called Macross making fools of an entire Zentradi armada... until 4.7 million ships showed up and glassed Earth.

Seriously, the true terror of the Vajra is yet to come.

We've seen a SINGLE Vajra fleet get iced. Whoop de do. This is in a series where an armada of 10,000 capital ships and its fighters is considered small.

First it was a group of lobsters,

Then one battleship,

Now a fleet with a mothership.

Anyone seeing a pattern here?

Edited July 13, 2008 by manwiththemachinegun

[Gubaba]

Going by Macross tradition, we haven't even seen a full, solitary, percent of what the Vajra can throw at the Frontier.

I seem to recall in the first series a SINGLE battleship called Macross making fools of an entire Zentradi armada... until 4.7 million ships showed up and glassed Earth.

Seriously, the true terror of the Vajra is yet to come.

We've seen a SINGLE Vajra fleet get iced. Whoop de do. This is in a series where an armada of 10,000 capital ships and its fighters is considered small.

First it was a group of lobsters,

Then one battleship,

Now a fleet with a mothership.

Anyone seeing a pattern here?

Good point, but I doubt it will be as simple as more fleets.

Still, Grace promised Leon that he would see the "true terror of the Vajra," and I don't think episode 14 qualifies...

[Mr March]

danth

Definitely. I enjoyed the thread where Zinpsycho was one step away from being committed to a mental institution.

manwiththemachinegun

I agree. How many Zentradi ships did the SDF-1 Macross flatten before Earth got owned. I'd say there's plenty more Vajra action coming up.

Edited July 13, 2008 by Mr March