Newbie Questions on Macross

[Uxi]

Haven't you seen the infamous DYRL dub?

Enjoy:

ROFL, they sound like the aliens from the Star Trek pilot: The Cage.

[Zinjo]

Fixed. As I said, the SA came after the Protodeviln were sealed.

Hmmm, that statement makes one wonder who the SA really are?

Many of us have assumed they were the PD army, but that is NOT the case.

PC 2875 The network among each colonized planet disintegrates. Control of the Zentradi faction is lost and the reissuing of the prime directive "Do not interfere with Protoculture" becomes ineffective.

PC 3000 Dissolution of Stellar Republic.

Oppostion between the Supervision and Zentradi factions begins.

Could they be the remnants of the Stellar Republic Army trying to stop the uninhibited Zentradi from continuing to attack PC worlds?

If this is the case then it would explain how in 2000 years of fighting, the PC civilization is reduced to:

a small number of separated colonized planets, colonization fleets, space colony clusters [bunches], and other populations at the edge of the galaxy

It also adds weight to the idea that the Supervision Army were indeed fleets tasked with commanding the Zentradi armadas in combat. Thus made up of primarily PC microne commanders and likely Zentradi security forces (hence the need for accommodations for giants aboard the SA gunship, aka A.S.S., aka Macross).

Edited February 15, 2010 by Zinjo

[SkullLeaderVF-X]

Quick question. How do you pronunce VF-171? Is it "VF-Seventeen One" or "VF- One Seven One"? Also which one is more superior, the original non dumbed down version, or the newer mass produced ones? The older ones are older, but they seem to have better performance IMHO, then then the newer ones.

[Seto Kaiba]

Many of us have assumed they were the PD army, but that is NOT the case.

Um... what? Based on what's stated in the timeline on the Macross Compendium's timeline, there's no doubt at all that the Supervision Army was at least originally the army of brainwashed Protoculture people created by the Protodeviln. I would direct your attention to the entries for PC 2871 and PC 2872:

The Evil Series' bodies are occupied by the spiritual energy life form from the sub-universe and thus creating, from the massive fighting capability of the Evil Series and the enormous potential of the spiritial energy, beings with extraordinary fighting ability and a coveting for life energy, "Spiritia." They covet Spiritia in order to continue existing as extra-dimensional beings in this universe. They begin invading the surrounding planets and systems using spaceships and weapons of people from the scientifically advanced planet that they brainwashed. (They later become known as the Supervision Army).

Nine months after the emergence of Protodeviln, over 85% of life in the Protoculture is lost. Direct combat between the Protodeviln with their [army of] manipulated Protoculture people (Supervision Army) and the Zentradi.

Just given that information, and the sole detailed example we've seen of a Supervision Army warship (albeit a refitted one), there seems no room for doubt that the Supervision Army was in fact the Protodeviln army, and that Zentradi (likely also brainwashed) were among their forces as well. They might've adopted the name "Supervision Army" later, though the timeline suggests otherwise, but they were definitely originally the brainwashed army of the Protodeviln.

What the PC 3000 entry of "Oppostion between the Supervision and Zentradi factions begins." probably means is that the two forces were having at each other for the first time without being directed to by their respective masters.

Quick question. How do you pronunce VF-171? Is it "VF-Seventeen One" or "VF- One Seven One"? Also which one is more superior, the original non dumbed down version, or the newer mass produced ones? The older ones are older, but they seem to have better performance IMHO, then then the newer ones.

I would guess that VF-171 is supposed to be read "VF-One-Seventy-One".

According to what Macross Chronicle has had to say on the matter, the VF-171 was intended to be easier to operate than the VF-17, and that as a result of the various performance tweaks and carried-over features from the VF-17, the VF-171 had superior performance to its predecessor despite its somewhat less powerful engines.

[RedWolf]

Which still brings the question... Are they still brainwashed or not?

Currently there several mysteries in Macross.

1. The current state of the Protoculture. (With the fate of Sara Nome and Shin Kudo)

2. The fate of Megaroad-01.

3. The Supervision Army.

The other two for the sake of the mystery itself would likely not be touched upon.

Here's hoping in a future Macross production the Zentradi Army-Supervision Army war would be shown.

Though the whole point of the emmigration plan was the survival of the human race and its culture. These conflicts involving multi-million ships and mobile fortresses would be avoided like disease.

[Pizza the Hutt]

I got a couple more noob Macross thots here,

Does Hikaru and Misa have decendants in the Macross universe like Max and Millia? because I heard that nothing ever pointed to them since Flashback 2012 where Hikaru and Misa greeted Minmay on the SDF-2

I can understand keeping Max and Millia's family line in Macross because their union is the key to the Human-Zentraedi unification but I am sure that something should sooner or later come from Hikaru and Misa.

Also I wanted to ask,Do any Macross fans get "nostalgic" on the first series of SDF Macross? because I am still collecting the subbed version little by little and want to see the story difference and see if it will it keep me interested in it because I heard Macross never killed off Captain Global and Misa did not fall in love with Hikaru until further into the series.

Laters

[Seto Kaiba]

Does Hikaru and Misa have decendants in the Macross universe like Max and Millia? because I heard that nothing ever pointed to them since Flashback 2012 where Hikaru and Misa greeted Minmay on the SDF-2

Actually, yes. Hikaru and Misa had a daughter (Miku Ichijyo) who was board aboard the Megaroad-01 in 2013. Since all communication with the ship was lost in 2016, it's not known if they had any other children.

Also I wanted to ask,Do any Macross fans get "nostalgic" on the first series of SDF Macross? because I am still collecting the subbed version little by little and want to see the story difference and see if it will it keep me interested in it because I heard Macross never killed off Captain Global and Misa did not fall in love with Hikaru until further into the series.

I know I sure as hell do.

And you're right... Macross doesn't kill off Bruno Global, he and the rest of the Macross's bridge crew do survive that kamikaze attack of Kamjin's... Captain/Admiral Global goes on to become a U.N. Representative, you know Misa becomes captain of the Megaroad-01, and the fates of the rest of the crew are revealed in the Macross 7 Docking Festival CD... if memory serves Kim Kabirov stayed in the U.N. Spacy and was living on Eden, Shammy Milliome had like eleven kids and was living on the moon, and Vanessa Laird was living on Earth with the lolicon trio. For the record, Exsedol Folmo went on to become an adviser to the 37th Colony Fleet (Macross-7), which was commanded by Max Jenius, with his wife Milia as mayor, and Vrlitwhai went on to become commander of the U.N. Spacy.

Edited February 15, 2010 by Seto Kaiba

[RedWolf]

And you're right... Macross doesn't kill off Bruno Global, he and the rest of the Macross's bridge crew do survive that kamikaze attack of Kamjin's... Captain/Admiral Global goes on to become a U.N. Representative, you know Misa becomes captain of the Megaroad-01, and the fates of the rest of the crew are revealed in the Macross 7 Docking Festival CD... if memory serves Kim Kabirov stayed in the U.N. Spacy and was living on Eden, Shammy Milliome had like eleven kids and was living on the moon, and Vanessa Laird was living on Earth with the lolicon trio. For the record, Exsedol Folmo went on to become an adviser to the 37th Colony Fleet (Macross-7), which was commanded by Max Jenius, with his wife Milia as mayor, and Vrlitwhai went on to become commander of the U.N. Spacy.

As of 2059 Lt. Gen. Kim Kabirov is the commander of the Earth defense fleet Macross 13 during Grace's brief invasion of everywhere using the Vajra. By everywhere I mean every NUN planet like Earth and Eden to the farthest emmigration fleets such as Macross 11 (Where Kaifun lives) which is around the galactic rim. Grace controlled the Vajra fleets right at the Vajra homeworld which is located at the galactic core region.

[Marzan]

As of 2059 Lt. Gen. Kim Kabirov is the commander of the Earth defense fleet Macross 13 during Grace's brief invasion of everywhere using the Vajra. By everywhere I mean every NUN planet like Earth and Eden to the farthest emmigration fleets such as Macross 11 (Where Kaifun lives) which is around the galactic rim. Grace controlled the Vajra fleets right at the Vajra homeworld which is located at the galactic core region.

Why o why is an a**hole like Kaifun still alive in 2059?!

[Seto Kaiba]

Why o why is an a**hole like Kaifun still alive in 2059?!

The words "too stupid to die" come to mind... though one would imagine some kind soul would've taken it upon themselves to give natural selection a helping hand by removing Kaifun from the gene pool. Still, I guess he's probably still alive due in no small measure to latching onto some band or another (incl. Fire Bomber American) to keep himself fed.

[RedWolf]

Hopefully Kaifun's genes aren't part of the cloning repopulation program.

[miles316]

Actually, yes. Hikaru and Misa had a daughter (Miku Ichijyo) who was board aboard the Megaroad-01 in 2013. Since all communication with the ship was lost in 2016, it's not known if they had any other children.

I know I sure as hell do.

And you're right... Macross doesn't kill off Bruno Global, he and the rest of the Macross's bridge crew do survive that kamikaze attack of Kamjin's... Captain/Admiral Global goes on to become a U.N. Representative, you know Misa becomes captain of the Megaroad-01, and the fates of the rest of the crew are revealed in the Macross 7 Docking Festival CD... if memory serves Kim Kabirov stayed in the U.N. Spacy and was living on Eden, Shammy Milliome had like eleven kids and was living on the moon, and Vanessa Laird was living on Earth with the lolicon trio. For the record, Exsedol Folmo went on to become an adviser to the 37th Colony Fleet (Macross-7), which was commanded by Max Jenius, with his wife Milia as mayor, and Vrlitwhai went on to become commander of the U.N. Spacy.

What happened to LaSall and Britai I know I may not have spelled their names right?

Did Max and Milia actually get divorced or just separated?

Edited February 15, 2010 by miles316

[Saraphys]

What happened to LaSall and Britai I know I may not have spelled their names right?

...ummm... last line of the quote from your post...

and Vrlitwhai went on to become commander of the U.N. Spacy

[Uxi]

Looks like Macross 23 (I think) left Eden in the general direction that Megaroad 1 went. Either one could have turned though, like Megaroad 4 before getting to New Eden, off of the map we saw in MacF...

Edited February 15, 2010 by Uxi

[RedWolf]

What happened to LaSall and Britai I know I may not have spelled their names right?

Did Max and Milia actually get divorced or just separated?

Officially Vrlitwhai became UN Spacy supreme commander in 2016. Interestingly there is a contradiction in the VF-1 Master Files. According to VF-1 Master Files Vrlitwhai became the commander of the Megaroad-02.

Alternatively in the DYRL-Macross II timeline Vrlitwhai was the UN Spacy supreme commander in the PC Engine games Macross 2036 and Macross Eternal Love Song. Fending off fleets that Quamzin brought home.

Max and Millia separated briefly due to job presures. Max was the military leader while Millia was the mayor/president of Macross 7. They got back together by the end of Macross 7. Though demonstrating ahem... Culture to the Chlore Meltran fleet may have helped. After all these year both are hot for each other. Max and Millia had seven children and one adopted naturally born Zentradi daughter. (They shot her down, micloned her, and brought her home )

Note that Macross 7's government is different from Macross Frontier. Where military and civilian leadership have equal authority.

Oh in the DYRL-Macross II timeline Max and Millia had Komilia much later, 2019 instead of 2011. Komilia was the protagonist in Macross 2036. She calls Vrlitwhai uncle.

Edited February 16, 2010 by RedWolf

[Gubaba]

Officially Vrlitwhai became UN Spacy supreme commander in 2016. Interestingly there is a contradiction in the VF-1 Master Files. According to VF-1 Master Files Vrlitwhai became the commander of the Megaroad-02.

I don't think that's right. It says that the Megaroad-02 is Britai's original ship. It doesn't say that he commands it.

[Zinjo]

Um... what? Based on what's stated in the timeline on the Macross Compendium's timeline, there's no doubt at all that the Supervision Army was at least originally the army of brainwashed Protoculture people created by the Protodeviln. I would direct your attention to the entries for PC 2871 and PC 2872:

Yep I stand corrected, on my initial correction....

[Seto Kaiba]

Officially Vrlitwhai became UN Spacy supreme commander in 2016. Interestingly there is a contradiction in the VF-1 Master Files. According to VF-1 Master Files Vrlitwhai became the commander of the Megaroad-02.

's no mystery there... the VF-1 Master File is basically a rehash of the old MAT Book (Sky Angels tech manual), with a LOT of non-canon material lifted right from the MAT book and printed again in the Master File. Nothing in it should be taken as even remotely accurate unless independently confirmed in more reliable publications. Recall that this is the same book which lists the VF-1 as having a top speed in excess of Mach 7, and attributes several ARMDs to ships that were never built (SDF-2 Megalord, etc.).

(To date, only one of the new pieces of information from the old MAT book and new Master File has been confirmed to be canon... the meaning of the acronym ARMD)

Edited February 16, 2010 by Seto Kaiba

[Marzan]

Max and Millia separated briefly due to job presures. Max was the military leader while Millia was the mayor/president of Macross 7. They got back together by the end of Macross 7. Though demonstrating ahem... Culture to the Chlore Meltran fleet may have helped. After all these year both are hot for each other. Max and Millia had seven children and one adopted naturally born Zentradi daughter. (They shot her down, micloned her, and brought her home )

Thanks for the info.

You would have though that after all those daughters Max would try to adopt a lost Zentraedi boy instead of a daughter!

[miles316]

Is it just me or does Maximilian look like he has Football shoulder pads on in M7?

If they ever bring him back in a future Macross Series they need to get rid of the cape thing he is wearing because it makes him look pretentious and uncool.

[VFTF1]

I got a couple more noob Macross thots here,

Does Hikaru and Misa have decendants in the Macross universe like Max and Millia? because I heard that nothing ever pointed to them since Flashback 2012 where Hikaru and Misa greeted Minmay on the SDF-2

I can understand keeping Max and Millia's family line in Macross because their union is the key to the Human-Zentraedi unification but I am sure that something should sooner or later come from Hikaru and Misa.

Also I wanted to ask,Do any Macross fans get "nostalgic" on the first series of SDF Macross? because I am still collecting the subbed version little by little and want to see the story difference and see if it will it keep me interested in it because I heard Macross never killed off Captain Global and Misa did not fall in love with Hikaru until further into the series.

Laters

I'd like to chime in here, if I may.

Seto and others have, as usual, done a great job giving the chronological differences of what happens to whom in Macross as opposed to Robotech - but personally, I have always felt that these differences (does "Rick" go to place X or does Hikaru go to place B?) are completely irrelevent when trying to determine the REAL difference between the two shows and between what makes Macross so good and Robotech so much worse than Macross.

If you do watch SDF Macross subbed, I think you'll see a lot of differences, primarily in the way that the love story between Hikaru and Misa is developed as opposed to what we get with Rick and Lisa. One of my favorite examples is the scene when Rick/Hikaru and Lisa/Misa are trying to escape from Zendradi prison, and Misa/Lisa is captured by one Zendradi who picks her up - Rick/Hikaru grabs a huge Zendradi gun and shoots the Zendradi soldier in the head. He falls limp and dead, but Misa/Lisa is stuck in his limp hand, and other soldiers are coming to get them. Rick/Hikaru struggles to get Misa/Lisa free.

Now - in Robotech, the dialogue in this scene goes something like this (if memory serves:)

Lisa: Or Rick! I've always loved you!

Rick: Oh Lisa! I won't leave you! I love you!

I'm pretty damned sure at LEAST Lisa TELLS Rick in this scene that she loves him.

In general, Harmony Gold made this into a suspenseful scene where, in the midst of life-threatening danger, Rick the Hero saves Lisa the Helpless who tells him immediately that She loves him and ALWAYS has (even though the animation shows us that she NEVER showed any fondness for him at all).

I wonder - maybe Seto can tell us - what is the reason given in Robotech for Lisa going on the Cats Eye mission that she ends up getting captured during? I ask because I wonder if Robotech worked in some kind of fondness/Rick Hunter motive there?

In Macross - Misa goes on the mission because her HONOR as a SOLDIER is challenged by Hikaru berating her for staying safe on the bridge while pilots die in space. When she sees the dead body of a pilot floating above his ruined Valkyrie, she is determined to show that she is also a brave soldier and can risk her life - so she volunteers...well - actually - she basically FORCES Global to send her.

Anyways - in Macross, the dialogue for the scene when Misa is stuck in the Zendradi soldier's limp hand is TOTALLY DIFFERENT.

First of all - Misa is not weeping out of love - but out of SHAME. She is ASHAMED that she FAILED her mission as a soldier. She tells Hikaru to LEAVE HER BECAUSE she has failed - she dropped the microfilm camera with all the pictures of the Zendradi and their base - and therefore her intelligence gathering mission is a failure.

She basically acts LIKE A SOLDIER: I have failed in my duty. Leave me to die so that I will at least have the honor of DEATH rather than return in shame as someone who has failed the mission.

This is what she tells Hikaru.

And what does Hikaru say?

"No way! I'm not gonna leave a woman!"

And he pulls her out - and Misa's face lights up with a big smile and happy eyes.

Why?

Because for the FIRST time in her life - a handsome brave Man treated her LIKE A WOMAN - not like a soldier, not like a commanding officer and not like someone from a family of soldiers who was bound by honor and family tradition to become a Military officer.

It was the first time - since Riber - that a Man just treated her like a girl. And Misa loved it - because deep beneath her military exterior - she IS a girl - and she wants what all girls want - a strong, confident handsome man to make her feel safe and adored.

The scene is also excellent because it demonstrates how Misa is similar to the Zendradi - who have also lost their human culture due to the rigors of military life (although Misa explicitly says this later on when she compares herself to them after the two of them plunge into the cooling tank of the engine).

So - see...

HUGE difference - MEGA HUGE in just that one scene.

If you are going to look at the differences between Robotech and Macross - look for the SIGNIFICANT differences. Macross is NOT better than Robotech because Hikaru goes away on a space ship called "Mega-Road 1" rather than floating around a Black Hole in a space ship called "SDF-3."

That's actually totally irreelevent and secondary. It's not so important where and when who was and what they were doing - what's important is the plot, the dialogue, the emotions and how the animation in Macross was ALWAYS MADE WITH THE PLOT OF MACROSS AND THE DIALOGUE AND CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT/ARCS IN MIND.

The animation of Macross makes SENSE when you listen to the lines the characters deliver and understand the history of it. What Robotech does is to ignore the animation in favor of a contrived and inferior story.

Pete

[twich]

Hello,

I do not know if this is the most appropriate place for this discussion, but if it is in the wrong place, then MODS, please move it.

I was wondering if we could discuss possible suggestions for upgrading previous mecha to modern (Macross Frontier) level engines and power. My vote would be for upgrading the SV-51 to Macross Frontier levels. What would be your suggestions to make this already great mecha space worthy and capable of competing with the likes of the VF-171, VF-25 and possibly the VF-27?

1. Upgrade the engines-give it the same engines as the VF-25, like the FF-3001

2. Strengthen the airframe to current G-Force/stress levels.

3.?

What are your suggestions? Please discuss!

Twich

[Seto Kaiba]

I was wondering if we could discuss possible suggestions for upgrading previous mecha to modern (Macross Frontier) level engines and power. My vote would be for upgrading the SV-51 to Macross Frontier levels. What would be your suggestions to make this already great mecha space worthy and capable of competing with the likes of the VF-171, VF-25 and possibly the VF-27?

Okay, one question. Why on earth would you want to do something like that? It's pointless. It's practical enough to keep a robust design in service longer with incremental systems upgrades if the role it was intended to fill hasn't changed, but to drag an antique like the SV-51 back into service by upgrading every onboard system is just pointless. Even if you can strengthen the airframe and cram all the new and updated technology into it, there's absolutely no guarantee that you'd get performance comparable or even close to fighters designed to accommodate those systems. The SV-51 was simply never designed for the sort of speeds or g-forces that would be imposed on it, which will make it much more difficult (if not impossible) to control at the higher velocities the improved engines are capable of. For that matter, it wasn't built to use things like pinpoint barriers, so there's the potential to mess with the weight distribution of the airframe, which could make it even harder to control.

1. Upgrade the engines-give it the same engines as the VF-25, like the FF-3001[

2. Strengthen the airframe to current G-Force/stress levels.

3. Crash and burn after pushing the fighter well beyond the speeds and thrust ratings the airframe was aerodynamically designed to operate at.

What are your suggestions? Please discuss!

Offer really lucrative contract terms and scout for gullible pilots to compensate for the firey-crash-induced high rate of pilot turnover, and/or invest in a REALLY good ejection system.

Edited February 23, 2010 by Seto Kaiba

[akt_m]

1. Upgrade the engines-give it the same engines as the VF-25, like the FF-3001[

2. Strengthen the airframe to current G-Force/stress levels.

3. Crash and burn after pushing the fighter well beyond the speeds and thrust ratings the airframe was aerodynamically designed to operate at.

Nah, just upgrading the VF-1 engines to the same ones of the VF-25 would give it the same performance.

Edited February 23, 2010 by akt_m

[Master Dex]

3. Crash and burn after pushing the fighter well beyond the speeds and thrust ratings the airframe was aerodynamically designed to operate at.

Nah, just upgrading the VF-1 engines to the same ones of the VF-25 would give it the same performance.

Hah, I doubt that. Now if you really want me to explain why (though Seto seems to have the gist of it down), I can. I am an Aerospace Engineering student, this stuff is what I do. I rather not spend the time typing up the explanation (partly because Seto got the key points down).

Suffice it to say if you put VF-25 engines on a VF-1 and tried to fly it, the forces would rip the plane to shreds. Possibly even burning shreds if the air in front of the plane were to violently compress to the levels it does when spacecraft re-enter the atmosphere (more so actually). The VF-25 airframe is designed to work with that thrust, the VF-1 was not.

[Seto Kaiba]

Hah, I doubt that. Now if you really want me to explain why (though Seto seems to have the gist of it down), I can. I am an Aerospace Engineering student, this stuff is what I do. I rather not spend the time typing up the explanation (partly because Seto got the key points down).

Awww... that's a shame. I would've liked to read it. I'm always up for an expert's opinion.

Suffice it to say if you put VF-25 engines on a VF-1 and tried to fly it, the forces would rip the plane to shreds. Possibly even burning shreds if the air in front of the plane were to violently compress to the levels it does when spacecraft re-enter the atmosphere (more so actually). The VF-25 airframe is designed to work with that thrust, the VF-1 was not.

Considering the VF-25 and VF-27 are both canonically quite capable of flying themselves to the point where they burn up due to atmospheric friction (the VF-27 can compensate somewhat using its pinpoint barrier, but only temporarily), sticking those ridiculously powerful engines onto something neither aerodynamically nor structurally designed to handle them is a disaster waiting to happen. With thrust like that, and without an inertia store converter, there's a good chance of the pilot being pancaked into his chair if he opens the throttle up all the way too...

Basically, what happened to Guld's YF-21 at the end of Macross Plus, but to a slightly more extreme degree...

[akt_m]

Hah, I doubt that. Now if you really want me to explain why (though Seto seems to have the gist of it down), I can. I am an Aerospace Engineering student, this stuff is what I do. I rather not spend the time typing up the explanation (partly because Seto got the key points down).

Suffice it to say if you put VF-25 engines on a VF-1 and tried to fly it, the forces would rip the plane to shreds. Possibly even burning shreds if the air in front of the plane were to violently compress to the levels it does when spacecraft re-enter the atmosphere (more so actually). The VF-25 airframe is designed to work with that thrust, the VF-1 was not.

Actually i answered that way on purpose, you may have the corret real world logic, but we are talking about fiction. Unless Kawamori officially states that if you put the VF-25 into the VF-1 it will burn, what i said could be just as true as what you are saying.

Edited February 24, 2010 by akt_m

[Seto Kaiba]

Actually i answered that way on purpose, you may have the corret real world logic, but we are talking about fiction. Unless Kawamori officially states that if you put the VF-25 into the VF-1 it will burn, what i said could be just as true as what you are saying.

Not necessarily... we've already seen one prominent example of a fighter less advanced and powerful than the VF-25 that was perfectly capable of flying itself to pieces and killing the pilot in Macross Plus. Kawamori made it no secret that what was holding the VF-25 and VF-27 back in atmospheric flight performance was the fuselage's limited resistance to the heat caused by atmospheric friction at high velocities. Given the information available, we know even fighters designed to handle those stresses have enough engine power to destroy themselves under the right circumstances. It's simple logical inference that an older design not intended to handle those stresses wouldn't hold up nearly as well as a design that was.

Kawamori rarely does anything completely illogical with his designs for Macross, so I find the idea that he might say the VF-1 could handle the stresses imposed by the VF-25's engines somewhat silly...

Edited February 24, 2010 by Seto Kaiba

[Uxi]

VF-1 is probably too extreme of an example. VF-19 and VF-22 should be able to compete far more ably with VF-25 and VF-27 with the suitable tech upgrades, though.

Ultimately, the newer craft are likely more capable, but the logistics of a war between a fleet primarily manned by VF-19's with VF-22 special forces could be far more effective than one with VF-171 and VF-25 special forces. Most likely for cheaper, too. I'm specifically thinking of F-15 Active versus F-22, Super Tomcat versus Super Hornet, etc

[sketchley]

(the VF-27 can compensate somewhat using its pinpoint barrier, but only temporarily),

Don't forget that they (or at least the VF-27) is also the only fighter able to utilize surplus energy in fighter mode to use energy conversion armour to enhance the aeroframe's resistance to atmospheric friction.

And to hammer the nail into the coffin lid on the VF-1 with VF-25 engines thing: the engines don't fit. VF-1: 12.68 m vs. VF-25: 15.59 m. The VF-25 is a good 23% larger than the VF-1. The engines also have an equivalent size increase. No room!

[akt_m]

Not necessarily... we've already seen one prominent example of a fighter less advanced and powerful than the VF-25 that was perfectly capable of flying itself to pieces and killing the pilot in Macross Plus. Kawamori made it no secret that what was holding the VF-25 and VF-27 back in atmospheric flight performance was the fuselage's limited resistance to the heat caused by atmospheric friction at high velocities. Given the information available, we know even fighters designed to handle those stresses have enough engine power to destroy themselves under the right circumstances. It's simple logical inference that an older design not intended to handle those stresses wouldn't hold up nearly as well as a design that was.

Kawamori rarely does anything completely illogical with his designs for Macross, so I find the idea that he might say the VF-1 could handle the stresses imposed by the VF-25's engines somewhat silly... dry.gif

actually my point was that we can't really argue who is right or wrong when it comes to fiction.

And at VFX2 the i could beat the ghost x-9 using a VF1, VFX2 is canon, so i can speculate that the VF1 of that time is better than the VF-22??? So it may actually hold the VF-25 engines!

[Uxi]

Can't really use game mechanics to illustrate that point. Guld had great difficulty with the Ghost X-9... I still think the most sensible solution would be for Guld and Isamu to double team the Ghost then go save Myung together...

[sketchley]

And at VFX2 the i could beat the ghost x-9 using a VF1, VFX2 is canon, so i can speculate that the VF1 of that time is better than the VF-22??? So it may actually hold the VF-25 engines!

See my post above re: engines.

As for VF-1 vs the Ghost X-9: all fighter pilots say that success comes from pilot skill/experience, the aircraft involved, and luck. Therefore, the VF-1 beating the Ghost is as much, if not moreso, your ability (the pilot), and luck.

I seem to remember that it took much, much, much longer for the VF-1 to defeat the Ghost than the VF-22 (2 to 5 minutes, or more, of dogfighting for the VF-1, vs. less than 15 seconds for the VF-22 (that's two or three volleys of micro-missiles during the initial approach)).

Even then, it was only with volleys of micro-missiles from the FAST packs on the VF-1. Which are impossible, as those VF-1 FAST packs are SPACE use only. So, the whole situation is flawed to begin with.

[akt_m]

And to hammer the nail into the coffin lid on the VF-1 with VF-25 engines thing: the engines don't fit. VF-1: 12.68 m vs. VF-25: 15.59 m. The VF-25 is a good 23% larger than the VF-1. The engines also have an equivalent size increase. No room!

Then use the VF-0, it is bigger and also if it looks more modern, then it is more modern.

Edited February 24, 2010 by akt_m

[Uxi]

I've alway thought the VF-0 was more than a little anachronistic. It just doesn't fit as a precursor to the VF-1 but looks like it could be a valid competitor for the VF-20 project. As far as the VF-51, it was redone though... it's called the VF-27.

Edited February 24, 2010 by Uxi