Macross Frontier Plot Theories...

[Ork_dreadnought]

The Zentradi were created as Proxy warriors. Since their fleets were huge and they only knew fighting, is probable most species they came into contact and refused to surrender to the Protoculture were simply wiped out by them... exterminated... extinct... finito. Is a very very big Galaxy, so the possibilities are endless.

So basically, the odds of anything which is not protoculture influenced being found is very small, but not totally out of the question. Thanks, that's been bugging me for a while.

If you watched Macross Zero there was a spiral symbol in many Protoculture artifacts. The Red Large Vajra has those symbols on its armor too...

I have seen 0 but that was ages ago, so my recollectation is hazy. I need to watch it again. A thought occurs, did they ever officially say all that stuff was protoculture, or did we just assume?

[Gubaba]

I have seen 0 but that was ages ago, so my recollectation is hazy. I need to watch it again. A thought occurs, did they ever officially say all that stuff was protoculture, or did we just assume?

That's a tough one...they talk about the "Protoculture" theory, but it just means that aliens meddled with human evolution. So they never come out and say it (probably since humans didn't hear anything about Protoculture until Bodolzaa spilled the beans), so yes, it's an assumption. But consider...

1. The APHOS dates from roughly the same period as the Protoculture underwater city (yeah, it's DYRL, so non-canonical, but I bet cities like that were really there in the "real" Macross world as well).

2. Whatever race messed with human DNA also created the APHOS.

3. The Mayan legends clearly refer back to the Protoculture, and also contain references to the APHOS.

So, yes, it's all an assumption, but one which is on pretty solid ground.

[Master Dex]

I have seen 0 but that was ages ago, so my recollectation is hazy. I need to watch it again. A thought occurs, did they ever officially say all that stuff was protoculture, or did we just assume?

It didn't outright tell everyone it was a protoculture remnant but it is pretty obvious it was. Also in the beginning of Ep.8 of Frontier the voice over information guy talks about Protoculture and the Birdman/AFOS is shown.

EDIT: Gubaba beat me by 'that' much! lol.

Edited June 7, 2008 by Master Dex

[Gubaba]

EDIT: Gubaba beat me by 'that' much! lol.

But you mentioned a point that I'd forgotten, so it's all good.

[Ork_dreadnought]

That's a tough one...they talk about the "Protoculture" theory, but it just means that aliens meddled with human evolution. So they never come out and say it (probably since humans didn't hear anything about Protoculture until Bodolzaa spilled the beans), so yes, it's an assumption. But consider...

1. The APHOS dates from roughly the same period as the Protoculture underwater city (yeah, it's DYRL, so non-canonical, but I bet cities like that were really there in the "real" Macross world as well).

2. Whatever race messed with human DNA also created the APHOS.

3. The Mayan legends clearly refer back to the Protoculture, and also contain references to the APHOS.

So, yes, it's all an assumption, but one which is on pretty solid ground.

Hmm, well, that's one juicy theory shot down. If there had been a second race involved it would explain the wildly different technologies of the Zentradi, Vajra and the birdman.

[s001]

I like the theory that the Vajra are possibly constructs built by the Macross Galaxy fleet from samples of the AFOS. They go out of control or are deliberately unleashed and factions within the Macross Frontier fleet are trying to cover up the secret. The VF-27 uses technology derived from the Vajra experiements and the Vajra themselves are affected by music to a degree just like the AFOS was.

If the protoculture is not involved in this story I will be very very disappointed.

[d3v]

If you watched Macross Zero there was a spiral symbol in many Protoculture artifacts. The Red Large Vajra has those symbols on its armor too...

The characteristics of the Vajra are too advanced and waaay above any type of technology the Zentradi had. If you analize the Zentradi mecha/ships designs they are pretty basic and simple in design. The Vajra on the other hand are a result of much more advanced technologies that merge mechatronics and genetic engineering.

If the Vajra are indeed product of the Protoculture they must have been developed many many years after the Zentradi were created...

Could have been part of some galactic arms race during the civil war when the protoculture were fighting with each other. One side developed the Evil series, another developed the Vajra.

[NoNameSt11]

Well, lets all look at what's been shown to us so far. There's an obvious connection with the events of Zero and Frontier now.

1. Sheryl shares the same last name as Mao and Sara. (Sara and Sheryl don't sound too dissimilar either).

2. Ozma's mention of Ranka being fated to play the part of Dr. Mao.

3. The Vajra's similar reaction to the Bird-Human's when Ranka and Sara would sing.

4. The interest in Sheryl's ear ring and the way it seemed to play the song when Alto was in trouble and the reaction of rocks on the Mayan island when Sara would sing (This is a bit of a stretch, but still note worthy).

Moving onto Brera and Grace:

5. The Galaxy fleet was known for it's advanced technology and Brera is a cyborg.

6. Grace has implants and is seen spying on a defense meeting.

Safe conclusions we can make as of now are that there's a definitive relation between Ranka and Mao, even possibly down to inheriting the mayan priestess' abilities. Her song activating a dormant Vajra and Sara stirring the sunken Bird-Human is a very strong correlation. Also of note is that Mao became a doctor between Zero and when Ozma met her. With the Bird-Human's blood being transferred into her own it's likely she became involved in protoculture development and research... maybe even creating the Vajra?

There's a connection between Galaxy and the Vajra that they don't want to be known, so much as to send spies to its sister fleet. I highly doubt it's a revival of the anti-UN forces with how the world joined together and stopped fighting as Zentradi began attacks. Brera's likely Ranka's sibling who's been kept alive with cybernetics. Was he the person in the ship we see in the flash back being destroyed by the Vajra?

As of now, I think it's likely that Ranka is a descendent of Mao, child or even grand child (she is 1/4 Zentradi). Mao moved to Galaxy to continue her studies on Protoculture and created a "clone" of herself or possibly her sister, named it Sheryl, to continue studies on Bird-Human prototypes. Remember the reactions the Bird-Human had when Sara would sing, they would need to raise another singer. This leads to the creation of the Vajra, which get out of hand and wreck havoc on everything. Galaxy has to keep their dirty little secret quiet and dispatches Brera and Grace to keep this info out of Frontier's hands, since Frontier is one of the leading ships farthest out into the center of the Galaxy.

/end Wall of text.

[Kronnang Dunn]

Well, lets all look at what's been shown to us so far. There's an obvious connection with the events of Zero and Frontier now.

1. Sheryl shares the same last name as Mao and Sara. (Sara and Sheryl don't sound too dissimilar either).

2. Ozma's mention of Ranka being fated to play the part of Dr. Mao.

3. The Vajra's similar reaction to the Bird-Human's when Ranka and Sara would sing.

4. The interest in Sheryl's ear ring and the way it seemed to play the song when Alto was in trouble and the reaction of rocks on the Mayan island when Sara would sing (This is a bit of a stretch, but still note worthy).

Moving onto Brera and Grace:

5. The Galaxy fleet was known for it's advanced technology and Brera is a cyborg.

6. Grace has implants and is seen spying on a defense meeting.

Safe conclusions we can make as of now are that there's a definitive relation between Ranka and Mao, even possibly down to inheriting the mayan priestess' abilities. Her song activating a dormant Vajra and Sara stirring the sunken Bird-Human is a very strong correlation. Also of note is that Mao became a doctor between Zero and when Ozma met her. With the Bird-Human's blood being transferred into her own it's likely she became involved in protoculture development and research... maybe even creating the Vajra?

There's a connection between Galaxy and the Vajra that they don't want to be known, so much as to send spies to its sister fleet. I highly doubt it's a revival of the anti-UN forces with how the world joined together and stopped fighting as Zentradi began attacks. Brera's likely Ranka's sibling who's been kept alive with cybernetics. Was he the person in the ship we see in the flash back being destroyed by the Vajra?

As of now, I think it's likely that Ranka is a descendent of Mao, child or even grand child (she is 1/4 Zentradi). Mao moved to Galaxy to continue her studies on Protoculture and created a "clone" of herself or possibly her sister, named it Sheryl, to continue studies on Bird-Human prototypes. Remember the reactions the Bird-Human had when Sara would sing, they would need to raise another singer. This leads to the creation of the Vajra, which get out of hand and wreck havoc on everything. Galaxy has to keep their dirty little secret quiet and dispatches Brera and Grace to keep this info out of Frontier's hands, since Frontier is one of the leading ships farthest out into the center of the Galaxy.

/end Wall of text.

Like Palpatine would say... "Goood...!!!!"

Hmm, well, that's one juicy theory shot down. If there had been a second race involved it would explain the wildly different technologies of the Zentradi, Vajra and the birdman.

There's also always the possibility that is just ONE race... The Protoculture. The differences between those creations is due to the different stage of development the Protoculture technology had when each one was made. The Zentradi were first... The Birdman much much later. The Vajra come from the Birdman...

If the protoculture is not involved in this story I will be very very disappointed.

Actually they are... but not directly.

Check this out... Is from the 2001 Macross M3 game for the Sega Dreamcast...

- Features Regult, Glaug, Tomahawk, Defender, Phalanx, Gnerl, four new variable craft (VF-9, VF-14, VF-3000, Variable Graug) and entirely new concept mecha (U.N. insectoid bioweapons developed from Protoculture genetic technology and Zentradi final weapon with two different combining mecha modes depending on ending) -

This clearly shows that U.N. Spacy/N.U.N.S. has been developing more and more advanced weapons to counter the possibility of more Zentradi or even Supervision Army attacks since Space War I. As desperate as they are, I hardly doubt they cared for the destructive capability of their creations. The Vajra are a result of that weapon development and research...

I bet the Large Red Vajra's Spirals are genetically coded in it... proof of a relation to the APHOS... A creation of the Protoculture.

Since the APHOS blood was used for a transfusion on Dr. Mao during Macross Zero, the Vajra must have been developed from her blood!!!!

Now... How come a girl like Mao becomes interested in bioweapons research and stuff and ends up a Doctor? Well... I believe she and the rest of the Mayans went to South Ataria Island and lived in Macross City (and so on). She must have experienced first hand the destruction of Space War I. Maybe after it she decided to contribute to the development of bioweapons to counter Zentradi or remaining Supervision Army forces...

Edited June 8, 2008 by Kronnang Dunn

[d3v]

After seeing episode 10, I rewatched Zero and picked up the ff. tidbits from the Mayan creation legend.

Then, the bird human came down and cut its own head off.

The blood that poured from his neck became a female, Rooy Waka.

Rooy Kanu and Rooy Waka joined together and gave birth to many children.

After giving birth to their children, Rooy Waka left and returned home to the stars, which was far across the ocean.

"My dear wife, please come back to me."

The bird human replied and said,

"My dear husband Rooy Kanu... The day I come back will be when the destiny of the stars crumble.

It is the day the song of destruction will echo into the world."

The second half of the legend where Rooy Waka (the female formed from the blood of the Bird Human) leaves for the stars intrigues me.

Sara clearly "left for the stars" at the end of Zero. The question now is whether that bit about returning when "the destiny of the stars crumble" and the "day when the song of destruction will echo into the world," has any relation to Frontier?

Now onto a less "grand" topic, concerning Brera's past. I have a feeling that if Ozma does die as many have speculated, it'll be after he meets Brera and figures out who he is but before he is able to tell Ranka.

Edited June 8, 2008 by d3v

[Mr March]

If the protoculture is not involved in this story I will be very very disappointed.

Doesn't really bother me either way. Just as long as whatever they are doing remains as interesting as it has been so far, I'll be content.

[Dio]

I too re-watched Zero to try and glean some things from it. It's interesting how a seemingly innocuous statement early on in a Macross series can actually be a major hint at things to come.

Why is Sheryl the seemingly only "all-natural" human among the Galaxy fleet? I've got some ideas about her...

Some have theorized she's a clone of Mao, but I think it goes slightly deeper than that. I think Sheryl is actually a clone of Sara Nome, herself. Dr. Hasford's stolen blood sample had to have been put to use for something, and what better place to try and push some scientific limits than on Galaxy, where technology is en vogue and research considered illegal elsewhere is commonplace? The NUNS is in charge now, but it's more like a confederation than a single governing body (hence different laws applying in different fleets), and the APHOS incident was declassified relatively recently as of Frontier, so perhaps some group took interest and tried to recreate the circumstances.

Side note: Zentradi technology would undoubtedly make cloning an easy point in history, given a good enough sample - perhaps she's blonde-haired and blue-eyed because they used a 50-year-old vial to recreate her

Why would this show go well beyond just homages toward Macross Zero (compared with the abundant tips of the hat to other Macross series) and actually include the retelling of its events as part of the Frontier storyline? Perhaps it's a means to allow viewers who hadn't seen the Zero OAV to get the basic info from that story since it's about to become relevant to the Frontier storyline?

Sheryl has no recollection of her parents, and is instead watched over by Grace, who we're pretty much certain has extra stuff going on behind the scenes (though I don't think she's evil - more like a guardian). She made the side comment about having never experienced school (quickly covering up by implying she meant the Mihoshi academy). And, she's 100% natural because it's a "selling point," but what if that was by design to try and make her as purely-Nome as possible?

Her blood type is Alpha, so she's definitely a Nome of some sort. And her singing affects Vajra, same as Ranka's. My theory here is that Ranka is a living descendant of Mao - her blood type is different, having been spliced in with Zentradi blood among others through two generations, but I think the heritage would trump the dominant alleles - and thus her singing has an effect on Vajra as well. Sheryl and Ranka are "related," but at the same time they're not. And likewise, I think Sheryl is the factor the Galaxy fleet (or whichever ominous background group is at work) knows about, but Ranka is the wild card no one predicted, hence their similar special abilities.

Poke some holes in this, please, o ye more versed ones - I got some other theories about how Brera fits in with this, but I'll save those for later since I gotta go teach some Jiujitsu now.

[flabortast]

Actually I like the Sheryl being Sara's clone idea. But Sheryl does not seem to have any effect on the Vajra at all. I think they did something wrong when they tried to clone Sara. Sheryl didn't produce results they seem to have wanted. Only Ranka seems to have any effect on the Vajra. A simple scream from Ranka was enough to distract the Vajra. Do the Vajra even want to hurt Ranka? Or is it a case of "I'm trying to get near my Queen but Airplane robots are trying to get in my way!"

[NoNameSt11]

I think it should just be said that when somebody says Birdman I automatically think Harvey Birdman Attorney at Law.

[Zinjo]

Someone on the GML mentioned that Marina Ismail in Gundam 00 is an old hag at age 24. When called on that, he mentioned that the Japanese refer to women who are that old as "Christmas Cake". i.e. no one wants them after the 24th.

While I can't vouch for the veracity of the supposed slang, it does fit with the ages that we often see in Japanese mecha shows.

If that is true, then it does explain why there are so many Japanese women who tend to live abroad in the mid twenties. In the West 24 is pretty young...

However, I'm with Togo ( ) on the whole intrigue aspect of the show. The reformation of UNSpacy and the UNG is a result of previous political events or possibly a civil conflict. The story thus far and particularly the absence of the Galaxy fleet and the independently designed and built VF-27 leads me to believe that this may be the continuation of or initial birth of a cold war in the Macross universe, between the UNG allied worlds and the colonies.

It may tie into VF-X2 with the political side of the story being that the encounter with the PD by the Megaroad 13, Mac5 & 7 fleets and then the discovery of the Vajra had colonial members of the security council feel that better defensive measures were needed to combat such threats. That could only come through cybernetics allowing personelle a more symbiotic interface with their equipment. A crude version of what the PC had achieved without implants in their bio-mecha like the AFOS.

Other members felt that this was not an option and banned such practices on their worlds, thus causing a serious rift in ideologies. Ultimately this rift lead to the uprising of the Vindirance group (whether this group was actually an independant group or secretly supported ala AUN army [like Mac Zero] is another question).

Since the Vajra have been known about for 19 years already and first major attack by them was 11 years prior, something had changed in their regard to humanity. They were possibly provoked into attack by activities of the Research fleet or maybe by the activities of another fleet nearby. It appears the purple crystals are at the heart of things. These crystals clearly have special properties and may in fact be the way the Vajra are controlled. I believe the Hammerhead Vajra are not remote controlled bio weapons like the Lobsters, but are in fact piloted bio-mecha that control the lobsters. It is possible that the crystals are in short supply, or the Vajra simply want to control all the known supply for their own purposes.

As for Sheryl, Ranka and Brera, I tend to believe they are related. They are either siblings or at most cousins. Direct descendants of Mao Nome, thus most likely her grandchildren. With Episode 10 finally revealing that Shin and Sara folded into space, I am still not sure if they will return in this series, but I do get the impression that their story is not yet finished.

[junior]

I believe the Hammerhead Vajra are not remote controlled bio weapons like the Lobsters, but are in fact piloted bio-mecha that control the lobsters.

Given that the yellow Vajra typically seem to outnumber the red Vajra by a pretty good margin, I'm inclined to disagree. If anything, I'd argue that it's the red Vajra that control the yellow ones - except that Leon has revealed that the red Vajra are pretty much mindless.

[Zinjo]

Given that the yellow Vajra typically seem to outnumber the red Vajra by a pretty good margin, I'm inclined to disagree. If anything, I'd argue that it's the red Vajra that control the yellow ones - except that Leon has revealed that the red Vajra are pretty much mindless.

Exactly!

Even the Skull Squad has the VB-6 Koenig, "big gun". How is it so incredible that Vajra would have the same?

[junior]

Exactly!

Even the Skull Squad has the VB-6 Koenig, "big gun". How is it so incredible that Vajra would have the same?

Er...

Huh? I'm not sure I understand how a comment that the yellow Vajra probably don't control the big Vajra ties into Skull Squadron and the Koenig Monster.

As far as similarities between the red Vajra and the Monster are concerned, I don't think there's enough there. The Koenig Monster is designed as a back-line support unit. Ozma spends the first part of the episode 7 fight clearing a path for Canaria (sp?) to reach the Dulfim. The red Vajra, on the other hand, seems to be a heavy front-line unit that specializes in punching through enemy lines. The Koenig Monster is capable of massive devestation, but it's pretty helpless against enemy units that manage to get up close. The red Vajra, on the other hand, is very capable of protecting itself against enemy units that get close.

It also occasionally operates independently, as we see in episode 4.

Edited June 8, 2008 by junior

[Dio]

Flabortast, I am so on the same page as you!

Following up a little on my theories from above, I believe the Vajra are a human mistake:

Once again, I go back to the fact that Macross Zero is playing so much into Frontier, moreso than any other canon has. Humans would undoubtedly like to get their hands on the powers of the Protoculture, as was evidenced in the fight between the UN and Anti-UN forces in trying to control the Bird Human. We also know (from Zero) that the Bird Human is an organic construct, with a distinct blood type that matches the Nome sisters. Hence, it wouldn't be "built" so much as "cloned" using the only remains they have from the incident, which would be the APHOS blood samples.

Assuming humanity never forgot its urge to control the APHOS and harness its powers, what's to stop them from trying to clone it? Vajra have markings and structure like the APHOS, but are simpler and more primitive, and while they can act independently they seem designed for remote control either by an outside source or perhaps a direct pilot. I would even go so far as to call them "APHOS Lite." They also respond (albeit unpredictably) to music from the girls I mentioned earlier as having genetic links to Sara and Mao Nome. But, humans are nowhere near the Protoculture were in terms of technology, so anything they make would be a primal and pitiful facsimile of the Bird Human.

Sara Nome was observed by the government(s) at the time of the APHOS incident demonstrating her powers to lift rocks, control PC remnants, etc. Mao was "reborn" by the tribal ritual on the deck of the carrier Asuka, and presumably developed Sara's same senses/powers, but was never really looked at by the military as anything other than a weird kid with the same blood type as the APHOS because all she ever did publicly was give Shin telepathic warnings. Naturally, the military would be more interested in Sara than in Mao, because it was Sara who hopped into the Bird Human and almost apocalypsed (yes, I used it as a verb) the Earth - and so "Dr Mao" would be able to pass on into society without too much scrutiny, all the time having a special link to the Protoculture after being transfused and reborn. The fact that the APHOS incident was classified for such a long time plays into this as well, because keeping it secret would only help to eliminate any evidence of Mao being connected to it.

Side note: I noticed in Zero, Mao responded to trauma by regressing into an unresponsive, thumbsucking fetal position - perhaps Ranka's dissociative amnesia is a hereditary condition?

On to another topic: Brera Sterne. Obviously a cyborg, and connected to Ranka in a way that screams "family." He works for an outside source, who we're fairly certain is Grace & Co, and who holds something from his past over him as a means of extortion. If we're to assume he's a blood-relative of Ranka, then perhaps he was rescued from the same fleet after being left for dead, and was repaired using cybernetics? I don't want to draw similarities to Gray Fox from Metal Gear, but he does seem to have that amnesiac good-guy-being-manipulated thing going for him at the moment.

Coupled with Galaxy's disappearance (conveniently after Sheryl got famous on it for her singing?), I'm thinking Brera (and potentially others like him?) is being used to keep the Vajra as much a secret as possible until whoever is behind everything figures out the way to control them - using Sheryl, or perhaps Ranka once her special nature is realized.

If the Vajra are an out-of-control mistake by a power-hungry military group (we know in this series, military powers can be privatized), then they would most certainly want to keep it under wraps. Vajra can reproduce, as evidenced by the ship Brera toasted, so it doesn't seem out of the question that they could have gotten free and multiplied in that Weyland-Yutani sort of way. And if Sheryl was their (failed) attempt at a song-based control mechanism, they have to either completely eliminate their experiment or find another way to handle it.

Side note: Ranka sings from the heart and is able to get peoples' (and Vajra) attention, but also caught the attention of the green squirrel (who seems tied to the Vajra in some way) and got it to sit down in patient observance. Sheryl, on the other hand, would have grown up on Galaxy singing to people in a sterile chemistry lab, rather than the slice of nature that is Frontier. Sara Nome made a point of her song being tied to the life around her; the military, however, would have only witnessed "singing controls alien technology," so they'd probably want to produce a pop idol rather than a nature-centric folk singer (it worked for at least two previous series, ya know?)

Reason for edit: Added last paragraph.

Edited June 9, 2008 by Dio

[Isamu Starkiller]

Some have theorized she's a clone of Mao, but I think it goes slightly deeper than that. I think Sheryl is actually a clone of Sara Nome, herself. Dr. Hasford's stolen blood sample had to have been put to use for something, and what better place to try and push some scientific limits than on Galaxy, where technology is en vogue and research considered illegal elsewhere is commonplace? The NUNS is in charge now, but it's more like a confederation than a single governing body (hence different laws applying in different fleets), and the APHOS incident was declassified relatively recently as of Frontier, so perhaps some group took interest and tried to recreate the circumstances.

I'm not about to jump on the good ship speculation just yet, BUT, if this theory does come to fruition, that line in episode 3 from Sheryl about luck and her making her own destiny would be such sweet irony!

[Morpheus]

I want to ask something.

What is ice cream made of......j/k

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

Ok, the real one We know that the Vajra is attracted to Ranka song, the question is, what they will do to her? Will they eat her (Noooooo...), kidnap her and place it into a control room like what AFOS did to Sara, or used her in their breeding program (Noooooo.......).

And also there's a relation with the purple crystal thingy, IIRC AFOS didn't have those crystals.

[Zinjo]

Er...

Huh? I'm not sure I understand how a comment that the yellow Vajra probably don't control the big Vajra ties into Skull Squadron and the Koenig Monster.

In terms of a squad based system. They could just as easily have their fighters (Hammerheads) and mobile artillery (Lobsters), similar to the set up the SMS uses.

As far as similarities between the red Vajra and the Monster are concerned, I don't think there's enough there. The Koenig Monster is designed as a back-line support unit. Ozma spends the first part of the episode 7 fight clearing a path for Canaria (sp?) to reach the Dulfim. The red Vajra, on the other hand, seems to be a heavy front-line unit that specializes in punching through enemy lines. The Koenig Monster is capable of massive devestation, but it's pretty helpless against enemy units that manage to get up close. The red Vajra, on the other hand, is very capable of protecting itself against enemy units that get close.

That's a testament to the Lobster's superiority as a fighting unit. It has both long range and close combat capabilities. The Koenig isn't far behind, but not nearly as versatile.

It also occasionally operates independently, as we see in episode 4.

That is not supported by what has been revealed. The unit requires external input to function. When in the lab it was cut off from it's control source and essentially shut down, but when it was activated inadvertently by Ranka and Sheryl it began to react, possibly by some very basic, almost instinctual programming, like "Escape and return to base". We have no idea how far away they can be controlled, so it would be difficult to prove the idea that they act independently.

[flabortast]

Are the people responsible for the creation of the Vajra repeating the same mistake 50 years ago? Is another civil war about to break? Will humanity be judged once more as it was 50 years ago? Who will be the new Sara and Birdman. Will be they asked the same question; "Have humans stopped fighting with each other?". Will there be another attempt on annihilating humanity like in 2008? Do the Vajra have the same dormant program as the Birdman in their genes "Destroy Humanity if they are a threat to the Universe"

[Master Dex]

Technically humanity has stopped fighting itself, humanity fights giants and vampire like Spirita eaters... oh and giant lobsters. Although you could make a case that humanity could still be fighting amongst itself, such as the events of VF-X2 and other things.

[d3v]

Are the people responsible for the creation of the Vajra repeating the same mistake 50 years ago? Is another civil war about to break? Will humanity be judged once more as it was 50 years ago? Who will be the new Sara and Birdman. Will be they asked the same question; "Have humans stopped fighting with each other?". Will there be another attempt on annihilating humanity like in 2008? Do the Vajra have the same dormant program as the Birdman in their genes "Destroy Humanity if they are a threat to the Universe"

Technically humanity has stopped fighting itself, humanity fights giants and vampire like Spirita eaters... oh and giant lobsters. Although you could make a case that humanity could still be fighting amongst itself, such as the events of VF-X2 and other things.

One thing I am curious about is would the APHOS have sung the same tune if it knew that within a year, humanity would be pwned, camped and teabagged by a race of jolly green giants?

Edited June 9, 2008 by d3v

[Master Dex]

Not only that but a race of giants created by the same people that made the APHOS itself.

Like...

Aphos: You know I was going to kill you, but the Zentradi already did most of that and I don't want to seem anymore responsible since technically... ehh.. well it is my creators fault... so we'll just pretend this didn't happen, k?

Humanity: Screw you chicken wing...

Zentradi: Oh right, we're the only ones to blame, you were going to do the same thing but we beat you and now we feel bad about it because we like pop music.. yeah just go fly away before we beat you up too...

Edited June 9, 2008 by Master Dex

[junior]

That is not supported by what has been revealed. The unit requires external input to function. When in the lab it was cut off from it's control source and essentially shut down, but when it was activated inadvertently by Ranka and Sheryl it began to react, possibly by some very basic, almost instinctual programming, like "Escape and return to base". We have no idea how far away they can be controlled, so it would be difficult to prove the idea that they act independently.

You're confusing the Vajra in episodes 4 and 5. Episode 5 is the Vajra "corpse" in the isolation tank that's apparently accidentally activated by Ranka's singing.

Episode 4, on the other hand, is the red Vajra that folds in (the bridge bunnies detect the fold) during the middle of Alto's mock combat with the Pixie team. That's the one that I meant when I stated that a red Vajra was acting independently. It's a Vajra that's in the middle of a combat zone with no yellow Vajra in sight. Obviously it's getting orders from somewhere (because as Leon states the red Vajra are essentially mindless), but it doesn't appear that a yellow Vajra is directing it as there are none in the area.

My current guess is that Vajra that we've seen are being controlled through some sort of fold-space communications link similar to what the Frontier leadership uses to watch the battle in near real-time in episode 7. Presumeably the Vajra on the battlefield are able to look after themselves without immediate orders, and the controlling intelligence focuses on strategy and tactics.

One thing I am curious about is would the APHOS have sung the same tune if it knew that within a year, humanity would be pwned, camped and teabagged by a race of jolly green giants?

Or that, so far as we've seen, humanity is actually the most peaceful race in the galaxy? I find it highly ironic that the AFOS was threatening to wipe out humanity for being too warlike when human culture ends up being the thing that can convince the warlike Zentraedi to stop fighting.

[d3v]

Not only that but a race of giants created by the same people that made the APHOS itself.

Like...

Aphos: You know I was going to kill you, but the Zentradi already did most of that and I don't want to seem anymore responsible since technically... ehh.. well it is my creators fault... so we'll just pretend this didn't happen, k?

Humanity: Screw you chicken wing...

Zentradi: Oh right, we're the only ones to blame, you were going to do the same thing but we beat you and now we feel bad about it because we like pop music.. yeah just go fly away before we beat you up too...

Actually, at that point, I don't thing its just the music that's keeping them inline. I'm sure they were enamoured at the other aspects or "culture," heck even Kamjin enjoyed a bit of "culture" with Laplamiz. And I'm pretty sure more than a few of them preferred doing "culture" with more experienced miclones than with equally clumsy former giants.

Edited June 9, 2008 by d3v

[Zinjo]

You're confusing the Vajra in episodes 4 and 5. Episode 5 is the Vajra "corpse" in the isolation tank that's apparently accidentally activated by Ranka's singing.

Episode 4, on the other hand, is the red Vajra that folds in (the bridge bunnies detect the fold) during the middle of Alto's mock combat with the Pixie team. That's the one that I meant when I stated that a red Vajra was acting independently. It's a Vajra that's in the middle of a combat zone with no yellow Vajra in sight. Obviously it's getting orders from somewhere (because as Leon states the red Vajra are essentially mindless), but it doesn't appear that a yellow Vajra is directing it as there are none in the area.

That is assuming they require line of sight to be able to control them. We simply don't know what range is required to control them. This isn't discounting that they could have artificial programming for limited missions, however we can't be sure of it. When the lobster had it's head shot off by Micheal the hammerheads and the lobster bugged out pretty quickly. Why? We don't know yet, possibly the primary transmitter is located in the head.

My current guess is that Vajra that we've seen are being controlled through some sort of fold-space communications link similar to what the Frontier leadership uses to watch the battle in near real-time in episode 7. Presumeably the Vajra on the battlefield are able to look after themselves without immediate orders, and the controlling intelligence focuses on strategy and tactics.

That is possible, but not confirmable at the moment.

Or that, so far as we've seen, humanity is actually the most peaceful race in the galaxy? I find it highly ironic that the AFOS was threatening to wipe out humanity for being too warlike when human culture ends up being the thing that can convince the warlike Zentraedi to stop fighting.

If you ignore the Zolan...

Was it really human culture or just culture itself? The PC had culture, however the Zentreadi were deprived of it since they were "tools" and I suspect the PC knew that any sort of culture would make them less maliable for their purposes.

[junior]

That is assuming they require line of sight to be able to control them. We simply don't know what range is required to control them. This isn't discounting that they could have artificial programming for limited missions, however we can't be sure of it. When the lobster had it's head shot off by Micheal the hammerheads and the lobster bugged out pretty quickly. Why? We don't know yet, possibly the primary transmitter is located in the head.

It's also when the NUNS finally arrives. At that moment, the Vajra on hand (iirc, a single red and 3-4 yellows) became heavily outnumbered.

That is possible, but not confirmable at the moment.

Given that we've got at least the one instance of a red Vajra showing up without any yellows, I'd say that it's more likely than the idea that the yellows are controlling the reds.

[Mr March]

I'm a little hazy on the whole "control" thing. When you all talk of "control", do you mean to "command" like Ozuma commands his squadron by giving orders to Alto, Mikhail and Luca? Or are you talking about some perpetual control signal whereby the Red Vajra directly dictates the actions of each Yellow Vajra? Or, is "control" defined as a situation similar to Luca's "control" of his three Ghost fighters?

I think at the very least it's clear the Yellow Vajra act on their own. When the Red Vajra was killed inside Island 1, the Yellow Vajra within the dome continued to act on their own.

Edited June 9, 2008 by Mr March

[Master Dex]

Actually, at that point, I don't thing its just the music that's keeping them inline. I'm sure they were enamoured at the other aspects or "culture," heck even Kamjin enjoyed a bit of "culture" with Laplamiz. And I'm pretty sure more than a few of them preferred doing "culture" with more experienced miclones than with equally clumsy former giants.

The conversation bit was more or less a joke, but I know what you mean.

[Kronnang Dunn]

Or that, so far as we've seen, humanity is actually the most peaceful race in the galaxy? I find it highly ironic that the AFOS was threatening to wipe out humanity for being too warlike when human culture ends up being the thing that can convince the warlike Zentraedi to stop fighting.

Hehehe... Give me a break. Global wars, Reaction Weapons... and u call humanity peaceful? We have culture but we are warlike. In fact... I believe the whole point of Frontier is that humanity is heading the same end the Protoculture met eons ago...

Check the analogy...

Protoculture => Extinct due to its creations, the Zentradi...

Humanity => Extinct due to its creations, the Vajra...

After seeing episode 10, I rewatched Zero and picked up the ff. tidbits from the Mayan creation legend.

Then, the bird human came down and cut its own head off.

The blood that poured from his neck became a female, Rooy Waka.

Rooy Kanu and Rooy Waka joined together and gave birth to many children.

After giving birth to their children, Rooy Waka left and returned home to the stars, which was far across the ocean.

"My dear wife, please come back to me."

The bird human replied and said,

"My dear husband Rooy Kanu... The day I come back will be when the destiny of the stars crumble.

It is the day the song of destruction will echo into the world."

The second half of the legend where Rooy Waka (the female formed from the blood of the Bird Human) leaves for the stars intrigues me.

Sara clearly "left for the stars" at the end of Zero. The question now is whether that bit about returning when "the destiny of the stars crumble" and the "day when the song of destruction will echo into the world," has any relation to Frontier?

Now onto a less "grand" topic, concerning Brera's past. I have a feeling that if Ozma does die as many have speculated, it'll be after he meets Brera and figures out who he is but before he is able to tell Ranka.

I noticed something...

Rooy KANu

Rooy WaKA

And also there's a relation with the purple crystal thingy, IIRC AFOS didn't have those crystals.

Actually the AFOS (Artifact From Outer Space... NOT APHOS) had a purple crystaline substance in its "torso" structure that looked like it was made of Super Dimensional Resonance Crystal a lot... (remember the spiral where its blood poured from... hell, the whole thing was purple!).

Edited June 9, 2008 by Kronnang Dunn

[Zinjo]

I'm a little hazy on the whole "control" thing. When you all talk of "control", do you mean to "command" like Ozuma commands his squadron by giving orders to Alto, Mikhail and Luca? Or are you talking about some perpetual control signal whereby the Red Vajra directly dictates the actions of each Yellow Vajra? Or, is "control" defined as a situation similar to Luca's "control" of his three Ghost fighters?

I think at the very least it's clear the Yellow Vajra act on their own. When the Red Vajra was killed inside Island 1, the Yellow Vajra within the dome continued to act on their own.

The other way round.

We have been told that the Lobsters are essentially mindless bioweapons. The control I speak of is similar to Luca and the Ghosts. I am doubtful a Lobster can act independently for an extended amount of time (depending how detailed any existing program parameters are).

I will concede that it is possible for them to act without direction IF they have pre-programmed mission permeters, but in a large fluid combat situation or for an extended period of time, I am highly doubtful that is possible.

[Impreszive]

That whole near extinction by the Zentraedi might have had nothing to do with changing humanity's attitude? Ne?

:-)