Newbie Questions on Macross

[Gui]

I never said anything about canon I just meant to list the different series that had their own time frame and that comes out at seven. And it was just a idea.

[...].

I didn't say it was a bad idea, just that it doesn't work IMO

The fact that Mac 2 is listed in Macross Chronicle doesn't prove anything either by the way: Kawamori having created Mac F, it makes sense it doesn't take into account Mac 2 which is not canon from his point of view, whatever Nue says on this point...

Another explanation for this number 7 is that it has a strong spiritual sense, and spirit is the main quality of heroes/yuushas/reckless pilots/etc

Edited November 7, 2008 by Gui

[Zinjo]

Only if they have the thingymajig hairpin that Brera has on his head , which broke during the battle releasing him from her control. Its not just any implant but a specific neural interface. Brera doesn't seem to have the implant otherwise Grace would just regain control of him with or without the hairpin thing.

And even if your assumption that the whole Galaxy has been subdued by Grace, my point still stands. Its more probable that the battle took place rather than didn't.

"A" battle took place or rather "battle footage" was broadcast to Frontier. To what extent is really unknown. It's another one of Kawamori's enigmas.

We are told that Frontier was "set up" by Grace and her faction, who also controlled the Battle Galaxy. Did the Battle G provoke a fight and then beat it? Was the broadcast footage seen by Frontier real or staged for their benefit? The Frontier forces never reached the site where the Galaxy was allegedly fighting, so we simply don't know whether the battle footage was real or not...

I didn't say it was a bad idea, just that it doesn't work IMO

The fact that Mac 2 is listed in Macross Chronicle doesn't prove anything either by the way: Kawamori having created Mac F, it makes sense it doesn't take into account Mac 2 which is not canon from his point of view, whatever Nue says on this point...

Another explanation for this number 7 is that it has a strong spiritual sense, and spirit is the main quality of heroes/yuushas/reckless pilots/etc

Not sure what you are saying there dude???

Mac F wouldn't reference Mac 2 since it's outside the Nue continuity. There were a few visual and throw away homages to Mac 2, but no historical references made as with other Nue stories.

[Radd]

Er, I'd have to say it's far more reasonable to expect that the entire battle was faked. Saying that the perfectly fine Galaxy fleet shown in the recap episode was an "animation error" is stretching credibility well past the breaking point. From a storytelling standpoint, all the cues point towards the battle being fake, and a quick comparison between the badly damaged Galaxy colony ship seen in the "battle footage" compared to the same ship appearing several episodes later looking to be completely intact is pretty explicit.

[edwin3060]

This is my first post here, and I want to resolve a question that has been bugging me ever since I saw the stats for the YF-19 on Macross Compendium. I have done a search, and there seems to be two trains of thought in this forum, so I just want to clarify which is correct. The issue is the following statement:

Two 42700 kg [x g] class (maximum instantaneous thrust in atmosphere; 67500 [64700] kg [x g] class in space) Shinnakasu Industry/P&W/Roice FF-2500E thermonuclear turbine engines replacing two 56500 kg [x g] class (maximum instantaneous thrust in space) Shinsei Industry/P&W/Roice FF-2200B engines in beginning specifications. In atmosphere, the engines use air as coolant/propellant, but due to problems of cooling efficiency (caused by exceeding output and melting the core) the maximum thrust is limited to 40% to 60% of thrust in space.

--http://macross.anime.net/wiki/YF-19

One train of thought goes: Thrust in atmosphere> thrust in space because in atmosphere you have air as a coolant/propellant, and in space you only have propellant, so that the bold part of the excerpt can be paraphrased: In atmosphere, the engines use air as coolant/propellant. In space, due to problems of cooling efficiency (caused by exceeding output and melting the core) the maximum thrust is limited to 40% to 60% of thrust.

However, to me, that doesn't seem to fit with the entire statement, taking into account that:

1)Instantaneous thrust in atmosphere<Instantaneous thrust in space

2)Space propellant is effectively a coolant since propulsion is achieved by heating and expelling the propellant

Which gives rise to the second train of thought: Thrust in Space>Thrust in atmosphere since the propellant carried by the VF should (logically) be a better heat conductor and have a higher specific heat than air so the engines can work at higher temperatures. Hence the bold part of the excerpt can be paraphrased: In atmosphere, the use of air as a coolant/propellant in the engines result in problems of cooling efficiency (caused by exceeding output and melting the core), so the maximum (atmospheric) thrust is limited to 40% to 60% of (maximum) thrust in space.

The second train of thought then raises a question-- why use air at all? Given the thermonuclear reaction engines(which I assume are closed cycle), the use of air effectively gives the VF unlimited range in atmosphere which could be enough of an advantage that the space propellant is not used in the main engines, but only in the veniers.

So, if you have stayed with me through the explanation, can anyone give the final verdict on whether the 1st line of thought is right, or the 2nd line of thought is right? (Or am I wayyy out of line because this has been flogged like a dead horse?)

[Mr March]

This is a common problem and I too was once mistaken interpreting this cooling issue on the YF-19 and YF-21. It's also an unusual piece of trivia as well, since the problem of heat/cooling in the YF-19/YF-21 is never mentioned anywhere in the anime OVA or movie.

Ultimately, there's not much that can be done about clarifying this since the original text is Japanese and Egan's translation is about the best I've read. What I can do is try to explain what is being written. I'll use the YF-19 as an example.

First off, you have to watch the punctuation very carefully when reading the statistics. 42,700 kg is the maximum instantaneous thrust in the atmosphere. When the semi-colon hits, that is the start of a new fact. That new fact is that 67,500 kg is the maximum instantaneous thrust of the engines in space.

The second description says that cooling inefficiencies in atmosphere operation limits the YF-19 engines to 40%-60% of thrust in space. That means 40%-60% of the 67,500 kg of thrust (the aforementioned maximum thrust rating in space). That means the engines can only produce 27,000 kg to 40,500 kg when flying in the atmosphere, otherwise the engine core melt and you're Gulded

I hope that makes sense.

[taksraven]

Man, this place is getting technical for a "newbie" discussion thread. :lol:

Taksraven

[edwin3060]

This is a common problem and I too was once mistaken interpreting this cooling issue on the YF-19 and YF-21. It's also an unusual piece of trivia as well, since the problem of heat/cooling in the YF-19/YF-21 is never mentioned anywhere in the anime OVA or movie.

Ultimately, there's not much that can be done about clarifying this since the original text is Japanese and Egan's translation is about the best I've read. What I can do is try to explain what is being written. I'll use the YF-19 as an example.

First off, you have to watch the punctuation very carefully when reading the statistics. 42,700 kg is the maximum instantaneous thrust in the atmosphere. When the semi-colon hits, that is the start of a new fact. That new fact is that 67,500 kg is the maximum instantaneous thrust of the engines in space.

The second description says that cooling inefficiencies in atmosphere operation limits the YF-19 engines to 40%-60% of thrust in space. That means 40%-60% of the 67,500 kg of thrust (the aforementioned maximum thrust rating in space). That means the engines can only produce 27,000 kg to 40,500 kg when flying in the atmosphere, otherwise the engine core melt and you're Gulded

I hope that makes sense.

Yes it does, that was exactly what I was thinking and I got confused by some of the other threads I read. Thanks!

[Mr March]

We aim to please

[Killer Robot]

It rather strikes me that in atmosphere, any fighter of sufficient thrust is going to reach some serious cooling issues: not just with engines, but control surfaces and whatever else:just look at real theoretical hypersonic designs.. My assumption had been that the VF19/21 generation was the first to really reach that even with "modern" ECA and whatever other technologies had invented to compensate. And of course, even in space you're running into the limits of what the human pilot can take. I expect that if Macross goes further in the timeline past Frontier, the next advance we'll see is in-cockpit inertial compensators to let a human pilot get VF27+ performance, if only because I have trouble imagining Kawamori make a Macross where the heroic pilots are all cyborgs.

[Gui]

[...]

Not sure what you are saying there dude???

Mac F wouldn't reference Mac 2 since it's outside the Nue continuity. There were a few visual and throw away homages to Mac 2, but no historical references made as with other Nue stories.

Nue, Tatsunoko, Harmony Gold,... Whatever...

hobbes221 said there's 7 Macross shows (Mac 2 included in his count) and that it may be the reason why Alto's plane numbered 7. Having in mind that Kawamori doesn't acknowledge Mac2 as canon, I just replied it would be surprising. Then Mr. March quotes the Macross Chronicle which says there's indeed 7 time frames but, IMO, it doesn't demonstrate anything, for the above-mentioned reason concerning the fact that Kawamori doesn't acknowledge Mac 2 as being canon: I meant by this that it'd be surprising he takes into account Mac 2 for this number onto Alto's plane and that therefore there should be another explanation for this. That's all...

Still need aspirin?

[Sulendil Ang]

A question about a line art: http://www.new-un-spacy.com/macross7/vf-17...-legstorage.gif

What's that triangle thing in the bottom left of the picture? Is it part of the rack that holds the gunpod inside the internal leg storage of VF-17?

[sketchley]

That's the ammo clip.

[Zinjo]

Nue, Tatsunoko, Harmony Gold,... Whatever...

hobbes221 said there's 7 Macross shows (Mac 2 included in his count) and that it may be the reason why Alto's plane numbered 7. Having in mind that Kawamori doesn't acknowledge Mac2 as canon, I just replied it would be surprising. Then Mr. March quotes the Macross Chronicle which says there's indeed 7 time frames but, IMO, it doesn't demonstrate anything, for the above-mentioned reason concerning the fact that Kawamori doesn't acknowledge Mac 2 as being canon: I meant by this that it'd be surprising he takes into account Mac 2 for this number onto Alto's plane and that therefore there should be another explanation for this. That's all...

Still need aspirin?

I agree that 007 doesn't have anymore meaning than Micheal's or Luca's plane numbers. It's just a plane number as far as we know.

There are plenty of overt references to Mac 2 in Frontier, but nothing substantial that would put it as a recognized story in the Nue continuity.

[azrael]

I agree that 007 doesn't have anymore meaning than Micheal's or Luca's plane numbers. It's just a plane number as far as we know.

There are plenty of overt references to Mac 2 in Frontier, but nothing substantial that would put it as a recognized story in the Nue continuity.

IIRC, the model kits uses "SMS 007", which would seem to indicate it's just the 7th VF-25 in SMS.

[Morpheus]

Yet another newbie question from a not-so-newbie member.

What happened to the Varauta army once Basara makes them generated their own spiritia, did Gepernich release them from their mind control or they just becoming eternal slave to the protodevlin?

[Gubaba]

Yet another newbie question from a not-so-newbie member.

What happened to the Varauta army once Basara makes them generated their own spiritia, did Gepernich release them from their mind control or they just becoming eternal slave to the protodevlin?

Well, the last three Protodeviln all flew off by themselves without dragging anyone else along, so I guess they just left them on the planet.

They may have stood there looking dazed for a while, but then someone probably started playing "Planet Dance" and they were right as rain again.

[Morpheus]

Well, the last three Protodeviln all flew off by themselves without dragging anyone else along, so I guess they just left them on the planet.

They may have stood there looking dazed for a while, but then someone probably started playing "Planet Dance" and they were right as rain again.

Hmm, so the fate of the Varauta army and their fleet of heavy warships are left to the unknown then, I doubt they are covered in the novel like Mylene Beat or something like that, did Chronicles mentioned their fate?

[Gubaba]

Hmm, so the fate of the Varauta army and their fleet of heavy warships are left to the unknown then, I doubt they are covered in the novel like Mylene Beat or something like that, did Chronicles mentioned their fate?

Nothing in Mylene Beat, and nothing in Chronicles (yet, at least. But I doubt it's something they'll cover. Not when they have more important things to talk about like propaganda films produced aboard the Macross and the workings of Ranka's hair. )

[TheLoneWolf]

What happened to the Varauta army once Basara makes them generated their own spiritia, did Gepernich release them from their mind control or they just becoming eternal slave to the protodevlin?

I always assumed that they wound up free from their mind control.

When Geperuniti went out of control and began draining spiritia from friend and foe, the Varauta army was probably drained too, leaving them in a coma with everyone else. When Basara's singing became powerful enough to awaken UN Spacy, I'm going to guess that his singing also snapped the Varauta army from their coma and mind control. We don't see any hostile activity from the Varuata immediately afterwards, so one of two things must have happened: they were freed by Basara's singing, or they remained in a comatose state. If the latter occurred, then I'm sure UN Spacy revived them on their own.

Maybe Geperuniti freed them before leaving, but seeing as how he forgot to give Ivane Gyuntar back control over her own body, he probably too fixated on the future to be bothered. They were all just pawns, after all.

[RedWolf]

seeing as how he forgot to give Ivane Gyuntar back control over her own body

Its a guy. More effeminate and bishi than Bobby but a guy.

[TheLoneWolf]

Its a guy. More effeminate and bishi than Bobby but a guy.

Do you have an official reference?

I've been looking for years and found nothing.

[RedWolf]

Do you have an official reference?

I've been looking for years and found nothing.

See episodes 48 and 49. No boobs at all.

[TheLoneWolf]

See episodes 48 and 49. No boobs at all.

That's not conclusive evidence. Ivane's entire body was mutated with lots of tentacles(?) and other mutations as a result of Geperuniti losing control. The loss of traditional breasts may have been a result of untraditional mutations. Now you know why I'm looking for written evidence.

[sketchley]

TIA Macross 7 Animation Materials pg 78

"彼の(...)"

His.

Just glancing at the text, it looks like his "looks" have something to do with possession by protodevlin.

BTW, did you look it up on the Compendium first? http://macross.anime.net/wiki/Geperuniti

Edited November 12, 2008 by sketchley

[RedWolf]

In the Macross 7 Plus clip Spiritia Dreaming he already looks like trap.

As for not giving back the guys body. Gepelnitch was speaking in the second person when he took pessesion.

Which make me think Ivan Gunthar gave his body semi-willingly.

[RF-26AAC]

In the Macross 7 Plus clip Spiritia Dreaming he already looks like trap.

As for not giving back the guys body. Gepelnitch was speaking in the second person when he took pessesion.

Which make me think Ivan Gunthar gave his body semi-willingly.

I agree it almost seemed like he gave his body willingly.

To the above poster, gepelnich is 100% MAN.

He is a gloriously femmy man and you might even take him home if you were drunk enough.

HOWEVER

near the VERY end of the series, you see him with his shirt off (his upper torso) and he has a broad chest with big pecs and fairly large arms, too.

Gepelnich is a man. And I do wonder if Ivano Gunther did it on purpose. He was a shady mofo like Grace is in Frontier.

-RF-26

[TheLoneWolf]

BTW, did you look it up on the Compendium first? http://macross.anime.net/wiki/Geperuniti

Yes, I agree that Geperuniti is male because the rest of the protodeviln refer to him as male. My question is whether or not Geperuniti's human host, Ivane Gyuntar, was a female prior to possession.

TIA Macross 7 Animation Materials pg 78

"彼の(...)"

His.

Thanks for the translation! I just looked it up and you're absolutely correct. But it appears that the word "His" in TIA 7 is in reference to "Ivane Geperuniti" (post possession) and not "Ivane Gyuntar" (prior to possession), so the male reference is correct. I flipped through TIA 7 for information or lineart specifically on "Ivane Gyuntar" but couldn't find any.

[Gubaba]

That's not conclusive evidence. Ivane's entire body was mutated with lots of tentacles(?) and other mutations as a result of Geperuniti losing control. The loss of traditional breasts may have been a result of untraditional mutations. Now you know why I'm looking for written evidence.

I don't have a written reference, but in "Spirtia Dreaming," they do refer (in Japanese, not just in the subs) to Ivano as "him."

[TheLoneWolf]

I don't have a written reference, but in "Spirtia Dreaming," they do refer (in Japanese, not just in the subs) to Ivano as "him."

Well that settles it, thanks Gubaba!

Compared to Ivane Gyuntar, Alto hime looks like Arnold Schwarzenegger.

[Morpheus]

First time I saw Gerpernich in human mode, I was thinking 'cool, enemy commander is a hot lady, maybe Max could charmed her up'.

Ivano vs Alto hime? I guess no one dare to address Ivano as a girl when he turned into a protodevlin sorrounded by his zombie army. But when Alto hime went Kabuki, he will be raped by fans alike

[Keith]

All I'm saying is "child bearing hips," & the voice of Sayla. I alawys attributed the man chest as a transformation when being connected with the larger male Protodevelin host.

[Keith]

I always assumed that they wound up free from their mind control.

When Geperuniti went out of control and began draining spiritia from friend and foe, the Varauta army was probably drained too, leaving them in a coma with everyone else. When Basara's singing became powerful enough to awaken UN Spacy, I'm going to guess that his singing also snapped the Varauta army from their coma and mind control. We don't see any hostile activity from the Varuata immediately afterwards, so one of two things must have happened: they were freed by Basara's singing, or they remained in a comatose state. If the latter occurred, then I'm sure UN Spacy revived them on their own.

Maybe Geperuniti freed them before leaving, but seeing as how he forgot to give Ivane Gyuntar back control over her own body, he probably too fixated on the future to be bothered. They were all just pawns, after all.

He didn't forget to give the body back, he couldn't give the body back. It was stated in the series that extended periods of Possession lead to permanent host status. You'll note Gigil wasn't able to leave his host until the body died/

[d3v]

Besides, Gyunter looke like the type to enjoy how absolutely glam and spacy Gepernich ended up being.

[Zinjo]

You'll note Gigil wasn't able to leave his host until the body died/

I always thought he died with the body when he ate Rax...

When did he leave the body??

Which brings up the other ultra stretch of disbelief that the spiritia PD beings were capable of utilizing the EVIL series' powers from human host bodies while the actual EVIL series bodies remained in stasis....

Edited November 13, 2008 by Zinjo

[Keith]

It's actually been a few years since I've seen the series (awful subtitles scare my away from my FX sets), but I think it was Valgo (if not, then it was Gabil) that killed his human host body, at which point he took folded his EVIL body in, and kicked all kinds of ass. Point being, while he did still have a tie to the EVIL body, the bulk of his "essence" was in the human host body until it died. Assumedly, he could have also resolved the situation by doing what Gepelnitch did, in joining both bodies.

Omaega kazeni narunara....

Edited November 14, 2008 by Keith