Read Ender much Shoji?

[dreamweaver13]

Macross Frontier similarities to Ender's Game novel and sequels (Enderverse)?

So far:

1. vajra = formics. that's the most obvious. If Mr. March's and others' theory turns out to be right, the vajra aren't really that much of the malevolent/mindless creatures of death they were painted to be at the start. in fact, they may very well have sufficient intelligence to communicate and co-exist with humans/zentraedi.

2. The species misunderstanding. following the above discussion, the conflict could have been brought about by a misundertanding between the species. the humans' contempt towards the vajra (specially come ep 14) can be likened to humans' relentless attacks on the formics' home planets before endeavoring to understand them (or the 117th covering it up)

3. battle school = mihoshi high. ok it's a stretch, but it's still a school where all the pilots happened to be in. (although admittedly, it's closer to Eva and the marduk concept, specially given that Sheryl introduction in ep . but basically... youth rules!

4. Dimension Eater = MD Device.

5. Fold faults and new fold technology.

Macross F: status quo - there are fold faults which signficantly slow or limit fold travel and communications. Vajra can seem to get around them easily, and are quite possibly capable of instantaneous fold communication. Shift in status quo - the purple crystals may have been discovered by studying the vajra, and the crystals eventually gave rise to the development of faster fold travel and fold communications.

Enderverse: status quo - basic laws of relativity limited space travel to light speed. However, the formics could communicate instantaneously from and to any point in the universe. Shift in status quo - humans discover the philotic network by studying the formics, thus arriving at instantaneous communication through the ansible technology. later on, humanity discovers instantaneous travel across the galaxy using the same philotic network discovered from the formics.

6. The death of the queen (vajra/formic) in battle causes the fleet to act without coordination, rendering them helpless and as good as defeated during the battle.

(new) 7. Grace's AI are in and around the fold network, which was created by the Vajra. much the same way that the bugs first used the philotic network which was adopted by the humans, and became the birthplace and habitat of the AI that gained consciousness, Jane.

Edited September 12, 2008 by dreamweaver13

[Gubaba]

I feel a little uneasy about this thread...it seems to essentially be saying that there's a theory that Frontier *MAY* turn out like Ender's Game, in which case...Frontier is like Ender's Game. Every similarity posited has "theory," "possible," or "stretch" attached to it...which sort of undermines the premise...

[dreamweaver13]

I feel a little uneasy about this thread...it seems to essentially be saying that there's a theory that Frontier *MAY* turn out like Ender's Game, in which case...Frontier is like Ender's Game. Every similarity posited has "theory," "possible," or "stretch" attached to it...which sort of undermines the premise...

nope, just pointing out similarities. when i said "theory" at the start, i meant the "theory" that mr. march posited (seconded by me and others) that the vajra are not as malevolent as we might have thought.

purpose of the thread is nothing more than that.... just a thought that ideas in macross F might have been influenced by concepts in the enderverse, if SK had read them. or maybe even just pure coincidence. i don't mind either way.

but i see your point. maybe a preamble and some editing will do the trick.

[aerocombatpilot]

Are you talking about the Zone of Enders game, or is there some other Enders game?

[sdf2501]

Ender's Game.

Not to be confused with Bender's Game

[wolfx]

Are you talking about the Zone of Enders game, or is there some other Enders game?

Ender's Game is a nebula award winning sci fi novel by Orson Scott Card. The success of the 1s book prompted an expansion of the Enderverse with 3 more books in the Ender series and various more books told from different perspectives and timelines.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ender%27s_game

Gubaba: If so wouldn't you feel more uneasy for the "Watch Aliens Much, Shoji?" thread?

I'm surprised there isn't a "Play Starcraft Much, Shoji?" thread yet.

[Gubaba]

Are you talking about the Zone of Enders game, or is there some other Enders game?

Dude.

As soon as you read this, either go to your nearest bookstore or log on to Amazon.com, and buy Ender's Game. You will thank us forever.

Just don't start reading it at night unless you have nothing planned for the next day...

[Gubaba]

nope, just pointing out similarities. when i said "theory" at the start, i meant the "theory" that mr. march posited (seconded by me and others) that the vajra are not as malevolent as we might have thought.

purpose of the thread is nothing more than that.... just a thought that ideas in macross F might have been influenced by concepts in the enderverse, if SK had read them. or maybe even just pure coincidence. i don't mind either way.

but i see your point. maybe a preamble and some editing will do the trick.

But that's kind of the problem...what if the Vajra ARE malevolent? Then there's no similarity.

I guess I just don't want to see Alto become the Dad for a large Brazilian family...

[Mr March]

That's why it's called a theory. I'm just working from the best available evidence, but if previous Macross shows and themes are any indication, the Vajra will never be that one-dimensional. This is after all, a super-dimensional anime

[Valkyrie addict]

hmmm...I say that in this times with the huge amount of books/movies/games available and every idea being done somehow, if you come up with something it is bound to have some similarities with something else done before even if you haven't seen it before

still, good catch dreamweaver13

[dreamweaver13]

if all the

vajra stood still after the vajra queen died

, i'm calling similarity number 6.

[dreamweaver13]

hmmm...I say that in this times with the huge amount of books/movies/games available and every idea being done somehow, if you come up with something it is bound to have some similarities with something else done before even if you haven't seen it before

still, good catch dreamweaver13

i agree with you 100%. with all the ideas already produced and published, this could all be complete chance. and besides, even ender's game concepts aren't all original.

influence, inspiration, pure coincidence, i don't mind either way. it's just fun to point out similarities.

[Kronnang Dunn]

Macross Frontier similarities to Ender's Game novel and sequels (Enderverse)?

So far:

1. vajra = formics. that's the most obvious. If Mr. March's and others' theory turns out to be right, the vajra aren't really that much of the malevolent/mindless creatures of death they were painted to be at the start. in fact, they may very well have sufficient intelligence to communicate and co-exist with humans/zentraedi.

2. The species misunderstanding. following the above discussion, the conflict could have been brought about by a misundertanding between the species. the humans' contempt towards the vajra (specially come ep 14) can be likened to humans' relentless attacks on the formics' home planets before endeavoring to understand them (or the 117th covering it up)

3. battle school = mihoshi high. ok it's a stretch, but it's still a school where all the pilots happened to be in. (although admittedly, it's closer to Eva and the marduk concept, specially given that Sheryl introduction in ep . but basically... youth rules!

4. Dimension Eater = MD Device.

5. Fold faults and new fold technology.

Macross F: status quo - there are fold faults which signficantly slow or limit fold travel and communications. Vajra can seem to get around them easily, and are quite possibly capable of instantaneous fold communication. Shift in status quo - the purple crystals may have been discovered by studying the vajra, and the crystals eventually gave rise to the development of faster fold travel and fold communications.

Enderverse: status quo - basic laws of relativity limited space travel to light speed. However, the formics could communicate instantaneously from and to any point in the universe. Shift in status quo - humans discover the philotic network by studying the formics, thus arriving at instantaneous communication through the ansible technology. later on, humanity discovers instantaneous travel across the galaxy using the same philotic network discovered from the formics.

Does this mean that

after the Vajra are erradicated, Alto will take a mutating Ranka to the remains of Galia IV so she can become the new Queen and reproduce the Vajra race???

Edited July 11, 2008 by Kronnang Dunn

[Hiriyu]

I really hope that MacF doesn't go anywhere near the direction of the OP's supposition.

Slightly OT, but am I the only person in all of sci-fi fandom who thinks that Ender's Game just sucked?

[eugimon]

yes.

[dreamweaver13]

Dude.

As soon as you read this, either go to your nearest bookstore or log on to Amazon.com, and buy Ender's Game. You will thank us forever.

Just don't start reading it at night unless you have nothing planned for the next day...

... and if you do intend to read it, DON'T read the wiki plot summary!!

oh my. warning too late by this time?

[dreamweaver13]

I really hope that MacF doesn't go anywhere near the direction of the OP's supposition.

Slightly OT, but am I the only person in all of sci-fi fandom who thinks that Ender's Game just sucked?

yes. hahaha.

unless you watched the movie starring amanda bynes as Petra, jake lloyd as Ender and shia labeouf as Bonzo Madrid. yeah, that one sucked big time.

[Hiriyu]

yes. hahaha.

unless you watched the movie starring amanda bynes as Petra, jake lloyd as Ender and shia labeouf as Bonzo Madrid. yeah, that one sucked big time.

Thankfully, I was blissfully unaware of any movie being made. Of course I wouldn't have watched it anyway

[wolfx]

Slightly OT, but am I the only person in all of sci-fi fandom who thinks that Ender's Game just sucked?

Yes.

yes. hahaha.

unless you watched the movie starring amanda bynes as Petra, jake lloyd as Ender and shia labeouf as Bonzo Madrid. yeah, that one sucked big time.

What??? You're kidding right? I knew there was a movie planned but its in indefinate hiatus and we're only getting a graphic novel in August/September.

[dreamweaver13]

What??? You're kidding right? I knew there was a movie planned but its in indefinate hiatus and we're only getting a graphic novel in August/September.

yes, i am of course.

when the news of the enders game movie came out, i checked some fan forums of course. and the first post that greeted me was a serious plea to "cast amanda bynes as petra. that would be perfect!!". i'm telling you, my heart almost stopped... and as if i seem to like being tortured so much, i read on and saw "Jake Lloyd for ender would definitely work!". I kept reading coz maybe they were just kidding. apparently, they weren't...

i'm sure there were other absurd pleas for casting, but i seem to have forgotten most of them. thank god for memory repression.

[dreamweaver13]

Does this mean that

after the Vajra are erradicated, Alto will take a mutating Ranka to the remains of Galia IV so she can become the new Queen and reproduce the Vajra race???

oh come on, why would alto want to be the new vajra Queen when he... oh you meant Ranka! i hear princess or queen, and it just comes up alto for some reason.

[Radd]

Heh, I brought up Ender's Game in the "Watch Aliens Much?" thread after last week's episode, as in I felt it was reminding me more of that than Aliens. Still is. That's not to say it seems too close to Ender's game. I'm digging the similarities. It's still definitely Macross and not an anime rehash of Ender's Game. And it does seem like there's already more to it than a tragic misunderstanding between the Vajra and NUNS fleets. I mean, it's right out there that there's a conspiracy going on, and we're only like halfway through the series so there's quite a bit more to come, too.

[Gubaba]

I really hope that MacF doesn't go anywhere near the direction of the OP's supposition.

Slightly OT, but am I the only person in all of sci-fi fandom who thinks that Ender's Game just sucked?

Probably, although I did meet someone who thought that the short story was superior to the novel.

But if you also thought "Speaker for the Dead" sucked, then there is no hope for you.

[Spitze]

Wait for Frontier to pull an Eureka Seven. I'm calling it. Ranka is an analogue to Eureka.

[Mr March]

yes.

Hear, hear!

[manwiththemachinegun]

So far as the Vajra are considered (i.e. some considering them 'victims') I'll quote Ender's Game:

"Don't apoligize for them Ender."

The Vajra may have been provoked, but it wasn't the Frontier and her fleet. They have every right to defend their ten MILLION civilians on board with every weapon in their arsenal.

With there be peace by the end? Sure, but that doesn't mean fighting the Bugs is wrong.

[Mr March]

I don't think morality has yet been addressed and aren't the NUNS also victims? Besides speaking of morality in war is absurd. I'll provide my own quote:

"They train young men to drop fire on people. But their commanders won't allow them to write fcuk on their airplanes because it's obscene!"

Edited July 12, 2008 by Mr March

[manwiththemachinegun]

I don't think morality has yet been addressed and aren't the NUNS also victims? Besides speaking of morality in war is absurd.

Yes, NUNS is a victim and has a right to defend itself, even if the bugs were provoked.

Not sure why you're quoting something from RL, as my quote was simply from Ender's mentor who told him to stop feeling sorry for the enemy simply because they weren't the monsters humans thought they were. The Buggers slaughtered humans because they didn't realize they were sentient, but that doesn't excuse their massacres.

Morality in war isn't absurd at all. If it were, why don't first world nations let soldiers rape, cannibalize and slaughter captives at will? And punishments if those rules are violated?

Fighting is a part of human nature, but there can be honor and humanity in it. Since we're using real examples I'll point out the Desert Campaign between the British and Rommel in WWII, noted for being remarkably humane.

Edited July 12, 2008 by manwiththemachinegun

[Mr March]

So why bring it up? You post to a quote/counter as though a moral point were made when there was none. And it's not from "RL", it's from a film.

[manwiththemachinegun]

So why bring it up? You post to a quote/counter as though a moral point were made when there was none. And it's not from "RL", it's from a film.

Because "a" theme of Ender's Game is that the Bugger's were 'victims' just as the Vajra are being set up by a third party. And this is a comparison thread.

I promise I'm not trying to start ****.

I'm just saying even though there are some extenuating circumstances, it doesn't absolve the Vajra of shooting up the Frontier fleet and killing everyone.

It's a popular theme in future Ender's Game stories that humans actions during the war were considered monstrous by future generations, when in fact the human race barely avoided annihilation even though the Buggers war was unintentional. As Ender's mentor says, just because the Buggers didn't know what they were doing was wrong doesn't absolve them. In other words, ignorance for the law is no excuse.

Edited July 12, 2008 by manwiththemachinegun

[Mr March]

That's fair enough. And if my theory is ultimately correct, the same you've said of the Vajra would be true for the NUNS/SMS. Unless of course we consider the Macross Galaxy fleet and the actions of Grace and her cohorts as a human condoned institution, which would ultimately place blame squarely on the humans/zentradi of the New United Nations. So the parallels with Ender's Game aren't exact, but it's interesting to consider the possibilities. The only thing that bothers me about the Frontier story so far is how oblivious all the characters are. No one is doing any proactive investigation; no one is pressing for more information; hell, they aren't even conducting search and destroy missions at the very least. The NUNS and SMS are just largely waiting for everything to fall in their lap. But I suppose that's the limitations of the narrative, so I can't be too demanding

Edited July 12, 2008 by Mr March

[Kronnang Dunn]

In other words, ignorance for the law is no excuse.

And a law itself is no excuse for killing other beings... I'm afraid erradicating the Vajra may very well become the law in Frontier now...

Unless of course we consider the Macross Galaxy fleet and the actions of Grace and her cohorts as a human condoned institution, which would ultimately place blame squarely on the humans/zentradi of the New United Nations.

AFAIK there aren't any Zentradi in Galaxy... what would put blame in the humans of Galaxy... who may be no humans anymore, but more heartless and mercilessly logical A.I./Cyborgs now... (take Grace's actions as an example).

Now, just like Luke Skywalker said once, hehe... "There are times when the end justifies the means. But when you build an argument based on a whole series of such times, you may find that you've constructed an entire philosophy of evil." Grace faction is pure self-righteous mechanical evil...

More and more I find similarities between Frontier and the Dune novels too...

Edited July 12, 2008 by Kronnang Dunn

[dreamweaver13]

discussing the morality of war is difficult enough. discussing morality within the context of an extra-terrestrial intelligent species is an entire universe on its own. haha. it's too big for me. basically you'd have to delive into the philosophical and practical definition of morality, and apply it to a species entirely different from out own. what may be immoral for us, may be perfectly normal for them. what may be murder to humans, was something inconsequential for the formics, and absolutely noble and necessary for the piggies.

[dreamweaver13]

ok, after watching ep14 subs, when alto killed the vajra queen, cathy glass and the quarter crew observed that the vajra fleet was in "chaos". it was at this point that the humans started to have complete victory during the battle.

allow me to add similarity number 6: the death of the queen in battle causes the fleet to act without coordination, rendering them helpless and as good as defeated during the battle.

[Mr March]

AFAIK there aren't any Zentradi in Galaxy... what would put blame in the humans of Galaxy... who may be no humans anymore, but more heartless and mercilessly logical A.I./Cyborgs now... (take Grace's actions as an example).

Now, just like Luke Skywalker said once, hehe... "There are times when the end justifies the means. But when you build an argument based on a whole series of such times, you may find that you've constructed an entire philosophy of evil." Grace faction is pure self-righteous mechanical evil...

The point being made was they are all under the New United Nations flag. It's also obvious the Vajra aren't making a distinction

Btw, I don't know who wrote that quote, but it's awful. I would lose that