Newbie Questions on Macross

[azrael]

As for VF-1 vs the Ghost X-9: all fighter pilots say that success comes from pilot skill/experience, the aircraft involved, and luck. Therefore, the VF-1 beating the Ghost is as much, if not moreso, your ability (the pilot), and luck.

I seem to remember that it took much, much, much longer for the VF-1 to defeat the Ghost than the VF-22 (2 to 5 minutes, or more, of dogfighting for the VF-1, vs. less than 15 seconds for the VF-22 (that's two or three volleys of micro-missiles during the initial approach)).

Ummm, wasn't 1 of the 2 missions where you face Ghost was a training session and the 2nd time you face a Ghost, you're suppose to be flying a better fighter by then?

[sketchley]

That, too. The first mission is entirely a sim.

Mission:

01: boss (training mission)

11a: many Drones and Ghosts

12: only ghosts (boss is Toomu)

Hmm... come to think of it, the Battle 13 battle is quite similar to MF's Battle Galaxy battle...

[RDClip]

I have a question. I heard on the AWO podcast that originally Macross had a different designer for the Valkyrie other than Kawamori. Anyone know about this or have any early design sketches from this other designer?

[RedWolf]

I have a question. I heard on the AWO podcast that originally Macross had a different designer for the Valkyrie other than Kawamori. Anyone know about this or have any early design sketches from this other designer?

SDF Macross as far as I know had two mechanical designers. Shoji Kawamori and Haruhiko Mikimoto. Mikimoto designed the Zentradi mecha.

Macross was to be parody of Gundam in way but they threw that idea out.

As you can see Kawamori created then later refined the Valkyrie.

[anime52k8]

SDF Macross as far as I know had two mechanical designers. Shoji Kawamori and Haruhiko Mikimoto. Mikimoto designed the Zentradi mecha.

Macross was to be parody of Gundam in way but they threw that idea out.

As you can see Kawamori created then later refined the Valkyrie.

lol no. SDFM's mechanical designers where Shoji Kawamori and Kazutaka Miyatake. Mikimoto was the character designer.

Miyatake was responsible for the all the capital ships and the Destroids while Kawamori did the valks and the Zentradi mecha.

[RedWolf]

lol no. SDFM's mechanical designers where Shoji Kawamori and Kazutaka Miyatake. Mikimoto was the character designer.

Miyatake was responsible for the all the capital ships and the Destroids while Kawamori did the valks and the Zentradi mecha.

Slaps himself. I always mix those two up.

[Master Dex]

Awww... that's a shame. I would've liked to read it. I'm always up for an expert's opinion.

Considering the VF-25 and VF-27 are both canonically quite capable of flying themselves to the point where they burn up due to atmospheric friction (the VF-27 can compensate somewhat using its pinpoint barrier, but only temporarily), sticking those ridiculously powerful engines onto something neither aerodynamically nor structurally designed to handle them is a disaster waiting to happen. With thrust like that, and without an inertia store converter, there's a good chance of the pilot being pancaked into his chair if he opens the throttle up all the way too...

Basically, what happened to Guld's YF-21 at the end of Macross Plus, but to a slightly more extreme degree...

Maybe next time then, . Everything seems to be well squared off here. Good point too that the full thrust of even the YF-21 was enough to rip it apart. I remember seeing there were safe atmospheric values for the VF-25 and VF-27. In space this is irrelevant as long as you have the Inertial Damper thing to make the pilot not dead.

I have a bit of a science nitpick though. A lot of people keep referencing burn up due to atmospheric friction. The classic burning through the atmosphere thing is in fact not caused by friction. This is a very very common mistake as most people just aren't aware though. It is actually that the high speeds causes the craft to violently compress air in front of them, heating it up. This is what causes the red glow and the burning effect. It is true that there is friction due to air resistance, but it isn't what is causing all that heat during re-entry. This is also why the feathering gimmicks of SpaceShipOne and SpaceShipTwo negates this, it keeps the air from compressing so much by changing the craft's surface area, therefore allowing it to re-enter without as much heat. The friction is there, but it doesn't do as much in reality.

That being said, the VF-25 and VF-27 engines are pushing the craft at forces far greater than weight due to gravity, so maxing those in atmosphere is just death waiting to happen. QED.

[anime52k8]

lol no. SDFM's mechanical designers where Shoji Kawamori and Kazutaka Miyatake. Mikimoto was the character designer.

Miyatake was responsible for the all the capital ships and the Destroids while Kawamori did the valks and the Zentradi mecha.

quick correction on my part. Kawamori did SOME of the Zentradi mecha (regult, gluag and gnerl fighter pod) Miyatake did the rest. also Miyatake did most of the auxiliary vehicles.

[Einherjar]

Gubaba might be able to answer this with his work on the Macross novels, but what exactly happened in the two years between episode 26 and 27 of the original series?

[Gubaba]

Gubaba might be able to answer this with his work on the Macross novels, but what exactly happened in the two years between episode 26 and 27 of the original series?

Lots. There's a short story about it by Kawamori in Macross Perfect Memory (which I haven't gotten to yet). Someone did a translation/summary a while back, though.

Ah, here it is: http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?...st&p=338763

Be warned, though: the translations are exceedingly incomplete.

[SkullLeaderVF-X]

Does the VF-22 also have the ability to jettison it's arms and legs, like the YF-21? Also I noticed that they list two gun pods for the VF-22. The "GV-17L" and "BP-14D". What is the difference. All that I see is that one is mentioned as "cartridgeless".

[Seto Kaiba]

Does the VF-22 also have the ability to jettison it's arms and legs, like the YF-21? Also I noticed that they list two gun pods for the VF-22. The "GV-17L" and "BP-14D". What is the difference. All that I see is that one is mentioned as "cartridgeless".

As to whether or not the production-model VF-22 Sturmvogel II can jettison its arms and legs like the YF-21 No.2 could, I don't think there's been any kind of declaration either way. I would assume that it could, since the VF-22's transformation didn't change that much from the prototype's.

Now, as far as the VF-22's two models of gunpod go... calling the situation "unclear" might not do it justice. Until recently, the VF-22 was only known to have the one gunpod, the Hughes/GE GV-17L internal cartridge-less one. Presumably they meant "caseless" since the weapon appears to be a conventional Gatling cannon, since a "case" is the metallic container holding the gunpowder, bullet, and primer, and the term "cartridge" refers to the whole thing. You can read more about caseless ammunition here if you want. This second gunpod first came to light in Macross Chronicle, which identified the gunpod on Max and Milia's VF-22S's from Macross 7 as the "Howard BP-14D multipurpose gunpod". What makes it "multipurpose", I have no idea. The mechanic sheets in Macross Chronicle (Macross 7 U.N. Spacy #05A, and Macross Dynamite 7 U.N. Spacy #02A) list the BP-14D as the gunpod used on Max and Milia's VF-22S's, and the GV-17L as the gunpod carried on Gamlin's VF-22S.

EDIT: It may be noteworthy that the GV-17L carried by Guld's YF-21 No.2 makes the expected Gatling cannon noise, as does Max's BP-14D, but the GV-17L on Gamlin's VF-22S in Macross Dynamite 7 Ep4 appears to fire single shots and makes a "beam" noise instead. I can't decide whether to assume this is a screwup on the part of Chronicle, which would seem to make "BP-14D" a logical enough designation for the beam rifle Gamlin's gunpod appears to be, and having the GV-17L as a Gatling cannon like it is in Macross Plus would make a great deal of sense. However, for reasons I can't fathom, while Gamlin's gunpod is making beam notes and firing single shots, the REB-22 converging energy cannons in his VF-22's forearms inexplicably make a Gatling cannon noise instead when he fires them in Ep4.

Take it for what you will, but my guess (and I cannot emphasize enough that this is a GUESS) would be that Gamlin's gunpod is meant to be the "BP-14D" and is a beam rifle, while Max's is meant to be the production model of the GV-17L stealth Gatling cannon carried on the YF-21 No.2. It's the only way I can see to reconcile the situation.

Edited March 6, 2010 by Seto Kaiba

[SkullLeaderVF-X]

As to whether or not the production-model VF-22 Sturmvogel II can jettison its arms and legs like the YF-21 No.2 could, I don't think there's been any kind of declaration either way. I would assume that it could, since the VF-22's transformation didn't change that much from the prototype's.

Now, as far as the VF-22's two models of gunpod go... calling the situation "unclear" might not do it justice. Until recently, the VF-22 was only known to have the one gunpod, the Hughes/GE GV-17L internal cartridge-less one. Presumably they meant "caseless" since the weapon appears to be a conventional Gatling cannon, since a "case" is the metallic container holding the gunpowder, bullet, and primer, and the term "cartridge" refers to the whole thing. You can read more about caseless ammunition here if you want. This second gunpod first came to light in Macross Chronicle, which identified the gunpod on Max and Milia's VF-22S's from Macross 7 as the "Howard BP-14D multipurpose gunpod". What makes it "multipurpose", I have no idea. The mechanic sheets in Macross Chronicle (Macross 7 U.N. Spacy #05A, and Macross Dynamite 7 U.N. Spacy #02A) list the BP-14D as the gunpod used on Max and Milia's VF-22S's, and the GV-17L as the gunpod carried on Gamlin's VF-22S.

EDIT: It may be noteworthy that the GV-17L carried by Guld's YF-21 No.2 makes the expected Gatling cannon noise, as does Max's BP-14D, but the GV-17L on Gamlin's VF-22S in Macross Dynamite 7 Ep4 appears to fire single shots and makes a "beam" noise instead. I can't decide whether to assume this is a screwup on the part of Chronicle, which would seem to make "BP-14D" a logical enough designation for the beam rifle Gamlin's gunpod appears to be, and having the GV-17L as a Gatling cannon like it is in Macross Plus would make a great deal of sense. However, for reasons I can't fathom, while Gamlin's gunpod is making beam notes and firing single shots, the REB-22 converging energy cannons in his VF-22's forearms inexplicably make a Gatling cannon noise instead when he fires them in Ep4.

Take it for what you will, but my guess (and I cannot emphasize enough that this is a GUESS) would be that Gamlin's gunpod is meant to be the "BP-14D" and is a beam rifle, while Max's is meant to be the production model of the GV-17L stealth Gatling cannon carried on the YF-21 No.2. It's the only way I can see to reconcile the situation.

Thanks for the answer Seto. Another question. What would be the pro's and con's of caseless vs cased, vs beam? I always assumed that Gamlin's gunpod from D7 was just a regular gunpod and the reason the shot was different, was because of the tracer. What was the color? Red?

[Seto Kaiba]

Thanks for the answer Seto. Another question. What would be the pro's and con's of caseless vs cased, vs beam?

Well, I'm no soldier and no expert on passive stealth characteristics... but eliminating the cartridge case from the ammo equation reduces the complexity of the firing mechanism somewhat by eliminating the need to eject spent cartridge cases from the weapon, and reduces the weight and cost of the ammunition itself. I would also think that not having a cloud of spent cartridge casings trailing behind the aircraft would do a bit for the passively stealthy aspect of the plane by keeping the aircraft's radar return as small as possible. There are some significant drawbacks to caseless ammunition as well, like having residual chamber heat cook off rounds before the trigger is pulled, and sealing issues which can potentially damage the bolt. Conventional Gatling cannons like the GU-15 would not suffer from either of those drawbacks, but would have a more complex firing mechanism to eject spent cases, and would therefore carry a bit more weight for the same amount of ammunition.

It's a bit harder to quantify the advantages of beam weaponry since the technology in Macross is light years ahead of what we have here on Earth today. One would imagine that having almost no moving parts would do wonders for the unit's durability, but then you have to contend with the limitations of the internal power cell if it's an "energy beam" weapon, or the internal particle supply if it's a particle beam weapon. In the latter case, there's also the potential need for a power transfer system to actually operate the weapon, a sterling example of which can be found on the RX-79[G] Gundam ground type in Mobile Suit Gundam: 08th MS team. It's unknown if Macross's beam weapons suffer from drawbacks like thermal blooming or barrel erosion, but the former seems likely, if not the latter. Presumably the advantage would be significantly greater stopping power per shot and tighter accuracy, even if it means a much lower rate of fire.

I always assumed that Gamlin's gunpod from D7 was just a regular gunpod and the reason the shot was different, was because of the tracer. What was the color? Red?

Oddly, no... it makes a distinct "beam" sound similar to the battleship beam guns and fires bright yellow-white beams that spread out slightly after leaving the barrel. There's no background chatter to indicate multiple rounds are being fired...

[azrael]

I would also think that not having a cloud of spent cartridge casings trailing behind the aircraft would do a bit for the passively stealthy aspect of the plane by keeping the aircraft's radar return as small as possible.

For the most part, the spent casings are ejected away and would disappear rather quickly so I won't worry that much about the casings affecting stealth.

SkullLeaderVF-X, for more information, I would suggest reading up on the Heckler & Koch G11 regarding more information about caseless ammo and its modern applications (keep in mind, guns, like muskets, were caseless back in the day ).

It's unknown if Macross's beam weapons suffer from drawbacks like thermal blooming or barrel erosion, but the former seems likely, if not the latter. Presumably the advantage would be significantly greater stopping power per shot and tighter accuracy, even if it means a much lower rate of fire.

One other issue is energy consumption. Something that the VF-0's entries in the Chronicle mention is while Battroid-mode uses only a small bit of power, while energy converting armor while in Battroid consumes a a majority of the rest of the energy. So any beam weapon would have to compete with other systems for power.

But, the one overriding issue with beam weapons as primary weapons is costs.

[Seto Kaiba]

For the most part, the spent casings are ejected away and would disappear rather quickly so I won't worry that much about the casings affecting stealth.

Ah, okay... I'll have to pick the brain of someone more familiar with radar tech on that one later. I was thinking of how the small bits of metal debris from damaged aircraft will occasionally show up on radar returns, like they did in the TWA flight 800 crash, and that shell casings might cause a similar cloud of tiny returns on the more sensitive radars.

[Master Dex]

Ah, okay... I'll have to pick the brain of someone more familiar with radar tech on that one later. I was thinking of how the small bits of metal debris from damaged aircraft will occasionally show up on radar returns, like they did in the TWA flight 800 crash, and that shell casings might cause a similar cloud of tiny returns on the more sensitive radars.

It would have to be a very sensitive radar. Spent casings would scatter quite a bit even coming from a moving battroid, let alone a movie aircraft. The tiny cross sections of the casings would make for barely a ping on a radar. They are more designed to pick up the reflection of larger cross sections such as aircraft. They never go into detail on the stealth systems in Macross though. While some valkyries have what appears to be similar plan form alignment like the F-22 (you see this mostly with the VF-22) others do not seem to have this but still are regarded as stealth. While there are certain materials that could do this I have my doubts that space metal is both highly durable and stealthy at the same time. I really wish we had more info on this surreptitious material from which all valkyries are made.

[azrael]

Ah, okay... I'll have to pick the brain of someone more familiar with radar tech on that one later. I was thinking of how the small bits of metal debris from damaged aircraft will occasionally show up on radar returns, like they did in the TWA flight 800 crash, and that shell casings might cause a similar cloud of tiny returns on the more sensitive radars.

You're probably thinking about how chaff countermeasures work. Chaff, as you know, creates a large cloud of metal shards which stay in the air and flutter much longer than used brass of a gun. Spent casings would fall out in a more linear fashion, creating a thin line.

[Beltane70]

From what I've been reading, modern planes' ammo feed systems are double-ended, meaning that they feed the spent casings back into the ammo drum.

[ntsan]

SDF Macross as far as I know had two mechanical designers. Shoji Kawamori and Haruhiko Mikimoto. Mikimoto designed the Zentradi mecha.

Macross was to be parody of Gundam in way but they threw that idea out.

As you can see Kawamori created then later refined the Valkyrie.

Breast Fighters?

[Gubaba]

Breast Fighters?

Yep.

So called because they were meant to launch, not from the Prometheus, but from bays in the Macross's chest.

[dreamweaver13]

Lots. There's a short story about it by Kawamori in Macross Perfect Memory (which I haven't gotten to yet). Someone did a translation/summary a while back, though.

Ah, here it is: http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?...st&p=338763

Be warned, though: the translations are exceedingly incomplete.

Embarassing to admit, but this is the first time I heard that Hikaru was assigned to the moon for duty. I can only imagine how that must have messed with Misa's mind.

[Gubaba]

Embarassing to admit, but this is the first time I heard that Hikaru was assigned to the moon for duty. I can only imagine how that must have messed with Misa's mind.

It DOES kinda explain why they're still not a couple by episode 28.

[Bri]

Embarassing to admit, but this is the first time I heard that Hikaru was assigned to the moon for duty. I can only imagine how that must have messed with Misa's mind.

Hmm, doesn't that conflict with Hikaru being a test pilot for the VF-4 on earth during the 2010-2012 period?

[Gubaba]

Hmm, doesn't that conflict with Hikaru being a test pilot for the VF-4 on earth during the 2010-2012 period?

I don't think he was on the Moon the entire time.

[dreamweaver13]

It DOES kinda explain why they're still not a couple by episode 28.

I guess for Hikaru, it's out of sight-out of mind... unless your name happens to be Minmay.

Hmm, doesn't that conflict with Hikaru being a test pilot for the VF-4 on earth during the 2010-2012 period?

He was just in the moon for 3 months, according to the summary.

[Moly_Sigang]

It could be a possibility that he was assigned to the UN Spacy's moon base as part of the test flight for the VF-4, to gauge it's space worthiness.

Edited March 19, 2010 by Moly_Sigang

[Vepariga]

was watchin frontier episode 15 the one with the zents, what are the wings of sheryls ship made from? they just spring out and recline into nothing almost,im guessing they are made out of a similar material to the YF-21's wings that can morph.

[Seto Kaiba]

was watchin frontier episode 15 the one with the zents, what are the wings of sheryls ship made from? they just spring out and recline into nothing almost,im guessing they are made out of a similar material to the YF-21's wings that can morph.

While I don't think we can rule it out... it is entirely possible that the wings are just kept in an intermediate layer in the airframe between the crew compartment and the cargo compartment, and/or fold up upon retraction like the wings on EX-Gear.

[sketchley]

They could also be composed of the same stuff as the variable shape wings of the YF-21.

[Master Dex]

While I don't think we can rule it out... it is entirely possible that the wings are just kept in an intermediate layer in the airframe between the crew compartment and the cargo compartment, and/or fold up upon retraction like the wings on EX-Gear.

It looks to me they slide into place like you say, although the mechanism itself makes me wonder. Without being properly rooting like modern wing designs I wonder how it can handle the shear stress put on the wings. I'm sure some OTEC can account for that though (like the mysterious space metal).

Now the idea of some type of shape memory alloy like what we see with the YF-21 is certainly possible as well, just not what it looks like to me. There is a lot of real life research into materials that can make wings capable of changing shape to fit different flying conditions much like that of the YF-21.

[miles316]

It looks to me they slide into place like you say, although the mechanism itself makes me wonder. Without being properly rooting like modern wing designs I wonder how it can handle the shear stress put on the wings. I'm sure some OTEC can account for that though (like the mysterious space metal).

Now the idea of some type of shape memory alloy like what we see with the YF-21 is certainly possible as well, just not what it looks like to me. There is a lot of real life research into materials that can make wings capable of changing shape to fit different flying conditions much like that of the YF-21.

I thought the YF-21 wing still had a structure in them and it was only the outer panels that changed shape because they fold up against the lower fuselage while in Batroid mode not mysteriously disappear like the Arm blades of the T-2000 in "Terminator 2".

Edited March 21, 2010 by miles316

[Zinjo]

Keep in mind that the Galaxy Star Liner was from the Galaxy fleet. An emigration fleet reputed to be producing bleeding edge technologies. So morphing wings on a transport shuttle may not be as inconceivable as some might imagine.

Edited March 23, 2010 by Zinjo

[Master Dex]

I thought the YF-21 wing still had a structure in them and it was only the outer panels that changed shape because they fold up against the lower fuselage while in Batroid mode not mysteriously disappear like the Arm blades of the T-2000 in "Terminator 2".

The T-1000 (as it was) didn't have mysteriously disappearing blades actually. Really all that machine was was a large grouping on nanomachines which were reforming their structure to form those blades and changing their form again to reshape back. This makes the T-1000 truly the most advanced type of Terminator we've seen (despite that T-X in that abomination of a third movie) because it would require hugely incredible amounts of processing power between each nanomachine to send these commands of where to go and how to be formed together and to do all that as fast as it was shown. In fact in the novelization of T2 it is said Skynet was afraid of the thing it was creating because it couldn't completely control it and if the T-1000 decided it wanted to fight against Skynet, it had the capabilities such that it could have taken down Skynet on its own. Skynet created it as a last ditch effort since it was about to loose the war (this is all based on information from the first two movies and not related to how history was changed resulting in the events of the Third and Fourth movies).

As for Macross, the wings of the YF-21 are nothing like this. The reshaping wing concept I mentioned meant that the wings could change their shape but only to a certain degree. They would still maintain the same density, but the volume of the wings would be altered. So while the wings mass would change, nothing is really disappearing or magically appearing out of nowhere. It is just a clever reorganizing of the surface of the wing to meet different air conditions depending on speed and such. However it is never explicitly stated the YF-21 is doing this, but it looks possible.

This technology wouldn't really explain away the retracting wings of the Galaxy star liner in my opinion because the wings don't look to be changing shape, just sliding into some space in the middle of the craft. Provided the space is there, I can see that being very possible.

Keep in mind that the Galaxy Star Liner was from the Galaxy fleet. An emigration fleet reputed to be producing bleeding edge technologies. So morphing wings on a transport shuttle may not be as inconceivable as some might imagine.

Some of the most inconceivable technologies seen in many science fiction genres are not always as unlikely as they seem. It is often said in the world of physics that when someone labels some technology or idea as impossible but cannot prove the impossibility through math or science, someone else will inevitably find a way to show that idea might actually be possible. There are some impossible things according to physics, but there are more things that are possible according to those laws than most might think. Science is truly an amazing thing.

Considering Galaxy's level of technology, you can assume a lot of things from them, but I think the wings of the star liner aren't as mysterious as they seem, as I've mentioned before.

Edited March 23, 2010 by Master Dex

[sketchley]

Some of the most inconceivable technologies seen in many science fiction genres are not always as unlikely as they seem. It is often said in the world of physics that when someone labels some technology or idea as impossible but cannot prove the impossibility through math or science, someone else will inevitably find a way to show that idea might actually be possible. There are some impossible things according to physics, but there are more things that are possible according to those laws than most might think. Science is truly an amazing thing.

I second this. This past weekend I read a news article about how scientists have managed to make a 3-D object invisible to the human eye. Sure, it was only a nanometre or two wide dimple in a surface. Nevertheless, it proves the underlying principle that invisibility fields/cloaks are possible (at present, to the human eye).