Form of civilian government in the Macross Universe

[dreamweaver13]

a small discussion started in the frontier plot theories thread when Kronnang pointed out that Howard Glass was not only the president of the Frontier, but of the entire New United Government. Might as well continue in a new thread here coz it would already be way too OT in that thread...

it's interesting, actually, to have the president of the entire UNG to not be on earth, but on the Frontier. But that's not my question. i was just wondering about the government system in the macross universe.

With HG (Howard Glass!, not that other acronym) as the President of the UNG, it would seem that the macross universe has adopted a presidential system. i wonder what kind? i would surmise that by that time, they had created their own government type with a unique balance between the civilian and the military. but i wonder which it is closest to?

Since Glass is the president of the New UNG (and not the frontier), is it possible that the position of mayor in other civilian fleets still exists? All the while i had assumed that Glass is the president of the frontier, thus all other fleets have their own presidents. but with this, glass could very well be the president, and the other fleets would still be governed by their respective mayors (as was the case in Macross 7).

if so, is it closest to a federal republic? with the president as the chief executive of all colony fleets and the earth government. but each separate state (or in this case, colony fleet) would have its own level of autonomy, through its local chief executives (i.e. the mayors)?

Is Glass, in his role of the UNG, also serving as the commander-in-chief of the NUNS? or is the NUNS an independent entity altogether? i would understand if the military no longer recognizes the superiority of the civilian over the military, post SW1. but on the other hand, the NUNS do seem to give some level of deference to the commands of Glass.

Or is it more similar to the rag-tag government system in the new BSG series, where the position of the President is more of a morale-boosting and ceremonial position, which the military can take away anytime?

maybe there aren't enough facts to make an informed guess one way or the other, but it's still interesting to speculate.

and of course, if this is already an old question that has been answered long ago, feel free to direct me to the newbie thread. (actually, that was where i originally intended to post, but the post got a bit longer than expected).

[Morpheus]

Howard Glass is the president of Frontier. Frontier Government is part of the New United Government, just like other countries took took part in UN with UN army (NUNS) as their main military branch.

[dreamweaver13]

Howard Glass is the president of Frontier. Frontier Government is part of the New United Government, just like other countries took took part in UN with UN army (NUNS) as their main military branch.

that's also what i thought, but the macross frontier website said otherwise. Glass is listed as the President (大統領) of the New United Government (新統合政府). (thanks to gubaba for the translation).

[Gubaba]

Howard Glass is the president of Frontier. Frontier Government is part of the New United Government, just like other countries took took part in UN with UN army (NUNS) as their main military branch.

No, he's actually the President of the New United Government...Check it out.

[Morpheus]

No, he's actually the President of the New United Government...Check it out.

(freak out mode ON)

Howard Glass is the president of the New U.N. and administrative director of the Macross Frontier fleet. He carries the authority and bears the responsibility of the political decisions in various situations of space travel to keep civilian lives safe.

So does it mean he has authority over Galaxy as well?

Its a bit weird if he is the president of the known Macross Universe Even if he is, why he only send couple of ships and SMS to rescue Galaxy when he got an entire NUNS army under his command?

Or he is one of the president in N.U.G.?

And where the hell is Vrlitwhai? He's supposed to be the supreme commander of NUNS right? So he supposed to be with Howard then if he is the Palpatine of Macross...

(caffeine + 4chan is bad for your health....)

Edited June 26, 2008 by Morpheus

[dreamweaver13]

(freak out mode ON)

So does it mean he has authority over Galaxy as well?

Its a bit weird if he is the president of the known Macross Universe Even if he is, why he only send couple of ships and SMS to rescue Galaxy when he got an entire NUNS army under his command?

Or he is one of the president in N.U.G.?

And where the hell is Vrlitwhai? He's supposed to be the supreme commander of NUNS right? So he supposed to be with Howard then if he is the Palpatine of Macross...

(caffeine + 4chan is bad for your health....)

one of the president in N.U.G.? ha. now that's an interesting thought. i didn't think of that. why not? who says it just has to be one president? this is a future government we're talking about after all. who knows what weird system they came up with?

who ever is the supreme commander of the military (NUNS) is probably back on earth, in SDF-1 Macross. assuming, of course, that the SDF-1 is still the headquarters of UN Spacey after it became NUNS.

but i think he did send the best army to rescue the galaxy. some are of the opinion that the frontier is the only fleet with an SMS and a Macross quarter. considering how special Glass seems to be, i think those special ships and squadrons are unique to the frontier. thus the best hope to rescue the galaxy would be to send the very best.

[Kelsain]

Or he is one of the president in N.U.G.?

This is kind of what I was thinking.

On one hand, you'd think if Frontier was the 'roving capital' of the NUG, the NUNS military wouldn't be so incompetent. I guess its possible that the military may have hung Howard out to dry and deliberately staffed the fleet with green pilots. However, remember in both versions of Ep1, Glass is first shown behind his desk and the description "Frontier Presidency" is shown on the screen. That, more than anything, says to me that there may be several presidents out there. Likely they'd be given more sweeping authority than the mayors in order to safeguard and better control the larger and further traveling fleets.

*edit "They're given more" sound more definitive - I'm only speculating. Switched to "They'd be"

Edited June 26, 2008 by Kelsain

[Duke Togo]

So does it mean he has authority over Galaxy as well?

Yes and no. The Galaxy is a corporately funded and run fleet. While they fly the NUNS flag, they seem to feel totally free to break any number of interstellar laws.

Edited June 26, 2008 by Duke Togo

[d3v]

And where the hell is Vrlitwhai? He's supposed to be the supreme commander of NUNS right? So he supposed to be with Howard then if he is the Palpatine of Macross...

Retired, moved in with Exsedol in some nice tropical planet that Macross 7 found where they spend their days sipping daquiris and leering at the pretty girls in swimsuits.

[Mr March]

Macross to me is like an idealized world, so whatever type of government they have, in my mind it's small. So unlike the horrible oversized governments of today. Perhaps that explains why we've seen so little of them all these years, hahaha

I do find it somewhat odd that a President of the New United Nations Government (I'm going to use NUNG) should be permanently situated aboard the Macross 25/Frontier fleet. Unless Island 1 is also the political hub of the Macross civilization, it seems like President Glass would be very disconnected from society at large and the broader NUNG political community.

Of course, we are now talking about an "interstellar" civilization. The NUNG has planets, colonies and fleets all throughout the galaxy and Earth has long since been flattened, so there wouldn't really be a particular hub of civilization in the Macross universe. One colony would likely be just as good as another, though Eden and Earth appeared to be more established colony worlds by the 2040s. Perhaps it does make some sense that a government administration would have to be "mobile" in the modern age of Macross, able to travel among the many colonies and fleets in order to be truly representative of such a "dispersed" population.

I must say, in a way, I like the idea of the NUNG President permanently residing aboard a massive, mobile colony. It is quite original. Science fiction convention has always placed governments on planets, so it's nice to see Macross breaking away from the mold. The Macross 25/Frontier fleet is also the biggest colony fleet we've ever seen and Island 1 is much more massive than any other City ship. The city of Island 1 may very well be one of the largest settlements in the NUNG, fleet or planet alike.

Since Earth was leveled, cities would be constructed to suit instead of being formed by hundreds/thousands of years of human migration. For generations now, so much of the NUNG population has been aboard colonization fleets, perhaps planets are the exception to the rule rather than the norm. If in fact the majority of the NUNG population is indeed mobile aboard fleets then it's not so bizarre to find the hub of the government aboard such a fleet.

Edited June 26, 2008 by Mr March

[Kelsain]

Retired, moved in with Exsedol in some nice tropical planet that Macross 7 found where they spend their days sipping daquiris and leering at the pretty girls in swimsuits.

I'd LOVE to see fanart of that!

[Garou Kuroryuu]

In line with my original comments on the topic, I'd find very disturbing that the whole (N)UNG "president" is aboard a ship that doesn't seem to have a lot of connection with other fleets. Hell!!, not even Galaxy which was supposed to be closest to Frontier. Let alone Earth or Eden, the most important human-inhabited planets as far as we know.

What I can concede is that Glass is NUNG's President ONBOARD frontier, meaning that he is indeed a president "aligned" with NUNG and that his power applies to the Frontier fleet ONLY. Of course, this would give him a word on NUNS activities, as a commanding officer of the attached military fleet, like many presidents of today are.

Edited June 26, 2008 by Garou Kuroryuu

[Zinjo]

I tend to think of NUNS much like the current UN, with an effective military arm.

Each colony world and fleet are considered independant "nations" within the Federal umbrella of the UNG or NUNG. Each have their own civilian governments and laws (much like state vs Federal laws) with NUNS forces assigned to that government. All have agreed to certain common federal laws (the centralized authorization to use Reaction weaponry for one), but are free to run their societies as they feel is best.

The ban on cyber implants on Frontier as opposed to their free use on Galaxy is a perfect example of autonomous lawmaking.

In the beginning all were loyal to their home (Earth) and happily members of the alliance as a whole. Add 40+ years and a new generation has emerged who've only known their own world or fleet and attitudes begin to change toward the Earth based UNG and why it is being supported.

Thus it opens up political and idealogical conflicts within the UNG alliance. It is possible that these conflicts are what caused the creation of the NUNS and why we see so few 2040's era fighters deployed.

Could there have been a divisive conflict between the member worlds that consumed a large portion of the UNS equipment? A conflict that at it's resolution forced the reformation of Spacy (how the League of Nations became the United Nations after WW2)?

Edited June 26, 2008 by Zinjo

[Roy Focker]

Each colony world and fleet are considered independant "nations" within the Federal umbrella of the UNG or NUNG. Each have their own civilian governments and laws (much like state vs Federal laws) with NUNS forces assigned to that government. All have agreed to certain common federal laws (the centralized authorization to use Reaction weaponry for one), but are free to run their societies as they feel is best.

I'm gonna go with that. Macross TV had the UN HQ pushing their will on the Macross. Macross 7 the same thing happen. I'm starting to think that the UN HQ lost a huge level of influence they had. You've got these massive colonization fleets which are entirely self-effiecent. If they decide to ingore orders, HQ can do squat. Just to keep the peace it makes sense of the fleets to operate under a new UN. Howard Glass could be head president in name only. Most colonies and fleet run themselves.

[VFTF1]

I hate to question Gubbaba - and I don't know Japanese - but are you SURE that it doesn't say that he is "a president of UNG" rather than "THE President of UNG?"

In any event, "a president" makes more sense and fits with what we've seen in the series.

It is impossible that Howard Glass is the President/ruler/executive for all of the UNG and its' feelts and planets...

Look how Sheryl reacts - she doesn't act like she's in the UNG "capitol" - in fact, no one acts as though Glass were in charge of everything.

Heck - if their system ran like that - with Glass being truly in charge of everything, then they would have known about the attack on Galaxy way before Lootenant Survivor Dude folded in and radioed them...

Nope - Compedium aside - but I refuse to believe something so patently illogical as that Glass is in charge of everything - that this one guy runs the whole show.

If anything, the UNG clearly runs like the UN we have now - there are members Colonies and Member Planets. There is a General Assembly of Member Colonies and Members Planets. There is a Security Council composed of the most powerful colony fleets and members planets.

There is a President, or Secretary General of the UNG - ok - and heck - maybe it IS Glass - but that would mean UNG is a colony vessel - its' headquarters at least...

But THAT in turn would mean that we would see Glass meeting with repesentatives from all of the other colony vessels and planets - he NEVER does.

Nope. No way. Don't believe it.

Macross is too well thought out to have such a juvenille political system...

VFTF1

[dreamweaver13]

Macross to me is like an idealized world, so whatever type of government they have, in my mind it's small. So unlike the horrible oversized governments of today. Perhaps that explains why we've seen so little of them all these years, hahaha

I do find it somewhat odd that a President of the New United Nations Government (I'm going to use NUNG) should be permanently situated aboard the Macross 25/Frontier fleet. Unless Island 1 is also the political hub of the Macross civilization, it seems like President Glass would be very disconnected from society at large and the broader NUNG political community.

Of course, we are now talking about an "interstellar" civilization. The NUNG has planets, colonies and fleets all throughout the galaxy and Earth has long since been flattened, so there wouldn't really be a particular hub of civilization in the Macross universe. One colony would likely be just as good as another, though Eden and Earth appeared to be more established colony worlds by the 2040s. Perhaps it does make some sense that a government administration would have to be "mobile" in the modern age of Macross, able to travel among the many colonies and fleets in order to be truly representative of such a "dispersed" population.

I must say, in a way, I like the idea of the NUNG President permanently residing aboard a massive, mobile colony. It is quite original. Science fiction convention has always placed governments on planets, so it's nice to see Macross breaking away from the mold. The Macross 25/Frontier fleet is also the biggest colony fleet we've ever seen and Island 1 is much more massive than any other City ship. The city of Island 1 may very well be one of the largest settlements in the NUNG, fleet or planet alike.

Since Earth was leveled, cities would be constructed to suit instead of being formed by hundreds/thousands of years of human migration. For generations now, so much of the NUNG population has been aboard colonization fleets, perhaps planets are the exception to the rule rather than the norm. If in fact the majority of the NUNG population is indeed mobile aboard fleets then it's not so bizarre to find the hub of the government aboard such a fleet.

These are very good points. And I'm starting to believe it's not so odd that the President of the entire NUNG is in a fleet, as opposed to being on earth.

The concept of humanity as an “interstellar civilization” is something that deserves much discussion. If the true purpose of the emigration is to spread humanity across the stars, does there have to be a true center of human civilization? Is this new breed of space-faring humans still bound to the concept of a home planet?

Maybe not. Maybe the human emigration project included a trigger point where once the emigration has reached a certain level, the center of human civilization would likewise move along with it. Remember that the farther humanity travels away from earth and spreads across the galaxy, the earth becomes less and less practical as a center of government, information and decision-making.

So why does it have to be earth? Why even a planet? Someone pointed out long ago that planets cannot fold (and certainly you cannot place a pinpoint barrier system over it). In that sense, a colony sheep could actually be more secure than a planet, since the former could easily fold out of harm’s way, or use it’s barriers.

In line with my original comments on the topic, I'd find very disturbing that the whole (N)UNG "president" is aboard a ship that doesn't seem to have a lot of connection with other fleets. Hell!!, not even Galaxy which was supposed to be closest to Frontier. Let alone Earth or Eden, the most important human-inhabited planets as far as we know.

What I can concede is that Glass is NUNG's President ONBOARD frontier, meaning that he is indeed a president "aligned" with NUNG and that his power applies to the Frontier fleet ONLY. Of course, this would give him a word on NUNS activities, as a commanding officer of the attached military fleet, like many presidents of today are.

yes, I definitely felt that way too. But that was until I started to think of the actual immensity of the colonization project. The sheer size of the galaxy. By now, how far away from earth are the colony fleets? If it’s already difficult to coordinate with the nearest fleet, how much harder to coordinate with eden? or earth?

Also, in actuality, how many colony fleets still start from earth by this time? Isn’t it more reasonable that the newer colony fleets would begin from the farther colonized planets (i.e. eden)? They would cover more ground this way. in that respect, how many humans by this time still have emotional attachments to earth? perhaps less and less as time goes by.

At some point, humanity as an interstellar civilization would have to veer away from its conception that the earth is the center of all civilization. If more humans are nearer to the center of the galaxy then they are to earth, then why not make the center of government move along with the general populace of humanity?

I tend to think of NUNS much like the current UN, with an effective military arm.

Each colony world and fleet are considered independant "nations" within the Federal umbrella of the UNG or NUNG. Each have their own civilian governments and laws (much like state vs Federal laws) with NUNS forces assigned to that government. All have agreed to certain common federal laws (the centralized authorization to use Reaction weaponry for one), but are free to run their societies as they feel is best.

The ban on cyber implants on Frontier as opposed to their free use on Galaxy is a perfect example of autonomous lawmaking.

In the beginning all were loyal to their home (Earth) and happily members of the alliance as a whole. Add 40+ years and a new generation has emerged who've only known their own world or fleet and attitudes begin to change toward the Earth based UNG and why it is being supported.

WW2)?

let me take the concept of the independent nations one step further…

ok let’s assume that the presidency is still voted by popular election (as was the case with millia as mayor of macros 7). If I were already thousands of light years away from earth, would I care to vote for someone that is on earth? Why does my vote have to be limited to someone on a planet so far away? Maybe I would like to vote for someone closer to where I am. and once i vote for him, why does he have to be brought to a planet i have never even been to? why can't he stay here?

And we can’t say that only the votes of the people on earth would count. That would be an affront to the majority of humanity who are no longer on earth.

So how about this? Maybe a general NUNG election is held every set number of years to determine the NUNG President from among the mayors/executive officers of each fleet and planet. Maybe it’s a vote by the entire human population. It could also be a vote among the mayors themselves (since the mayors were chosen by popular election, the president they choose among them would still be effectively the representative of the people by popular vote). It just so happened that at this time, Howard Glass was the one elected as president of the NUNG among the other fleet’s mayors. In that case, it wouldn’t matter whether he's closer to earth, to eden, or to the galactic center. He was chosen because he was the best elective candidate at the time.

It is impossible that Howard Glass is the President/ruler/executive for all of the UNG and its' feelts and planets...

Nope - Compedium aside - but I refuse to believe something so patently illogical as that Glass is in charge of everything - that this one guy runs the whole show.

There is a President, or Secretary General of the UNG - ok - and heck - maybe it IS Glass - but that would mean UNG is a colony vessel - its' headquarters at least...

But THAT in turn would mean that we would see Glass meeting with repesentatives from all of the other colony vessels and planets - he NEVER does.

Nope. No way. Don't believe it.

Macross is too well thought out to have such a juvenille political system...

VFTF1

oh come one, it might be WAY different than anything in our time, but to say it’s juvenile? That’s harsh. Who knows what works in the future?

As Zinjo pointed out, each fleet could be independent states, relatively acting on their own, having their own policies and sets of rules. Glass doesn’t have to have absolute control over the entire NUNG. He doesn’t have to be in charge of everything. He could just be an overseer. Maybe even a figurehead, for all we know. But that doesn’t discount the possibility that he is still the president of the NUNG, and not just the frontier “branch”.

In that sense, he doesn’t have to meet other fleet reps/mayors regularly. They can just go their own way, run their own fleets/planets. But i’m sure there’s a trigger somewhere; some decisions so big that need the approval of the president (i.e. declaring pre-emptive war on another species; colonizing a planet; creating a new colony fleet). It is only then that Glass would need to coordinate with other mayors. Otherwise, simple news feeds would be sufficient. This is MACROss-management at its best. (hey, I just made a pun. Whipee. )

Your hardline stance could be a product of the biased conception of earth as the homeworld, as the center of everything. But if the human space emigration project is as big a project as I think it is, earth doesn’t have to be the center. Besides, as the bugs found out in Ender’s Game, having a home planet wasn’t that big of a tactical advantage in the end, was it?

[Gubaba]

I hate to question Gubbaba - and I don't know Japanese - but are you SURE that it doesn't say that he is "a president of UNG" rather than "THE President of UNG?"

In any event, "a president" makes more sense and fits with what we've seen in the series.

It is impossible that Howard Glass is the President/ruler/executive for all of the UNG and its' feelts and planets...

Look how Sheryl reacts - she doesn't act like she's in the UNG "capitol" - in fact, no one acts as though Glass were in charge of everything.

Heck - if their system ran like that - with Glass being truly in charge of everything, then they would have known about the attack on Galaxy way before Lootenant Survivor Dude folded in and radioed them...

Nope - Compedium aside - but I refuse to believe something so patently illogical as that Glass is in charge of everything - that this one guy runs the whole show.

If anything, the UNG clearly runs like the UN we have now - there are members Colonies and Member Planets. There is a General Assembly of Member Colonies and Members Planets. There is a Security Council composed of the most powerful colony fleets and members planets.

There is a President, or Secretary General of the UNG - ok - and heck - maybe it IS Glass - but that would mean UNG is a colony vessel - its' headquarters at least...

But THAT in turn would mean that we would see Glass meeting with repesentatives from all of the other colony vessels and planets - he NEVER does.

Nope. No way. Don't believe it.

Macross is too well thought out to have such a juvenille political system...

VFTF1

You...DARE...to question the Great and Mighty GUBABA???

Then you shall...DIE!!!

Erm, not really.

The problem is that Japanese has no articles, definite or indefinite, which is why so many Japanese speakers have real trouble with "the" and "a" when they're learning English. So it just says "New United Government President." I would like to imagine that if they meant "A President," they would have said "one of the Presidents," but then, Hikaru ichijo was always just listed as "Valkyrie Pilot," and everybody knew he was A Valkyrie Pilot and not THE Valkyrie Pilot, because, y'know, there are other ones clearly visible in the show.

So yeah, he might be one of many Presidents, or he could be the only one. Japanese doesn't always use plurals, either, so it really could be anyone's guess. Let's hope we get the Great Political Episode of MacF soon so we can put the controversy to rest.

[dreamweaver13]

well, with recent developments, let me be the first to hazard a guess that both the NUNS Commander and the NUNG President aint on the Macross. there, i said it.

[Morpheus]

This entire debate about N.U.G, NUNS, and the sudden appearance of SDF-1 s a derelict makes me want to kidnapped the Hory Froating Head and questioning him personally, WTF is going on!!

[d3v]

well, with recent developments, let me be the first to hazard a guess that both the NUNS Commander and the NUNG President aint on the Macross. there, i said it.

But the President is on the Macross, on the Macross Frontier.

[Mr March]

These are very good points. And I'm starting to believe it's not so odd that the President of the entire NUNG is in a fleet, as opposed to being on earth.

The concept of humanity as an “interstellar civilization” is something that deserves much discussion. If the true purpose of the emigration is to spread humanity across the stars, does there have to be a true center of human civilization? Is this new breed of space-faring humans still bound to the concept of a home planet?

Maybe not. Maybe the human emigration project included a trigger point where once the emigration has reached a certain level, the center of human civilization would likewise move along with it. Remember that the farther humanity travels away from earth and spreads across the galaxy, the earth becomes less and less practical as a center of government, information and decision-making.

So why does it have to be earth? Why even a planet? Someone pointed out long ago that planets cannot fold (and certainly you cannot place a pinpoint barrier system over it). In that sense, a colony sheep could actually be more secure than a planet, since the former could easily fold out of harm’s way, or use it’s barriers.

Ironically enough, that was me that spoke of the disadvantages of a static colony as opposed to a mobile colony

I think we're on to something with the mobile government. It does seem like the NUNG is more in situ than any static location or planet-bound office. And like I said, there's really no colony planet that is central or larger than the others. Earth was barely populated by the time the humans/zentradi began cloning and launching massive colony fleets. Eden could even be larger than Earth at this point.

Of course, there is always the possibility that we're reading too much into this and the presidency was placed aboard the Macross Frontier simply as a dramatic device to meet the demands of the particular story of Macross Frontier

[azrael]

This entire debate about N.U.G, NUNS, and the sudden appearance of SDF-1 s a derelict makes me want to kidnapped the Hory Froating Head and questioning him personally, WTF is going on!!

This is why I'm not joining the speculating game...I'll just wait and see what happens.

[Gubaba]

This is why I'm not joining the speculating game...I'll just wait and see what happens.

Mostly I'm on the same mind, but I will speculate that, while I don't know why the Macross is on Gallia 4, I'm betting that it's all Shammy's fault.

[dreamweaver13]

But the President is on the Macross, on the Macross Frontier.

hehe. now that was a left hook i didn't catch.

Mostly I'm on the same mind, but I will speculate that, while I don't know why the Macross is on Gallia 4, I'm betting that it's all Shammy's fault.

yup, fell asleep on the wheel again, that silly girl.

[dreamweaver13]

Ironically enough, that was me that spoke of the disadvantages of a static colony as opposed to a mobile colony

I think we're on to something with the mobile government. It does seem like the NUNG is more in situ than any static location or planet-bound office. And like I said, there's really no colony planet that is central or larger than the others. Earth was barely populated by the time the humans/zentradi began cloning and launching massive colony fleets. Eden could even be larger than Earth at this point.

Of course, there is always the possibility that we're reading too much into this and the presidency was placed aboard the Macross Frontier simply as a dramatic device to meet the demands of the particular story of Macross Frontier

i'm definitely hoping it's a mobile government. it gives an entirely new meaning to the human colonization of the galaxy. if a race or species has already done away with a earth-centric point of view, then it truly is an interstellar civilization, as opposed to an earth civilization that just happens to explore the galaxy a lot.

Edited June 30, 2008 by dreamweaver13

[Mr March]

i'm definitely hoping it's a mobile government. it gives an entirely new meaning to the human colonization of the galaxy. if a race or species has already done away with a earth-centric point of view, then it truly is an interstellar civilization, as opposed to an earth civilization that just happens to explore the galaxy a lot.

I love your way of thinking. I agree the idea of a mobile government is a very fresh idea for most tv/film style science fiction. I hope Macross Frontier explores it a bit more.

[dreamweaver13]

I love your way of thinking. I agree the idea of a mobile government is a very fresh idea for most tv/film style science fiction. I hope Macross Frontier explores it a bit more.

hey man, it was your "interstellar civilization" post that got me thinking about it in the first place, so props to you.

that being said, anyone else care to join the MACROSS (Mutual Admiration on Civilization-Related Opinions and Sentiments Society)? hehe.

[Mr March]

LOL So many societies and group now, I don't know which to choose

[dreamweaver13]

IIRC, in Macross 7, the macross7 fleet had to get proper authorization or direct orders from the UNG on earth before it was allowed to arm and use reaction weaponry. i'm guessing this failsafe is because the use of such weapons constitutes not just a battle, but an act of all-out war against another race or species. hence, a decision to use it must be made on behalf of the entire human species, and not just one particular fleet.

on the other hand, in Ep14, we have President Glass, and only president Glass, authorizing and ordering the use of reaction weaponry.

so i ask again, president of the fleet, or president of the NUNG?

[VF-25 Messiah]

IIRC, in Macross 7, the macross7 fleet had to get proper authorization or direct orders from the UNG on earth before it was allowed to arm and use reaction weaponry. i'm guessing this failsafe is because the use of such weapons constitutes not just a battle, but an act of all-out war against another race or species. hence, a decision to use it must be made on behalf of the entire human species, and not just one particular fleet.

on the other hand, in Ep14, we have President Glass, and only president Glass, authorizing and ordering the use of reaction weaponry.

so i ask again, president of the fleet, or president of the NUNG?

President Glass' greater authority is greatly contrasting to that of Max and Millia of Macross 7, where one was a mayor and leader of the civilian part, and one a supreme commander of their militairy. Howard Glass is both. He's never seen consulting anyone else except in the form of them being advisors to him, and as you pointed out he gave the permission to use Reaction weapons, something Max needed permission to do. Either there's been reforms within NUNG to allow fleets much more freedom in important decision making (The fact that Frontier even has a president shows there's been at least some reform) or he doesn't need to consult a higher power because there is none. That being said, I'm going to go with Glass being THE President, at least until the show spits out another one at us.

[Roy Focker]

I'm going with President of both but being President of the NUNG means Squat these days. From all appearances the UN Government has been decentralized with each fleet having complete control over their own army, people and resources. All loosely under the NUNs banner.

[VF-25 Messiah]

On a side note, does anyone else feel Glass is maybe just a little suspicious of Leon? I'm not saying suspecting him of treason or anything like that, but all the glares, grunts and frown's directed at him (or is it just that Glass is always frowning? )almost makes me feel he's maybe onto the fact that Leon is feeding him information, but so far has had no reason/choice but to take it in? Or maybe he just doesn't like him, but he's usefull and so decides to put up with himl? Maybe he just knows he's shacking up with his daughter and would prefer someone less slimy as a prospective son-in-law.

[RedWolf]

On a side note, does anyone else feel Glass is maybe just a little suspicious of Leon? I'm not saying suspecting him of treason or anything like that, but all the glares, grunts and frown's directed at him (or is it just that Glass is always frowning? )almost makes me feel he's maybe onto the fact that Leon is feeding him information, but so far has had no reason/choice but to take it in? Or maybe he just doesn't like him, but he's usefull and so decides to put up with himl? Maybe he just knows he's shacking up with his daughter and would prefer someone less slimy as a prospective son-in-law.

Likely he knows about the secret relationship and Leon is not the type he wants for his daughter.

Nontheless even if the events of VFX-2 had an effect of decentranlization due to distrust with UN Spacy's reliability.

There is a treaty that prohibits the use of reaction weapons as a first strike weapon.

It is illegal to even smuggle them.

One of the biggest issues in Macross 7 was fleet abandonment by Earth UN Spacy.

Indeed 3 fleets were almost lost is the region of space which the Protodevlin roamed.

This may account for the independence of fleets

Glass authorizing the use of reaction weapons without any effort to negotiate with a new species will not go well diplomaticly with the rest of the fleets and colonies. That is why he was quesy in using them.

The memory Lynn Minmay and Nekki Basara is still fresh in the minds of the people.

No doubt even Ranka Lee's effort in the memory of the former insubordinate 33rd fleet will remind them even more that as Basara would say "War is stupid".

Then again Grace O'Connor appears to be the antithesis of Basara. Spreading a song of destruction.

[dreamweaver13]

On a side note, does anyone else feel Glass is maybe just a little suspicious of Leon? I'm not saying suspecting him of treason or anything like that, but all the glares, grunts and frown's directed at him (or is it just that Glass is always frowning? )almost makes me feel he's maybe onto the fact that Leon is feeding him information, but so far has had no reason/choice but to take it in? Or maybe he just doesn't like him, but he's usefull and so decides to put up with himl? Maybe he just knows he's shacking up with his daughter and would prefer someone less slimy as a prospective son-in-law.

haha.

howard glass = jerry buss

leon = phil jackson

cathy = jeanie buss

[Gubaba]

Then again Grace O'Connor appears to be the antithesis of Basara. Spreading a song of destruction.

Grace is the Bird Human...?