Newbie Questions on Macross

[Master Dex]

I second this. This past weekend I read a news article about how scientists have managed to make a 3-D object invisible to the human eye. Sure, it was only a nanometre or two wide dimple in a surface. Nevertheless, it proves the underlying principle that invisibility fields/cloaks are possible (at present, to the human eye).

This is a subject of study that has been going on for some time. True invisibility cloaking technology will be possible within decades (though not commercially I imagine.. not sure why most people would need it). This is thanks to metamaterials. Last I heard they were able to make metamaterials that could become invisible to x-rays and doing so for visible light was a matter of further development and time. If what you say is accurate, then we are simply another step closer.

[Gubaba]

This is a subject of study that has been going on for some time. True invisibility cloaking technology will be possible within decades (though not commercially I imagine.. not sure why most people would need it).

To sneak into the girls' locker room, of course! Duh!

[reeoyuy]

Question : what is the official name for VF-19? Excalibur or Blazer Valkyrie?

[Seto Kaiba]

Question : what is the official name for VF-19? Excalibur or Blazer Valkyrie?

Excalibur.

"Blazer Valkyrie" is an unofficial nickname for it... though, to be precise, the term "Valkyrie" passed into common usage as a common name for Variable Fighters. Any VF can be referred to as a "Valkyrie" (in much the same way that "Kleenex" is now synonymous with "tissue"), though the only variable fighters actually named "Valkyrie" are the original VF-1 Valkyrie, and the Macross II continuity's VF-1R Valkyrie Kai and VF-2SS Valkyrie II.

Edited March 23, 2010 by Seto Kaiba

[hutch]

As for Macross, the wings of the YF-21 are nothing like this. The reshaping wing concept I mentioned meant that the wings could change their shape but only to a certain degree. They would still maintain the same density, but the volume of the wings would be altered. So while the wings mass would change, nothing is really disappearing or magically appearing out of nowhere. It is just a clever reorganizing of the surface of the wing to meet different air conditions depending on speed and such. However it is never explicitly stated the YF-21 is doing this, but it looks possible.

I think you've got this a tiny bit backwards. Volume would change, therefore density would change, mass would remain constant. Any change in mass would require exactly something 'disappearing or magically appearing out of nowhere'.

[reeoyuy]

Excalibur.

"Blazer Valkyrie" is an unofficial nickname for it... though, to be precise, the term "Valkyrie" passed into common usage as a common name for Variable Fighters. Any VF can be referred to as a "Valkyrie" (in much the same way that "Kleenex" is now synonymous with "tissue"), though the only variable fighters actually named "Valkyrie" are the original VF-1 Valkyrie, and the Macross II continuity's VF-1R Valkyrie Kai and VF-2SS Valkyrie II.

Ah, I see. Thanks. Wonder what 'Blazer' means; 'Fire Valkyrie' makes sense anyway.

[Vepariga]

while still on the sheryls starship wings,after watching it back and forth,it seems the wings slide out from the airbrakes as it comes thru the atmosphere,but even that is a puzzle,once its on the ground is the most confusing because thats were you see the wings just retracting back into nothing. is anything mentioned in the chronicle of this spacecraft at all?

aside from that i have another observation,how does sheryl survive in space in ep 14 she floats to alto and somehow breathes, and how does Brera control his VF-27 remotely? I know its brain wave operated like the YF-21 again,yet he can maneuver it outside of the aircraft,is the system integrated in his brain or something?

[Seto Kaiba]

Ah, I see. Thanks. Wonder what 'Blazer' means; 'Fire Valkyrie' makes sense anyway.

Your guess is as good as mine...

while still on the sheryls starship wings,after watching it back and forth,it seems the wings slide out from the airbrakes as it comes thru the atmosphere,but even that is a puzzle,once its on the ground is the most confusing because thats were you see the wings just retracting back into nothing. is anything mentioned in the chronicle of this spacecraft at all?

No, I don't think Macross Chronicle has covered it. The safest assumption is that the wings are being retracted back into the fuselage, and are likely stored in the layer between the passenger compartment and cargo compartment.

aside from that i have another observation,how does sheryl survive in space in ep 14 she floats to alto and somehow breathes, and how does Brera control his VF-27 remotely? I know its brain wave operated like the YF-21 again,yet he can maneuver it outside of the aircraft,is the system integrated in his brain or something?

You might want to consider adding context when you ask a question like this... earlier in the episode when Sheryl is shot down while operating Michael Blanc's VF-25G, she's wearing a spacesuit. If you meant later, when they're talking in the hangar... it's almost certainly a pressurized environment (unlike the flight deck itself). Insofar as Brera's VF-27, that's already been explained on the Compendium and in Chronicle, the brainwave control system links the cyborg pilot's brain directly to the controls. Presumably Brera's ability to remotely operate his VF-27 is a function derived from the same zero-time fold communications that Grace is presumably using to remotely operate the different bodies she uses in the series.

[Marzan]

I second this. This past weekend I read a news article about how scientists have managed to make a 3-D object invisible to the human eye. Sure, it was only a nanometre or two wide dimple in a surface. Nevertheless, it proves the underlying principle that invisibility fields/cloaks are possible (at present, to the human eye).

I'm sure the defense industries of more than one country are working hard on making more than one nanometre invisible!

[Master Dex]

I think you've got this a tiny bit backwards. Volume would change, therefore density would change, mass would remain constant. Any change in mass would require exactly something 'disappearing or magically appearing out of nowhere'.

Mass = Density * Volume. If the volume changes but the density remains the same, the mass will not be the same. Example, random object has density of 30 kg/m^3 and a volume of 5 m^3. The mass is 150 kg. If you change the volume but the density remains the same, lets say volume is now 7 m^3, the new mass is 210 kg.

Remember mass isn't the same as matter. I am not saying any matter in the wing is disappearing or reappearing, just the observed mass. The matter is being reorganized, but the amount of matter in the wing is always the same. If the matter isn't altered, the density has no reason to change, especially since this is a solid with which we are dealing. Fluids can change density easily, but anyone designing a wing out of gas or liquids are going to find larger troubles than what the mass is, lol.

Edited March 23, 2010 by Master Dex

[hutch]

Mass = Density * Volume. If the volume changes but the density remains the same, the mass will not be the same. Example, random object has density of 30 kg/m^3 and a volume of 5 m^3. The mass is 150 kg. If you change the volume but the density remains the same, lets say volume is now 7 m^3, the new mass is 210 kg.

Remember mass isn't the same as matter. I am not saying any matter in the wing is disappearing or reappearing, just the observed mass. The matter is being reorganized, but the amount of matter in the wing is always the same. If the matter isn't altered, the density has no reason to change, especially since this is a solid with which we are dealing. Fluids can change density easily, but anyone designing a wing out of gas or liquids are going to find larger troubles than what the mass is, lol.

If the amount of matter is the same, by definition, the mass is the same. Mass is the measurement of the amount of matter in a object/space.

I hate linking Wiki but this page sums up quite well that mass is not something that changes within a confined object without creation or removal of matter.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass

I think perhaps you're thinking of weight.

And yes, the density of an object changes readily when the volume of an object changes but the mass remains the same. If you take a cylinder of aluminum that has a given mass, and change the temperature, even by minute amounts, the density will change, because the volume of that cylinder will expand, however minutely.

[Master Dex]

If the amount of matter is the same, by definition, the mass is the same. Mass is the measurement of the amount of matter in a object/space.

I hate linking Wiki but this page sums up quite well that mass is not something that changes within a confined object without creation or removal of matter.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass

I think perhaps you're thinking of weight.

And yes, the density of an object changes readily when the volume of an object changes but the mass remains the same. If you take a cylinder of aluminum that has a given mass, and change the temperature, even by minute amounts, the density will change, because the volume of that cylinder will expand, however minutely.

I'm not thinking of weight, trust me, I'm an engineering student, I don't make those mistakes. I am not sure I am explaining the idea of the wing very well. For one, changes in temperature is another variable in this that has nothing to do with the system to which I am referring.

The wings I am referring to are in truth not all one material, so that has something to do with the confusion I bet. I think it best we end this subject now though, as I am not to interested really. Basically though it is like the wing is made of rigid bars with a skin over it (not unlike what someone else said earlier really actually, just a bit different) and the bars are on joints that can move to change the wings shape. Perhaps relating this to mass was a poor choice of words as I didn't even need to say that. I was also rather tired when I wrote that originally, been doing a lot of work so the terms and stuff probably were all jumbled in my head. Either way, the conversation is an end to itself.

Get me on the weekend, I am more conscious then, lol.

[Hyper Shinchan]

One thing that I've always been wondering are the details of the thermonuclear engine of the VFs in Macross.

In the case of UC Gundams MSs seems to use the heat of the nuclear reaction to achieve an efficient use of the propellant (this was not true for earlier MSs that used conventional chemical rockets and verniers) but I've always thought that in Macross the engines work differently, for example many VFs are said to be able to have an almost unlimited cruising range in the atmosphere.

I've found a partial explanation here under the "The Implementation of the Thermonuclear Reaction Engine" section but I still wonder how they are supposed to work in space; I suppose they have to take some kind of propellant with them (and in fact FAST packs give them additional propellant if I'm not wrong) thus making their range much more limited but I don't remember any reference of this in the series (I could be wrong since too much time passed since I've seen SDF and DYRL...).

Edited March 28, 2010 by Hyper Shinchan

[Master Dex]

One thing that I've always been wondering are the details of the thermonuclear engine of the VFs in Macross.

In the case of UC Gundams MSs seems to use the heat of the nuclear reaction to achieve an efficient use of the propellant (this was not true for earlier MSs that used conventional chemical rockets and verniers) but I've always thought that in Macross the engines work differently, for example many VFs are said to be able to have an almost unlimited cruising range in the atmosphere.

I've found a partial explanation here under the "The Implementation of the Thermonuclear Reaction Engine" section but I still wonder how they are supposed to work in space; I suppose they have to take some kind of propellant with them (and in fact FAST packs give them additional propellant if I'm not wrong) thus making their range much more limited but I don't remember any reference of this in the series (I could be wrong since too much time passed since I've seen SDF and DYRL...).

That is pretty much it actually. In atmosphere they collect air and then use the heat from the reaction engines to expand the air into plasma state (although it really is just superheated gas without an electrical charge) which is the propellant coming out the back. In space they have some propellant on board with them. It has never been explained exactly what the propellant is though.

Because the air from the atmosphere is the propellant there, they can cruise almost indefinitely in atmosphere, or at least until the nuclear engines run out of fusible material. However the OTEC reaction engines have the ability to fuse pretty much anything somehow, not just nuclear materials. So it could run a pretty long time it seems.

[Seto Kaiba]

In space they have some propellant on board with them. It has never been explained exactly what the propellant is though.

but I still wonder how they are supposed to work in space; I suppose they have to take some kind of propellant with them (and in fact FAST packs give them additional propellant if I'm not wrong) thus making their range much more limited

Okay, this is actually a question that seems to have an answer... one which has been around since the original Super Dimension Fortress Macross TV series. Among the design features mentioned as having been incorporated into the FF-2001 thermonuclear reaction turbine engines used on the VF-1 is a system identified solely as "MHD", situated at the back of the engine near the exhausts. "MHD" is the accepted shorthand form of "magnetohydrodynamic(s)", which in all likelihood is identifying that part as a plasma ion thruster. In that case, the means by which variable fighters get around during space flight is remarkably similar to Star Trek's impulse engines... just without the mass-lowering subspace field. Plasma from the thermonuclear reaction engines would be vented through the engine and accelerated using a high efficiency ion thruster with thrust-vectoring nozzles to provide propulsion and basic maneuverability in space. This would also account for the higher rate of fuel consumption in the engine, to provide enough plasma to serve as propellant, and also explain why VFs so frequently employ large boosters and additional propellant tanks for extended space operations.

(As a side note, this explanation also agrees in general terms with the explanation provided in the VF-1 Master File, in that the VF-1 uses a "rocket mode" for its engines in space, as plasma ion thrusters are technically rocket engines, though that book is not canon)

Incidentally, this system is also how the VF-1 (and likely all other VFs) gets around underwater... MHD ion engines have already been used to propel boats using no moving parts and seawater as a propellant. See this Wikipedia article for the general details.

[Master Dex]

Okay, this is actually a question that seems to have an answer... one which has been around since the original Super Dimension Fortress Macross TV series. Among the design features mentioned as having been incorporated into the FF-2001 thermonuclear reaction turbine engines used on the VF-1 is a system identified solely as "MHD", situated at the back of the engine near the exhausts. "MHD" is the accepted shorthand form of "magnetohydrodynamic(s)", which in all likelihood is identifying that part as a plasma ion thruster. In that case, the means by which variable fighters get around during space flight is remarkably similar to Star Trek's impulse engines... just without the mass-lowering subspace field. Plasma from the thermonuclear reaction engines would be vented through the engine and accelerated using a high efficiency ion thruster with thrust-vectoring nozzles to provide propulsion and basic maneuverability in space. This would also account for the higher rate of fuel consumption in the engine, to provide enough plasma to serve as propellant, and also explain why VFs so frequently employ large boosters and additional propellant tanks for extended space operations.

(As a side note, this explanation also agrees in general terms with the explanation provided in the VF-1 Master File, in that the VF-1 uses a "rocket mode" for its engines in space, as plasma ion thrusters are technically rocket engines, though that book is not canon)

Incidentally, this system is also how the VF-1 (and likely all other VFs) gets around underwater... MHD ion engines have already been used to propel boats using no moving parts and seawater as a propellant. See this Wikipedia article for the general details.

My answer was a basic idea more or less. I didn't know that method was official, though I did consider it a possibility originally. Very fascinating indeed.

[Hyper Shinchan]

Thanks to both for the explanation. Actually I would have never thought that they are using MHD maybe we should put this info (as well as a basic explanation of the thermonuclear reactors in Macross) in the Macross Compendium, what do you think about it?

[Seto Kaiba]

Thanks to both for the explanation. Actually I would have never thought that they are using MHD maybe we should put this info (as well as a basic explanation of the thermonuclear reactors in Macross) in the Macross Compendium, what do you think about it?

Well, the existence of the MHD system in the FF-2001 thermonuclear reaction turbine engine is already part of the VF-1's compendium article. Since the Compendium requires that everything be backed up by a print source of some kind, there really isn't any way for us to cover it in the other articles. The VF-1's simply the only article where the sources went into such excruciating detail. The whole atmospheric flight mode thing can be added since it comes from Great Mechanics DX (courtesy of Sketchley), but the space flight bit that I posted is informed speculation based on the information provided, which means it's technically inadmissible.

In practice, it's almost certainly the way VFs actually do get around in space (waste not, want not, you have a known quantity in the ion thruster, and a ready source of plasma, why add extra weight with a whole second set of propellant tanks), but since it isn't explicitly given in a reliable canon publication (VF-1 Master File is far out in left field because it borrows a lot from an old, long-discredited tech manual doujin that was printed around the same time DYRL came out) there's no way to include a source that explicitly says "this is how it works".

[Hyper Shinchan]

Too bad about that; I was actually thinking that being something like a "fan speculation" it could not be added but it's not easy to find information about this matter (that it's quite important for old school SF imo); well we could ask MrMarch if it's interested in adding it to the macrosspedia (if I'm not wrong in M3 unconfirmed informations are added but they are labeled in green).

EDIT: my English becomes even more poor when I'm sleepy; I hope that this post is decent enough now.

Edited March 29, 2010 by Hyper Shinchan

[Mr March]

If I were to add something like this to the M3, it would likely go in the "For Fans Only" section as another analysis-style article that is completely separated as fan speculation. Similar to the Thrust-to-Weight ratio chart and the Zentradi height articles. But going into this kind of technical analysis is really beyond my skills. I'm not an engineer or scientist, I'm trained in finance. However, if more knowledgeable fans want to write speculative scientific analysis of Macross, I would certainly make a home available for such valuable topics on the M3.

[Vostok 7]

OK I was replying to something 3 years ago, I'm dumb

Edited March 29, 2010 by Vostok 7

[akt_m]

never mind --- edit...

Edited April 1, 2010 by akt_m

[Hyper Shinchan]

I've just finished Macross 7 and I started re-watching Dynamite when I noticed this Valkyrie (well if I can call it a Valkyrie, I don't know if it can transform):

The head design looks completely different from the VT-1C featured in the anime or the DTRL VT-1 so I think it's a completely different worker type. Do you know if it was ever assigned a name and/or a model number?

[Seto Kaiba]

The head design looks completely different from the VT-1C featured in the anime or the DTRL VT-1 so I think it's a completely different worker type. Do you know if it was ever assigned a name and/or a model number?

Not that I'm aware of, sorry... I'm not aware of any line art or anything that covers it. Even the Macross Dynamite 7 portions of Macross Chronicle don't mention it. You'd think something like that would at least merit an extra report on the VT-1C page, but no such luck.

[Hyper Shinchan]

I was especially looking for infos from Macross Chronicle (I don't have the issues myself) since I've already read that many linearts appeared there for the first time after years.

Well thanks for the confirmation Seto Kaiba, I think that it's unlikely that this unit was mentioned in some other book or other publication but it wouldn't have been bad for Studio Nue to tell us at least its model number.

[Seto Kaiba]

I was especially looking for infos from Macross Chronicle (I don't have the issues myself) since I've already read that many linearts appeared there for the first time after years.

Well, there exists the slight chance that Chronicle will cover it in a future issue... right now I'm current up thru #44, and I haven't spotted any mention of it, even on the New Macross-class mechanic sheet.

[Vepariga]

If someone can rejolt my memory, how was Max somehow able to giant himself to fly the Queadluun-Rau in DYRL? the thought only just popped in my mind and i cant remember if it had a reason or not,I thought human genetics was not compatible with zent size altering chambers.

[pondo]

Frontier Spoiler!

When the battle galaxy finally shows up, what happened to all the people? Where was the fleet? Was Grace just controlling it like a ghost?

[RedWolf]

Nobody knows. Did you watch episode 15? At the end of ep 15 where Grace is talking to voices in her head Galaxy Mainland and its escorts are shown hiding within an asteroid field.

[Vepariga]

probably swarmed upon.

[vanpang]

Hopefully movie 2 would explain it.

[Gui]

Only in Robotech IIRC

In Dynamite, the father of the young zolan is also macronized

[RedWolf]

Hopefully movie 2 would explain it.

Continuity.

[RedWolf]

I've just finished Macross 7 and I started re-watching Dynamite when I noticed this Valkyrie (well if I can call it a Valkyrie, I don't know if it can transform):

The head design looks completely different from the VT-1C featured in the anime or the DTRL VT-1 so I think it's a completely different worker type. Do you know if it was ever assigned a name and/or a model number?

It wouldn't be surprise if these are customised refurbished Battroids. City 7 has customised construction Destroids.

Edited April 6, 2010 by RedWolf

[pondo]

Nobody knows. Did you watch episode 15? At the end of ep 15 where Grace is talking to voices in her head Galaxy Mainland and its escorts are shown hiding within an asteroid field.

I saw that. I guess it means that perhaps the entire colony is in on her conspiracy? Seems unlikely. But if it were true that's a HUGE arc that I would have liked to have seen. It could have been like the battlestar pegasus or something.