Which version of Macross Plus do you prefer?

[Mr March]

Also anybody knows the instrumental music when Isamu does his "sky writing" with the YF-19 in the movie edition? For a second I though it was "Dogfight."

"Fly up to the air", track #2 on soundtrack one

[dreamweaver13]

i liked the OAV better since the flow is more natural, and there's basically more stuff in the OAV than in the movie. but my opinion sort of changes when it comes to the end parts. the way guld beats the ghost in ep 4 just doesn't do it for me, specially after having seen what he did in the movie. now that was kickass! and isamu ramming his head against the console and licking the blood off. those are movie moments that i just can't get over, which ruins the OAV ep4 for me whenever i watch it again.

so basically, i like the OAV as far as the start and the middle parts, but when it comes to the ending parts, i'm going for the movie.

[Sumdumgai]

I had to pick up all the Macross Plus soundtracks I could find to get all the music from the anime. Macross Plus For Fans Only has the cello version Voices that I was so dissapointed was not on OST 1 or 2. It also has the dogfight track and Wanna be an Angel, which was the first time I heard either of those two themes, considering that at the time I didn't even know about the movie edition!

Then there's the Sharon Apple CREAM PUFF CD that has Information High. Damn I love that scene it's used in.

There's the Macross Tribute CD that has another singer singing Voices, which I found to be very cool and refreshingly different. Plus it has the same instrumental background track than the original song, and isn't a completely different arrangement.

I'm pleased beyond words that Yoko Kanno's returned to do the music in Frontier.

What's definitely missing from the Movie Edition M+ is the VF-11B battle from OVA episode 1. While the brawl at the end of episode 2 is amusing and puts into play the whole thing about what Guld would do to get Isamu off the project, I prefer the way it was handled in the Movie Edition.

[Gubaba]

There's the Macross Tribute CD that has another singer singing Voices, which I found to be very cool and refreshingly different. Plus it has the same instrumental background track than the original song, and isn't a completely different arrangement.

That's not just another singer, that's Ishtar!

[stray]

I prefer the version I imagined before seeing episode 4 of the OAV. The one where Isamu flies to Earth to save Myung and stop Sharon from taking over. I would have liked that much better than the one where we steals a plane just because he's pissed about losing his job. And then he trashes a city. What the hell was that Kawamori-san?

There is a lot of great animation and music. But they lost me at the ending. I can suspend my disbelief for space fortresses, singing AIs, transforming planes, etc. but I just couldn't swallow Isamu doing what he did merely because the flight tests were canceled. I think I'll watch it again just to see if it makes any more sense this time.

I only vaguely remember Isamu flying to Earth, but I think that pretty much falls in line with the M.O. of one Watanabe-san. The man has come up with great, complex characters, with beautiful storylines about coming to terms with their pasts... except when it comes to the 'main' protagonist... especially with regard to their ending. Although I will give him Samurai Champloo. Spike's ending in Cowboy Bebop however was absolute, complete, unadulterated garbage... but I digress. I like Plus, don't get me wrong... it just feels like Isamu is there for the ride most of the way... and then for all intents and purposes gets the girl and saves the earth in spite of that in the end.

[Vic Mancini]

I have to vote for the OVA, but it's a close race.

I liked the pacing in the OVA far more than the movie, but I also saw the OVA first so I may be biased by that. There was just waaaay too much cut out of the middle and beginning of the movie version for my taste. Isamu already on the base when the movie starts? Taking the YF-19 for a flight before establishing the 21's power, (and Achilles heel), to the viewer in episode one with the missle evasion test and free fall incident? Condensed head to head testing scenes? ...Nah. I can't get into that. Bad pacing in my books.

I loved the English dub of the OVA too. I thought the voice acting was really good, so that was a bonus for me personally.

2 big things the movie had that the OVA didn't:

- Obviously a more satisfying sacrificial death scene for Guld.

- More Isamu character development, specifically his motivation for flying and how he's trying to reach that other world, or spiritual plane, or enlightenment, or whatever that white light is that he's chasing. Sharon Apple's motivations are a lot more clear because of this.

Edited June 10, 2008 by Vic Mancini

[DestroidDefender]

I watched the movie version and it made Isamu's motivation, his obsession really, to fly more clear. But there is still a big dramatic and narrative disconnect for me. With all the set up they do - with Sharon & Myung coming to Eden, the sleazy manager guy getting the black market chip, Yang hacking Sharon's program, the pay-off has to be the "good guys" learn about Sharon threatening Earth, right? But they don't figure it out.

Did Sharon send the message to Eden canceling the Project Super Nova to lure Isamu to Earth? Probably. But nobody seems to catch on. Isamu and Guld don't go to Earth to fight Sharon or save anybody. The go to protest the cancellation of the project. And then they blithely destroy a city.

[Fade Rathnik]

Story Wise the Movie shines. Mecha lover in me loves the OVA more, although I feel that the Movie does a better job of conveying the pure unadulterated power of the VF-19. While the 21 could meet or exceed what the 19 could do on paper the 19 could ultimately be pushed very hard to meet and exceed the 21. That and the 21 always struck me as too much of a dog fighter and less of a strike fighter given the 19s more flexible load.

IIRC Isamu went to Earth to shoot down the ghost to proof that the 19 and human pilots was a better choice. Guld just got in his way after he had gotten through planetary defenses. Smashing the city was more Guld's fault Isamu just made the mistake of chasing him into it, it was after the scene where they shoot off parts of each others fast packs. In fact Guld is the one who jumps Isamu THROUGH a building, who is the reckless one in that exchange?

So yes he went to Earth because the project was canceled, but I feel it had to do more with the higher effects of the A.I. fighter winning the competition(I.E. the replacement of human pilots).

I doubt very much that Sharon had anything directly to do with Super Nova being canceled. Though I imagine that breakthroughs in the two programs(Sharon Apple and Ghost x-9) were shared, so her completion most likely contributed to the X-9s completion. Hmm that makes me wonder if Sharon isn't the prototype for the X-9's systems. One thing that instant tactical appraisal of a situation and musical composition have in common is creative application of know assets. Yay conspiracies.

Edited June 12, 2008 by Fade Rathnik

[JB0]

Personally? I've always suspected Millard leaked the Ghost unveiling to Isamu, knowing that he wouldn't let it stand at that.

Sharon Apple is a coincidence that manages to keep Isamu out of the slammer.

[Vic Mancini]

I watched the movie version and it made Isamu's motivation, his obsession really, to fly more clear. But there is still a big dramatic and narrative disconnect for me. With all the set up they do - with Sharon & Myung coming to Eden, the sleazy manager guy getting the black market chip, Yang hacking Sharon's program, the pay-off has to be the "good guys" learn about Sharon threatening Earth, right? But they don't figure it out.

Did Sharon send the message to Eden canceling the Project Super Nova to lure Isamu to Earth? Probably. But nobody seems to catch on. Isamu and Guld don't go to Earth to fight Sharon or save anybody. The go to protest the cancellation of the project. And then they blithely destroy a city.

Myung was one of the "good guys" and she figured it out. She knew half of the dirty truth all along: How Sharon's emotions were a sham and how she was the real source. She learned the other half of the dirty truth later: The whole bio-mechanical chip / self-preservation based illegal short cut they took. Once she knew what was going on she did try to stop Sharon.

Isamu and Guld didn't know Myung was in danger when they went to Earth so you can't really blame them for putting other priorities ahead of her. They came to her rescue as soon as they found out what was happening, though.

Sure, Isamu and Guld damaged a city in the wake of their battle, but that was to communicate how intense their rivalry was. The Super Nova project was the battlegrounds for their grudge match which simmered to a boiling point on Earth. Was it wreckless?...sure. Did any civilians get hurt?...unknown. Was the city abandoned because everyone was at the Sharon Apple concert?...unknown. If so, did Isamu and Guld know this?...and is that why they casually engaged in battle inside the city because they knew nobody would be hurt?...possibly. But whatever the answers to those questions are, I don't think they detract from the narrative. I didn't feel cheated of any payoffs.

[Save]

Love the movie ending but hate the way the first half is edited together, it only makes real sense if you watched the 4 parts before the movie edition.

I usually recommend first time Plus watchers to see OVA 1, 2, 3 then get the movie version and start where 3 left off.

[dreamweaver13]

Personally? I've always suspected Millard leaked the Ghost unveiling to Isamu, knowing that he wouldn't let it stand at that.

Sharon Apple is a coincidence that manages to keep Isamu out of the slammer.

i had the same impression. a nasty manipulative bastard, that one. besides, didn't he say earlier that isamu is too easy to predict/control?

[JB0]

Love the movie ending but hate the way the first half is edited together, it only makes real sense if you watched the 4 parts before the movie edition.

I usually recommend first time Plus watchers to see OVA 1, 2, 3 then get the movie version and start where 3 left off.

Mostly, I've thought the movie flows far better.

The OVA loses me at a few key points.

The live-fire "accident" makes no sense. It's entirely too contrived, and there's simply no way it works. The story is better without it, no matter how fun the fight is. Especially as it taints a large portion of the OVA.

Isamu backing down when Guld jumps on him for not coming to Myung's rescue is totally out of character. He WAS there, even if he was late. He risked his life to get there. There's simply no way he'd let Guld crap all over him for a bit of bad traffic.

But it DOES make sense for him to back down if he was too busy banging Lucy to get out of bed. Guld's comment hurts him because he knows it's true. He's failed Myung when it really counted.

Lucy apologizing for not telling him Myung was leaving makes no sense in the OVA, as there's no real indication their relationship WENT anywhere. There's no reason for her to be TAKING his calls. Again, sex makes everything better.

The first time I saw the movie, I thought that it was how they should've done things in the first place.

Then I found out it was what they'd originally planned, and it all made sense.

[Dobber]

While I do love the OVA opening battle...gotta love the VF-11. I have to admit I really like how the movie opens. The music and the whole feel is just dangerous. Myung and "Sharon" arriving and then the yf-21 powering up is just awesome. My vote goes to the Movie. The only thing I really liked more in the OVA was that 1 battle scene and it really wouldn't fit in the movie edition if you keep it's opening....which I like.

Chris

Edited June 13, 2008 by Dobber

[DestroidDefender]

Isamu and Guld didn't know Myung was in danger when they went to Earth so you can't really blame them for putting other priorities ahead of her.

I don't blame the characters. The characters are extremely well realized. I blame the writers for giving them a contrived reason for going to Earth when there is a much a more important reason - stop Sharon.

That's my kick against Macross Plus. Almost every other aspect of the production, animation music, etc. is excellent in both OAV and movie. The story seems less forced in the movie so I guess the movie gets my vote though I miss the mecha action from the OAV.

[Mercurial Morpheus]

I like both, but i prefer the movie version hands down. It's the only version i own at the moment. I actually just saw part 4 of the OAV a few nights ago, and it reminded me how much better executed the movie was.

The movie definitely balanced the story better. It's been awhile, but i remember the OAV just stopping at times for more test sequences that only built on Isamu/Guld's rivalry, which was already well established.

Just comparing the finale, the entire ending was greatly improved. The cuts were better, the music more fitting, Sharon's control over the city and Isamu better illustrated, and of course, Guld got the death scene he deserved. That, and you don't have the "I flew like hell to save you, rekindling your own love of song and reconciling both our feeling, and well, now I just got to fly off, because like Sharon said, I sure love flying" at the end.

I remember one person being of the opinion that the ideal version would be the first three OAVs with the last 40 minutes of the movie.

It would be nice to a better copy in the US. I've stuck with my VHS for some time.

As for the dub, I never had too much of a problem with it, except Myungs talk with Sharon. They change the whole, "I don't know what you're talking about! I have no desire to kill Isamu.' to the vaguer, "Those emotions are something only in you" or something. It wasn't until I saw the sub that I ever figured out why Sharon was trying to shoot down the man she loved. That's some pretty bad dub writing in my book.

Edited June 13, 2008 by Mercurial Morpheus

[JB0]

I don't blame the characters. The characters are extremely well realized. I blame the writers for giving them a contrived reason for going to Earth when there is a much a more important reason - stop Sharon.

How would that work? No one knew Sharon was a danger except the guys behind the Ghost and the mad scientist behind Sharon. Neither one was interested in sharing.

And once Sharon went crazy, no one was in any shape to tell anyone anything. Except Myung, and she was busy trying to escape from the crazy robot.

[Vic Mancini]

I don't blame the characters. The characters are extremely well realized. I blame the writers for giving them a contrived reason for going to Earth when there is a much a more important reason - stop Sharon.

That's my kick against Macross Plus. Almost every other aspect of the production, animation music, etc. is excellent in both OAV and movie. The story seems less forced in the movie so I guess the movie gets my vote though I miss the mecha action from the OAV.

Oh, I see what you're saying.

Well the reason for Isamu and Guld going to earth didn't bother me.

Isamu loved flying more than anything else. His battle was with the X9. Stealing a prototype fighter and risking his career, and even execution, to go to Earth to prove himself against the Ghost was consistent with his character and the story arc, I think. It gave Isamu a logical reason to be in the same place at the same time as when Sharon was losing her sanity.

Guld loved hating Isamu more than anything else. His battle was with Isamu. But he was still a somewhat responsible dude, so being sent on a mission to stop the renegade YF-19 was also consistent, and sets up the final act nicely IMO.

I wouldn't call either of those motives contrived. It would be contrived if Isamu won some lottery that had nothing to do with the story and had to go to Earth in the Alpha-1 to claim his prize, and if Guld randomly decided to go on vacation to visit his Mom on Earth in the Omega-1. ...Something silly and random that had nothing to do with anything would feel manufactured and contrived. Both of Isamu and Guld's reasons for going to Earth felt fine to me, but I respect your opinion.

[Exsedol]

I like the OVA best. They left out the opening battle in the movie version and that was one of the coolest Macross battles I've seen.

[Sumdumgai]

The last 40 or so minutes of the movie definitely beats out OVA episode 4 for me hands down.

I'd have to disagree with Vic Mancini on Guld qualifying as even "somewhat responsible", just by pointing out his part in pursuing Isamu into a populated city and doing massive amounts of damage to the city. They both probably injured a lot of people, and I wouldn't be surprised if they were responsible for a lot of deaths (if any of the shot out buildings were populated, cars being stepped on, and the bus that Guld lands on). Guld spent the whole series/movie dodging responsibility for past actions while pretending to be this cool, in control, responsible guy.

Vic Mancini has excellent points. The part I bring up is a technicality.

I particularly agree that Guld's appearance of responsibility causing him to be sent on the mission to pursue and halt the Isamu in the YF-19 is consistent with his character, the storyline, and sets up the final act. In particular solving the mystery of his animosity towards Isamu, solving the mystery of what happened to cause the three to separate as friends, and brings a resolution to all the characters.

[eugimon]

I also prefer the pacing of the movie, but the final scene of the movie just kills it for me. It's so cheesey it should have come packaged with some macaroni elbows.

[Vic Mancini]

The last 40 or so minutes of the movie definitely beats out OVA episode 4 for me hands down.

I'd have to disagree with Vic Mancini on Guld qualifying as even "somewhat responsible", just by pointing out his part in pursuing Isamu into a populated city and doing massive amounts of damage to the city. They both probably injured a lot of people, and I wouldn't be surprised if they were responsible for a lot of deaths (if any of the shot out buildings were populated, cars being stepped on, and the bus that Guld lands on). Guld spent the whole series/movie dodging responsibility for past actions while pretending to be this cool, in control, responsible guy.

Vic Mancini has excellent points. The part I bring up is a technicality.

I particularly agree that Guld's appearance of responsibility causing him to be sent on the mission to pursue and halt the Isamu in the YF-19 is consistent with his character, the storyline, and sets up the final act. In particular solving the mystery of his animosity towards Isamu, solving the mystery of what happened to cause the three to separate as friends, and brings a resolution to all the characters.

Well that's why I italicized the word "somewhat" to preface the word "responsible"

You're right, he's definitely not a responsible guy. But he is more by-the-book than Isamu...or at least as you mentioned, he appears to be responsible/by-the-book, which is all I was trying to say.

[Uxi]

I definitely like the VF-11 battle versus the rogue Zentraedi power armor. I also like the opening from the movie version. I definitely like Lucy's tig 'ol bitties and that it fits the story for why Isamu didn't go help Myung better, too. I didn't think the "accident" was as well done as the friendly fire (and the battroid fight), but I can see the duplication that results and why they compressed it that way for movie edition. I like the little scenes we see of the "Monster-bane" heavy arm cannon. I think Guld's squished eyeball and compressed gut was good but thought the zig-zagging all over the place was a bit silly, though it's a much more moving ending.

The movie version is definitely more concise and flows better, so it would win in an "either/or."

Ultimately, I think the "fan-edit" or more accurately, an "Extended Edition Movie" would be best IMO. Include the VF-11/Zentraedi fight as a flashback, shortly after Isamu's arrival, perhaps. Include the battroid fight but leave out the "accident" maybe. Edit out the zig-zagging and just have a quit shot of Guld's movie "delimiter" mode, crunching gut, eye-squish and grin then KamikazeSlam! and queue the sad Myung song. Then, of course, as credits roll show the young trio all happy to evoke that sense of tragedy. And then at the end of the credits tell us what happened to Isamu and Myung and/or preview "Macross Plus 2" which has Isamu in Millar's role as they test YF-24 versus YF-26.

[grss1982]

I definitely like the VF-11 battle versus the rogue Zentraedi power armor. I also like the opening from the movie version. I definitely like Lucy's tig 'ol bitties and that it fits the story for why Isamu didn't go help Myung better, too. I didn't think the "accident" was as well done as the friendly fire (and the battroid fight), but I can see the duplication that results and why they compressed it that way for movie edition. I like the little scenes we see of the "Monster-bane" heavy arm cannon. I think Guld's squished eyeball and compressed gut was good but thought the zig-zagging all over the place was a bit silly, though it's a much more moving ending.

The movie version is definitely more concise and flows better, so it would win in an "either/or."

Ultimately, I think the "fan-edit" or more accurately, an "Extended Edition Movie" would be best IMO. Include the VF-11/Zentraedi fight as a flashback, shortly after Isamu's arrival, perhaps. Include the battroid fight but leave out the "accident" maybe. Edit out the zig-zagging and just have a quit shot of Guld's movie "delimiter" mode, crunching gut, eye-squish and grin then KamikazeSlam! and queue the sad Myung song. Then, of course, as credits roll show the young trio all happy to evoke that sense of tragedy. And then at the end of the credits tell us what happened to Isamu and Myung and/or preview "Macross Plus 2" which has Isamu in Millar's role as they test YF-24 versus YF-26.

Which will ultimately lead to the introduction of the VF-25 and the VF-27.

[Uxi]

Which will ultimately lead to the introduction of the VF-25 and the VF-27.

Exactly.

[Sumdumgai]

I didn't notice the italics, doh!

I wonder if they even tested the prototype YF-24 on Eden, and who/where the VF-171 prototypes were tested by/at.

[memphis]

Both i like it!!!!!! =)

[dreamweaver13]

I'd have to disagree with Vic Mancini on Guld qualifying as even "somewhat responsible", just by pointing out his part in pursuing Isamu into a populated city and doing massive amounts of damage to the city. They both probably injured a lot of people, and I wouldn't be surprised if they were responsible for a lot of deaths (if any of the shot out buildings were populated, cars being stepped on, and the bus that Guld lands on). Guld spent the whole series/movie dodging responsibility for past actions while pretending to be this cool, in control, responsible guy.

Vic Mancini has excellent points. The part I bring up is a technicality.

it doesn't really support or counter your position, but we had this small debate a while ago in the newbie thread as to whether that city that they were fighting in was actually populated at all. some of us had the impression that the city was not populated (maybe a ghost town or another battle practice site), so no injuries actually took place. and in that respect, both isamu and guld were downright idiots for making things personal, but maybe they knew they weren't really endangering anyone.

Edited June 18, 2008 by dreamweaver13

[JB0]

it doesn't really support or counter your position, but we had this small debate a while ago in the newbie thread as to whether that city that they were fighting in was actually populated at all.

It's interesting how many discussions start in the newbie thread.

Guess it just shows how many seemingly basic questions have rather complex answers.

[d3v]

it doesn't really support or counter your position, but we had this small debate a while ago in the newbie thread as to whether that city that they were fighting in was actually populated at all. some of us had the impression that the city was not populated (maybe a ghost town or another battle practice site), so no injuries actually took place. and in that respect, both isamu and guld were downright idiots for making things personal, but maybe they knew they weren't really endangering anyone.

Macross from that period in time seems to have a grudge against buildings. Even Basara and Millia crashed into a few buildings in Macross 7 with no one caring.

[JB0]

Macross from that period in time seems to have a grudge against buildings. Even Basara and Millia crashed into a few buildings in Macross 7 with no one caring.

Buildings cut into the sky, turning it into cages for the land-dwellers. Ask Alto.

[Gubaba]

Macross from that period in time seems to have a grudge against buildings. Even Basara and Millia crashed into a few buildings in Macross 7 with no one caring.

Macross pilots have ALWAYS had a grudge against buildings...it's all right there in "Booby Trap." And Hikaru even took out some poor schmuck who just happened to be standing NEAR a building! That's a hard-core vendetta, man!

[d3v]

Macross pilots have ALWAYS had a grudge against buildings...it's all right there in "Booby Trap." And Hikaru even took out some poor schmuck who just happened to be standing NEAR a building! That's a hard-core vendetta, man!

True, maybe someone should make a compilation of scenes where buildings get pwned "accidentally" by valks.

Edited June 18, 2008 by d3v

[DestroidDefender]

Valkyrie pwn the buildings until 2080 when the MarkI SuperSWAG Facade is developed. KER BONG = flat Valkyrie.

[d3v]

Valkyrie pwn the buildings until 2080 when the MarkI SuperSWAG Facade is developed. KER BONG = flat Valkyrie.

Only until Mk. II SuperSWAG is applied to the next gen VF/A-35J MAXL Custom with full armor parts, then the valk/building arms race starts all over again.