Yamato 1/60 VF-11b under development

[Vic Mancini]

A link posted just a few posts up

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q222/cd...ineart-0001.jpg

shows the side view.

Doesn't really seem like it could fold into it at that size, especially considering the thing has landing gears that occupy the same (or some of the same) space.

Oh snap, you're right. I didn't see that. Hmmm...

The fins, and their relationship to the lower legs, looks different in that line art than the line art I put the arrows in.

Never the less...if that 1/60 CAD art is legit, then the tail fins look unnecessarily small to me.

[danth]

I can't find a direct side view of the line art to measure the width of the tail fins and the height of the engines, but it looks like the line art would work to me...(barely).

Assuming the fins hing at the green dot, and maybe even slide up into the leg, the actual length (blue arrow) of the fins shouldn't matter much. In theory they could be as long as the entire lower leg. It's the width (red arrow) of the fins that needs to be smaller than the height of the legs to fit. And it looks like it is, so I don't know why the length of the fins looks so unnecessarily small in the line art we're seeing.

Yep, you nailed it. If it folds down and then maybe slides in a bit, it will fit.

Oh snap, you're right. I didn't see that. Hmmm...

The fins, and their relationship to the lower legs, looks different in that line art than the line art I put the arrows in.

Really? The fin looks so skinny, and the length is not longer than the lower leg.

[David Hingtgen]

The fins fold/flip forward into the leg, not down/back. The pivot point is at the middle or rear of the base of the fin. (Yamato's first toy was wrong in that regard)

Big thing to consider--the FINS ARE CANTED OUTWARDS. Sharply. They can't fold straight down into the leg. When retracted, they must angle across, crossing from the outside of the leg to the inside. Yet still not get in the way of the gear bay inside the leg.

The fins do not sit just barely inside the outer edge of the leg, between the side of the gear bay wall and the outer wall of the leg. They fit angled, above the gear bay.

Bad rough drawing showing fins extended and retracted, and how they have to avoid the gear bay. Also, most valk toys have the gear bay taking up about 90% of the space inside the legs, so it's much worse than what I drew.

I've fiddled with photoshopping various VF-11 fin shapes into the legs, with different pivot points as well as sliding--none work that I could find. As I said--you can't use the entire interior of the legs because of the landing gear, and the fin must go in at an angle. It's a 3D problem, a simple side-view won't account for the angling of the fin or the bay inside the leg.

[Vic Mancini]

The fins fold/flip forward into the leg, not down/back. The pivot point is at the middle or rear of the base of the fin. (Yamato's first toy was wrong in that regard)

Big thing to consider--the FINS ARE CANTED OUTWARDS. Sharply. They can't fold straight down into the leg. When retracted, they must angle across, crossing from the outside of the leg to the inside. Yet still not get in the way of the gear bay inside the leg.

The fins do not sit just barely inside the outer edge of the leg, between the side of the gear bay wall and the outer wall of the leg. They fit angled, above the gear bay.

Bad rough drawing showing fins extended and retracted, and how they have to avoid the gear bay. Also, most valk toys have the gear bay taking up about 90% of the space inside the legs, so it's much worse than what I drew.

I've fiddled with photoshopping various VF-11 fin shapes into the legs, with different pivot points as well as sliding--none work that I could find. As I said--you can't use the entire interior of the legs because of the landing gear, and the fin must go in at an angle. It's a 3D problem, a simple side-view won't account for the angling of the fin or the bay inside the leg.

I assumed the fins would angle 90 degrees straight up before sliding into the legs, and only angle outwards after being extended fully. That way they'd stay against the inside wall of the leg and leave the rest for gear.

And would it matter how the fins get inside the legs? Does the transformation process have to be perfect? It's not like the VF-1 and VF-0 use the Yamato swing bar in the anime transformation.

Edit...or have flip out style hands, for that matter.

Edited September 20, 2008 by Vic Mancini

[Sumdumgai]

YF-21 style rear landing gear (wheel turns before stowing) could help make bigger vertical stabilizers, as there would be a bit more room to fit it in the leg.

I do see what David Hingtgen means though, I hadn't considered that before.

[kaiotheforsaken]

That's an interesting idea, you could have much more shallow bays which could free up more room inside the leg. Hadn't even thought of that.

[Kelsain]

The fins fold/flip forward into the leg, not down/back. The pivot point is at the middle or rear of the base of the fin. (Yamato's first toy was wrong in that regard)

Big thing to consider--the FINS ARE CANTED OUTWARDS. Sharply. They can't fold straight down into the leg. When retracted, they must angle across, crossing from the outside of the leg to the inside. Yet still not get in the way of the gear bay inside the leg.

The fins do not sit just barely inside the outer edge of the leg, between the side of the gear bay wall and the outer wall of the leg. They fit angled, above the gear bay.

Bad rough drawing showing fins extended and retracted, and how they have to avoid the gear bay. Also, most valk toys have the gear bay taking up about 90% of the space inside the legs, so it's much worse than what I drew.

I've fiddled with photoshopping various VF-11 fin shapes into the legs, with different pivot points as well as sliding--none work that I could find. As I said--you can't use the entire interior of the legs because of the landing gear, and the fin must go in at an angle. It's a 3D problem, a simple side-view won't account for the angling of the fin or the bay inside the leg.

Erm, don't they need to conserve room for the engines, too? (well, not on the toy...)

[danth]

The fins fold/flip forward into the leg, not down/back. The pivot point is at the middle or rear of the base of the fin. (Yamato's first toy was wrong in that regard)

Oh, I see. You want it to transform a certain way...the right way. I personally don't give a damn how it transforms (no parts-forming!), as long as it looks right in both modes. Hence my post about "finding a way" to make the fins fit.

Big thing to consider--the FINS ARE CANTED OUTWARDS. Sharply. They can't fold straight down into the leg. When retracted, they must angle across, crossing from the outside of the leg to the inside. Yet still not get in the way of the gear bay inside the leg.

If you've ever seen the Toynami Legioss, you know how they figured that one out. A hinge at the base of the fin allows it to be canted or vertical, so it can fold right down into the arm, still leaving room for the elbow joint and hand. And although some parts of the Toynami Legioss were prone to breakage, the tail fin hinge wasn't. So I'd consider the canted fin problem solved.

I assumed the fins would angle 90 degrees straight up before sliding into the legs, and only angle outwards after being extended fully. That way they'd stay against the inside wall of the leg and leave the rest for gear.

And would it matter how the fins get inside the legs? Does the transformation process have to be perfect? It's not like the VF-1 and VF-0 use the Yamato swing bar in the anime transformation.

Edit...or have flip out style hands, for that matter.

Yeah, exactly what I was thinking.

[Vic Mancini]

Here's another idea...

And once the fin is folded down into place, it would be on a hinge that can rotate forward/backward so that the leading and trailing edges of the fin can line up parallel to the top and bottom edges of the lower leg.

I think there are lots of ways to do this without resorting to a tiny tail fin.

[eugimon]

Here's another idea...

And once the fin is folded down into place, it would be on a hinge that can rotate forward/backward so that the leading and trailing edges of the fin can line up parallel to the top and bottom edges of the lower leg.

I think there are lots of ways to do this without resorting to a tiny tail fin.

there isn't as much space inside those legs as you might think. I've opened up the yf-19 and the vf-0 legs and they're both incredibly cramped for space.

[Chronocidal]

The idea of folding the tails down after opening the legs might work, but not that way. The tails extend past the end of the leg areas, and are taller in most pics than the legs are thick.

You know... it might complicate the mechanism a bit, but why can't the tails fold in with a combination of rotating and sliding? If the tails had a double joint to first cant inwards and then rotate/slide in, you can fit a much larger tail than with a simple pivot. This isn't done to any particular scale, so I don't know the material thicknesses you'd need for this to work, but if you bulge the legs enough, there might be plenty of space to fit the tails flat against the outer leg panels.

This is also a much more complicated mechanism than a simple rotation, so it'd probably be rather fragile this way though. The combination of two rotation axes and a sliding joint probably could have failure written all over it. Not to mention the tails might get stuck inside the legs.

Edited September 20, 2008 by Chronocidal

[vermillion01]

guys... one thing to remember is.... the more complicated moving/folding parts this has, the more things are likely to break!

[Vic Mancini]

You know... it might complicate the mechanism a bit, but why can't the tails fold in with a combination of rotating and sliding? If the tails had a double joint to first cant inwards and then rotate and slide in, you can fit a much larger tail than with a simple pivot.

This is just a quick test, and maybe not worthwhile since it's already in development.. but if the outer bulged panels of the legs are kept thick enough, and the tails have enough room to slide in... well, I think this is a plenty decent option for a large tail. I did shrink it some, but this tail is roughly 90% of the overall size of the one in the lineart posted earlier.

That's impressive!

Edited September 20, 2008 by Vic Mancini

[David Hingtgen]

::Vader:: Most impressive.

[Chronocidal]

Well.. while it looks fine in CG, I don't know how this type of joint would hold up in real life. The size of the hinges necessary would probably be about the same as the new 1/60 shoulder hinge that's become so infamous. Provided you can get the room within the leg to store the tail flat, you still need room for a sliding/rotating hinge, probably a round peg held into a track, and sandwiched within the leg. And that's before even thinking about the hinge at the tail root needed to rotate it to vertical. The root hinge would need to be as slim as possible to slide into the leg easily.

Edited September 20, 2008 by Chronocidal

[eugimon]

plus it still has to have room for the mechanics for the feet to slide out, the landing gear bays, and the supports for those things as well as the room for the knee hinge to collapse into. And it all has to be sturdy enough for people to yank on the legs during transformation.

[danth]

Damn. Nice.

This is also a much more complicated mechanism than a simple rotation, so it'd probably be rather fragile this way though. The combination of two rotation axes and a sliding joint probably could have failure written all over it. Not to mention the tails might get stuck inside the legs.

Meh, it's not really more complex than anything else in a transforming toy.

[Kicker773]

can't wait for those pictures graham... still i've yet to pick up a YF21. But I think I will most likely pick up three VF11 Thunderbolts prior to me picking up a 21.. dunno why.. i use to love the 21.. then my 19's got customized.. then i got lost somewhere. Can't wait for those pics! Perhaps i can fall in love with the Plus series again.

[thankheaven]

How about having a small hinge on the fin so that you fold it in two before sliding it in ?

Not sure how good it would look in fightermode though with the hinge there.

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

If Kawamori can retcon the size of the VF-11, he can sure as hell retcon the folding mechanism of the vertical stabilizers! Small vertical stabs SUCK! They sucked back on the original toy, and will still suck now!

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

If it's not impossible I would like to see non-canon fin transformation if it means we get normal sized fins and the final result looks better.

If it's fragile, I will just be extra careful in how I handle it.

And to those who said the yf-21 looks crap in bot mode: remember that the lineart has legs that are extremely long, and I would say that when lineart robot modes have lots of anime magick, it's unreasonable to expect lineart accuracy if you make a toy want to look nice for one mode more.

But I do agree the legs are skinny. Kinda like the skinny arms on the 1/48. Oh well maybe in future when bandai take a shot and give us the chunky munky take on the 21.. heh

Edited September 20, 2008 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[505thAirborne]

Ok here is some definite proof Yamato can maintain the proper look, dimensions & line art of the VF-11B and still have it transform properly. Not sure if anyone else posted these pictures, but here goes.

This is of the STUDIO HALF-EYE VF-11B resin kit. Fully transformable. And if you are seeing what I am seeing, Between the feet, landing gear & Tails, it can be done!!

Edited September 22, 2008 by 505thAirborne

[David Hingtgen]

Notice that the SHE has the tailfins protrude out beyond the legs, alongside the feet in battroid They don't even retract into the leg fully.

Also--the SHE has no landing gear at all. That gives the legs a lot more internal room for tailfins. (and even then they still don't fit inside)

[505thAirborne]

The tail is barely protruding out at all, and even if it did on the new Yamato, I'd rather have that, then small tail wings like the original 1/72 version.

But if the new yamato looks anything like this model, I'll be very happy!!

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

The only way is to make the tail fin hollow and have a door on one side that opens up and allows the tip to fold inside it.

Diecast hollow tailfin.

Edited September 22, 2008 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[505thAirborne]

The only way is to make the tail fin hollow and have a door on one side that opens up and allows the tip to fold inside it.

Diecast hollow tailfin.

hey 1/1 LowViz, thats actually not to bad an idea. Though one way or the other this is all speculation on how it will actually look OR function. But The tail fin definitely seems to be a prime concern of most Macross fans.

Edited September 22, 2008 by 505thAirborne

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

I'll probably have my fighter mode with fast packs on (fins retracted) for display mainly anyway. So the small tail only really half pisses me off.

If yamato can make the wings on the sv-51 hollow to allow those metal pins to act as anti-droop locks, why not try making fins hollow?

Edited September 22, 2008 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Vic Mancini]

The tail is barely protruding out at all, and even if it did on the new Yamato, I'd rather have that, then small tail wings like the original 1/72 version.

I have to agree.

I'll definitely be disappointed if the tail fins turn out to be the size of the CAD we've seen. It might even be a deal breaker for me, as I'm not that obsessive about owning every valk out there.

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

Man just have Kawamori retcon the tailfins to fold sideways, I don't care about them being exposed in battroid mode just so long as they are large in fighter mode.

[505thAirborne]

Man just have Kawamori retcon the tailfins to fold sideways, I don't care about them being exposed in battroid mode just so long as they are large in fighter mode.

Well said!!!

[danth]

The tail is barely protruding out at all, and even if it did on the new Yamato, I'd rather have that, then small tail wings like the original 1/72 version.

Agreed. There are so many ways to make it work -- telescoping tailfin, folding tailfin, whatever. It's beyond doable. What's the SHE, 1/100? If so, Yamato can do it at 1/60 (now retconned to be even bigger!), and do it with landing gear.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

I think folding fin is the best idea. Just like the folding wings on the sv-51.

Make it so that the side/back of the leg has a door that opens up, (like the perfect transformation hands with the door on the forearm mechanism on 1/48 vf-1 - which isn't really canon in the tv series anyway) the fin tip then folds to sit flush against the inside wall of the door. And when you close the door, the tip sits flat against the inside of the door.

To lock the fin so it is always straight in fighter mode: you have a rod that sits inside it just like with the sv-51 wings. But also it comes with a cover to hide the switch mechanism for when you want to pull and push the rod up or down. (similar to the covers on the wings of the sv-51 when you are not equiping the wing boosters and missiles.)

Edited September 22, 2008 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Lonely Soldier Boy]

And to those who said the yf-21 looks crap in bot mode: remember that the lineart has legs that are extremely long, and I would say that when lineart robot modes have lots of anime magick, it's unreasonable to expect lineart accuracy if you make a toy want to look nice for one mode more.

But I do agree the legs are skinny. Kinda like the skinny arms on the 1/48. Oh well maybe in future when bandai take a shot and give us the chunky munky take on the 21.. heh

What about the D-stance model? That one is PT and has great proportioned legs. Hell, even the 1/72 has better proportioned legs than the 1/60. Hence why I haven't bought one yet, despite being my favorite VF. I think Yamato could've done much better in the Battroid dept.

Edit: There are so many places where Yamato could draw inspiration to solve technical issues of their transforming mecha, but they always seem to go with their own goofy ideas. Sometimes they hit the nail, like with the hidden swing bar in the VF-1 (that was a stroke of genius), but then you have the skinny legs on the YF-21, the magnets on the Garland and most likely the small tailfins on the 11.

Edited September 23, 2008 by Lonely Soldier Boy

[Dobber]

Well said!!!

Gotta agree also, not a big deal to me if they just fold on the outside like the 19.

Chris

[eugimon]

What about the D-stance model? That one is PT and has great proportioned legs. Hell, even the 1/72 has better proportioned legs than the 1/60. Hence why I haven't bought one yet, despite being my favorite VF. I think Yamato could've done much better in the Battroid dept.

Edit: There are so many places where Yamato could draw inspiration to solve technical issues of their transforming mecha, but they always seem to go with their own goofy ideas. Sometimes they hit the nail, like with the hidden swing bar in the VF-1 (that was a stroke of genius), but then you have the skinny legs on the YF-21, the magnets on the Garland and most likely the small tailfins on the 11.

But both the D-stance and both versions of the 1/72 have fat undercarriages in order to hide the legs. Not to mention ALL the other problems the d-stance has.