Theory: Fold Faults and SD space time dilation

[Master Dex]

LOL Oh, I always have fun at that shows expense. But it's all in good jest

I'm happy with what Macross has done with it's FTL method. It may not be entirely original, but its creative and innovative. I love tech talk as much as the next tech geek, but I prefer the use of units and the end result. I don't have to know how fold travel works or why, but it would be great if I knew how much power it takes, how fast it can go and I'd like it all in real SI units. That's part of the fun of the real robot genre, using real measurements and units to show the degree of technological advancement. Meters, mach speeds, thruster output, weight and all that makes them more real to me. It helps create a more immersive, fictional world to which we can relate and I love that kind of fiction in Macross.

And you all will too, in the next update

That'll do pig, that'll do.... just having fun.

Actually I am in complete agreement with you on that paragraph, I love the details like that, but sometimes the how is important to me too. Also I don't see Fold travel and unoriginal, actually I like it a lot and at times (at least as how I see it working) makes more sense than warp drive to me. I don't actually give the benefit of the doubt to many FTL ideas from shows or movies. All the various forms of hyperspace such as that in Star Wars and others are ok for that work of fiction but I don't generally give it much afterthought because I don't care for it. However I really like fold travel in Macross, and in one of my story ideas I use a modified form of space folding for the main FTL (it isn't as much the same as it is different really). I still don't know if I'm going to write this story into a book, but I'd like to, I just don't think I will because I don't finish these types of things, lol.

If you keep plugging your next site update like a sly business man I will..... well just have to check it out..... oh who am I kidding I was going to do that anyway.

[dreamweaver13]

i'm just concerned about the definition of "instantaneous". FTL jump in BSG is instantaneous. (here one second, there the next). But if we follow SDFM, some amount of time always passes for the passengers during fold. also with the first (deculture) episode of MacF.

[Master Dex]

i'm just concerned about the definition of "instantaneous". FTL jump in BSG is instantaneous. (here one second, there the next). But if we follow SDFM, some amount of time always passes for the passengers during fold. also with the first (deculture) episode of MacF.

Agreed, instantaneous isn't the right word IMO.

[dreamweaver13]

Agreed, instantaneous isn't the right word IMO.

Mr. March, just a suggestion (don't kill me, don't kill me!): you can edit out "While fold travel is nearly instantaneous for the crew of a folding space craft", and start the sentence with "Time passes much slower...". with this, the entry is relatively controversy free, imo.

[Mr March]

Ordinarily, I'd jump at the suggestion. But the language is taken directly from the Macross Compendium, so I'm loathe to mess with it. And the new LAI fold technology basically supports the phrase "nearly instantaneous". Best I can do is ask that we wait for the Macross Chronicle entry.

[RedWolf]

I'm starting to wonder if Vajra's organic composition is similar to Val Elna (Space Whale).

It is said that Space Whale products makes fold drives better. That is why pirates hunt them and sell them.

Space Whales are the only other known creature able to achive space fold naturally other than the Vajra.

Looking back at Zero and 7 I'm starting to think that the Protoculture had another FTL methodology besides folding.

When Sara and Shin left we assumed they folded but as the Protodevlin shown with their Eh-vil (Evil) unit bodies they can cross the galaxy without folding.

[Master Dex]

I'm starting to wonder if Vajra's organic composition is similar to Val Elna (Space Whale).

It is said that Space Whale products makes fold drives better. That is why pirates hunt them and sell them.

Space Whales are the only other known creature able to achive space fold naturally other than the Vajra.

Looking back at Zero and 7 I'm starting to think that the Protoculture had another FTL methodology besides folding.

When Sara and Shin left we assumed they folded but as the Protodevlin shown with their Eh-vil (Evil) unit bodies they can cross the galaxy without folding.

Well unless they explain the other method I'm sticking to folding. The Vajra are definitely folding because it looks exactly the same as the folding of everyone else.

[rapierdragon]

I think the whole time-delay thing as seen in some Macross Frontier is because many people forget what hyperspace or super dimension space or whatever alt.names for it really is like because they get used to the "idiot's" version that lower grade fiction tends to use. (Macross Frontier obviously using a higher grade of reality for its sci-fi FTL element).

Most people see this "extra dimension" or "fold space" as being rather flat, or perhaps semi-flat-semi-curved like normal space-time. For short-distances (Earth to Jupiter, Earth to nearby star-system) this may be fairly true. Over longer distances though all the small bumps and creases may add up.

Most people use the traditional idea... take a paper, mark "A" and "B" on opposite ends, and simply fold it over in such a way that A and B touch (so the ship, or for this example, a sewing pin, goes through really easily. After unfolding you see only two pin-holes, one at A, one at B). In this fold there is little to no time-dialation involved.

Take a piece of tissue (or paper towel, paper, or whatever), mark "A" and "B" and crumple it up randomly. Now try to find a direct A-B path. You might be able to, or you might find it pierces several additional layers. (unfold your paper and look. How many pin-holes did you get? 3? 5? 7+? 12+?). Now go try it with say a thin paper from one of those large 28"x48" or larger posters if you want.

So Every time the pin makes an extra crossing through the paper it is kind of like the ship left fold space, waited for its engines to recharge, then made its next fold. (I.E. in episode 7/8 where we first see Macross Quarter transform, they mention "having to make 12 quick consequtive fold jumps". ) Perhaps this is due to the ship's energy limits, or fold faults, or the fold drive itself can only jump x-distance so it requires being "refueled" or "recharged" (like the way we currently have to stop at gas-stations to refuel a car now in 2008 when traveling from say, Florida USA to Los Angeles USA (East Coast to West Coast of USA for those who don't know the city locations)).

Even the TARDIS in Doctor Who doesn't really have an "instantly there" factor (though it does sometimes for sake of moving the plot along). I mean it takes some 5-minutes for it to go from Earth to Gallyfrey (which is on the far side of the galaxy).

And then there's notarious jokes like in Red Dwarf where they reference teh Starbug craft as having a gear-box with "127 or so" gear positions. I mean really, any throttle capable of doing 0% to 1% lightspeed by shifting a mere 4 inches would mean that moving the damn control as little as a milimeter (1/64 inch or so) would mean the difference between stationary (0.000 km/s) and over 10 km/s. Even touching the damn control would result in turning the crew into strawberry jam.

Matt Shokoff

matsho@sympatico.ca

[Star Dragon]

Sorry to jump in but people have barely touched on SDFM. Due to the long distance fold it took about 10 days equating to 3weeks to 3months in real time (I honestly don't remember the amount).

During the fold the Zents would have to feed the prisoners eh? Not to mention bodily functions continuing. That little area of their's must have really reeked after 10 days of pissing in the corner huh?

Thus the use of stasis devices. The computer calculates the time/distance of the fold and puts the crew out that long so you don't have to worry about food/sanitation needs BECAUSE TIME PASSES even in a fold. The majority of folks folding usually don't make longer ones than a day (without stasis) I would imagine to avoid just those issues...

Sort of how our RL airlines are gimping back on stuff/services for passengers to save money...

Now if someone were to say that SDFM was officially retconned then I have no issue on the matter. All other aspects talked about fit fine regardless... IF I'm wrong my apologies, but it seems pretty obvious to me.

[rapierdragon]

Well I was assuming that the usual advances in the tech had occured since SDF-Macross / DYRM / etc time. Don't forget, Macross F is due to have been launched from earth something like 25 years after SDFM, and at the point the series starts it says its like 2054 or some such (opening intro from one of the first three or four ep's I think... shows the 25'th fleet "launched" like 2025 and then it's spent around another 25~30 years to reach its current point in the galaxy)

They also explain that due to "power requirements" that long-range folds still aren't really possible. Seems the fleet's operational plan is: they fold, spend a few months restock resources and scanning planets and whatnot, and then then do the stocking/scanning thing again.

I'm guessing they discout the original massive Zent fleet fold activity from the original series as "one giant waste of power that left most Zent ships running on empty" (much like the first arc of Robotech). Cause frankly if they had that kind of power/fuel/whatever leftover then humanity would have already colonized every habitable planet in the Zent galactic database.

Then there's the whole issue of the "Fold Quartz" idea that appears around 12 (experimental fold drive) and further explained a little (episode 16 I think). Guess it kind of acts like a power amplifier like Dilithium in Star Trek (a crystal originally used to amplify and control the matter/anti-matter reaction).

[dreamweaver13]

This doesn't really change any of the previous discussions on this topic, but just want to point this out after watching ep 12 again (fastest delivery). the display in Luca's laptop shows a diagram of the fold path from Frontier to Gallia IV. Fold faults are symbolized by purple blocks on the monitor, and when the path crossed those purple blocks, "1 day" was written on the monitor, corresponding to that purple block. Translated as, when the fold path crossed that particular fold fault, one day was added to the fold travel (i presume we're talking about the time "outside" of the fold).

[Kronnang Dunn]

I'm starting to wonder if Vajra's organic composition is similar to Val Elna (Space Whale).

It is said that Space Whale products makes fold drives better. That is why pirates hunt them and sell them.

Space Whales are the only other known creature able to achive space fold naturally other than the Vajra.

Looking back at Zero and 7 I'm starting to think that the Protoculture had another FTL methodology besides folding.

When Sara and Shin left we assumed they folded but as the Protodevlin shown with their Eh-vil (Evil) unit bodies they can cross the galaxy without folding.

Actually, I remember that some time ago someone mentioned that anime magazines had some Macross F info describing the Vajra as being the mix of several alien species. Perhaps there's some space whale in them...