Newbie Questions on Macross

[Macross007]

I have read that fold space is 1 lightyear every 6 minutes. Can ships or valkyries go faster or slower than that ?

[Mr March]

How was that rate established? I don't believe I've ever read of any speed for fold travel being established and I can't recall a fan analysis on the subject.

Edited June 22, 2009 by Mr March

[azrael]

The only number we have concerning fold is that for every hour spent in super dimension space, 10 days pass in normal space. And I'm not sure how we can define super dimension space in light years.

[Macross007]

How was that rate established? I don't believe I've ever read of any speed for fold travel being established and I can't recall a fan analysis on the subject.

SetoKaiba mentioned it during a debate on Robotech.com :

"(...)Unfortunately, Macross's creators have never really established how fast (in terms of distance vs time elapsed) a fold jump is.

Likewise, Robotech makes no declarations of how fast fold travel is, but since the depiction of fold travel has changed dramatically of late (from a Macross-style disappearance and reappearance into a generic warp drive effect) whatever definitions may have been previously made probably no longer apply.

If memory serves, the only source to touch on the subject is the Palladium RPG, which is not exactly reliable. I believe they gave "1 light year every six minutes" as the measure of fold velocity. This comes out to ~87,600 times the speed of light, a good deal faster than even the fastest warp drive velocities in Star Trek. It's an unofficial figure.

(...)"

Link : http://www.robotech.com/community/forum/re...3&forumid=9

Edited June 22, 2009 by Macross007

[Mr March]

Well, that's not Macross now is it?

I think Macross ships move at the speed of plot. Aside from that, no other rules governing time vs. distance have ever been given in Macross.

[Macross007]

I think Macross ships move at the speed of plot.

Yeah, pretty much like Star Trek except Macross is not that stupid to give numbers that make no sense at all to confuse the viewers.

Edited June 22, 2009 by Macross007

[Macross007]

Well, that's not Macross now is it?

Well, the 1 lightyear every 6 minutes number has been mentioned in a Macross website : http://www.steelfalcon.com/macrossmecha.html

[azrael]

Well, the 1 lightyear every 6 minutes number has been mentioned in a Macross website : http://www.steelfalcon.com/macrossmecha.html

It's still RPG info.

[Mr March]

Wow, that website is still around? Last updated, 1998?

[Zinjo]

It could simply be that the RPG writers did the math.

1 lightyear = X km

1 light day = X km

1 light hour = X km

They may have simply took the math backwards by using 10 days vs 60 minutes, with the constant being 10 days distance at the speed of light. Since no actual speed is every mentioned during a fold.

From that they could come to a ballpark determination of how fast fold travel is.

Now Kawamori has certainly changed the way he presents folds, or modified them to a couple of different types.

A) Point to Point Fold - short distance which creates a fold bubble (Fold Jump?)

B) Long distance Fold - long distance fold which creates a worm hole tunnel. (Space Fold Travel?)

The Macross crashing to earth looked like it came out of a long space fold as well as Vritai's ship when it travelled to the main fleet, whereas when the Macross folded to Pluto and the Zentreadi fleet showed up in the Sol system, it looked like short range jumps.

The only exception seems to be in Mac 7, when the City 7 folded it looked like traditional fold animation, eventhough it travelled a long distance.

It is possible that now that cg animation has developed this far, it allowed SK to realize his vision for what a long distance fold was supposed to look like. Just a theory....

[JB0]

It could simply be that the RPG writers did the math.

1 lightyear = X km

1 light day = X km

1 light hour = X km

They may have simply took the math backwards by using 10 days vs 60 minutes, with the constant being 10 days distance at the speed of light. Since no actual speed is every mentioned during a fold.

Hmmm... that WOULD make an excellent lower limit, actually.

Of course... does Palladium mean 6 minutes ship-time, or 6 minutes real-time?

That matters a lot.

Sadly, the only fold we have any sort of clear distance measure on is the Earth/Pluto jump, which was depicted as near-instantaneous(it took longer to open the fold than it did to travel the distance).

Now Kawamori has certainly changed the way he presents folds, or modified them to a couple of different types.

A) Point to Point Fold - short distance which creates a fold bubble (Fold Jump?)

B) Long distance Fold - long distance fold which creates a worm hole tunnel. (Space Fold Travel?)

The Macross crashing to earth looked like it came out of a long space fold as well as Vritai's ship when it travelled to the main fleet, whereas when the Macross folded to Pluto and the Zentreadi fleet showed up in the Sol system, it looked like short range jumps.

The only exception seems to be in Mac 7, when the City 7 folded it looked like traditional fold animation, eventhough it travelled a long distance.

You can actually reconcile the two different illustrations without them being different travel techniques.

If it's relative to the speed of the ship as it enters fold, it makes a lot of sense.

There may be some sort of transition from real space to fold space that necessitates certain entry behaviors, and you can "project" the fold "gate" in front of the ship if it's moving fast enough, but you have to open the gate AROUND the ship if it's not going above that minimum speed.

I'd think opening the fold around the ship would also make it much easier to synchronize multiple fold generators working on a single target. But that's only been needed once, in Macross 7.

[dreamweaver13]

A) Point to Point Fold - short distance which creates a fold bubble (Fold Jump?)

B) Long distance Fold - long distance fold which creates a worm hole tunnel. (Space Fold Travel?)

To explain the difference between the fold-bubble jump in SDFM, and the subsequent long distance folds, could it be possible that this was entirely a misintepretation of the rules of folding on the part of pre-SW1 humans? humans acquired overtech, but maybe they misapplied it. hence, the missing fold drives afterwards. and only after teaming up with the zentraedi did humans get the proper application of a space fold?

[JB0]

To explain the difference between the fold-bubble jump in SDFM, and the subsequent long distance folds, could it be possible that this was entirely a misintepretation of the rules of folding on the part of pre-SW1 humans? humans acquired overtech, but maybe they misapplied it. hence, the missing fold drives afterwards. and only after teaming up with the zentraedi did humans get the proper application of a space fold?

It's stated, in the show, that the spectacular series of failures on the Macross' maiden voyage was due to the booby trap.

Both the gravity controllers AND the fold drive broke because of the unprepared main cannon firing.

[Mr March]

Actually, we know a few more distances than the first fold to Pluto in SDF Macross. The problem is we don't have the amount of time passed for these instances of fold travel. In Macross Plus, the distance from Eden to Earth is 11.7 light years. In Macross Frontier, we are told the Frontier Fleet makes a final 1,000 light year fold to reach the Vajra homeworld. But again, in each instance, we are not told the time that has passed during the fold. If we knew that, we could come up with some kind of rate.

There is Alto and Sheryl's trip to Gallia 4, which required them to adjust their onboard chronometers upon defold by +172.25 hours. But this time, we don't know the distance

[Macross007]

It's still RPG info.

Yeah, I understand sir. The 1 lightyear every 6 minutes number is not canon but since the Macross creators themselves never said or wrote anything about the subject I think we should consider that number as a possible reference.

Edited June 23, 2009 by Macross007

[Einherjar]

Since when did Palladium become experts in Macross affairs outside of a RPG? They could have said anything they want out of convenience. Even the steelfalcon site says it takes information from the RPG books to make up the extra info.

[JB0]

Actually, we know a few more distances than the first fold to Pluto in SDF Macross. The problem is we don't have the amount of time passed for these instances of fold travel. In Macross Plus, the distance from Eden to Earth is 11.7 light years. In Macross Frontier, we are told the Frontier Fleet makes a final 1,000 light year fold to reach the Vajra homeworld. But again, in each instance, we are not told the time that has passed during the fold. If we knew that, we could come up with some kind of rate.

Whoops!

Clearly my memory is only any good for the original series.

There is Alto and Sheryl's trip to Gallia 4, which required them to adjust their onboard chronometers upon defold by +172.25 hours. But this time, we don't know the distance

Curses!

[azrael]

Yeah, I understand sir. The 1 lightyear every 6 minutes number is not canon but since the Macross creators themselves never said or wrote anything about the subject I think we should consider that number as a possible reference.

Even as a reference, it still doesn't work because Frontier showed us that new fold boosters are being developed and that figure would no longer apply. And what if the creators said more energy into a fold system would make it go faster or any other technobabble. Then that figure no longer applies. The creators left themselves these loopholes to avoid running into these kinds of issues. That's why they never wrote very much on certain subjects.

Most of us have maintained that RPG info is designed specifically for the game and not for argument/debate purposes (unless you are arguing about the game, in which case, call the company that made the game). Otherwise, gamers have no sense of time or constraints. Game makers have to make constraints, otherwise it would be no fun and I can roll a 1D20 to hit and spent the entire round emptying the gun or ammo or just say I teleport, attack with my sword, and cast a fireball spell, then summon a colony of giant flesh-eating ants to tear my opponent down to -120 hitpoints, all in the same round.

[Bri]

One additional complication with the fold concept as seen in Macross is that we do not know if the ships take the most direct route through super dimensional space (assuming a kind of hyperspace like thing). We would need time and distance covered in that space and distance covered and time passed in real space to make any inferences.

[JB0]

One additional complication with the fold concept as seen in Macross is that we do not know if the ships take the most direct route through super dimensional space (assuming a kind of hyperspace like thing). We would need time and distance covered in that space and distance covered and time passed in real space to make any inferences.

Actually, Frontier says they DON'T take the most direct route. If I recall, they go around some fold faults and through others.

It may wind up being the SHORTEST route, time-wise, but it's not the most direct.

[Zinjo]

Actually, Frontier says they DON'T take the most direct route. If I recall, they go around some fold faults and through others.

It may wind up being the SHORTEST route, time-wise, but it's not the most direct.

Much like an aircraft going "around" or "over/under" a storm. It isn't the most efficient route, but the safest...

[JB0]

Much like an aircraft going "around" or "over/under" a storm. It isn't the most efficient route, but the safest...

I was under the impression it was a time thing... that the faults were "slower" to go through than the rest of fold space. But if you have to go WAY around, it's faster to punch through it anyways.

[dreamweaver13]

I was under the impression it was a time thing... that the faults were "slower" to go through than the rest of fold space. But if you have to go WAY around, it's faster to punch through it anyways.

i don't think it was just a matter of folds through faults being slower, but more of it being impossible. I remember ep 7, where Luca was completely shocked that the vajra was able to fold through a fold fault.

[Mr March]

Yeah, I think it was the need to course correct and navigate around fold faults that made them such a bother for conventional fold drives. At least, that's the impression I got from Macross Frontier. If folding space is actually "folding" and there's no physical motion forward while "traveling" in super dimensions space, I can see how fold faults would pose a very significant problem. Here you are, folding space over and over during your "ride" through SD space when your ship suddenly comes upon this zone of SD space that you can't fold (which you term a "fault"). That seems the most logical explanation, although I admit we can't really know one way or the other.

[JB0]

I bet I know what I saw.

I remember one scene they were plotting a course, and it looked like they went through some faults and around others. They were probably just going around, but around in a direction that carried them towards the "camera", so it LOOKED like they were going through.

Don't mind me. I'm just crazy.

[Ojousama]

Dear all

I'm not good at english but i've a question.

about the word [Culture (bunka)], what's the meaning of it?

especially, that Sheryl said in Macross F CH.7

tell me please.

Thank you

arigatou~

[Mr March]

For the meaning of "Deculture", this is what I came up with based on translated information:

Deculture (de culcha)

A Zentradi/Meltrandi expletive statement often spoken to communicate the feeling of shock (typically in context of the Protoculture). Included within the books for the Macross: Do You Remember Love? limited edition remastered DVD set is a list of Zentraedi/Meltrandi words and the Japanese/English translations. "De culcha" is translated as "stupid thing" or "terrifying thing". By themselves, "de" means "no" or acts as a negative prefix, and "culcha" means "wonderful thing". The closest english approximation would be the phrase "What the hell" in response to experiencing something shocking or bizarre. The phrase has since been adopted by the human/zentradi culture for use in a positive context, often spoken as a meme in popular culture.

Hope that helps.

Edited June 28, 2009 by Mr March

[Gubaba]

For the meaning of "Deculture", this is what I came up with based on translated information:

Hope that helps.

I think she was asking about "culture," not "deculture"...

Anyway, Ojousama, if you are asking about "culture" (bunka, 文化), it's just music, art, film, literature, architecture...anything artistic. But it Macross it ususally refers to music.

[VFTF1]

I might be wrong, but I think the roots of the word culture are greek and that the same word also meant what we now call "agriculture." Thus it's not just the activities of music, art, theatre, literature etc - but also the process of nurturing and growing something to its' full potential just like a farmer takes care to grow crops, so culture grows happy people. This is why it's so important in Macross - the Zendradi are not grown to their full potential without culture - no people are.

How would I say that in Japanese so Ojousama can understand?

Pete

[azrael]

I might be wrong, but I think the roots of the word culture are greek and that the same word also meant what we now call "agriculture." Thus it's not just the activities of music, art, theatre, literature etc - but also the process of nurturing and growing something to its' full potential just like a farmer takes care to grow crops, so culture grows happy people. This is why it's so important in Macross - the Zendradi are not grown to their full potential without culture - no people are.

I think Gubaba is closer to what the user may be asking for. Your reply is more of the actual definition of "culture". Nothing wrong with either one though.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/culture

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/culture

[Ojousama]

I might be wrong, but I think the roots of the word culture are greek and that the same word also meant what we now call "agriculture." Thus it's not just the activities of music, art, theatre, literature etc - but also the process of nurturing and growing something to its' full potential just like a farmer takes care to grow crops, so culture grows happy people. This is why it's so important in Macross - the Zendradi are not grown to their full potential without culture - no people are.

How would I say that in Japanese so Ojousama can understand?

Pete

Thank you for your answer.

I'll beg my friend for explain me later hahaha ^o^

but if I listen from Japanese (Chapter 7)

Sheryl said like "Everyone,are you culturing?" (minna bunka shiteru?) and everyone answer bunkashiteru! (seems like they answer "yes! culturring!")

that's why I want to know the meaning of that word cleary.

it's mean for

- Are you ready?

- Are you exciting?

- Are you ready to exchange culture with me?

- Are you in love?

what else?

Tell me please,What is the correct meaning of that phase ToT

[Gubaba]

Thank you for your answer.

I'll beg my friend for explain me later hahaha ^o^

but if I listen from Japanese (Chapter 7)

Sheryl said like "Everyone,are you culturing?" (minna bunka shiteru?) and everyone answer bunkashiteru! (seems like they answer "yes! culturring!")

that's why I want to know the meaning of that word cleary.

it's mean for

- Are you ready?

- Are you exciting?

- Are you ready to exchange culture with me?

- Are you in love?

what else?

Tell me please,What is the correct meaning of that phase ToT

I think "Are you creating culture?" is probably the best interpretation.

[dreamweaver13]

I think "Are you creating culture?" is probably the best interpretation.

Yup, sounds right.

and given the importance of "culture" in winning the space conflicts on earth's side of the universe, it's actually Sheryl's way of declaring "do humans kick ass or what??!" to which the crowd replies, "Hell YEAH, we kick ass!!"

[Gubaba]

Yup, sounds right.

and given the importance of "culture" in winning the space conflicts on earth's side of the universe, it's actually Sheryl's way of declaring "do humans kick ass or what??!" to which the crowd replies, "Hell YEAH, we kick ass!!"

MAKE CULTURE NOT WAR!

[VFTF1]

I think Gubaba is closer to what the user may be asking for. Your reply is more of the actual definition of "culture".

That's because I'm like the Terminator. As Reese says "It was just being thorough"

Sheryl said like "Everyone,are you culturing?" (minna bunka shiteru?) and everyone answer bunkashiteru! (seems like they answer "yes! culturring!")

that's why I want to know the meaning of that word cleary.

I personally love the idea of "are you culturing?" in english. It is not the "correct" way to use the word, but I think it is perfect for what is happening in Macross and I believe that people should use this word - it is cute!

I think "Are you creating culture?" is probably the best interpretation.

Maybe - but "creating culture" suggests that A (the creator) and B (the thing being created) are seperate, and that A (the creator) is making something out-side of itself.

But the reality is that culture is inside of us. When Breetai and Exodol stare ini amazement at Minmey singing on their screen in DYRL, you can see their chests swelling and a kind of look in their eye like something is growing in them - like plants growing on a farm.

In that scene, Breetai and Exodol are not "creating culture" - but they are "culturing" - there is culture growing in them and thanks to this, they are growing as full human beings.

So I support "are you culturing!"

It's one of my favorite sayings from Macross

Pete