How does a Variable Fighter move?

[badboy00z]

Can you explain a flat spin and a "wrong axis"? That move is really weird now that I think about it. Doesn't a fighter or any aircraft need to be moving forward at any given time?

[hobbes221]

Can you explain a flat spin and a "wrong axis"? That move is really weird now that I think about it. Doesn't a fighter or any aircraft need to be moving forward at any given time?

As to the 'wrong axis' the 25 was going up as to going down. And as for always moving forward, if you have enough thrust you can do almost anything you want to, look on youtube for Mig-29 OVT to see what I mean.

[jollyreaper]

Ah, my beloved variable fighters. I love them even though they make zero sense.

There are several shortcomings in the basic Valkyrie design, persisting into these modern reinterpretations, that I've never been able to wrap my head around.

First, there's the matter of just how impossibly strong they are. Their structure takes a pounding that no material known to modern science could possibly sustain. On one hand, we see ships take damage from shrapnel and weapons but we also see stuff like Valkyries flying through buildings intact, falls and bashes that would tear apart the real world aircraft they're based on, etc. While the show makes no mention of the armor being special, there would have to be something crazy to it.

Second, how do the pilots pilot the damn things? Back in the Robotech days, there was a jihad between fans of the show and fans of the novels. The novels invented a few things, notably the "thinking cap" neural interface. Those weren't present in the show but do make sense upon reflection. There's no way that anyone could pilot a combat mecha like that with only manual controls. Then again, if you're piloting the battleoid in brain control, why are you flying the fighter version with stick and throttle?

A third impossibility, where the hell is the pilot in battleoid mode? Presumably, the pilot's seat is mounted on a 90 degree swivel. When he initiates a transformation, he rotates back and then is raised into a mecha cockpit area that sits behind the fighter cockpit when in plane mode. Once the unit transforms, the pilot is sitting in the chest. (this was illustrated in a few instances when Zentraedi tore into the mecha to get the pilot.) But there's not enough room in the mecha to account for such a cockpit! I remember puzzling over this as a kid with Jetfire, the Transformers version of the venerable Valkyrie. There simply is not enough room to account for a human cockpit. The torso area may have enough room if it was just a robot but it clamshells open to become the ventral surface of the fighter, there's just no room for a cockpit. And there's also the question of where the backseater would sit. We saw that there are two-seater Valkyrie models and the backseater has a chair just like the pilot, one that can raise out of the head of the mecha.

The fourth impossibility stems from the vulnerability of the cockpit. While it would have been too complicated to include in the toys, an armor shield is supposed to move over the cockpit canopy. Aside from the fact that there's no way a hard, three-dimensional shape to cover it could actually fit recessed behind the cockpit as shown in the animation, by nature the covering is very thin and means that one solid blow to the "protected" cockpit could kill the pilot or, at the very least, prevent transformation.

Hmm! Interesting problems.

[jollyreaper]

So what kind of fuel do Valks run on??

The bigger question is "where do they get their reaction mass?"

Since they essentially have fusion reactors inside, in atmosphere they work like air-breathing nuclear jets. The USAF had something they called a flying crowbar in the 50's, a design for a nuclear cruise missile. Works just like a regular jet except instead of using avgas to superheat air to shoot out the back, they used a naked fission reactor. A weapon like that could fly for years and leave a trail of radioactive death streaming behind it like you wouldn't believe. The Valks would be clean but operate under the same principle.

Once in space, those engines would have to become pure rockets. They're still heating up something to throw out the back for thrust but now that "something" all has to come from internal tanks. Those engines have crazy-high thrust values and don't seem to be skimping on the reactants so where's all the reaction mass stored? The denser the better, of course, so they could potentially be using water. But you can only store so much water in the ship. Modern rockets are 90% fuel by weight. The only way to get more bang out of the same mass is to throw it out the back of your ship harder than before. Just how hard are these nuclear engines pushing it?

[VF5SS]

First, there's the matter of just how impossibly strong they are. Their structure takes a pounding that no material known to modern science could possibly sustain. On one hand, we see ships take damage from shrapnel and weapons but we also see stuff like Valkyries flying through buildings intact, falls and bashes that would tear apart the real world aircraft they're based on, etc. While the show makes no mention of the armor being special, there would have to be something crazy to it.

There is some mention in DYRL of them being constructed of space materials and "hyper-carbon." Science fiction is generally full of many kinds of super materials. Valkyries also employ a kind of strengthening field called Energy Converting Armor for additional protection. It is true that Valkyries can survive a lot of punishments without any power. See Alto's VF-25 crashing on Galia 4.

There's no way that anyone could pilot a combat mecha like that with only manual controls. Then again, if you're piloting the battleoid in brain control, why are you flying the fighter version with stick and throttle?

Let's forget about Robotech's stupidity. The controls are not entirely manual. Many of the mechanical profiles mention dedicated control systems for Battroid mode while the YF-19's profile even mentions a Super-AI control system. Through the use of pre-programmed macros, pilot input, and computer assistance it would be possible to abstract many complex movements into simply controls. We do this all this time in video games featuring robots. Granted, those robots exist in a controlled virtual environment, but imagine better computers with the ability to adapt to new situations based on previous data and simulations. Valkyries are generally deployed in a few set environments, all of which have been repeatedly tested in and out of combat by each generation of Valkyrie. By the time the VF-0 was completed, most environments it would be designed to operate in would have been already become a part of its total control system. Even today we have the basics of neural networks and "thinking computers." In the end what is all the Valkyrie itself sees other than data which is to be sorted, assessed, and used to make logical predictions?

A third impossibility, where the hell is the pilot in battleoid mode? Presumably, the pilot's seat is mounted on a 90 degree swivel. When he initiates a transformation, he rotates back and then is raised into a mecha cockpit area that sits behind the fighter cockpit when in plane mode. Once the unit transforms, the pilot is sitting in the chest. (this was illustrated in a few instances when Zentraedi tore into the mecha to get the pilot.) But there's not enough room in the mecha to account for such a cockpit! I remember puzzling over this as a kid with Jetfire, the Transformers version of the venerable Valkyrie. There simply is not enough room to account for a human cockpit. The torso area may have enough room if it was just a robot but it clamshells open to become the ventral surface of the fighter, there's just no room for a cockpit. And there's also the question of where the backseater would sit. We saw that there are two-seater Valkyrie models and the backseater has a chair just like the pilot, one that can raise out of the head of the mecha.

It is best not to use models and toys to approximate the actual design. They are limited by the materials available. The cockpits in modern Valkyries use many thin LCD style monitors and fly-by-light controls allowing them to cram all of the mechanisms into a small space.

The fourth impossibility stems from the vulnerability of the cockpit. While it would have been too complicated to include in the toys, an armor shield is supposed to move over the cockpit canopy. Aside from the fact that there's no way a hard, three-dimensional shape to cover it could actually fit recessed behind the cockpit as shown in the animation, by nature the covering is very thin and means that one solid blow to the "protected" cockpit could kill the pilot or, at the very least, prevent transformation.

The armored shield seen on the VF-1 has been approximated in many toys and models. There actually is enough space for it behind the cockpit section, it is just poorly depicted in most media. You have to remember that most of the design sketches were done very quickly without the aid of computer aided design. Modern designs like the VF-0 and VF-25 are fully realized using CG models. Although sometimes clipping occurs, but it's generally not noticeable in the final product.

[d3v]

The bigger question is "where do they get their reaction mass?"

Since they essentially have fusion reactors inside, in atmosphere they work like air-breathing nuclear jets. The USAF had something they called a flying crowbar in the 50's, a design for a nuclear cruise missile. Works just like a regular jet except instead of using avgas to superheat air to shoot out the back, they used a naked fission reactor. A weapon like that could fly for years and leave a trail of radioactive death streaming behind it like you wouldn't believe. The Valks would be clean but operate under the same principle.

Once in space, those engines would have to become pure rockets. They're still heating up something to throw out the back for thrust but now that "something" all has to come from internal tanks. Those engines have crazy-high thrust values and don't seem to be skimping on the reactants so where's all the reaction mass stored? The denser the better, of course, so they could potentially be using water. But you can only store so much water in the ship. Modern rockets are 90% fuel by weight. The only way to get more bang out of the same mass is to throw it out the back of your ship harder than before. Just how hard are these nuclear engines pushing it?

I remember being in an argument about this once in the old mecha thread, (too lazy to look it up though). Things to consider though, OT reaction engines probably have high thrust values, lack of aerodynamic drag in space means you don't need to burn to move forward which means you save your fuel (which is possibly stored in some exotic pressurized tanks, like what's being developed for hydrogen powered vehicles) for maneuvering.

Personally though, I'd rather not go into length about it, gotta think about the poor catgirls.

Edited August 5, 2008 by d3v

[sucker4meltrans]

in the SDF Macross series VF-1s are always shown with the ability to reach orbit on their own power untill the episode where they go to capture the factory satelite. that episode they have to use boosters to reach orbit.

[jollyreaper]

in the SDF Macross series VF-1s are always shown with the ability to reach orbit on their own power untill the episode where they go to capture the factory satelite. that episode they have to use boosters to reach orbit.

Yup. That always made me scratch my head. The Valks were shown as climbing into orbit along with the SDF-1 during the first flight after the Zentraedi attack.

The other part that didn't make sense is the claim the Zentraedi pods could not fly on their own in atmosphere. They could jump, sure, but not fly. Weird that they would design a weapon that could be used in space as a fighter as well as a ground mecha on a planet. Why bother with dragging those legs around in space if it's just going to be used as a fighter?

The other thing I could never quite wrap my head around, the battlepods are not that much taller than the Valk battleroids. The Zentraedi are pretty much as tall as the battleroids. And yet we're to imagine that they can cram an entire Zentraedi into one of those chicken walkers? Even if he was tucked tight in a cannonball pose he couldn't fit! And that's not even bringing up the impossibility of the officer pod like ol' Khyron used. In the Battletech fan-art the cockpit looks like a snug fit even for a "micronian" of the Inner Sphere so just how does a Zentraedi fit into it? It's not like the humanoid armors which are basically form-fitting and act like Starship Trooper suits.

The other thing that tends to get overlooked with the massive Zentraedi size, their ships aren't all that impressively huge when we think about them in human terms. Ok, so for round figures we'll say a human is 6ft tall on average, zentraedi 60ft tall so that's 10x bigger. Bretaii's flagship sure sounds impressive at 9 miles long but it's pretty much the equivalent of a human ship .9 miles long. A lot of space is wasted sizing to Zentraedi scale.

[grss1982]

Yup. That always made me scratch my head. The Valks were shown as climbing into orbit along with the SDF-1 during the first flight after the Zentraedi attack.

The other part that didn't make sense is the claim the Zentraedi pods could not fly on their own in atmosphere. They could jump, sure, but not fly. Weird that they would design a weapon that could be used in space as a fighter as well as a ground mecha on a planet. Why bother with dragging those legs around in space if it's just going to be used as a fighter?

The other thing I could never quite wrap my head around, the battlepods are not that much taller than the Valk battleroids. The Zentraedi are pretty much as tall as the battleroids. And yet we're to imagine that they can cram an entire Zentraedi into one of those chicken walkers? Even if he was tucked tight in a cannonball pose he couldn't fit! And that's not even bringing up the impossibility of the officer pod like ol' Khyron used. In the Battletech fan-art the cockpit looks like a snug fit even for a "micronian" of the Inner Sphere so just how does a Zentraedi fit into it? It's not like the humanoid armors which are basically form-fitting and act like Starship Trooper suits.

The other thing that tends to get overlooked with the massive Zentraedi size, their ships aren't all that impressively huge when we think about them in human terms. Ok, so for round figures we'll say a human is 6ft tall on average, zentraedi 60ft tall so that's 10x bigger. Bretaii's flagship sure sounds impressive at 9 miles long but it's pretty much the equivalent of a human ship .9 miles long. A lot of space is wasted sizing to Zentraedi scale.

IIRC, there was a comparisson pic of valks and bottle pods posted by a member here in MW. Did a quick google search and these were the two that I came up with:

[jollyreaper]

Let's forget about Robotech's stupidity. The controls are not entirely manual. Many of the mechanical profiles mention dedicated control systems for Battroid mode while the YF-19's profile even mentions a Super-AI control system. Through the use of pre-programmed macros, pilot input, and computer assistance it would be possible to abstract many complex movements into simply controls. We do this all this time in video games featuring robots. Granted, those robots exist in a controlled virtual environment, but imagine better computers with the ability to adapt to new situations based on previous data and simulations. Valkyries are generally deployed in a few set environments, all of which have been repeatedly tested in and out of combat by each generation of Valkyrie. By the time the VF-0 was completed, most environments it would be designed to operate in would have been already become a part of its total control system. Even today we have the basics of neural networks and "thinking computers." In the end what is all the Valkyrie itself sees other than data which is to be sorted, assessed, and used to make logical predictions?

Hey, I like Robotech!

The whole idea of macros controlled by joystick just doesn't make probable sense. You could get away with that explanation for flying, sure. There's talk of making non-pilot controllable aircraft by leaving the computer in charge of all flight controls and the human would just give "suggestions" via a joystick. That's basically now aerodynamically-unstable aircraft that are computer-controlled operate but the system (as yet unbuilt) they're currently talking about is supposed to dummy it up even more for civilians.

When we talk about robots, though, there's just too many actions to build a credible library of behaviors on. Just consider the raid on the Zentraedi battleship where Max puts on the guard's uniform, how exactly would something like that be preprogrammed? How could punches be preprogrammed? That sort of AI would have to be so advanced, the human could just stand on the ground outside of the mecha and shout instructions.

It is best not to use models and toys to approximate the actual design. They are limited by the materials available. The cockpits in modern Valkyries use many thin LCD style monitors and fly-by-light controls allowing them to cram all of the mechanisms into a small space.

True, but physics is physics. The Jetfire valk is one helluva toy. Everything is detailed there and there's simply not any space to be had. The animation tends to gloss over flaws and shortcomings in the physical toys. Remember how Megatron was awesome and scary in the toon but the toy was laughably dorky?

The armored shield seen on the VF-1 has been approximated in many toys and models. There actually is enough space for it behind the cockpit section, it is just poorly depicted in most media. You have to remember that most of the design sketches were done very quickly without the aid of computer aided design. Modern designs like the VF-0 and VF-25 are fully realized using CG models. Although sometimes clipping occurs, but it's generally not noticeable in the final product.

That's the thing that's nice about watching the CGI mecha, there are less animation screwups and shortcuts. I was such a stickler about this when I was a kid like the poor over-worked Koreans would miscolor a robot and I'd be upset.

[sushisystems]

It seems hard to imagine a radiant form of energy strengthening the molecular density of a solid object. But I get your point about the specially designed armor that can utilize this energy. It's pretty far-fetched indeed. Thanks for your entry, it cleared up some confusion.

But I would have also like it if the SWAG also acted as a universal conduit system that distributes power to all the VF's facilities. This would free up a lot of internal space for a variety of useful equipment, wouldn't you agree?

I don't think its pretty far fetched. Doesn't the armor follow E=MC^2, that is that energy can be converted into mass and vice versa?

[Rookie_One]

in the SDF Macross series VF-1s are always shown with the ability to reach orbit on their own power untill the episode where they go to capture the factory satelite. that episode they have to use boosters to reach orbit.

i think that it was mentionned that a booster was needed to reach orbit WITHOUT expanding all his fuel.

that probably mean that a VF-1 could reach orbit but should not have much fuel after, hence the need of a booster

[VF5SS]

Hey, I like Robotech!

get out

When we talk about robots, though, there's just too many actions to build a credible library of behaviors on. Just consider the raid on the Zentraedi battleship where Max puts on the guard's uniform, how exactly would something like that be preprogrammed? How could punches be preprogrammed? That sort of AI would have to be so advanced, the human could just stand on the ground outside of the mecha and shout instructions.

Within the confines of any kind of series, especially robot shows, there is often embellishment. Max putting on an enemy uniform is one of those things that was just there to be silly. Honestly though, how can punches be preprogrammed? Same way you program a welding robot to repeat the same task. You could probably tell it where to punch, but most Valkyries would punch in the same or similar ways. The human pilot is there to utilize the machine's skill sets in a proper way.

True, but physics is physics. The Jetfire valk is one helluva toy. Everything is detailed there and there's simply not any space to be had. The animation tends to gloss over flaws and shortcomings in the physical toys.

Jetfire is not a helluva toy. It's almost 25 years old now. It is not a scale model, it's not based on any static schematics, and it is not meant to be taken as more than a toy based on the VF-1 design. Even the animated design is based on two or three hastily drawn quarter views.

[d3v]

in the SDF Macross series VF-1s are always shown with the ability to reach orbit on their own power untill the episode where they go to capture the factory satelite. that episode they have to use boosters to reach orbit.

There's a difference between simply getting into space (passing the Kármán line) and achieving orbit. Sure you can pass the Kármán line, but if you don't have enough horizontal velocity, you'll still fall back down once you stop producing downward thrust. The boosters they used were probably to get them to Earth's orbital velocity which is well beyond the Mach 3 that the VF-1 can reach in Earth's atmosphere.

[rapierdragon]

Slightly off topic, but funny point about piloting a VF:

In one of the Robotech novels they talk about the absolute need for teh "thinking cap" (the helmet with brain-scanners or whatever the Macross version is called)...

Why?

Just think about it as you read these tidbits:

-Early WW2 fighters has what, a dozen controls and dials in total?

-By 1970 the average fighter had over 30 switches + a dozen dials + other controls.

-By 2000 the average fighter (f-15 thru F-21 or whatnot) has over 50 switches alone... nevermind the over five dozen or so dials, and dozen or so controls... (ever been in a 747's cockpit? or a space-shuttle's cockpit? or seen a movie with said cockpit?)

Last I checked, humans only had two eyes, two hands, and two feet.

Hell.... you'd be lucky if you could find the "start" button within the first twenty minutes of searching.

[sucker4meltrans]

i almost wanted to stop reading rapierdragon's post when he said the R word but the design trend in modern air craft cockpits is touch screen displays. this cuts down a lot on the individual switches and dials. even in modern luxury cars like bmw and benz with their complicated entertainment systems and other electronic nanny devices most of the minor least used controls are on the touch screen and brought up with menu navigation, only the most common and important controls are left on the dash. i can imagine in macross they have furthered this even more. as far as a battroid putting on clothies and doing hand to hand combat i imagine there is a ton of AI programming. the pilot tell the valk to punch and where and the battroid AI carries out the movements it needs to.

[Mr March]

A certain amount of creative license is required for nearly all the mecha anime shows. Most simply don't have any kind of interface that would permit the kind of fine, human like control that we see displayed in giant humanoid robot anime. Call it a creative conceit.

Having said that, Macross has shown a plethora of techniques for reducing pilot workload when controlling a Valkyrie. All the Valkyries use sophisticated HOTAS systems that place all the control is the pilots hands and feet without the need to access other controls during a combat situation. Pilot feedback and hands-off controls have also been shown in most of the series, like eye-tracking targeting shown in Macross Zero and Frontier as well as motion sensitive controls shown in Macross Plus. The YF-19 also makes mention of a Super AI control system that likely handles a lot of the vehicle functions autonomously. In Macross Frontier we also see both optical controls that react to the pilot's eye line (Ozuma zooms in on Ranka in episode 2 just by glancing) and all the communication displays in Macross Frontier appear voice activated. The Valkyries also appear to have full holographic targeting systems that aren't limited to a HUD but rather track targets along the inside of the cockpit canopy (DYRL?, Macross Plus, Macross 7, Macross Frontier). Lastly are the exotic control schemes like the BDS/BDI systems in Macross Plus and the cybernetic virtual interface shown in Macross Frontier.

[sucker4meltrans]

In Macross Plus the throttle and stick in the YF-19 were shown with what looked like touch sensitive pads covering them. In Patloabor the mecha were controled by pumping and other manipulations of feet pedals to control the legs and feet, and gloves were put on to control arms and hands in fine movements. The orginal mobile suit gundam had just foot pedals and a pair of throttles to slide back and forth. In Char's Counterattack mecha had track balls with buttons on them at the end of joy sticks with foot pedals. Nu type mobile suits of course had pshyic controls, but they also developed systems to the pilot didn't need to be a nu type but could also have a limited about of thought control. Macross series have by far the most realistic if not the most descriptive controls.

[Mr March]

In Macross Plus the throttle and stick in the YF-19 were shown with what looked like touch sensitive pads covering them.

Actually, they are motion sensitive. You'll note the when Isamu uses them he activates various functions by simply moving his fingers over the control without touching it. That might suggest that other controls inside the cockpit may be motion sensitive as well, activating various functions based upon the motion of the pilot's head, arms or legs.

Edited August 7, 2008 by Mr March

[Shaka_Z]

lest we forget to mention the control layout of an appleseed landmate. those mecha are slaved directly to the movements of the operator, with pilot legs in the thighs of the mecha, and an extra smaller set of arms. I imagine the ex-gear of a vf-25 might be a means to apply those techniques to a much larger vehicle

[Chief Guld Goa Bowman]

A certain amount of creative license is required for nearly all the mecha anime shows. Most simply don't have any kind of interface that would permit the kind of fine, human like control that we see displayed in giant humanoid robot anime. Call it a creative conceit.

Having said that, Macross has shown a plethora of techniques for reducing pilot workload when controlling a Valkyrie. All the Valkyries use sophisticated HOTAS systems that place all the control is the pilots hands and feet without the need to access other controls during a combat situation. Pilot feedback and hands-off controls have also been shown in most of the series, like eye-tracking targeting shown in Macross Zero and Frontier as well as motion sensitive controls shown in Macross Plus. The YF-19 also makes mention of a Super AI control system that likely handles a lot of the vehicle functions autonomously. In Macross Frontier we also see both optical controls that react to the pilot's eye line (Ozuma zooms in on Ranka in episode 2 just by glancing) and all the communication displays in Macross Frontier appear voice activated. The Valkyries also appear to have full holographic targeting systems that aren't limited to a HUD but rather track targets along the inside of the cockpit canopy (DYRL?, Macross Plus, Macross 7, Macross Frontier). Lastly are the exotic control schemes like the BDS/BDI systems in Macross Plus and the cybernetic virtual interface shown in Macross Frontier.

My thoughts exactly, from what I have seen in other mecha anime, VFs have the most creative control schemes for instance the VF-17 Nightmare one of my favs.

[jollyreaper]

My thoughts exactly, from what I have seen in other mecha anime, VFs have the most creative control schemes for instance the VF-17 Nightmare one of my favs.

The problem with modern fighters is a matter of information overload. In WWII, fighters were vectored on intercept by the ground or they just went out on control and used the mark 1 eyeball to locate targets. It's funny to note that in the 30's many people assumed dogfights could not happen because the newer monoplanes were so much faster than the WWI models. Well, dogfights did happen but things have grown more complicated.

Aircraft like the F-86 were still from the WWII school, gunfighters with similar tactics to WWII. The SAC version of the F-86 dropped the guns in favor of a multi-rocket pack, unguided rockets. The idea was that the F-86 would locate an incoming Soviet bomber, obtain the optimum firing solution and ripple-fire the rockets. (the pack was stored below and forward of the cockpit, descending for firing position.) The idea is that any one of these rockets could knock down a bomber and the fighter has fired a dozen of them.

The later model that evolved was two-seat fighters, a pilot and a radar intercept officer. The reason being is that the radar was considered too complicated for a pilot to mess with while flying the aircraft. So F-4's had a Guy in Back, F-14's the same. Attack aircraft like the A-6 had a dedicated navigator/bombardier due to the workload. The Air Force figured the F-15 didn't need one but the F-15E Strike Eagle variant put one back in due to the extra systems. F-18 did without a radar guy, same with the F-16, F-22. It was assumed that the systems were simplified enough that the pilot could multitask.

Modern combat choppers use the pilot/gunner model. The Cobra, the first combat chopper was built that way, same with soviet birds like the Hind, same with the Apache. The pilot flew the bird, all the gunner had to do was look for stuff to shoot at. The Army figured trying to do both at once would lead to a lot of crashed choppers. The Comanche did away with that because the information fusion technology was sufficient that they thought the pilot could fly and monitor the sensors at the same time.

A modern jet fighter can cover hundreds of miles in minutes at supersonic speeds, can engage targets beyond visual range, can detect and track targets a hundred miles out. An F-22 is supposed to be able to take sensor data from a dozen sources and display them on an integrated track for the pilot. This means that it can fuse data from the radar, aircraft's skin sensors, feeds from AWACS, JSTARS, satellite, local air defense, other F-22's, take all of that and present one unified target plot. By way of comparison, this is giving the pilot the same kind of knowledge as a gamer has with a computer RTS. When fog of war is turned on, you only see as much of the map as your units can see but you have perfect information. A scout encounters an enemy unit on the corner of the map? You see the enemy, what it is, where it's going, etc.

As for controlling the giant mecha, there would have to be a neural interface. But even at that, the G's would kill a pilot. Remember when Rick/Hikaru toppled his mecha over outside Minmei's apartment? The impact would be no different from getting kicked down stairs while tied to a chair. There's no cushioning from that kind of impact. It's the same reason why airborne troops don't drop inside their vehicles, the vehicles are dropped separately and the soldiers land under their on chutes -- if they dropped inside the vehicles, they'd crush their spines under the impact.

[sucker4meltrans]

well we would assume that overtechnology was built in to the pilot's chair in valks and that the seat absorbed enough energy to keep the pilot from getting beat up.