Macross Frontier Episode 13 Talkback Thread *READ 1st Post*

[eugimon]

I'm an old school fan and i love Frontier. I think it beautifully updates and reboots the franchise without scraping it or reimagining the Macross Universe in the way that Seed tried with Gundam. And I think the lead characters are just fine. I find anyone of them compelling and I find myself enjoying the character driven "filler" episodes just as much as the mecha-porn episodes.

[Beltane70]

I'm another member of the old-school fans that is totally in love with Macross Frontier as well as most of the franchise. Pretty much the only Macross work that I'm not fond of is Macross II.

[d3v]

As for Alto being pretty, that always seemed to me as being the creators way of making fun of the current crop of bishounen mecha pilots. I mean, finally we get a series that acknowledges that "hey, our lead hero puts most of the female characters to shame" and then runs with it.

[Gubaba]

haha. now that you mention it, you're right. seems like ages ago when people were whining about overcooked homages.

but i sense a pattern now. put in heavy homages at the start to get the old fans interested and feeling "yeah, this is our anime!", then put the series into another direction to make it more contemporary and to get new fans, but still dropping little, subtle (yet not distracting to the plot) homages to keep the old fans interested without alienating the new fans too much. if the purpose of this pattern is to get both the old and new fans, i hope it's working!

Well, it's certainly been working on ME! I no longer play "spot-the-reference" as I did with the earlier episodes (my favorite remains Sheryl's "Atashi to ishouja, iya?" from "Star Date") and I noticed myself rather elegantly getting drawn into the plot and characters of Frontier in and of themselves, rather than for who they represented. It no longer matters to me that the President's daughter looks like Misa or that the dude with the glasses flies a blue Valk, they matter to me now because, well...they're Kathy and Michael.

[dreamweaver13]

Well, it's certainly been working on ME! I no longer play "spot-the-reference" as I did with the earlier episodes (my favorite remains Sheryl's "Atashi to ishouja, iya?" from "Star Date") and I noticed myself rather elegantly getting drawn into the plot and characters of Frontier in and of themselves, rather than for who they represented. It no longer matters to me that the President's daughter looks like Misa or that the dude with the glasses flies a blue Valk, they matter to me now because, well...they're Kathy and Michael.

Bwahahaha. The devilish plan worked! The Hory Froating Head now owns your soul!

Same with me. it was a gradual and seemless transition, and i didn't even notice it until you brought it up. damn that kawamori, what a brilliant ploy.

i wonder at what point it started to grow into its own...

[Gubaba]

Bwahahaha. The devilish plan worked! The Hory Froating Head now owns your soul!

Same with me. it was a gradual and seemless transition, and i didn't even notice it until you brought it up. damn that kawamori, what a brilliant ploy.

i wonder at what point it started to grow into its own...

I think episode 5 was the last of the "All-Out Homage" episodes...your tally may vary.

[MilSpex]

Those fans who simply want a rehash of the original series will never be happy no matter what Kawamori and crew does, they're the classic unpleasable fans who simply can't sit back and enjoy the ride; better to appeal to those of us with open minds while creating another generation of fans to carry the torch.

I don`t think we want a rehash of the original series, we want a continuation of it. Ideally we want a series about the Megaroad where our original heroes confront the Supervision Army at the centre of the Galaxy and learn the secrets of the universe ala 2010. "Its full of stars" type sh*t with some massive fleet battles, valkyrie action, and a love triangle between the offspring of the original characters. I think that series is the logical and ultimately necessary one to round out the franchise. Without it Macross will never be complete to me.

Edited July 9, 2008 by MilSpex

[Master Dex]

How did the episode 13 discussion turn into all this?

I don't really have anything relevant to add to all this unfortunately.

[dreamweaver13]

How did the episode 13 discussion turn into all this?

I don't really have anything relevant to add to all this unfortunately.

it all started because someone mentioned the word "retcon"....

oops. oh no....

[Gubaba]

I don`t think we want a rehash of the original series, we want a continuation of it. Ideally we want a series about the Megaroad where our original heroes confront the Supervision Army at the centre of the Galaxy and learn the secrets of the universe ala 2010. "Its full of stars" type sh*t with some massive fleet battles, valkyrie action, and a love triangle between the offspring of the original characters. I think that series is the logical and ultimately necessary one to round out the franchise. Without it Macross will never be complete to me.

It DOES kind of feel a little like all the post-Space War I Macross stories are like satellites orbitting around a big empty space, but I've kind of grown to like it like that. And given that Kawamori has said he won't do it, Mari Iijima lives here in L.A., and Arihiro Hase is dead, it seems unlikely, to say the least.

And here's a thought I'll just throw out there: maybe nothing important or dramatic happened to them. Or maybe it was as stupid as them flying into a black hole...*envisions Macross version of "Godzilla vs. Bambi."*

[aerocombatpilot]

I don`t think we want a rehash of the original series, we want a continuation of it. Ideally we want a series about the Megaroad where our original heroes confront the Supervision Army at the centre of the Galaxy and learn the secrets of the universe ala 2010. "Its full of stars" type sh*t with some massive fleet battles, valkyrie action, and a love triangle between the offspring of the original characters. I think that series is the logical and ultimately necessary one to round out the franchise. Without it Macross will never be complete to me.

AMEN!

[dreamweaver13]

It DOES kind of feel a little like all the post-Space War I Macross stories are like satellites orbitting around a big empty space, but I've kind of grown to like it like that. And given that Kawamori has said he won't do it, Mari Iijima lives here in L.A., and Arihiro Hase is dead, it seems unlikely, to say the least.

And here's a thought I'll just throw out there: maybe nothing important or dramatic happened to them. Or maybe it was as stupid as them flying into a black hole...*envisions Macross version of "Godzilla vs. Bambi."*

i'm suddenly reminded of Cain and Abel from the House of Mystery/Secrets (Sandman comics). Cain always insisted that a good mystery lives forever... but it dies once revealed (or something like that). he even killed his brother for revealing one of his mysteries one time (big deal, he always kills his brother ).

anyway, my point is, the mystery behind what happened to megaroad 1 has lingered on precisely because it is still unrevealed to this day. sure i would love a resolution or an answer, and i would be the first to watch it. but I personally wouldn't mind it too much if it remained a mystery forever. in that way, it will live forever.

after all, i actually have this lingering fear of the day that SK will suddenly decide to finally tell the story, and that the story would be awful. it could be a big whopping letdown after 25 years of now knowing. if that would be the case, maybe i'd rather not know.

[Gubaba]

i'm suddenly reminded of Cain and Abel from the House of Mystery/Secrets (Sandman comics). Cain always insisted that a good mystery lives forever... but it dies once revealed (or something like that). he even killed his brother for revealing one of his mysteries one time (big deal, he always kills his brother ).

anyway, my point is, the mystery behind what happened to megaroad 1 has lingered on precisely because it is still unrevealed to this day. sure i would love a resolution or an answer, and i would be the first to watch it. but I personally wouldn't mind it too much if it remained a mystery forever. in that way, it will live forever.

after all, i actually have this lingering fear of the day that SK will suddenly decide to finally tell the story, and that the story would be awful. it could be a big whopping letdown after 25 years of now knowing. if that would be the case, maybe i'd rather not know.

I think Cain was right. He was a total bastard, but he was right.

I have to say I have no interest in Macross story with someone else voicing Hikaru (unless they get Tony Oliver to do the lines in Japanese ). And I think a Megaroad-01 story would carry even more baggage than Macross Zero did...not that SK couldn't pull it off, but think about how touchy many here have been about Frontier, and multiply that by twelve...

[Zinjo]

I think Cain was right. He was a total bastard, but he was right.

I have to say I have no interest in Macross story with someone else voicing Hikaru (unless they get Tony Oliver to do the lines in Japanese ). And I think a Megaroad-01 story would carry even more baggage than Macross Zero did...not that SK couldn't pull it off, but think about how touchy many here have been about Frontier, and multiply that by twelve...

The man's got a point....

Besides, this universe is so vast that there are dozens of stories that could be told in each era alone...

[Kronnang Dunn]

I don`t think we want a rehash of the original series, we want a continuation of it. Ideally we want a series about the Megaroad where our original heroes confront the Supervision Army at the centre of the Galaxy and learn the secrets of the universe ala 2010. "Its full of stars" type sh*t with some massive fleet battles, valkyrie action, and a love triangle between the offspring of the original characters. I think that series is the logical and ultimately necessary one to round out the franchise. Without it Macross will never be complete to me.

Actually... It should be the Protoculture instead... The Supervision Army were a bunch of brainwashed zombies... I don't believe anything could be learned from them at all...

Or maybe the crew of the Megaroad defend the Protoculture left at the center of the galaxy from a Supervision Army fleet and they get all transported to another galaxy, hehehe... even better!!!

Edited July 9, 2008 by Kronnang Dunn

[Zinjo]

You guys seem to be ignoring the fact that DYRL and TV designs are refered to interchangablily. In Macross 7 we see Milia flying in a TV style jumpsuit, while Basara was acting out Hikaru's role in a DYRL style suit. In Frontier we see a TV style Nosjadeul-Ger floating in an ancient battlefield, and in episode 12 the TV-style uniformed Zentradi were squaring off against dudes wearing the DYRL-style outfits.

The simple fact of that matter is that 'movie in a movie' doesn't describe our DYRL, Kawamori simply stated that there was a movie called DYRL in the canon. He has even specifically started that the in-universe movie is different from the real world movie.

Anyhow, SW1 is muddy water, and designs from both are used.

I tend to agree. With SDFM in a legal limbo, it may have become somewhat expendable as far as the definitive story about SW1 is concerned. The notion was first floated out there by the mention of a SW1 TV drama in the CD sleeve notes of the first OST. The 1984 movie is not the same one that inspired Basara to become a singer as SK has stated. I consider it to be how SK describes it, a historical war movie about SW1, with all the liberties filmakers take with such subjects. When the film takes place in the chronology or if the 1984 film is even a part of the chronology is a bit dodgy.

As for 'leaving the fans behind', too bad. If Macross is going to only appeal to fans of the original and ignore the massive fanbase created by Plus, and Zero, and especially Macross 7 (the most popular installment in the series), how is it to remain a viable franchise? Every long running Franchise has had to walk this line, just look at Gundam. This is how franchises work, each new installment builds upon the others while creating a unique identity of it's won. Personally I think Frontier has been an excellent series in it's own right, with just enough Macross and Macross 7 moments to make it really feel like it belongs in the franchise. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only person who cheered when Michel and Ranka flew in with the speaker pods, or when the Queadllun Rau's made their first appearance.

I'd beg to differ. Mac7 was popular to be sure, but really doesn't hold a candle to SDFM. There is more merchandise produced for SDFM on a yearly basis than has ever been produced for Mac 7. As a follow up TV series to SDFM it did very well, but the original has always out sold Mac 7 in merchandise and the reality is, that is what sponsors look at. If anything would be more popular than SDFM it would have to be DYRL since the film still holds up today and thus far there have been how many releases of this film on how many different media?

Those fans who simply want a rehash of the original series will never be happy no matter what Kawamori and crew does, they're the classic unpleasable fans who simply can't sit back and enjoy the ride; better to appeal to those of us with open minds while creating another generation of fans to carry the torch.

Wow how dismissive is that?

I get the definite impression that Frontier has the spirit of SDFM with the contemporary feel that Mac 7 had. Great compelling SciFi drama coupled with the silliness that comes with teenage life. Be honest a grim drama week after week becomes depressing without a little levity...

It would be unfortunate if some old school fans dropped their fandom over Macross Frontier, but just as with everything sometimes people or things outgrow each other. My biggest fear was that Frontier would become another Mac 7, catering to the target demographic as opposed to presenting an engaging story. I am grateful my fears were unwarranted.

[Zinjo]

Actually... It should be the Protoculture instead... The Supervision Army were a bunch of brainwashed zombies... I don't believe anything could be learned from them at all...

I'd like to see a story about the remnants of the SA.

I've always like the idea of them waking up one day after the PD were sealed and realizing that they had no home anymore and what was worse they were fighting for their survival against a vastly outnumbering enemy.

Everyone "assumes" the Macross era SA are the agressors. Why? Because they are the enemy of the Zentreadi?

It seems a bit hard to believe that they'd still be brainwashed after a half a million years when the Megaroad crew could be snapped out of direct mind control of the PD by the persistent singing of one rock star.

Maybe they woke up and some chose to fight for their lives while others took a more agressive path?

They are as much an enigma as the PC are...

[Gubaba]

I'd beg to differ. Mac7 was popular to be sure, but really doesn't hold a candle to SDFM. There is more merchandise produced for SDFM on a yearly basis than has ever been produced for Mac 7. As a follow up TV series to SDFM it did very well, but the original has always out sold Mac 7 in merchandise and the reality is, that is what sponsors look at. If anything would be more popular than SDFM it would have to be DYRL since the film still holds up today and thus far there have been how many releases of this film on how many different media?

Well...it depends on what you mean by "merchandise." There are WAY more Mac7 CDs than SDFM CDs out there...on the other hand, I desperately want Hasegawa to make Sound Force models, but that seems about as likely as a VF-1 Gerwalk from them.

I get the definite impression that Frontier has the spirit of SDFM with the contemporary feel that Mac 7 had. Great compelling SciFi drama coupled with the silliness that comes with teenage life.

I don't think it's really split anyone...some of the members here are not too keen on the series, but I don't think I've heard more than one come out and openly say that they hate the show...and I can only think of one who has said that he refuses to watch it.

But maybe they just don't want to start a flame war...

Speaking of flame wars, I wonder what Agent One thinks of the show?

Be honest a grim drama week after week becomes depressing without a little levity...

It was called Zeta Gundam and it was AWESOME!!!

[RedWolf]

Actually it makes me think the Protoculture used Anima Spiritia quite differently from Basara.

They sealed the Protodevlin on the otherhand Basara tried to reach their hearts.

[d3v]

It was called Zeta Gundam and it was AWESOME!!!

It was awesome but it's not Macross.

Macross has never been a politically and philosophically heavy handed a series as Gundam, tending to be rather more light hearted and fun than its contemporaries.

[Gubaba]

It was awesome but it's not Macross.

Oh.

Wait, really?

All this time, I've been saying that Neon Genesis Macross Wing 0083: Heavy Metal Soldier is my favorite Macross series. Is that wrong somehow?

[d3v]

I'd like to see a story about the remnants of the SA.

I've always like the idea of them waking up one day after the PD were sealed and realizing that they had no home anymore and what was worse they were fighting for their survival against a vastly outnumbering enemy.

Everyone "assumes" the Macross era SA are the agressors. Why? Because they are the enemy of the Zentreadi?

It seems a bit hard to believe that they'd still be brainwashed after a half a million years when the Megaroad crew could be snapped out of direct mind control of the PD by the persistent singing of one rock star.

Maybe they woke up and some chose to fight for their lives while others took a more agressive path?

They are as much an enigma as the PC are...

Well if you think about it, the SA could be the entire force of one of the PC factions during the civil war that resulted in one side developing the Evil series and the Zentraedi we see are from the other faction meaning that they'd still end up fighting regardless of any PD influence.

[Keith]

I don't know. I haven't have too much problems with the franchise of Macross. Well, not much anyway. I am enjoying Frontier thus far and being that it was a series I have waited for close to two decades for perhaps mean I have more invested in it. The saying about how time makes the heart grows fonder(sp?) applies here for me I guess.

The one niggling retcon that kinda gets me though is how we never see the old designs from the original series. It's like they decided to utilise the designs from DYRL onwards as canon and quite frankly, I miss Daedalus and Prometheus...

I reconsile things this way, everything in the TV seires is 100% canon, but the Zentradi there do not represent the whole of Zentradi in the universe. TV, DYRL, & 7 give us plenty of info to wrap everythign into a neat little canon package, with Frontier continuing to solidify it. When you take into account the long history of the Protoculture, and the extended period that they used Zentradi, it's quite easy to accept that different generations of Zentradi had different clothing and or sihp/mecha variations.

When looking at the TV seires incarnation of the Bodolza fleet by itself, we're met with the cunnundrum of why male & female Zentradi, though entirely seperate, are still rolled up into one larger fleet, with the only main difference between them being the color of their ships (green & purpole), and the mecha they use (Regult & Quadran Rau). At which point you have to wonder just what the hell the Protoculture were thinking by keeping the genders seperate, but still maintaining them in the same side of their fighting force.

DYRL goes to lengths to correct this issue, showing us males & females on opposite ends of a conflict, with dramatically different ship designs, problem being they got complete wardrobe makovers too. In addition to that, the technology used by Bodolza is far more advanced & bio-mechanical.

Then 7 comes along, and reconsiles the two issues. From that series we learn that yes, the males & females were used on opposite sides of the Protoculture conflict. But due to severe losses against the PD/SA, the civil war was resolved, and Zentradi fleets were combined to maximize firepower. In this instance, it's easy to see how a female battalian could come under Bodolza's command, and resources would result in male hardwar (capitol ships) would fall into female use, i.e. necessity required it. In different circumstances, such as the Chloe fleet, females would maintain standard issue equipment, i.e. the ship & uniform styles seen in DYRL.

As you mentioned, an apparent anomoly in why Milia would hae her classic VF-1J, and TV series style uniform, in addition to Basara being portrayed with a DYRL styled uniform would seem to conflict at first. But then when you take into account that everything (including mecha & unform designs) did happen as of the 2009-2012 era, while mecha & unifrom designs advanced to the DYRL stage by the 2030 era, you have a clear reason of why both styles can appear together.

Its the same issue when you look at the Zentradi in Frontier. Some here are shown with TV style unifroms, some shown with DYRL style unifforms, all apparently equipped with male paint varients of Quadran Rau. At first, the whole situation appears to be a contradiction, but when you take into account that the group could easily be combined of two different generations of Zentradi (one decended from an earlier generation that used TV style unifroms, one descended from a later generation that used DYRL style uniforms), and all likely getting provisional mecha allocations of what was available to them at the time, Q-Rau, you have an easy explanation of why things appear as they do.

Yes, we all know the designs & concepts shown in DYRL weren't concieved of when the TV series first aired, and yes there was a period where Kawamori did state that both versions were alternate takes on the same universe (which isn't an uncommon practice at all in anime), he also wisely realized that there were plenty of fans of both interpretations, and alienatign either fanbase would be a mistake. That's why I believe when finaly being coerced into continuing the franchise, he took great care in bringing the two canons together in a believable manner. Not an easy thing to do, but I think it worked.

So when the question comes up, was Bodolza's ship a giant space turd, or was he a head in a jar in a giant space venus fly trap, the answer is clearly he captained a giant space turd. However, in later years, the U.N. Spacy did come across giant fly traps lead by heads in jars, and with those being the more common of the Zentrradi fleets after SW1, that was the style depicted in DYRL. For all we know, Bodolza had the last giant space turd ship that Earth has seen, and with that being of an older design, it would be the less common type to come across. The same may be true for female lfeets, likely not many remained that had been integraded into male fleets, with the more common rogue type being of the more familiar Meltran DYRL style designs.

While we don't have any source clearly stating that the Protoculture made different generations of Zentradi tech, we do have information showing that the Protoculture did seek to escelate their combat ability (Evil), so its not so much of a leap to believe that they'd try to imprve the Zentradi hardware in succesive generations.

My long winded point is that there doesn't need to be a fracture between oldschool/newschool Macross fans. Enough care was taken to reconsole the different canons so that we can have sequals like 7 & Frontier that appael to both. But then some people will never be happy, wanting things either one way, or another way. Me, I'm fine believing that the Macross was red white & blue, with the Daedelus & Prometheus until 2012, when it was refitted to be bigger, silver, & had newly built ARMD carriers. I'm also fine believing that the Laplamiz fleet flew in purple Zentradi turds under Bodolza's command, but other "unmixed" Meltran fleets like the Chloe fleet exist out there with pretter more mechanical looking ship designs.

But that's me.

[Raptor One]

...But that's me.

Excellent post

[dreamweaver13]

Keith, i agree. that has always been my impression of the difference in designs used in the DYRL movie. nice post.

basically, no matter how much historically accurate you would like to make a movie, it would still be greatly influenced by the fashion, trends and current circumstances at the time the movie was made.

or how about this other side of the spectrum: the DYRL movie could have had such a big impact on its audience (pretty much the entire human/zentraedi civlization at this point) at the time it came out, that people (and even the military) adapted to the fashion sense and style in the movie. it brought about a fashion and cultural revolution (a little similar to the way the Matrix affected fashion and action sequences) in all the fleets, hence we see a mix of the SDFM design and the DYRL designs in the real world (macross 7).

for all we know, exedole liked the way he was depicted in the movie so much, that he changed his style a bit to look more like it. i'm sure it does wonders when meeting the ladies. "Aren't you that exedole i saw in the movie? oh my, you look exactly the same. that's so hot."

[magnuskn]

Some will say Hikaru and Minmey were basically the same age as Alto and Ranka. True. But they were never depicted as the tipical high-school kid who all of a sudden becomes great. Hikaru, even being an ace stunt pilot, sucked big time as a fighter pilot for several episodes! Alto kicks ass basically from episode 1!

I´d rather compare Alto to Max, then. ^^

[Kronnang Dunn]

I don't know if this has been posted already, but have anybody noticed that Ranka's "father" looks a lot like a younger version of Ozma? I thought the 2 adults in the family photo from Episode 13 were Ranka and Brera's parents, but after carefully watching the image I noticed that the woman in the right is short enough to be Dr. Mao and u can never see her face well. She also seems to be wearing a lab coat...

Perhaps both Brera and Ranka are clones and Ozma's story about Ranka's parents is a cover up!!!

Edited July 9, 2008 by Kronnang Dunn

[dreamweaver13]

I don't know if this has been posted already, but have anybody noticed that this guy looks a lot like a young version of Ozma? I thought the 2 adults in the photo were Ranka and Brera's parents, but after carefully watching the image I noticed that the woman in the right is short enough to be Dr. Mao and u can never see her face well. She also seems to be wearing a lab coat. The guy in the left looks a lot like a younger Ozma...

Perhaps both Brera and Ranka are clones and Ozma's story about Ranka's parents is a cover up!!!

by the time the picture was taken, dr. mao would already be 60 years old, so i doubt it's her.

ozma and the guy in the picture could be related. possibly. would explain why ozma is so over-protective of her.

[Kronnang Dunn]

by the time the picture was taken, dr. mao would already be 60 years old, so i doubt it's her.

ozma and the guy in the picture could be related. possibly. would explain why ozma is so over-protective of her.

Well, the Vajra attack on the 117th Long Distance Research Fleet was circa 2048, so that picture must be have been taken earlier than that. Mao Nome was born on 1997 (She was 11 during the events of Macross Zero, which took place in 2008)... So she must have been 50-51 years old, not 60... She wasn't that old...

All this comes from the Compendium...

Edited July 9, 2008 by Kronnang Dunn

[dreamweaver13]

Well, the Vajra attack on the 117th Long Distance Research Fleet was circa 2048, so that picture must be have been taken earlier than that. Mao Nome was born on 1997 (She was 11 during the events of Macross Zero, which took place in 2008)... So she must have been 50-51 years old, not 60... She wasn't that old...

All this comes from the Compendium...

oops, my bad math. but still old enough to most likely not be the one in the pic. but who knows? pigs can fly. wtf-1 can happen.

[Kurisama]

Took the liberty of tweaking the pic in PS to bring the details out a bit.

Could be Mao.... Background look sorta like Galia 4...

[VF-25 Messiah]

Took the liberty of tweaking the pic in PS to bring the details out a bit.

Could be Mao.... Background look sorta like Galia 4...

Looks like she has green hair to me. Which kinda makes me rule it being Mao out. It could very well be the daughter of Mao however, if she shacked up with a Zentran. Or maybe the father is Mao's son. Anyway Ranka's a quarter zentran so there needs to be 2 generations involved.

[VF5SS]

Are you calling this girlie? Look at him! He has his gun in one hand and his woman in the other! Hikaru was a pansy compared to this chunk of beefcake.

[d3v]

Are you calling this girlie? Look at him! He has his gun in one hand and his woman in the other! Hikaru was a pansy compared to this chunk of beefcake.

If you took out his bare chest, it looks like two girls!

[mike_s_6]

Are you calling this girlie? Look at him! He has his gun in one hand and his woman in the other! Hikaru was a pansy compared to this chunk of beefcake.

Not girly... just very pretty