NUNS References in Macross II

[sdf2501]

Back in December or so, I was catching up on all the Macross series in order to prep myself for Frontier. I finished all the series, and figured I'd watch Macross II for the heck of it.

When a poster in the Ep 12 thread said that there's been no NUNS reference before Frontier, I knew that wasn't quite true as I could have sworn I saw NUNS somewhere in Macross II, although it has been a while since I had last watched it. So I figured I'd watch Macross II again a little bit more closely, and try to track down the instances. So here is what I found, although I wasn't watching with a fine tooth comb (I could have sworn that NUNS was painted on the side of a building, but I couldn't find it so I might have mis-remembered that; I did watch a lot of Macross that day).

I used PowerDVD to catch the times and VLC to grab the screenshots, but the times don't sync up. The times I'll be quoting are from PowerDVD.

To set the stage, Culture Park was just attacked by the Marduk, Hibiki and Ishtar are recovering at Hibiki's apartment. They are watching the news of the attack, and Hibiki continues to be disgusted at how the Military is covering up the incidents making the operations look more successful than they actually were.

The news report starts talking about the aftermath of the attack. At 0:46:17, a victim is being interviewed:

Now, based on that, you may think that NUNS is just another channel. But three seconds later at 0:46:20, we see this:

They're using the UN Spacey kite logo as their station logo. So perhaps they're not a regular TV station (SNN seems to have their own logo and doesn't touch the kite logo at all); most likely, because of the logo use, the people providing the report on the TV are probably attached to military somehow (heck, maybe the military even has its own channel).

Here's another shot from 0:47:06:

and fast forward to 1:51:23 when messages on television start to come through assuring the civilians that the current invasion by the Marduk is nothing to worry about, but as a precaution, they're evacuating people to shelters (this despite the fact that the military is getting their @$$es handed to them). Note the NUNS label on the camera, and the military people on the stage. In fact, it kind of looks like the camera guy is wearing a uniform as well:

So based on the shots above, the acronym 'NUNS' has been around since the early 90's. Whether or not it means the same thing as the NUNS in Frontier is unknown. What NUNS's exact relationship to UN Spacey in the context of Macross II is also unknown, although I'm leaning towards an informational/propaganda arm of the government because we see some "UN Spacey" labels in the OVA as well (sorry, forgot to get shots of those). Although, I do think that the NUNS in Macross II does have some strong ties to the military somehow.

Just curious, the subtitles (translation by Neil Nadelman, I believe) state "UN Spacey" when people are talking about the military, but for those fluent in Japanese, is what the characters say the exact same thing as what the UN Spacey is called in the other official Macross series?

I think more relevant to Frontier is the theme of the military in Macross II getting complacent after 80 years, and exploring the fact that they have to work hard to keep up appearances that all is going well with the Marduk because if they don't, the civilians will lose faith in the military. I think that theme is more relevant to Frontier, and is part of the reason why UN Spacey rebranded itself into NUNS.

So, what do you guys think?

Edited June 29, 2008 by sdf2501

[Duke Togo]

So, what do you guys think?

Kawamori has been trying to incorporate bits of Macross II into the franchise for over a decade. I don't find it surprising at all.

[sdf2501]

Kawamori has been trying to incorporate bits of Macross II into the franchise for over a decade. I don't find it surprising at all.

Really? I thought they all declared it a bastard child of the franchise and would have assumed they'd try to ignore it. Kudos if they're trying to borrow some themes though.

[Duke Togo]

Really? I thought they all declared it a bastard child of the franchise and would have assumed they'd try to ignore it. Kudos if they're trying to borrow some themes though.

That is what they say, but he been sneaking it in ever since. Hell, we even had Macross II music show up in Macross 7.

[sdf2501]

That is what they say, but he been sneaking it in ever since. Hell, we even had Macross II music show up in Macross 7.

Oh yeah, that's right.

Makes you wonder how *that* fits into everything, considering Wendy Ryder's not only from an alternate timeline, but also from the future.

[ComicKaze]

I think Kawamori appreciates Macross II for what it is and also likes the mechanical designs and music in it. It's pretty much Studio Nue and the money involved in the big liscensing and franchise issues that wants to distance itself.

And also elitist Macross purists who are dumb.

In Macross II, NUNS as seen seems to be shown as a government owned propaganda/media wing. New or Neo UN Spacy probably exists there. Also, they are using the Neo UN SPACY kite in Macross II which has the break moved to the right or else has it's axis tipped 90 degrees and the break rotated also.

Edited June 29, 2008 by ComicKaze

[Master Dex]

And also elitist Macross purists who are dumb.

[stuckuprichvoice]Yesss... this Macross II is quite below my league, I wouldn't be caught dead associating with it and those mongrel VF-2SS. My elite Macross membership may cover sound forces and throttle jockeys who can fly with guitars, but I draw the line at this far fetched Marduk war.[/stuckuprichvoice]

JK . Actually I don't really have a problem with Macross II, but I admittedly didn't like it that much. Also I haven't even seen more than 1 episode of Macross 7, so I can't really compare that anyway.

[UN Spacy]

Nice find sdf2501.

The spinning VF-25 in the intro reminds me of they eyecatch used in M:II.

[aerocombatpilot]

That is what they say, but he been sneaking it in ever since. Hell, we even had Macross II music show up in Macross 7.

WAIT A MINUTE! THERE WAS MACROSS II MUSIC IN MACROSS 7?? WHEN? WHERE? WHAT EPISODE??

[ComicKaze]

WAIT A MINUTE! THERE WAS MACROSS II MUSIC IN MACROSS 7?? WHEN? WHERE? WHAT EPISODE??

Fire Bomber covers Wendy Ryder's "Banana Moon of Love".

Maybe her CD appeared in Basara's player during a fold dislocation from an alternate dimension.

[Gubaba]

WAIT A MINUTE! THERE WAS MACROSS II MUSIC IN MACROSS 7?? WHEN? WHERE? WHAT EPISODE??

Which episode DIDN'T have Macross II music? Flaschakaya singing the MII Image Song, The Jamming Birds singing Wendy Ryder's Valkyrie song, various background music tucked in here and there...pick any random episode of 7 and you'll probably hear II or Plus music in it...

[Mr March]

I really don't want to get into the whole Macross II vs. Everyone else thing, but I will comment on some of your points as I see it.

According to the Macross Compendium, the NUNS was an official continuity fact before Macross II was produced. The new United Nations Government is mentioned as forming right after the end of Space War I as a replacement for the now annihilated United Nations Government. The Macross Compendium also makes mention of the New Era Calendar which was to start with the end of Space War I, but seems to now have been abandoned. Some might remember this discussion in the Macross Frontier threads in which many of us struggled to determine whether the NUNS was truly retcon or was supposed to be NUNS in all the sequels ever since post-Space War I. So the NUNS in Macross II appears to have borrowed from the original Macross literature, not the other way around. This only makes sense, since Macross Plus was still two years away when Macross II was released and the franchise only consisted of SWI-era animated productions and the chronology to that point. It also fits in with Kawamori's re-visitation of the original Macross themes in Macross Frontier.

In regards to the SMS, I see no Macross II influence at all. The theme in Macross II was complacency via the Minmay Defense and there was no related social commentary. Macross Frontier is very much a science fiction play upon the old west as is the SMS. The name "Frontier" is indicative of the old west itself, the mysterious stranger (Brera Stern, dressed in cowboy boots no less!) that plays the "harmonica" (that instrument itself an obvious homage to Sergio Leone's great western Once Upon A Time In The West), the Macross 25/Frontier appearing as a pioneer fleet of covered wagons (the various Islands), and so forth. Going back to the SMS, they are most definitely inspired by the same "old west" genre themes; they defy convention and are somewhat "beyond the law", presented as the only "real men" that can meet the challenges of the new frontier. This is in stark contrast to the NUNS described as impotent (Ozuma claims they are cowards) that represent a failing law and the social commentary that inherently implies.

This is also not the first time Kawamori has infused Macross with old west genre themes. Macross Plus was also filled with numerous such references and themes (the character of Isamu, the dedication to "pioneers", the showdown, etc). Most fans would probably recognize aspects of this influence most potently in Yoko Kanno's old west leitmotifs used in the Macross Plus soundtrack, such as Welcome to Sparefish (themes which Kanno again revisits for the musical score in Macross Frontier).

I'd also like to know whether they actually use the NUNS by name for the dialog in Macross II. I'd also like to know from which source came the trivia about the New Unity Government trivia that's been included on the Macross Compendium for ages now. Might explain quite a bit.

Edited June 29, 2008 by Mr March

[Gubaba]

Fire Bomber covers Wendy Ryder's "Banana Moon of Love".

:lol:

I wish they had! That would've been cool.

(Although Wendy Ryder didn't sing "Banana Moon," that was done by the nameless Minmay Attack girl...)

[Master Dex]

Something I thought about while reading March's post. While they said in Macross that the New United Nation Government (NUNG) was formed after SW1, they didn't say the military was then being called the New United Nations Spacey (NUNS), and in fact continued to use United Nations Spacey (UNS) up through Macross 7. Now in Frontier they are calling it NUNS, showing something changed. Perhaps our wondering about how they said it was New in Macross version how it seems only new now was a misconception because we were viewing NUNG and NUNS as the same thing when one is the government and the other in the military.

As for the role of NUNS in Frontier, I have noticed and am a little displeased with how incompetent they seem to be now. In Macross, Mac+, and from what I have seen and read about of Mac7 the UNS was a pretty capable force and did a good job (mostly due to the good personnel they had such as Isamu, Max, etc.) but the NUNS can't seem to do anything on their own without calling in SMS to save them. I liked how well the UNS did it's job. For whatever reason they changed to NUNS, it obviously had an impact on their effectiveness.

[taksraven]

Look, I've seen signs of NUNS infiltrating our media for years, even BEFORE Macross II. Just look at this.

AND this.....

I mean, its everywhere, like its a government conspiracy..... (looks around nervously)

Taksraven

Edited June 29, 2008 by taksraven

[Mr March]

I don't think they distinguish the two. The Macross Compendium describes both the new United Nations Government and the new UN Forces. So it seems clear all branches of civilian and military organizations were labeled as new post-SWI.

I'm not really all that bothered by the ineptitude of the NUNS. I just right it off as the hero syndrome and more genre themes being explored. In many ways the SMS seems like just a convenient plot device; a way to infuse some more intrigue into the story. Besides, internal conflict is a time honored method for creating good drama; it helps create another hurdle for the characters, making the stakes that much higher (something used to great effect in another show I'm currently enjoying called "The Wire").

[Sulendil Ang]

Look, I've seen signs of NUNS infiltrating our media for years, even BEFORE Macross II.

LOL.

March: But still, your theory can't explained away the absent of the UN Kite in the NUNS fighters, or the sudden usage of the term in MF (Remember, all Macross shows consistently called the space military branch of NUNG as the UN Spacy until now).

[Mr March]

My post is not an attempt to explain away anything. As I said, most of us are still up in the air as to why the NUNS came about, why all the insignia from the UNS kite to the Zentradi emblem have changed and what if any bearing the events of VF-X2 have played on Macross Frontier. What my post does is label, IMO, what are the more likely explanations for NUNS in Macross II and Frontier.

[Sulendil Ang]

My post is not an attempt to explain away anything. As I said, most of us are still up in the air as to why the NUNS came about, why all the insignia from the UNS kite to the Zentradi emblem have changed and what if any bearing the events of VF-X2 have played on Macross Frontier. What my post does is label, IMO, what are the more likely explanations for NUNS in Macross II and Frontier.

Sorry for the misunderstanding, March! Yeah, there's no way to fully explain the political sphere of MF without using bunch of fanfic and imagination. I guess it's all about 'wait and see'.

[aerocombatpilot]

Which episode DIDN'T have Macross II music? Flaschakaya singing the MII Image Song, The Jamming Birds singing Wendy Ryder's Valkyrie song, various background music tucked in here and there...pick any random episode of 7 and you'll probably hear II or Plus music in it...

Well if that's the case then Macross 7 might be worth watching again.

[Gubaba]

Well if that's the case then Macross 7 might be worth watching again.

BOMBA!

[Master Dex]

I actually do like SMS and the story intrigue it lends to Frontier. So far nothing has been bad about Frontier for me. I was just saying it is kind of sad to see a military force go from being so good to being so inept, even if it is just the hero syndrome with the heroes being a PMC.

[JB0]

Really? I thought they all declared it a bastard child of the franchise and would have assumed they'd try to ignore it. Kudos if they're trying to borrow some themes though.

Kawamori said he's got no opinion on it, since he's never seen it.

Then he shuffled it into an alternate reality, ensuring he didn't have to deal with it.

[Gubaba]

Kawamori said he's got no opinion on it, since he's never seen it.

Then he shuffled it into an alternate reality, ensuring he didn't have to deal with it.

That was a long time ago when he said he hadn't seen it...I wonder if it still holds true.

[Sumdumgai]

Then at the end of episode 13 we get another bombshell dropped on us. Alto and Ranka go onto the bridge of the SDF-1 Macross and find a passed out Ishtar laying next to Hikaru, Misa, and Minmay, who are laying next to Shin Kudo and Sara Nome.

Then Kawamori appears on the bridge, pulls off his mask to reveal Shaymamamalan who breaks the fourth wall, grins and says: "WHAT A TWIST!"

Seriously though, wouldn't that be another WTF if Ishtar appeared in this series?

[treatment]

Seriously though, wouldn't that be another WTF if Ishtar appeared in this series?

What if Ishtar becomes a direct descendant of Ranka?!

dun dun dun!!!

[sdf2501]

I really don't want to get into the whole Macross II vs. Everyone else thing, but I will comment on some of your points as I see it.

According to the Macross Compendium, the NUNS was an official continuity fact before Macross II was produced. The new United Nations Government is mentioned as forming right after the end of Space War I as a replacement for the now annihilated United Nations Government. The Macross Compendium also makes mention of the New Era Calendar which was to start with the end of Space War I, but seems to now have been abandoned. Some might remember this discussion in the Macross Frontier threads in which many of us struggled to determine whether the NUNS was truly retcon or was supposed to be NUNS in all the sequels ever since post-Space War I. So the NUNS in Macross II appears to have borrowed from the original Macross literature, not the other way around. This only makes sense, since Macross Plus was still two years away when Macross II was released and the franchise only consisted of SWI-era animated productions and the chronology to that point. It also fits in with Kawamori's re-visitation of the original Macross themes in Macross Frontier.

This is something I've been wondering for a while.

In the official Macross continuity, perhaps it's been NUNS all this time, and now they've just started to use the acronym more often.

Of course, if that is true, one still has to wonder what happened to make that change (along with an obvious logo change), since we've never seen it so explicitly before in the various other series.

So either way, the same question still remains: what the heck happened between Macross 7 (and perhaps VF-X2) until now?

And I wasn't implying that Macross II's NUNS or anything in it had anything to do with Frontier. I'm quite happy to leave it as alternate timeline-type stuff and any similarities found in Frontier to it as fan service. There'd be no point in debating any of it since Kawamori et al have already dismissed the events. Just thought it was interesting that the NUNS acronym was displayed so prominently in that OVA.

Of course, Ranka = emulator-type person wouldn't surprise me, since they've shown her singing has a weird effect on Vajra. And heck, with having the SDF-1 deposited in a decrepit state on a distant planet, I wouldn't be surprised if it were to get destroyed at the end of this series in a similar fashion as the end of Macross II. I mean, why not? You'd never have thunk they'd do something like that officially to the Macross (having it uprooted from Earth). So at this point, I like to think that anything goes.

Certainly interesting times for a Macross fan.

[sdf2501]

Then at the end of episode 13 we get another bombshell dropped on us. Alto and Ranka go onto the bridge of the SDF-1 Macross and find a passed out Ishtar laying next to Hikaru, Misa, and Minmay, who are laying next to Shin Kudo and Sara Nome.

Then Kawamori appears on the bridge, pulls off his mask to reveal Shaymamamalan who breaks the fourth wall, grins and says: "WHAT A TWIST!"

Seriously though, wouldn't that be another WTF if Ishtar appeared in this series?

You mean, like if it turned out that the Marduk were the ones behind the scores of renegade Zentradi that seem to be everywhere these days?

[Gubaba]

Then at the end of episode 13 we get another bombshell dropped on us. Alto and Ranka go onto the bridge of the SDF-1 Macross and find a passed out Ishtar laying next to Hikaru, Misa, and Minmay, who are laying next to Shin Kudo and Sara Nome.

Then Kawamori appears on the bridge, pulls off his mask to reveal Shaymamamalan who breaks the fourth wall, grins and says: "WHAT A TWIST!"

Seriously though, wouldn't that be another WTF if Ishtar appeared in this series?

Beat you to it...

http://macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?show...mp;#entry616094

[Sumdumgai]

Beat you to it...

http://macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?show...mp;#entry616094

completely missed that, since I've been trying not to go into that thread too much. Great minds think alike!

[Kronnang Dunn]

Kawamori said he's got no opinion on it, since he's never seen it.

Then he shuffled it into an alternate reality, ensuring he didn't have to deal with it.

That was a looong time ago...

I'm glad Macross II is being revisited. Perhaps finally it will be integrated into the official universe... like I said before... with a little imagination anything is possible...

Loved Ohata Koichi designs on Mac II btw...

More and more I'm convinced Macross Frontier is going to be the end-all-be-all Macross series like the rumors said it was going to be before it aired...

[Gubaba]

completely missed that, since I've been trying not to go into that thread too much. Great minds think alike!

Yeah, I think "Ishtar shows up!" is the logical answer to the question, "Golly gee, the Macross just appeared in Macross F! What could possibly happen that would be even MORE bizarre and out of left field?"

[Gubaba]

like I said before... with a little imagination anything is possible...

Wasn't that Doug Henning's line...?

More and more I'm convinced Macross Frontier is going to be the end-all-be-all Macross series like the rumors said it was going to be before it aired...

You know...you may be on to something...

[taksraven]

That was a looong time ago...

I'm glad Macross II is being revisited. Perhaps finally it will be integrated into the official universe... like I said before... with a little imagination anything is possible...

Loved Ohata Koichi designs on Mac II btw...

More and more I'm convinced Macross Frontier is going to be the end-all-be-all Macross series like the rumors said it was going to be before it aired...

Possibly the last Macross, fixing up as many loose ends as possible? Would be kinda sad but it would be great to see the franchise go out on a high. (As long as it does not have an Odeon-style finale)

(I don't *really* believe that it would be a final-macross series, but you never know. I would hate to see it degenerate into something like what Gundam has become. ie, a joke that never should have gone beyond the UC)

Taksraven

[Mr March]

This is something I've been wondering for a while.

In the official Macross continuity, perhaps it's been NUNS all this time, and now they've just started to use the acronym more often.

Of course, if that is true, one still has to wonder what happened to make that change (along with an obvious logo change), since we've never seen it so explicitly before in the various other series.

So either way, the same question still remains: what the heck happened between Macross 7 (and perhaps VF-X2) until now?

And I wasn't implying that Macross II's NUNS or anything in it had anything to do with Frontier. I'm quite happy to leave it as alternate timeline-type stuff and any similarities found in Frontier to it as fan service. There'd be no point in debating any of it since Kawamori et al have already dismissed the events. Just thought it was interesting that the NUNS acronym was displayed so prominently in that OVA.

Of course, Ranka = emulator-type person wouldn't surprise me, since they've shown her singing has a weird effect on Vajra. And heck, with having the SDF-1 deposited in a decrepit state on a distant planet, I wouldn't be surprised if it were to get destroyed at the end of this series in a similar fashion as the end of Macross II. I mean, why not? You'd never have thunk they'd do something like that officially to the Macross (having it uprooted from Earth). So at this point, I like to think that anything goes.

Certainly interesting times for a Macross fan.

I too initially thought that perhaps it was meant to be NUNS all along, but as you say, it just doesn't track. The change of logos, the rise of the SMS, the various internal factions and their agendas; it all points to something new rather than retcon. So far we're really left in the dark and I hope we get some more answers. But even if we don't, I'm willing to let it slide as long as the story of Macross Frontier remains as strong as it has been so far.

I didn't think your post was a conscious effort to connect MII to Frontier; I only wanted to add missing facts that NUNS has been around longer than the early 90's, as you suggested. I was also a little worried connections were being made between MII and Frontier at the expense of the more likely, legitimate influences. I think it's only natural some fans attempt to find connections between MII and the Macross franchise. Macross II is often perceived as the ignored bastard child of the franchise and it's obvious some fans resent MII's expulsion from the official chronology, even going so far as to blame Kawamori (who, ironically, appears to have nothing to do with MII). Finding coincidences is a way fans can overcome the official divorcing of MII from the chronology. So in a way, Macross II has become Macross fandom's own personal apophenia, just like Pink Floyd