Newbie Questions on Macross

[Valkyrie Driver]

I've been hard into Macross for about 2 years now (I really got into it after I played Robotech Battlecry on the PS2, and wanted a transforming valk) still I've got a few noob questions:

The zentradi were always supposed to have pointy ears right? they didn't in SDF:M if memory serves.

Can the head lasers on any VF point to the forward arc?

Why is Max's hair blue, and long? (The UN Spacy is a military right? I'm current military and I have to wear a high and tight, I don't see that changing, EVER!)

[Seto Kaiba]

I've been hard into Macross for about 2 years now (I really got into it after I played Robotech Battlecry on the PS2, and wanted a transforming valk) still I've got a few noob questions:

Sure thing... I'll do my best to answer your questions as completely as possible.

The zentradi were always supposed to have pointy ears right? they didn't in SDF:M if memory serves.

Huh... well, I don't think we can say that they were always intended to have pointy ears. The first time pointy ears show up on Zentradi (and Meltrandi) characters is in Macross: Do You Remember Love?, and their use was continued in subsequent Macross titles. DYRL's status in the main Macross continuity is that of an in-universe docu-drama released in 2031, but the depiction of history in the Macross shows themselves frequently uses a mixture of elements from DYRL and the original series. There are also a fair few cases of DYRL designs simply supplanting their TV series counterparts because Macross's creators like them more... sometimes they give an in-universe reason (e.g. Exsedol's appearance), and sometimes they don't.

I'd guess that Macross's creators simply decided they liked the pointy eared designs in DYRL and decided to run with it, presumably to make Zentradi and part-Zentradi characters easy to identify among the masses of human cast members when the story won't permit them to stand out by being ten meters tall.

Can the head lasers on any VF point to the forward arc?

Tricky... not all VFs have lasers or other beam weaponry mounted on the head turret (e.g. VF-4 Lightning III), and those that do don't always use them for the same purpose. After the VF-1's generation, many models of variable fighter moved the head-mounted beam weaponry onto the back of the airframe to cover the fighter's blind spot, and left the role of forward-firing gun to the fighter's gunpod (e.g. VF-11 Thunderbolt) or filled that function with a new set of fixed-forward beam guns (e.g. VF-17 Nightmare and most subsequent designs). In the case of most designs with a single center-mounted laser or beam gun (VF-5000, VF-11, VF-19A/F) it would appear that they can crank the gun forward in battroid mode to a certain extent, but not enough to get it fully horizontal. The center-mounted beam gun on the VF-25A/G seems to have enough play in its mounting to get fully horizontal. By the opposite token, the beam gun on the YF-21/VF-22's head doesn't have a pivot point at all. For the ones mounted on the sides of the head (VF-17, VF-19S, VF-25F/S), it's pretty much a given. Mind you, I'm only talking about battroid mode here... the rear-facing lasers obviously can't point forward in either fighter or GERWALK modes due to where the head sits in those modes.

Why is Max's hair blue, and long? (The UN Spacy is a military right? I'm current military and I have to wear a high and tight, I don't see that changing, EVER!)

Yes, the UN Spacy is a military... and the only real reason I can offer for Max's long blue hair is the "because it's anime". In most cases, fictional militaries tend to be a bit looser on the dress code than the real thing, and the blue hair... well, it's anime. That his hair is blue is probably part of an in-joke about the Pour le Mérite (AKA the Blauer Max in German, Germany's highest decoration for valor in WW1 and a medal notoriously awarded to the legendary ace pilot Manfred von Richthofen), or the 1966 film The Blue Max, about a pilot who sets out to win that medal after joining the German Army Air Service. There aren't many human characters in Macross with odd hair colors... the ones that get them tend to be awesome pilots though, like Maximilian Jenius (blue), Gamlin Kizaki (lilac) and Alto Saotome (blue).

[Valkyrie Driver]

Sure thing... I'll do my best to answer your questions as completely as possible.

Huh... well, I don't think we can say that they were always intended to have pointy ears. The first time pointy ears show up on Zentradi (and Meltrandi) characters is in Macross: Do You Remember Love?, and their use was continued in subsequent Macross titles. DYRL's status in the main Macross continuity is that of an in-universe docu-drama released in 2031, but the depiction of history in the Macross shows themselves frequently uses a mixture of elements from DYRL and the original series. There are also a fair few cases of DYRL designs simply supplanting their TV series counterparts because Macross's creators like them more... sometimes they give an in-universe reason (e.g. Exsedol's appearance), and sometimes they don't.

I'd guess that Macross's creators simply decided they liked the pointy eared designs in DYRL and decided to run with it, presumably to make Zentradi and part-Zentradi characters easy to identify among the masses of human cast members when the story won't permit them to stand out by being ten meters tall.

Tricky... not all VFs have lasers or other beam weaponry mounted on the head turret (e.g. VF-4 Lightning III), and those that do don't always use them for the same purpose. After the VF-1's generation, many models of variable fighter moved the head-mounted beam weaponry onto the back of the airframe to cover the fighter's blind spot, and left the role of forward-firing gun to the fighter's gunpod (e.g. VF-11 Thunderbolt) or filled that function with a new set of fixed-forward beam guns (e.g. VF-17 Nightmare and most subsequent designs). In the case of most designs with a single center-mounted laser or beam gun (VF-5000, VF-11, VF-19A/F) it would appear that they can crank the gun forward in battroid mode to a certain extent, but not enough to get it fully horizontal. The center-mounted beam gun on the VF-25A/G seems to have enough play in its mounting to get fully horizontal. By the opposite token, the beam gun on the YF-21/VF-22's head doesn't have a pivot point at all. For the ones mounted on the sides of the head (VF-17, VF-19S, VF-25F/S), it's pretty much a given. Mind you, I'm only talking about battroid mode here... the rear-facing lasers obviously can't point forward in either fighter or GERWALK modes due to where the head sits in those modes.

Yes, the UN Spacy is a military... and the only real reason I can offer for Max's long blue hair is the "because it's anime". In most cases, fictional militaries tend to be a bit looser on the dress code than the real thing, and the blue hair... well, it's anime. That his hair is blue is probably part of an in-joke about the Pour le Mérite (AKA the Blauer Max in German, Germany's highest decoration for valor in WW1 and a medal notoriously awarded to the legendary ace pilot Manfred von Richthofen), or the 1966 film The Blue Max, about a pilot who sets out to win that medal after joining the German Army Air Service. There aren't many human characters in Macross with odd hair colors... the ones that get them tend to be awesome pilots though, like Maximilian Jenius (blue), Gamlin Kizaki (lilac) and Alto Saotome (blue).

Very insightful, thanks. I never would have made a connection to the German medal, also, after I'd posted that particular question, I thought I might get a response like "how high is up?" I appreciate your time.

Edited November 28, 2010 by Valkyrie Driver

[Seto Kaiba]

Very insightful, thanks. I never would have made a connection to the German medal, also, after I'd posted that particular question, I thought I might get a response like "how high is up?" I appreciate your time.

Glad I could help... you're not alone in not making that connection. It never even occurred to me until a friend of mine (Talos) pointed out the potential connection to me about a year couple years ago. There are actually a fair few in-jokes and references in the original series that'll slip right by if you're not looking, incl. references to the original Star Trek series and Mobile Suit Gundam.

EDIT: Got corrected by Talos, lol.

Edited November 28, 2010 by Seto Kaiba

[Marzan]

Glad I could help... you're not alone in not making that connection. It never even occurred to me until a friend of mine (Talos) pointed out the potential connection to me about a year couple years ago. There are actually a fair few in-jokes and references in the original series that'll slip right by if you're not looking, incl. references to the original Star Trek series and Mobile Suit Gundam.

The Blue Max. Of course, that's a wonderful connection right there and it makes a lot of sense.

Out of the top of my head I can remember that at some point in SDFM, one can see "NCC-1701" on one of the computer screens. If I'm not mistaken that's the registry number of the original Enterprise in Star Trek.

[Seto Kaiba]

The Blue Max. Of course, that's a wonderful connection right there and it makes a lot of sense.

Yeah, it totally does... when Talos pointed it out to me, I had one of those "I can't believe I never noticed that before" moments. Max's background is listed as European too, I wonder if he's from Germany or somewhere around there.

Out of the top of my head I can remember that at some point in SDFM, one can see "NCC-1701" on one of the computer screens. If I'm not mistaken that's the registry number of the original Enterprise in Star Trek.

Yeah... there are actually a couple of Star Trek references buried in the episodes of the original Super Dimension Fortress Macross series. The one that leaps to mind most readily is in "Blind Game", where a status screen from a Star Trek computer game flashes up on the bridge... mentioning Klingons, photon torpedoes, and the Enterprise. The two most noticeable Gundam references are that the back of Misa's overhead monitor is labeled RX-78-2 (the designation of the original Gundam), and the bridge's radio callsign ("Gunsight") is the name of the fanzine published by the Gundam fanclub Kawamori, Mikimoto, and Oonogi founded at Keoi University.

[Talos]

Yeah, it totally does... when Talos pointed it out to me, I had one of those "I can't believe I never noticed that before" moments. Max's background is listed as European too, I wonder if he's from Germany or somewhere around there.

Max is a Germanic name, so I've always taken him as being from Germany. Maybe even from southern Germany (someone out there has to get why ).

Between someone called Max flying a blue plane, another in red, and then a pilot named Focker (who has a biplane no less!), I wonder how much Kawamori and co were interested in WWI.

[sketchley]

Nah. Every Macross series has some kind of character theme going on.

Ie: the gods/godlings/religious theme of Macross 7's characters. Look up Basara, Sybil (not oft rendered as such in fan translations), and Goram [goramu] and Zomd [zomudo] (which I'm of the opinion are plays on the words Sodom and Gomorrah ([sodomu] and [gomura] in Japanese.))

[Zinjo]

Max is a Germanic name, so I've always taken him as being from Germany. Maybe even from southern Germany (someone out there has to get why ).

Between someone called Max flying a blue plane, another in red, and then a pilot named Focker (who has a biplane no less!), I wonder how much Kawamori and co were interested in WWI.

I don't get the Southern Germany reference .

I always figured he was French.

- Maxmillian may have Germanic roots, but it is fairly common around Europe.

- How many Germans fall in love at first sight with someone trying to kill them?

- He's Catholic.

- He named his youngest daughter Mylene, which is a common French name

- France and Japan have always had an excellent relationship with respect to film and anime, so a French ace is a nice homage to that relationship.

[Seto Kaiba]

I don't get the Southern Germany reference .

Oh, it went right over my head too... he and I were talking on MSN at the time, and he seemed surprised that it wasn't immediately obvious. I had to browbeat him into explaining what he meant, since I originally thought he meant something to do with ace pilot Max Ritter von Müller, another Blue Max winner from Bavaria. You actually seem to have hit pretty close to the mark without realizing it, though the only way anyone would get it right off the bat would be if they knew a fair bit about religious demographics in Germany.

As I understand it, the reasoning behind his suggestion that Max might be from southern Germany is based on the size of his family... since Roman Catholicism is far and away the most popular religion around Bavaria, and the stereotype is that Roman Catholics have huge families (e.g. Monty Python's The Meaning of Life).

[Talos]

Oh, it went right over my head too... he and I were talking on MSN at the time, and he seemed surprised that it wasn't immediately obvious. I had to browbeat him into explaining what he meant, since I originally thought he meant something to do with ace pilot Max Ritter von Müller, another Blue Max winner from Bavaria. You actually seem to have hit pretty close to the mark without realizing it, though the only way anyone would get it right off the bat would be if they knew a fair bit about religious demographics in Germany.

As I understand it, the reasoning behind his suggestion that Max might be from southern Germany is based on the size of his family... since Roman Catholicism is far and away the most popular religion around Bavaria, and the stereotype is that Roman Catholics have huge families (e.g. Monty Python's The Meaning of Life).

Yep, it was a reference to the division of Catholicism and Protestantism after Martin Luther in Germany, as seen here. http://www.famitsu.com/news/201012/images/00036370/ZZgm24hfwh9tCpymHnx835vDHt8dVIBR.jpg

Now as to why I think Max is German....

*Maximilian is a German name (In French it is spelled with an e, as in Maximilien)

*The Blue Max reference

*Other Germanic names like Focker in the show

*He married the Red Baron(ess)

*The quite possible Max Mueller reference, which would go with all the other WWI references in the anime

*The Japanese germanophilia (As you can see in plenty of different anime series, for instance. If you want to sound cool and hip in a mecha anime, you throw in a random German name. I'm looking at you, Gundam SEED...)

*With the Mylene name reference, he could always be from a place like the Saarland, on the French border.

But anyway, just idle opinion of mine.

[Xx-SKULL-ONE-xX]

With all the advances in micro missles, etc, seen in Mac PLUS, why does the VF-25F not have any internal missles bays? Is this not a step backwards, at least to the level of the VF-11B?

Just something that sorta bugged me.

Yep, it was a reference to the division of Catholicism and Protestantism after Martin Luther in Germany, as seen here. http://www.famitsu.com/news/201012/images/00036370/ZZgm24hfwh9tCpymHnx835vDHt8dVIBR.jpg

Now as to why I think Max is German....

*Maximilian is a German name (In French it is spelled with an e, as in Maximilien)

*The Blue Max reference

*Other Germanic names like Focker in the show

*He married the Red Baron(ess)

*The quite possible Max Mueller reference, which would go with all the other WWI references in the anime

*The Japanese germanophilia (As you can see in plenty of different anime series, for instance. If you want to sound cool and hip in a mecha anime, you throw in a random German name. I'm looking at you, Gundam SEED...)

*With the Mylene name reference, he could always be from a place like the Saarland, on the French border.

But anyway, just idle opinion of mine.

[Seto Kaiba]

With all the advances in micro missles, etc, seen in Mac PLUS, why does the VF-25F not have any internal missles bays? Is this not a step backwards, at least to the level of the VF-11B?

Your guess is as good as mine... the only explanation I can think of to account for it is that Shoji Kawamori said he was trying to move away from the passively stealthy silhouettes of current real-world fighters. If there is an in-universe explanation for why the VF-25's airframe seems as much a throwback as it is a next-generation unit, I'm not aware of it. The logical assumption is that the extensive use of active stealth means that they just don't need to cram everything into the interior anymore to maintain stealthiness... and the various augmentation packs are certainly far more heavily armed than any internal bays could be.

[sketchley]

With all the advances in micro missles, etc, seen in Mac PLUS, why does the VF-25F not have any internal missles bays? Is this not a step backwards, at least to the level of the VF-11B?

Just something that sorta bugged me.

If I understand it correctly, it was a deliberate, creative choice by Kawamori Shouji; something about getting back to a VF-1 style hero-mecha or something.

I agree that it also seems like a step backwards. But on the other hand, if we take into consideration that emigrant fleet & planets are usually less advanced than the Earth or core Unified Government Forces equipment, and that the VF-25 is designed to operate primarily in space with Super Parts full of micro-missiles, it makes a bit more sense. I guess the other factor that shouldn't be overlooked is that the engines are literally a next generation type. They're bound to take up more internal space than the preceeding generation of thermonuclear engine; precluding the room for internal micro-missile launchers in the engine nacelles. The other major new technology introduced, the ISC equipment, most likely consumes the remaining internal space, too.

[azrael]

Your guess is as good as mine... the only explanation I can think of to account for it is that Shoji Kawamori said he was trying to move away from the passively stealthy silhouettes of current real-world fighters.

The VF-25 has active stealth so the need for a passive stealth silhouette isn't necessary. It would be nice, but it's not necessary for operation.

[Valkyrie Driver]

With all the advances in micro missles, etc, seen in Mac PLUS, why does the VF-25F not have any internal missles bays? Is this not a step backwards, at least to the level of the VF-11B?

Just something that sorta bugged me.

That bugged me about the VF-11 and the VF-25. Both seemingly lack any missile armaments (excepting FAST packs) for the majority of their respective series. I don't understand why, I mean I understand that it would be painstaking to animate missiles in every shot, even though M7 used a lot of stock footage. Even the VF-1 had missiles, though for the most part it lacked FAST packs for most of the show.

I also read on Macross Mecha Manual that the internal leg bays for the VF-11C feature in the operation stargazer segment, were never intended to be part of the design but were based on a prototype that kawamori-san did. I would like clarification please.

Also, Macross FAST packs are based in reality. The F-15C/D/E has them, it stands for Fuel And Sensor Tactical Packs. On the F-15C/D/E they consist of conformal fuel tanks along the intakes. Initially they were intended to function as sensor mounts, but this was never realized and the term was phased out of use. So on the VF's (excluding the VE-1 as it is an EW aircraft and specially equipped) do the fast packs integrate sensors or is it just a fuel upgrade and additional weapons pallets?

[Talos]

That bugged me about the VF-11 and the VF-25. Both seemingly lack any missile armaments (excepting FAST packs) for the majority of their respective series. I don't understand why, I mean I understand that it would be painstaking to animate missiles in every shot, even though M7 used a lot of stock footage. Even the VF-1 had missiles, though for the most part it lacked FAST packs for most of the show.

I also read on Macross Mecha Manual that the internal leg bays for the VF-11C feature in the operation stargazer segment, were never intended to be part of the design but were based on a prototype that kawamori-san did. I would like clarification please.

Also, Macross FAST packs are based in reality. The F-15C/D/E has them, it stands for Fuel And Sensor Tactical Packs. On the F-15C/D/E they consist of conformal fuel tanks along the intakes. Initially they were intended to function as sensor mounts, but this was never realized and the term was phased out of use. So on the VF's (excluding the VE-1 as it is an EW aircraft and specially equipped) do the fast packs integrate sensors or is it just a fuel upgrade and additional weapons pallets?

I think Seto touched on why the VF-25 doesn't have any internal missile bays. It's intended to pretty much always operate with a FAST pack setup of some sort and all of those have (in some cases /extensive/) missile armaments.

As for the VF-11, Kawamori did have internal missile bays in the legs in an earlier version of it, but they were not included in the final design. They are an animation error in the Operation Stargazer segment. However, he did put them in Mylene's custom VF-11MAXL, and I assume they are probably included in regular MAXLs too.

You're right in that the F-15's packs aren't FAST packs anymore, not since they dropped the sensors that were supposed to go in them, leaving them just CFTs. The only Cs to carry them were the ones stationed in Iceland.In the USAF, only the F-15E carries them regularly, but I believe the Israeli F-15C/D/I, as well as other Strike Eagle derivatives, all carry them as well.

They are just weapons, engines, and fuel in the VF-1. FAST pack was a new thing when Macross was being made, so they went with the catchy name.

[Valkyrie Driver]

I think Seto touched on why the VF-25 doesn't have any internal missile bays. It's intended to pretty much always operate with a FAST pack setup of some sort and all of those have (in some cases /extensive/) missile armaments.

As for the VF-11, Kawamori did have internal missile bays in the legs in an earlier version of it, but they were not included in the final design. They are an animation error in the Operation Stargazer segment. However, he did put them in Mylene's custom VF-11MAXL, and I assume they are probably included in regular MAXLs too.

You're right in that the F-15's packs aren't FAST packs anymore, not since they dropped the sensors that were supposed to go in them, leaving them just CFTs. The only Cs to carry them were the ones stationed in Iceland.In the USAF, only the F-15E carries them regularly, but I believe the Israeli F-15C/D/I, as well as other Strike Eagle derivatives, all carry them as well.

They are just weapons, engines, and fuel in the VF-1. FAST pack was a new thing when Macross was being made, so they went with the catchy name.

Another Question: I've seen some cool customs on the net, but there is something that strikes me as odd. The Macross seems to loosely mirror modern military doctrine, so in some series, why do we not see things like EW aircraft (EA-6B, EA-18G). To my recollection it was only done once in the VE-1. I saw a custom VF-1 here: VE-1AEW ALVIR SVQ-1 "Platypus" from the "Valkyries in Action".

Has Kawamori-san done anything like this in cannon?

Also I was wondering about SW-XA1 Schneeblume and SW-XAII Schneegans from the VF Experiment any info on what happened to these designs?

EDIT: The links all go to the same page, sorry.

EDIT: Fixed links

Edited December 4, 2010 by Valkyrie Driver

[Seto Kaiba]

The VF-25 has active stealth so the need for a passive stealth silhouette isn't necessary. It would be nice, but it's not necessary for operation.

Yes, I know... I said as much in my very next sentence. The point I was trying to make was that there hasn't been any official (in-universe) line that I'm aware of to explain why the VF-25 is the only fighter in the Macross Frontier series that doesn't have internal munitions storage of some kind.

That bugged me about the VF-11 and the VF-25. Both seemingly lack any missile armaments (excepting FAST packs) for the majority of their respective series. I don't understand why, I mean I understand that it would be painstaking to animate missiles in every shot, even though M7 used a lot of stock footage. Even the VF-1 had missiles, though for the most part it lacked FAST packs for most of the show.

Eh... well, we never really get to see either the VF-11 or the VF-25 operating in purely atmospheric combat in animated Macross features. The vast majority of the show's combat takes place in space, so when we do get atmospheric combat it's usually preceded by orbital insertion... which kind of rules out carrying wing-mounted ordinance. On those rare occasions, combat was either not expected (Macross Frontier "Fastest Delivery"), or they've equipped it with atmospheric-use super parts (see here and here). Just because we don't get to see VF-11s and VF-25s using wing-mounted hardpoints doesn't mean they can't take them. I don't know if we've had anything on that note for the VF-11, but the VF-25 has six underwing hardpoints... they're just not used because they get in the way of all three sets of super parts.

I also read on Macross Mecha Manual that the internal leg bays for the VF-11C feature in the operation stargazer segment, were never intended to be part of the design but were based on a prototype that kawamori-san did. I would like clarification please.

As Talos stated, the VF-11C's leg bays weren't originally part of the final design... they were included in Macross 7 episode #44 "Nightmarish Invasion" as a place for the VF-11 to store the reaction weapons they were supposed to be attacking the Protodeviln with. They never actually get a shot off with them, so it all comes to nothing.

So on the VF's (excluding the VE-1 as it is an EW aircraft and specially equipped) do the fast packs integrate sensors or is it just a fuel upgrade and additional weapons pallets?

Depends... there are one or two cases where the "FAST pack" moniker fits, though in most cases the "sensor" part seems to be absent. The available cutaways and detailed descriptions from various sources indicate that most of the time it's just fuel and weaponry. The one exception that leaps to mind is the APS-25A/MF25 armor packs for the VF-25, which do include a compound sensor antenna in addition to lots of missiles and fuel. The term "FAST pack" generally probably doesn't fit though... which is likely why they stick to more purpose-specific nomenclature like "super pack", "armored pack", "aegis pack", etc. depending on what the actual equipment is.

[Seto Kaiba]

Another Question: I've seen some cool customs on the net, but there is something that strikes me as odd. The Macross seems to loosely mirror modern military doctrine, so in some series, why do we not see things like EW aircraft (EA-6B, EA-18G).

Has Kawamori-san done anything like this in cannon?

Sure has... there are radome-equipped versions of the VF-11C, VF-17D, VF-171, and VF-25 that are presumably capable of pulling EW duty in addition to their usual recon/AEW and ELINT duties. We do briefly get to see the NUNS using RVF-171EX's conducting communications jamming to keep the Vajra from communicating data about their new weapons to the hive mind. Mind you, I don't think there's been a specialized EW unit since the VF-1's generation... the "Funny Chinese" and "ELINT Seeker" respectively.

EDIT: On the non-canon front, there are two VF-19 variants mentioned as being radome-equipped... the VEF-19D and VEF-19E.

Also I was wondering about SW-XA1 Schneeblume and SW-XAII Schneegans from the VF Experiment any info on what happened to these designs?

IIRC, VF-Experiment was just an original design series that was never meant to amount to anything. They didn't really do anything with either one, and Kawamori has said that they aren't part of the series chronology.

Edited December 4, 2010 by Seto Kaiba

[Talos]

Another Question: I've seen some cool customs on the net, but there is something that strikes me as odd. The Macross seems to loosely mirror modern military doctrine, so in some series, why do we not see things like EW aircraft (EA-6B, EA-18G). To my recollection it was only done once in the VE-1. I saw a custom VF-1 here: VE-1AEW ALVIR SVQ-1 "Platypus" from the "Valkyries in Action".

Has Kawamori-san done anything like this in cannon?

Also I was wondering about SW-XA1 Schneeblume and SW-XAII Schneegans from the VF Experiment any info on what happened to these designs?

EDIT: The links all go to the same page, sorry.

EDIT: Fixed links

I don't think I need to add anything to what Seto just said, so I'll just post up a non-canon EW design I did a while ago, based on the VA-3.

[Valkyrie Driver]

cool guys, I appreciate it.

[sketchley]

Sure has... there are radome-equipped versions of the VF-11C, VF-17D, VF-171, and VF-25 that are presumably capable of pulling EW duty in addition to their usual recon/AEW and ELINT duties. We do briefly get to see the NUNS using RVF-171EX's conducting communications jamming to keep the Vajra from communicating data about their new weapons to the hive mind. Mind you, I don't think there's been a specialized EW unit since the VF-1's generation... the "Funny Chinese" and "ELINT Seeker" respectively.

Don't forget the:

EVA-3

EC-33B Disk Sensor

ES-11D Cat's Eye

RC-4E Rabbit (nominally a rescue-type vehicle, but some recon specialized models are elluded to be in existance)

and the recon specialized Ghost fighters (QF-2200, QF-3000E & QF-4000)

Technically all of the RVF types are dedicated recon VFs (RVF-171, 171EX, 25).

Edited December 4, 2010 by sketchley

[Seto Kaiba]

Don't forget the: EVA-3 [...]

Alas... that one slipped by me. I didn't even consider the others, since I was thinking more about stuff after the Space War 1 era, but those are definitely worth noting as possible (or confirmed) electronic warfare units. I am curious... could you tell me which source mentions the recon-variant QF-3000? That's a new one on me.

Technically all of the RVF types are dedicated recon VFs (RVF-171, 171EX, 25).

Technically, yes... their designations label them as recon planes rather than dedicated craft for EW/AEW/ELINT roles. However, the official specs do say the RVF-171, RVF-171EX, and RVF-25 are capable of filling both early warning and electronic warfare roles. The Compendium articles even describe them as being early warning or electronic warfare variants rather than straight-up recon planes. In the RVF-25's case, there's even mention of specialized hardware for electronic warfare use (an AE-35 custom electronic warfare system booster unit in the avionics bay). We do get to see them used in this capacity in the series as well... the first VF-171 we see is an RVF model operating as an early warning unit, and I already mentioned the time Luca's RVF-171EX was used for electronic attack operations in my last post.

Edited December 4, 2010 by Seto Kaiba

[sketchley]

I am curious... could you tell me which source mentions the recon-variant QF-3000? That's a new one on me.

Complete with "FAST packs". (Technically the sensor balls and the fuel tanks are different).

[Seto Kaiba]

Complete with "FAST packs". (Technically the sensor balls and the fuel tanks are different).

Huh... yeah, I don't recall seeing that one before. What book/magazine is it from?

[Valkyrie Driver]

Why does everyone here want to see a VF-4 toy?

[sketchley]

Huh... yeah, I don't recall seeing that one before. What book/magazine is it from?

"Hobby Hand Book". Source of things like alternative heads for the Phalanx and line art & name of the VEFR-1.

Of course, given the revisions in Macross Chronicle (it's indicated that the ETs have been written out of the timeline and replaced by the Cheyenne), and VFMF:VF-1 (the VF-1G designation apparently having replaced VEFR-1), it's a bit of a question if the "FAST Packs" of the QF-3000E and variant Phalanx heads are still canon or not.

[Seto Kaiba]

Why does everyone here want to see a VF-4 toy?

Because the VF-4's a wicked cool design that somehow doesn't get a lot of love from the powers that be?

Personally, I not only like the design of the VF-4 in fighter mode... I love the unique and bizarre place it occupies in Macross's production history. It's the only variable fighter in Macross to have one fighter mode, but two totally different in-universe histories, names, transformations, and variant lists, both of which were created after it first debuted in fighter mode in Macross Flashback 2012. Until 1992, all we had was the fighter mode and the "VF-4" designation. Macross II's creators gave it its first transformation and a VF-1-like battroid mode, equipped it with a beam rifle and honest-to-goodness Gundam-style funnels, and dubbed it the "VF-4 Siren" for the canon game Macross: Eternal Love Song. Kawamori came back to the VF-4 and finished his version, the "VF-4 Lightning III" in 1995, and it first debuted in the 1998 main Macross continuity game Macross Digital Mission VF-X.

"Hobby Hand Book". Source of things like alternative heads for the Phalanx and line art & name of the VEFR-1.

Of course, given the revisions in Macross Chronicle (it's indicated that the ETs have been written out of the timeline and replaced by the Cheyenne), and VFMF:VF-1 (the VF-1G designation apparently having replaced VEFR-1), it's a bit of a question if the "FAST Packs" of the QF-3000E and variant Phalanx heads are still canon or not.

Interesting food for thought... thanks sketchley.

Edited December 5, 2010 by Seto Kaiba

[Talos]

Why does everyone here want to see a VF-4 toy?

Funny you should ask that...

Like Seto said, it's a cool design that has had zero love before. All we have had is a couple rare model kits (old and not very detailed), and the new 1/250th toy (which I happened to get today...).

I'm a big fan of the VF-4 fighter mode. I generally don't care about the other modes, since I'm a big aeronut. The VF-4 is a unique design, very cool, and more then meets the eye. Without carrying any weapons on hardpoints, it has the same misile armament as a loaded VF-1 (12 x AAM-1s), as well as a pair of beam cannons like the Strike Valkyrie. Then it has twice as many hardpoints as the VF-1 (8 versus 4). Finally, it has the usual pair of engines like any other Valk, plus a pair of unique scramjets for high-mach flight in atmosphere, and a pair of rockets (basically like the VF-1 FAST pack's) to give bursts of speed in any environment.

Since I got the 1/250 toy this morning, I decided to start something I've wanted to do for ages, draw the central fuselage of the VF-4 so I can do some of the modular weapons configurations (removed rocket boosters, gatling guns for CAS, etc). It's still rough and undetailed. I need to refine the shapes before I start putting detail work in, but you can get the idea.

[Gubaba]

Personally, I not only like the design of the VF-4 in fighter mode... I love the unique and bizarre place it occupies in Macross's production history. It's the only variable fighter in Macross to have one fighter mode, but two totally different in-universe histories, names, transformations, and variant lists, both of which were created after it first debuted in fighter mode in Macross Flashback 2012. Until 1992, all we had was the fighter mode and the "VF-4" designation. Macross II's creators gave it its first transformation and a VF-1-like battroid mode, equipped it with a beam rifle and honest-to-goodness Gundam-style funnels, and dubbed it the "VF-4 Siren" for the canon game Macross: Eternal Love Song. Kawamori came back to the VF-4 and finished his version, the "VF-4 Lightning III" in 1995, and it first debuted in the 1998 main Macross continuity game Macross Digital Mission VF-X.

Not true... Kawamori apparently had the design from the get-go: http://macross.anime.net/fallacies/index.html#Mecha

Fallacy: "The VF-X-4 and VF-4 are non-transformable." "The VF-4 is tranformable, but only now as a retcon."

Explanation: Although those fighters' GERWALK mode and Battroid modes were not protrayed when first shown, mecha designer Shoji Kawamori has specifically described both the VF-X-4 and VF-4 as transformable variable fighters since the begining when they were drawn (1983 and 1987 respectively). Their stated ability to transform is not a recent retcon.

Source of fallacy: Misintrepretation in Animag 11 and Mecha Press and lack of a official Kawamori-designed protrayal of the GERWALK mode and Battroid modes until recently. Animag 11 suggests that Kawamori "declines to describe" the VF-4 as transforming -- but actually, he does specifically state that it is transformable in an 1987 interview (The Super Dimension Fortress Macross:Flash Back 2012 Grafitti, p.63). Right before this statement on the VF-4, the questioner asks if the Megaroad transforms, and Kawamori laughs when he declines to say the Megaroad transform [in the video]. (He did not say the Megaroad is unable to transform.) This Megaroad statement (which appears right before the segment regarding the VF-4) is apparently how the overseas confusion began.

[Seto Kaiba]

Not true... Kawamori apparently had the design from the get-go: http://macross.anime...ndex.html#Mecha

Ugh... look, if you're going to correct me, I would really appreciate it if you made sure of your facts beforehand.

For starters, that "fallacy" explanation you quoted off the Macross Compendium doesn't say anything like what you're claiming it does. At no point does it say that Kawamori had already worked out a transformation for his VF-4 design. All it does say is that he always intended for the VF-4 to be transformable, something that should be self-evident given its designation of VF-4... rather than the SF-4 or F-4 we would expect from a plane that wasn't transformation-capable. Go back and read my post... never once do I suggest that Shoji Kawamori did not intend for the VF-4 to transform.

For two, the idea that Kawamori had the VF-4's transformation worked out from the get-go is thoroughly and completely ruled out by his own Design Works book. If you have a copy, please open it and turn to page 68. I'd like you to please tell me the date on the VF-4's transformation line art. For those of you unwilling to wait, the sketchy transformation line art is dated March 1995... as is the completed battroid mode. The complete GERWALK design sketch on page 67 is dated April of that same year. The earliest indication that he gave any thought to how the VF-4 would transform is a chibi-VF-4 sketch that looks like a VF-1 wearing goofy shoulder pads dated May 1990. The book makes no secret that the VF-4's transformation, and the final battroid mode and GERWALK mode designs were created for the 1997 videogame Macross Digital Mission VF-X... putting the finished design in the Game and Advanced Valkyrie section.

[sketchley]

For two, the idea that Kawamori had the VF-4's transformation worked out from the get-go is thoroughly and completely ruled out by his own Design Works book.

For two, look at page 66. And here's a link to a finished illo from one of those roughs released around the time of FB2012.

Now, where does it say "finished artwork design" equals "idea for transformation"?

Edited December 6, 2010 by sketchley

[Seto Kaiba]

Now, where does it say "finished artwork design" equals "idea for transformation"?

Uh... the VF-X-4 and VF-4 aren't the same plane, for one. Please also note that I'm not talking about "ideas for transformation", I'm talking about a finished design. There's no denying that he obviously toyed with ways that the VF-4 could transform... I would be rather surprised if he hadn't. However, there's also no denying that the completed VF-4 Siren appeared five years before Kawamori's completed VF-4 Lightning III ever did... and a good three years before he finalized his version of the VF-4's battroid and GERWALK modes.

You, me, and Gubaba are kind of talking past each other... you guys are raising objections to things that aren't even part of what I'm saying. I'm not talking about who had the first piece of concept art (Kawamori, duh), I'm talking about who was first to market with a finished design and an official name for the VF-4. The finished VF-4 Siren appeared in 1992's Macross: Eternal Love Song, while the finished VF-4 Lightning III didn't appear until 1997's Macross Digital Mission VF-X... this ought to be a no-brainer.

Edited December 6, 2010 by Seto Kaiba

[sketchley]

Where are you getting VF-X-4 from? The bottom half of Pg 66 is clearly the VF-4.

... and didn't I provide a linky to an image of a finished design for the VF-4 from the period of it's initial release?