dreamweaver13 Posted September 12, 2008 Author Share Posted September 12, 2008 (edited) updated. added enderverse similarity # 7 to the OP upon watching ep 23. Edited September 12, 2008 by dreamweaver13 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfx Posted September 12, 2008 Share Posted September 12, 2008 So is Alto going to be the Xenocide? Hmmmm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morpheus Posted September 12, 2008 Share Posted September 12, 2008 So is Alto going to be the Xenocide? Hmmmm. Yup, and he will became a Speaker by performing Kabuki in a hundred colony with tales of the Vajra Queen and the Galaxy Anonymous. So who will became the piggies? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dreamweaver13 Posted September 12, 2008 Author Share Posted September 12, 2008 Yup, and he will became a Speaker by performing Kabuki in a hundred colony with tales of the Vajra Queen and the Galaxy Anonymous. So who will became the piggies? haha. what a way to close the series out. Alto, kabuki speaker for the dead. later on, he finds the planet where gubaba (the macross 7 character, just to be clear!) came from and discovers that they kill each other for honor. gubaba is a pequenino! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Final Vegeta Posted September 12, 2008 Share Posted September 12, 2008 The only thing that bothers me about the Frontier story so far is how oblivious all the characters are. No one is doing any proactive investigation; no one is pressing for more information; hell, they aren't even conducting search and destroy missions at the very least. The NUNS and SMS are just largely waiting for everything to fall in their lap. But I suppose that's the limitations of the narrative, so I can't be too demanding Time proved you wrong The only oblivious character left is Alto FV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enders Posted September 13, 2008 Share Posted September 13, 2008 There is one major difference with Macross and Ender's Game Universe. Space travel in Macross does not suffer from the problem of relativistic effect due to FTL or near light speed. There is a heavy price to pay when you do interstellar travel, time on your ship passes much slower then your point of origin. I don't recall the specifics but Ender and his Sister are several centuries old by Earth's timeframe. Space travel by Fold in macross means you can go somewhere and be back for dinner with your folks. At least that's how I understand it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kronnang Dunn Posted September 14, 2008 Share Posted September 14, 2008 (edited) I haven't read the Ender books, but judging by what I know about that universe and the way the plot of Frontier has developed so far with the new revelations about the Vajra... Both bug species from Ender's and F have obviously some similarities... (which is a good thing actually...) Edited September 14, 2008 by Kronnang Dunn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gubaba Posted September 14, 2008 Share Posted September 14, 2008 I haven't read the Ender books, but judging by what I know about that universe and the way the plot of Frontier has developed so far with the new revelations about the Vajra... Both bug species from Ender's and F are obviously very superficially mildly similar... (which is a good thing actually...) FIXED! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfx Posted September 14, 2008 Share Posted September 14, 2008 There is one major difference with Macross and Ender's Game Universe. Space travel in Macross does not suffer from the problem of relativistic effect due to FTL or near light speed. There is a heavy price to pay when you do interstellar travel, time on your ship passes much slower then your point of origin. I don't recall the specifics but Ender and his Sister are several centuries old by Earth's timeframe. Space travel by Fold in macross means you can go somewhere and be back for dinner with your folks. At least that's how I understand it. It was argued in some threads that fold travel in Macross' universe has a time dilation effect although the evidence is not very clear nor very explicit. It was argued that due to fold faults, relative time will be longer ie: 3 months have passed on frontier whereas you only took 3 hours in foldspace to reach Gallia 4. I'm not sure what was the conclusion but its my opinion that there is no time dilation effect, BUT fold-faults affects time in transit. We take sailing in the open sea as the best analogy. Travelling from US to Spain by crossing the sea might take 3 months (i really dunno...just hypothetical). But due to storms and rough seas (fold faults) the travelling time is increased to 6 months instead of 3. Fold Quartz circumvents these obstacles and it just allows you to "teleport" from one place to another in real time, pretty much like the Ansible system in Ender which can be used to transport data and physical matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kronnang Dunn Posted September 14, 2008 Share Posted September 14, 2008 FIXED! I believe somebody in this thread mentioned that the bugs from Ender have a collective consciousness like the Vajra... That seems pretty similar to me... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gubaba Posted September 14, 2008 Share Posted September 14, 2008 I believe somebody in this thread mentioned that the bugs from Ender have a collective consciousness like the Vajra... That seems pretty similar to me... Yes, but that's about the only similarity, and even there, the type of intelligence is different. (And anyway, don't almost ALL sci-fi giant bugs have a hive mind? What's next, "Watch Them much, Shoji?" ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfx Posted September 14, 2008 Share Posted September 14, 2008 I believe somebody in this thread mentioned that the bugs from Ender have a collective consciousness like the Vajra... That seems pretty similar to me... Actually the Formics had only ONE conciousness....the queen. All individual bugs that she controls are but a tiny appendage to her, much like your fingers or even your hairs. Its not a collective hive-mind as some have suggested. I think this is the same for the Vajra that it only has 1 or few queens that are sentient whereas the rest aren't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VF-25 Messiah Posted September 14, 2008 Share Posted September 14, 2008 (edited) Actually the Formics had only ONE conciousness....the queen. All individual bugs that she controls are but a tiny appendage to her, much like your fingers or even your hairs. Its not a collective hive-mind as some have suggested. I think this is the same for the Vajra that it only has 1 or few queens that are sentient whereas the rest aren't. If so, is Ai-kun a queen then? He/she sure seemed kinda sentient to me. Edited September 14, 2008 by VF-25 Messiah Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dreamweaver13 Posted September 15, 2008 Author Share Posted September 15, 2008 Actually the Formics had only ONE conciousness....the queen. All individual bugs that she controls are but a tiny appendage to her, much like your fingers or even your hairs. Its not a collective hive-mind as some have suggested. I think this is the same for the Vajra that it only has 1 or few queens that are sentient whereas the rest aren't. ender had the concept of queens in each fleet. when Mazer Rackham killed the queen in one fleet, that entire fleet went dead, but the formics continued on as a species as long as there are other queens alive. i can't recall if enderverse had a MOTHER QUEEN concept (one queen to rule them all). it would seem the Vajra has a MOTHER QUEEN, one which grace is so desperate to find. "collective hive-mind" and "queen-mind with appendages" is actually difficult to distinguish. they're almost similar from a human's point of view. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dreamweaver13 Posted September 15, 2008 Author Share Posted September 15, 2008 There is one major difference with Macross and Ender's Game Universe. Space travel in Macross does not suffer from the problem of relativistic effect due to FTL or near light speed. There is a heavy price to pay when you do interstellar travel, time on your ship passes much slower then your point of origin. I don't recall the specifics but Ender and his Sister are several centuries old by Earth's timeframe. Space travel by Fold in macross means you can go somewhere and be back for dinner with your folks. At least that's how I understand it. just to clarify. this thread was not set out to argue or establish that macross frontier itself is similar, or is a rip-off of the enderverse. it's only intent is to point out similarities or homages. and when compared to the differences, the similarities are sooo few and far betweem. in no way is macross frontier, as a whole, similar to the enderverse. they're just light years away. so when we start pointing out differences, then there would be no end to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kronnang Dunn Posted September 15, 2008 Share Posted September 15, 2008 "collective hive-mind" and "queen-mind with appendages" is actually difficult to distinguish. they're almost similar from a human's point of view. Exactly my point. Also, the plot of Ender is very similar to that of Frontier so far. And the fact that the bugs from Ender didn't mind killing human beings since they thought they weren't sentient by themselves (only parts of a whole) is another similarity. I believe all this was already mentioned before on this very same thread... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfx Posted September 15, 2008 Share Posted September 15, 2008 If so, is Ai-kun a queen then? He/she sure seemed kinda sentient to me. Ai-kun is a glorified "wagging tail" for Ranka that expresses her very own emotions, he's probably part of her hair. Or maybe Ai-kun is a queen as well. ender had the concept of queens in each fleet. when Mazer Rackham killed the queen in one fleet, that entire fleet went dead, but the formics continued on as a species as long as there are other queens alive. i can't recall if enderverse had a MOTHER QUEEN concept (one queen to rule them all). it would seem the Vajra has a MOTHER QUEEN, one which grace is so desperate to find. "collective hive-mind" and "queen-mind with appendages" is actually difficult to distinguish. they're almost similar from a human's point of view. Did Enderverse have a few queens? I thought there can only be one at a time. The queen on the formic home planet specially made a queen egg when it knew its doom is near and sent it to Ender to hatch safely. PS: though now i kind of remember the new queen gave birth to a few queens for purposes of repopulating the species in Children of the Mind. As for Hive-mind vs Queen Mind....think of Hive-mind like a shared conciousness where multiple sentience form a single big entity. (some say that the Internet is the human Hive-mind) In fact Grace might be trying to achieve a human hive mind! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_mind_(science_fiction) Whereas in Ender, the hive mind is a bit more interesting as the queen herself is the only sentient being in the whole species using her armies as if they are part of her own body. The drones lack any sentient thought. In hindsight, its still early to tell if the Vajra are a gestalt existence or one with just the queen's sentience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kronnang Dunn Posted September 15, 2008 Share Posted September 15, 2008 Ai-kun is a glorified "wagging tail" for Ranka that expresses her very own emotions, he's probably part of her hair. Or maybe Ai-kun is a queen as well. Did Enderverse have a few queens? I thought there can only be one at a time. The queen on the formic home planet specially made a queen egg when it knew its doom is near and sent it to Ender to hatch safely. PS: though now i kind of remember the new queen gave birth to a few queens for purposes of repopulating the species in Children of the Mind. As for Hive-mind vs Queen Mind....think of Hive-mind like a shared conciousness where multiple sentience form a single big entity. (some say that the Internet is the human Hive-mind) In fact Grace might be trying to achieve a human hive mind! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_mind_(science_fiction) Whereas in Ender, the hive mind is a bit more interesting as the queen herself is the only sentient being in the whole species using her armies as if they are part of her own body. The drones lack any sentient thought. In hindsight, its still early to tell if the Vajra are a gestalt existence or one with just the queen's sentience. U know, perhaps the Vajra are all killed in the ending, except Ai-kun... Then Ranka and Brera take him to some uncharted planet so he can evolve into a queen and reborn the Vajra race... This time without any interference from humans... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dreamweaver13 Posted September 15, 2008 Author Share Posted September 15, 2008 (edited) Ai-kun is a glorified "wagging tail" for Ranka that expresses her very own emotions, he's probably part of her hair. Or maybe Ai-kun is a queen as well. Did Enderverse have a few queens? I thought there can only be one at a time. The queen on the formic home planet specially made a queen egg when it knew its doom is near and sent it to Ender to hatch safely. PS: though now i kind of remember the new queen gave birth to a few queens for purposes of repopulating the species in Children of the Mind. As for Hive-mind vs Queen Mind....think of Hive-mind like a shared conciousness where multiple sentience form a single big entity. (some say that the Internet is the human Hive-mind) In fact Grace might be trying to achieve a human hive mind! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_mind_(science_fiction) Whereas in Ender, the hive mind is a bit more interesting as the queen herself is the only sentient being in the whole species using her armies as if they are part of her own body. The drones lack any sentient thought. In hindsight, its still early to tell if the Vajra are a gestalt existence or one with just the queen's sentience. though i'm not sure if there is a MOTHER QUEEN, i'm pretty sure there are several queens (or sub-queens, if there is a mother queen), as early as in ender's game. the queen that mazer rakham killed was only that fleet's queen. killing the fleet's queen killed the fleet effectively, but other fleets (on other planets) remained alive and conscious. in fact, in the last planet, i remember that all the remaining queens were supposedly gathered on the bug home planet to prepare for ender's final assault. as for the supposed difference between hive mind and queen mind, all i'm saying is that the distinction is a human concept. a human concept has to place intelligence or consciousness in a single entity; it's the limit of human understanding. i, for one, can't begin to fathom what a real collective consciousness is like. so as a human, i would have to distinguish between a collective consciousness (one consciousness for all) and a queen consciousness (a queen with control over all). what i'm saying is that for the bugs, they may be entirely the same thing. the grace analogy is good, that's also what i was thinking. the grace collective wants to become the mother queen!! Edited September 15, 2008 by dreamweaver13 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharky Posted September 16, 2008 Share Posted September 16, 2008 I read the plot summary for Ender's Game from wikipedia. Man, it sounds like a great story! I will definitely read it. I used to read sci-fi books all the time, now I don't seem to have the time for such activities. My reading time is severally limited, but I will put this at the top of my list. Thanks for posting the thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dreamweaver13 Posted September 16, 2008 Author Share Posted September 16, 2008 I read the plot summary for Ender's Game from wikipedia. Man, it sounds like a great story! I will definitely read it. I used to read sci-fi books all the time, now I don't seem to have the time for such activities. My reading time is severally limited, but I will put this at the top of my list. Thanks for posting the thread. Alright!! it surely is a a great read. have fun. and also, it's a short book so you won't have trouble finishing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfx Posted September 16, 2008 Share Posted September 16, 2008 I read the plot summary for Ender's Game from wikipedia. Man, it sounds like a great story! I will definitely read it. I used to read sci-fi books all the time, now I don't seem to have the time for such activities. My reading time is severally limited, but I will put this at the top of my list. Thanks for posting the thread. Enjoy it, sharky. The later books though i think are an acquired taste. Though I like the intra species interaction set up by Card. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dreamweaver13 Posted September 16, 2008 Author Share Posted September 16, 2008 Enjoy it, sharky. The later books though i think are an acquired taste. Though I like the intra species interaction set up by Card. i agree. i know a lot of people who loved ender's game, but couldn't finish speaker. actually, if you think about it, the bean spinoff series has a closer feel to ENder's game than the rest of the actual ender sequels. nevertheless, i read em all, and liked most of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hiriyu Posted September 16, 2008 Share Posted September 16, 2008 I read the plot summary for Ender's Game from wikipedia. Man, it sounds like a great story! I will definitely read it. I used to read sci-fi books all the time, now I don't seem to have the time for such activities. My reading time is severally limited, but I will put this at the top of my list. Thanks for posting the thread. Do let us know what you think of it once you've read it. I only read the first two books, a very long time ago, upon the insistence of friends. Those people are no longer my friends (that's a joke, son). I am apparently the only person in the world, or at least on the internet, who didn't think much of them ... Though I think that my dislike of the books really stem more from the author's writing style than from the actual story content. While Card was originally praised as having a "Brash, Avant-Gard" writing style, I myself found it rather unsophisticated and annoying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dreamweaver13 Posted September 17, 2008 Author Share Posted September 17, 2008 (edited) Now that i finally watched ep 23 in subs, something in particular struck me. Leon and Bilrer were giving their spiel about the nature of Vajra, and Bilrer in particular described the Vajra as the "other", rendering them humans absolutely unable to communicate with them, and vice versa. wow. that's classic Speaker for the Dead terminology. The Hierarchy of Alienness. How alien is an alien? Utlannings are strangers of one's own species and one's own world (i.e. community or culture). An utlanning is a person who shares the observer's cultural identity. For example, if one were to meet a stranger who lived in another city, state, or province, this person would be considered utlanning. (Different races?-Macross Zero/Macross Plus) Framlings are members of one's own species but from another world or culture. This is a person who is both substantially similar to and significantly different from ourselves. (Zentraedi? - SDFM) Ramen are humans from another species who are capable of communication and peaceful coexistence with Homo sapiens sapiens, though that does not guarantee they will pursue the latter. While ramen can share ideas with each other, they may not have common ground, at least not initially. (Protodevlin? - Macross 7) AND the next and final level in the hierarchy of alienness... strangers from another species who are not able to communicate with us. They are true aliens, completely incapable of common ground with humanity. They live, but we cannot guess what purposes or causes makes them act. They might be intelligent, they might be self-aware, but we cannot know it. This is basically what Leon and Vajra said about the Vajra... and guess what this final level is called... Varlese. pronounced var-ELSS-uh. sure it's different, but it's also a bit similar. could be a nod. jees, i can't believe i didn't catch this before. took a pep talk from leon and bilrer, of all people, for me to make a connection. Edited September 17, 2008 by dreamweaver13 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VF-25 Messiah Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 Just looking at the words, they seem to be taken from germanic languages... Utlanning = Foreigner, Framling = Stranger, Varelse = Creature. Ramen though... noodles? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dreamweaver13 Posted September 17, 2008 Author Share Posted September 17, 2008 Just looking at the words, they seem to be taken from germanic languages... Utlanning = Foreigner, Framling = Stranger, Varelse = Creature. Ramen though... noodles? yup, you got the meanings right. it's swedish, i think. except for ramen. methinks ol' Card was slurping up a bowl when he thunk up his "hierarchy". Damn, there're only 3 swedish words i can use. *slurp* i NEED one more! *slurp* Think, man, think! *slurp* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morpheus Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 Just looking at the words, they seem to be taken from germanic languages... Utlanning = Foreigner, Framling = Stranger, Varelse = Creature. Ramen though... noodles? Thats Hierarchy of Alienness made by Valentine So basically Sheryl is a Framling and currently the Vajra are Varelse, unless they manage to communicate with Ranka, then they became Ramen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dreamweaver13 Posted September 17, 2008 Author Share Posted September 17, 2008 Thats Hierarchy of Alienness made by Valentine So basically Sheryl is a Framling and currently the Vajra are Varelse, unless they manage to communicate with Ranka, then they became Ramen. hey waitiaminute, how did sheryl become a framling? coz she's french? precisely, vajra are varelse right now. leon and the rest of frontier is acting on that premise. but as Speaker for the Dead discussed, the difference between Ramen and Varelse is very subjective. it would depend entirely on the human race. so once humans find a way to communicate with them (via ranka) they turn into Ramen. pretty much what happened in Ender's Game. the humans acted all along on the premise that the formics were Varelse, but ender learned too late that they were ramen. and ender was basically the "ranka" there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfx Posted September 18, 2008 Share Posted September 18, 2008 Long stretch here but Descolada virus = V-type virus? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Descolada#Descolada At least "form of communication" is there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dreamweaver13 Posted September 18, 2008 Author Share Posted September 18, 2008 (edited) Long stretch here but Descolada virus = V-type virus? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Descolada#Descolada At least "form of communication" is there. i was thinking that as well. hmmm.... i can't recall exactly, but the new breed of the formics (post endercide) was also infected with the descolada, right? the formics just adapted to it? or is my mind making this up already? EDIT: Strike that. got my ender concepts mixed up. having reading the summaries again, i'm struck at how much new ideas and concepts were crammed into the ender sequels. Edited September 18, 2008 by dreamweaver13 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfx Posted September 27, 2008 Share Posted September 27, 2008 Now after watching the subs, it was more or less an Enderverse explanation for the Vajra. Great job. Only difference now is that its confirmed that the vajra are a collective hive mind, not 1 intelligent queen that contols all vajra. The Vajra do not understand individualism and thus do not understand the need for communications as well as death can be bad for individuals. Imagine trying to have a conversation with the hairs on another person's head....the vajra probably thought this way when trying to "talk" to humans. But the vajra DO have feelings despite their alien mindset and wish not to harm the humans once they understood them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Final Vegeta Posted September 27, 2008 Share Posted September 27, 2008 Now after watching the subs, it was more or less an Enderverse explanation for the Vajra. Great job. Only difference now is that its confirmed that the vajra are a collective hive mind, not 1 intelligent queen that contols all vajra. I wrote a post that could be interesting to you. FV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dreamweaver13 Posted September 29, 2008 Author Share Posted September 29, 2008 Now after watching the subs, it was more or less an Enderverse explanation for the Vajra. Great job. Only difference now is that its confirmed that the vajra are a collective hive mind, not 1 intelligent queen that contols all vajra. The Vajra do not understand individualism and thus do not understand the need for communications as well as death can be bad for individuals. Imagine trying to have a conversation with the hairs on another person's head....the vajra probably thought this way when trying to "talk" to humans. But the vajra DO have feelings despite their alien mindset and wish not to harm the humans once they understood them. yup, the nature of the vajra surely seems similar to Ender's. and by the end, humans and the vajra understood each other somehow. only difference is, the humans didn't need to annhilate the Vajra to discover it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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