WTF-1 Discsussion Thread

[JB0]

Yeah but Sammy/Sasami never saw through Pixy Misa's disguise even after the hillarious "I've kidnapped Misao" scene where she kept transforming till she ran out of breath.

*laughs*

Arrrrgh... I'm gonna have to rewatch that again instead of doing something productive..

And alternate universe is probably not going to happen... even if it didn't hail from the Robotech universe you know RT fans would say it id.

But.... Last Starfighter VS Macross Frontier would be so KEWL!!!!111111

Zinjo, you failed to find Waldo, and as such, failed to back any substance in your argument. I'm done with this since nothing short of travelling 3 days into the future & handing you a copy of the episode is going to snap reason into you. Believe in your magical Macross copies attached to Megaroads for a couple days longer & enjoy it. As far as me goes, I'll be getting excited about seeing the original Macross, and hopefully finding out just how the U.N. Spacy fell.

*rubs head*

Yes. Such absolute 100% certainty.

I hope EVERYONE'S wrong, and it's just a mirage. Or a drug-induced hallucination.

...

Actually, it'd be nice to see the Magic bicycle get some more air time. I bet Alto could shoot something down in it.

[dreamweaver13]

Wouldn't it be funny if Frontier were cancelled tomorrow, and the staff was so upset about it they all made a pact never to speak about what would've happened in episodes 13 onward...?

Take that back!!! the hory froating head could have heard you!!!

[MechASsemble]

Is the enemy valkyrie in the Next Ep teaser a known model?

[Zinjo]

Zinjo, you failed to find Waldo, and as such, failed to back any substance in your argument. I'm done with this since nothing short of travelling 3 days into the future & handing you a copy of the episode is going to snap reason into you. Believe in your magical Macross copies attached to Megaroads for a couple days longer & enjoy it. As far as me goes, I'll be getting excited about seeing the original Macross, and hopefully finding out just how the U.N. Spacy fell.

Ah yes Keith the ever present, "run away" when you are beaten. I remember it well...

I have proven there is reasonable doubt which is all that can be proven given the available official information for either position on the question and in that I succeeded well. Anything else are circular arguments based on a "logical fallacy", that either position can be proven or disproven without specific information that directly involves the questions presented.

You may try to dismiss the doubt and throw back handed comments about all you like, but the results of my point still remain...

What Thursday will bring will be fun to watch, either way the pendulum swings, I too look forward to seeing what Kawamori has in store for us.

[Zinjo]

I believe the key words here are function and time. Even the SDF-1 couldn't sustain the population it had for great periods of time (remember "Bye Bye Mars"). All that "machinery" in the Megaroad superstructure were habitational/colonization facilities, so I believe that the SDF-1, despite being a great combat vessel, just wasn't fit for the Colonization Program. It was too dependable on resources from Earth and could transport half the population the Megaroad could (40,000 in the SDF-1 vs 80,000 in the Megaroad). The Megaroad is more of an island/carrier combo than a combat ship...

Now, after Quamzin's final attack Global realized that the Colonization Program should start A.S.A.P. to avoid humanity from being decimated (by either other Zentradi fleets or Supervision Army survivors). The more colonists that could be transported to other planets, the better...

So basically, he had 2 choices:

a) Finish the SDF-2, which had great weaponry, BUT consumed lots of energy and resources and could carry only 40,000-50,000 people.

b) Modify the SDF-2 into a less armed but better suited for colonization vessel (The Megaroad), which could transport 2 times the amount of colonists (80,000 people) and was less dependable on Earth resources, with Vrlitwhai Kridanik's Nupetiet Vergnitz as escort. Start repairing the SDF-1 to keep it as Earth's permanent defense.

I believe the right choice must have been obvious...

Afterwards, more Megaroads were produced and they were escorted by refited Zentradi ships and Guantanamo carriers. Then came the Bolognese Frigates and the Uraga Carriers and finally, when more planets were colonized (and the U.N. Spacy had the available resources) came the New Macross class.

So this is why I believe the ship we saw at the end of episode 12 was the SDF-1 Macross and nothing else... (You don't wanna know what must have happened in Earth...).

OK, I think you may be confusing my premise here. I am suggesting the possibility that SDF class warships were attached to the Megaroad colony fleets, not replacing the Megaroad colony vessels themselves.

To clarify, an SD cannon's energy demands are supplied by a Super Dimension, the same area the ship travels through during a fold and the home environment of the PD entities that possessed the EVIL series bio-weapons created by the PC in PC 2871, many millenia before. It does not get its power to fire from conventional means and the later SD cannons use the same kind of powering systems discovered aboard the ASS / Macross.

Your "lack of resource" argument really doesn't stand up to physical facts that the Sol Solar system has ample supply of raw materials to construct many fleets for a substantial number of years (even a substantial number of decades) before any need is required to procure resources from other colonized systems.

To assert that the only reason SDF ships could not be built is because of a lack of resources is really not well supported by the physical reality of our solar system.

Edited July 1, 2008 by Zinjo

[Zinjo]

Is the enemy valkyrie in the Next Ep teaser a known model?

If you are referring to the Purple/Burgundy (whichever) one fighting with Alto, then yes it is known to be the VF-27.

A fighter built in the Galaxy fleet and apparently unknown to the Frontier fleet until recently.

However, this question would be better suited to the dedicated Episode 12 thread instead of here.

Regards

Edited July 1, 2008 by Zinjo

[YajimaTakashi]

My apologies on the confusion.

No worries man

[Mr March]

I believe the right choice must have been obvious...

Quite right. Just a single engine on the Megaroad must have been more expensive than a SDF-1 class, so that's probably why they built so many of those cheaper red-colored, SDF-3's

Also, what's all this talk about lacking resources? After Space War I mankind had more resources available than at any previous point in human history.

Hear, hear! The resources the UN Spacy had post-SWI would have been enormous, so it wasn't for lack of money and raw materials that they didn't build SDF-1s. It's likely the UNS wanted to produce colony fleets quickly so built smaller, more numerous escorts.

OK, I think you may be confusing my premise here.

I think that happened several pages ago, so I just jumped into the current

[Kelsain]

Well, one thing's clear at least... I'll have to stay away from the entire forum until the subs come out, b/c I want to see and find out what's going on at the same time. Dern foreign language cliffhangers...

Just to throw in my 2 cents, I'm gonna claim Occam's Razor and think it's probably the SDF-1 Macross. I think Zinjo has built an interesting case, but it's about as clear cut as Guld's dastardly sabotage from the M+ OVA. It does seem to require a lot more additional circumstance and information, but who knows! I hope it's the Macross and I hope it doesn't get blown up or left behind... I can't wait to find out!

*Imagine the amounts of win seeing the Macross & Quarter fighting alongside eachother...

Edited July 1, 2008 by Kelsain

[Knight26]

OK I have a couple theories on the WTF-1, assuming it is the real SDF-1.

1) It is there because the Earth has been laid waste to and they tried to get it out, but a wonky fold jump brought it to Galia-4.

2) It launched as part of an defense force, beat back the enemy, but once again, a wonky fold jump landed it on Galia-4.

I hate both of those theories, the next one though makes a bit more sense.

3) The Macross has always retained flight capability after its retrofit. This allowed for making the DYRL movie and goodwill tours. Imagine after spending years in space and setting up a colony having the Macross come for a visit. That would be a great morale boost for some worldweary travelers. This way as well the UN Spacy could keep its HQ constantly on the move. Now, in the aftermath of the Protodevlin and Macross-13 incidents, the UN Spacy has been on pretty shaky ground with a lot of colonies getting frustrated, tired, and unsure of the UN Spacy's abilty to defend them. The Macross is therefore launched on an unprecedented goodwill tour, making stops at all the colonies, but somewhere along the way it runs into a fold dislocation, or that space-time anamoly and gets lost. This creates a huge fragmentation in all of the UN Spacy with many colonies breaking away, but retaining diplomatic ties, and even convinces many to start private colonization efforts (like Galaxy). Some of these colonies wish to remain like the UN Spacy but distance themselves from a now seemingly weakened government, and name themselves the New UN Spacy (Frontier). So they are actually a break away colony, but they retain some ties to the old UN Spacy. What will be interesting now is the political ramifications of finding the Macross intact on Galia-4.

[Hurin]

That joke has been made quite a few times already...

Well pardon me Mr. Fancy Pants.

I don't read. Especially given what little I've seen of the argument at hand. Was just looking for pretty pictures of the Macross.

Certainly hadn't seen it said in this thread.

[Radd]

Regarding the Macross' condition post-refit, I believe it's mentioned in the Compendium that it was kept as the flagship of the Earth Defense fleet for quite a while, as in an active battleship, before being retired to a more ceremonial/command position on Earth. Of course, we saw in Macross Plus that the ship was flight ready with no non-automated prep work.

On the other hand, I'm not certain why people bring up Occam's Razor in defense of it being the SDF-1 Macross. If anything, it seems to require more assumptions than the idea that the UN continued building ships of that class to accompany colony fleets.

If we assume that the UN continued building ships of the class, then you just need to assume such an accompanied colony fleet came through the general area and had a run in with someone, possibly the Vajra which we know are in the area. That's pretty much it.

If we assume that it's the SDF-1, we must have some scenario which would bring the SDF-1 Macross to this far-off planet, which in itself would require many assumptions. What made Earth unsafe? Why take the Macross? Why not take it somewhere friendly to whatever side controlled Earth? Was everyone against the Earth for some reason? Was it the UN forces that moved the Macross, or was it someone else? Was there one more magical Robotech mystery left in the ship? I could go on, but you should get the point. There's more questions to be asked if it is the SDF-1 than if it's not.

I'm still content to be blissfully agnostic, just saying that Occam's Razor may not be leaning towards the conclusion everyone seems to be saying it is.

I'd also like to point out that there is a NUNS presence on the planet, and they seem to have not noticed the old style battle fortress that seems to be relatively close to the base.

[lord_breetai]

Well pardon me Mr. Fancy Pants.

I don't read. Especially given what little I've seen of the argument at hand. Was just looking for pretty pictures of the Macross.

Certainly hadn't seen it said in this thread.

LOL just saying... it was actually made in the episode discussion thread.

[Hurin]

That image of the Macross is the first thing I've heard/read/seen about the new series that has actually motivated me to go give it a look. Now I just have to figure out how to see it.

H

[Kelsain]

On the other hand, I'm not certain why people bring up Occam's Razor in defense of it being the SDF-1 Macross. If anything, it seems to require more assumptions than the idea that the UN continued building ships of that class to accompany colony fleets.

I'm invoking the Razor in the following way: If it looks like the Macross, characters call it the Macross, and there's no canonical proof that there were ever any other ships that looked like the Macross; then it's probably the Macross.

Now if they show us otherwise, ok; but I think that'd be kind of a cop-out. Meh, either way we'll just have to wait 'til Thursday (or in my case, Saturday am to see Chihiro's sub)

[Duke Togo]

Sorry, Zin, you are totally crackers on this one. Its not even worth arguing the point with you, you're that far out there.

[PetarB]

You are all wrong. At the start of the next episode, an old, old Rick Hunter and Lisa Hayes will hobble out from the ship, look up and say 'help us, we are trying to escape from the Shadow Chronicles, help us please!'

[RichterX]

I am more concern with what happen to Earth and if the SDF-1 is salvageable.

[The_WOZ]

I have the bad feeling it'll be destroyed.

(the WTF-1)

Edited July 1, 2008 by The_WOZ

[Duke Togo]

I have the bad feeling it'll be destroyed.

(the WTF-1)

Nah, I doubt it.

[dreamweaver13]

You are all wrong. At the start of the next episode, an old, old Rick Hunter and Lisa Hayes will hobble out from the ship, look up and say 'help us, we are trying to escape from the Shadow Chronicles, help us please!'

hehe. ftw.

on another matter, good old friar william of occam must be rolling in his grave right now...

"what?? my perfect methodological theory is being used to debate a plot point on an animated show?? you gotta be kidding me!!"

Edited July 2, 2008 by dreamweaver13

[wolfx]

Haven't been following the new series. But the only thing I thought when I saw this was:

(heston)

"You Maniacs! . . . You blew it up! . . . Ah, damn you! . . . God damn you all to hell!

(/heston)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLt1t-nTEy0

Well only about 24 hours to go before we know wtf is the WTF-1.

[Radd]

Longer than that if we don't speak Japanese, and would rather wait than hear spoilers from those who do.

Unless the fansubbers really outdo themselves.

[ChronoReverse]

Why can't it just be some other Supervision Army Gunship? It's not like the ASS-1 was unique.

Edited July 2, 2008 by ChronoReverse

[Master Dex]

Why can't it just be some other Supervision Army Gunship? It's not the ASS-1 was unique.

Because Supervision Army Gunships didn't transform or have ARMD carriers attached to them. The whole transforming and attaching other ships was something the SDF-1 did after it was refitted from the ASS-1.

Edited July 2, 2008 by Master Dex

[ChronoReverse]

Huh. The humans gave the ASS-1 transforming tech? I thought they got transformation technology from OT which was derived from ASS-1.

You're right about the ARMD though, so that's a wash then...

Edited July 2, 2008 by ChronoReverse

[The_WOZ]

Erm... because is in storm attacker mode and have those ARMDs attached?

Oops! Master Dex said it first

Edited July 2, 2008 by The_WOZ

[Master Dex]

Huh. The humans gave the ASS-1 transforming tech? I thought they got transformation technology from OT which was derived from ASS-1.

You're right about the ARMD though, so that's a wash then...

The transforming ability of the Macross was sort of an accident really. It came about because the Macross was built on a modular block system which may or may not have been the same on the ASS-1, but it doesn't seem so when you look at the original Supervision Army design. So it is probably how it was refitted that gave it that modular system. The only reason the SDF-1 transformed was to fill a gap in it's system keeping the main gun from firing due to a missing fold drive that vanished after that infamous botched jump. I don't think that humanity ever planned the SDF-1 to be a transforming battleship, however they must have liked the idea as they purposefully designed the New Macross class with a Storm Attacker mode for battle purposes, and even further with the Macross Quarter.

[wolfx]

The transforming ability of the Macross was sort of an accident really. It came about because the Macross was built on a modular block system which may or may not have been the same on the ASS-1, but it doesn't seem so when you look at the original Supervision Army design. So it is probably how it was refitted that gave it that modular system. The only reason the SDF-1 transformed was to fill a gap in it's system keeping the main gun from firing due to a missing fold drive that vanished after that infamous botched jump. I don't think that humanity ever planned the SDF-1 to be a transforming battleship, however they must have liked the idea as they purposefully designed the New Macross class with a Storm Attacker mode for battle purposes, and even further with the Macross Quarter.

What he said. And i believe we mentioned it like gazillion times why it isn't a SA ship.

The whole internets thinks it is.

[dreamweaver13]

The transforming ability of the Macross was sort of an accident really. It came about because the Macross was built on a modular block system which may or may not have been the same on the ASS-1, but it doesn't seem so when you look at the original Supervision Army design. So it is probably how it was refitted that gave it that modular system. The only reason the SDF-1 transformed was to fill a gap in it's system keeping the main gun from firing due to a missing fold drive that vanished after that infamous botched jump. I don't think that humanity ever planned the SDF-1 to be a transforming battleship, however they must have liked the idea as they purposefully designed the New Macross class with a Storm Attacker mode for battle purposes, and even further with the Macross Quarter.

actually, this reason of how the macross transformation came about always bothered me. whether its canon or not, i don't really know. but as to the practicality.... no way a complex transformation like that was unintended or unplanned by the SDF-1 re-designers.

i would instead justify that the transformation of the ship at that particular time was forced by necessity, and that global would have preferred not to transform if he had a choice.

[ChronoReverse]

It's fridge logic. If the original design wasn't meant to transform, retrofitting the thing to be able to transform is a huge undertaking. It seems even more far-fetched than usual to think that they went "Hmm, we really need to connect these two points because the fold engines disappeared on us. I know! We'll try transforming the ship!". Surely it would've been easier to lay out long cables (considering they could rebuild a city so quickly) unless it was intentionally rebuilt to transform.

Edited July 2, 2008 by ChronoReverse

[wolfx]

My logical take on the whole transforming thing:

I think parts of the ship was supposed to move in a way that will supply power directly to the cannons as an emergency measure in the original SA ship design. It just happened that the parts that could move were refitted into the SDF-1 that it happens to look like a humanoid (much to Global's surprise as well) For all we know the Macross might've looked like a duck after transformation and still fire its main cannon.

Of course firing without transformation would've been the best option as they don't need to wait for tranformation to happen before firing the main cannons. And the issue of overheating/malfunctioning conduits will be moot.

[Master Dex]

It's fridge logic. If the original design wasn't meant to transform, retrofitting the thing to be able to transform is a huge undertaking. It seems even more far-fetched than usual to think that they went "Hmm, we really need to connect these two points because the fold engines disappeared on us. I know! We'll try transforming the ship!". Surely it would've been easier to lay out long cables (considering they could rebuild a city so quickly) unless it was intentionally rebuilt to transform.

That was brought up in the show if you watch the first episode where it transforms. Global said they didn't have any spare conduit to connect the two pieces to transfer power to the gun. The only option the engineer had for him was to move the blocks together so the could be connected, and the only way to do this was to reorganize the block structure of the ship. I also always got that vibe that the fact it looked like a humanoid was mere coincidence and they didn't intend that. However I can see how that sounds fishy.

[Zinjo]

I'm invoking the Razor in the following way: If it looks like the Macross, characters call it the Macross, and there's no canonical proof that there were ever any other ships that looked like the Macross; then it's probably the Macross.

Ah, but there is where the reasonable doubt becomes most apparent. There is no canonical proof either way.

Canon documentation ends with the launch of the Megaroad 01. As in the number of colony ships in that fleet and the support vessels included (via published image). After Megaroad 01, the constitution of the fleets are simply not known or recorded. All information is about the Macross's relationship with Spacy and Earth Defence. The "canonical proof" is simply not there to support either opinion, which is why I wouldn't attempt to prove either because the needed information is conspicuously "missing" for both camps.

Sorry, Zin, you are totally crackers on this one. Its not even worth arguing the point with you, you're that far out there.

You can comment on my mental state all you like, it doesn't change that reasonable doubt exists.

Each are entitled to their position and are free to debate until the answer is finally revealed on Thursday morning, despite the religious rantings of some...

[dreamweaver13]

That was brought up in the show if you watch the first episode where it transforms. Global said they didn't have any spare conduit to connect the two pieces to transfer power to the gun. The only option the engineer had for him was to move the blocks together so the could be connected, and the only way to do this was to reorganize the block structure of the ship. I also always got that vibe that the fact it looked like a humanoid was mere coincidence and they didn't intend that. However I can see how that sounds fishy.

exactly! i also heard the dialogue in that episode, and i know what it implied. but my first thought was "yeah right. no one knew that the ship was capable of transforming into a robot.... suuuure."

it's like the engineer was messing around with global's head that time, and he was supressing his laughter the whole time. and after global left, he told his co-engineers, "what a sucker! he actually believed that crap! as if we could transform an entire frickin ship just by chance???" And that point, the entire engineering crew fell to the floor laughing their asses out.