How does a Variable Fighter move?

[kanedaestes]

Hey before i had a good paying job and access to real macross stuff i picked up anything with robotech on it including the novels. They arent bad, just not that good either especially after seeing more and more macross shows and sequels,

[Mr March]

JBO

Thanks for going through it all again

I definitely understand better what you meant. In order's of magnitude, even an inefficient anti-matter bomb would be more powerful than a similarly sized fission/fusion bomb.

The only thing that concerns me is that the underlying process of the OverTechnology reaction engine is described as "extreme efficiency" and even with a very advanced reactor design that somehow manages to collide every atom of matter with every atom of anti-matter reactant in the core (I'd really like to know how that could be accomplished), the anti-matter reaction itself only produces 50% usable energy. To my mind, the language of the Reaction technology leads me to believe they get a 99% return on any fuel they input into the reactor.

[JB0]

JBO

Thanks for going through it all again

I definitely understand better what you meant. In order's of magnitude, even an inefficient anti-matter bomb would be more powerful than a similarly sized fission/fusion bomb.

The only thing that concerns me is that the underlying process of the OverTechnology reaction engine is described as "extreme efficiency" and even with a very advanced reactor design that somehow manages to collide every atom of matter with every atom of anti-matter reactant in the core (I'd really like to know how that could be accomplished), the anti-matter reaction itself only produces 50% usable energy. To my mind, the language of the Reaction technology leads me to believe they get a 99% return on any fuel they input into the reactor.

Aren't the power plants still labelled thermonuclear?

(I'd stick with fusion powerplants anyways personally, even if all the technical hurdles were overcome. It's just so much safer when you don't need a tank of antimatter lying around. But that's just me.)

Either way...

Using overtechnology/anime magic, I can think of ways to make an antimatter reactor vastly more effective.

Less extreme gravity manipulation than you'd need for a weapon could weight things in your favor.

Using antiparticles or anti-ions instead of electrically neutral antimatter makes manipulation easier, as well as making the fuel and antifuel naturally attracted to each other.

Or you could just flood the core with an excess of normal matter to ensure the antimatter had a target. Since antimatter will naturally react, maintaining carefully controlled conditions isn't necessary. You can just flood the core with gas and let nature take it's course.

Especially if you're using charged fuel instead of neutral fuel. A 100% reaction is inevitable in those conditions(or so close to 100 that it doesn't really matter).

The biggest concern is making sure it reacts with FUEL instead of the reactor vessel.

And even if only half of the energy released by an antimatter reaction can be harnessed, you're still getting vastly more energy released than you would from a fusion reaction(fission and fusion reactions both use E=mc^2 for their energy, they just have a lot less matter undergoing the conversion to energy). So arguably, an antimatter reactor would be more efficient by default.

[JB0]

Hey before i had a good paying job and access to real macross stuff i picked up anything with robotech on it including the novels. They arent bad, just not that good either especially after seeing more and more macross shows and sequels,

I used to have a full set of RT novels myself.

And End of the Circle WAS bad.

Was just going with the joke and using the kind of flame that post would generate in a Robotech-oriented forum.

(from what I recall, the RT people have always been strongly divided along animation VS novelization lines. Sorta like us and Macross 7, just with a more even mix and loud people on both sides)

[Gubaba]

I used to have a full set of RT novels myself.

And End of the Circle WAS bad.

Was just going with the joke and using the kind of flame that post would generate in a Robotech-oriented forum.

(from what I recall, the RT people have always been strongly divided along animation VS novelization lines. Sorta like us and Macross 7, just with a more even mix and loud people on both sides)

Yes, yes it was.

And JB0! You're BOMBA!

[J.T. Silversmith]

It may be easier to get high efficiency pair annihilation reactions by using different types of anti-matter. Theoretically there are anti-matter equivalents to ANY sub atomic particle. For example Anti-electrons are called Positrons, Electrons are negatively charged, and positrons are positively charged, so their charges would pull them together, they annihilate each other, and release energy, In the form of two Gamma Ray Photons. Increasing the Kinetic energy of the system would produce more photons, or if fast enough, other larger anti particles. This process is not necessarily violent, and is what happens in a PET(Positron Emission Tomography) Scan. Positrons are injected into the bloodstream of the brain, and when neurons in the brain "fire" they give off electrons. These electrons react with the positrons, and the gamma rays are picked up by detectors in the scanner, allowing doctors to see what areas of the brain are active WITHOUT injury to the patient who is often couscous through the whole process. I do believe the Positrons remain in the brain until they all react in some way, so you could say it is very efficient reaction. So without knowing what types of particles are reacting, and what form of energy they give off, it is really difficult to speculate about anti matter weapons. Also Gamma ray photons are very energetic particles, enough so that they do not really interact with the human body, it just passes through you, so a massive Gamma ray burst would not make a good weapon against human beings, we are not dense enough or massive enough to absorb any. Though it might be more effective against a Zentradi, and would certainly work against the meter thick hull plating on most battleships.

[Mr March]

JB0

Yes, they always call it a thermonuclear reaction and "fusion" is specifically mentioned in the Macross Compendium translation. So that at least makes sense.

But that creates a load of problems itself. For example, I once read a detailed analysis in which a fan calculated the explosive yield for the SDF-1 Macross super-dimension-energy cannon that placed it's total destructive power in the teraton range. Whether one assumed fusion or anti-matter, neither power source was sufficient to power an energy beam that destructive. Thus it lead to the conclusion that perhaps pair-annihilation refers specifically to much more exotic (and potentially far more powerful) elements used in the reaction process. Perhaps super dimension energy and anti-super dimension energy?

Dwelling on that point for a moment, you seem to know a lot more about the tech than I do; could you also determine the explosive yield of the SDF-1 cannon, using the events of episode 1 as a benchmark?

[badboy00z]

Not sure if this was asked before but do valks need to be "refueled"? If so what do they use to power the "thermonuclear" engines??

[JB0]

JB0

Yes, they always call it a thermonuclear reaction and "fusion" is specifically mentioned in the Macross Compendium translation. So that at least makes sense.

But that creates a load of problems itself. For example, I once read a detailed analysis in which a fan calculated the explosive yield for the SDF-1 Macross super-dimension-energy cannon that placed it's total destructive power in the teraton range. Whether one assumed fusion or anti-matter, neither power source was sufficient to power an energy beam that destructive. Thus it lead to the conclusion that perhaps pair-annihilation refers specifically to much more exotic (and potentially far more powerful) elements used in the reaction process. Perhaps super dimension energy and anti-super dimension energy?

Hmmm...

I'd always wondered what the yield on that was. I knew it was obscene, and led to my questioning that the deployment of reaction weapons in Macross 7 would actually be an ESCALATION after the cannon failure.

Of course, that was based on the assumption that the Battle 7's cannon is similar in output.

The Macross' cannon could function as more of a catalyst than a standard cannon.

Rather than focusing internally-generated energy into a beam and directing it outward, it could tap into another dimension and pull energy from that dimension into our own, then focus and direct THAT energy.

It's implied(but not stated) that the barrier system works on a similar principle.

And we know the protoculture used an organic form of such technology to power the EVIL series(with disastrous results), as well as that a ship in a fold exists in "super dimension space" instead of our own universe.

That may be what they mean by a super-dimension-energy cannon.

It's a clever way to work around the laws of thermodynamics, as well. You can't get out more than you put in... UNLESS you're stealing it from another dimension, thus maintaining a net balance!

But it puts us back at square one with the Mac7 paradox. Assuming the Battle 7's cannon is similar to the SDF-1's, how the hell is reaction weaponry (of either flavor) an escalation? You'd need literally TONS of antimatter to generate a similar energy yield. And a bomb that massive simply won't be deliverable.

Dwelling on that point for a moment, you seem to know a lot more about the tech than I do; could you also determine the explosive yield of the SDF-1 cannon, using the events of episode 1 as a benchmark?

I know just enough to be dangerous. And I'm looking things up as I go(Which makes some of these posts take a long time. I start typing, run to check something, then get an idea, do a bit of research, then come back later.)

Math was never my strong point, really. And working that out would be a lot of math.

I know the general idea, though. We can determine from the animation that it vaporized a large chunk of rock sitting directly in front of the ship. And that it boiled a VERY large mass of water on it's way out. You can calculate the mass of the rock and water, and use the heat required to vaporize those as a lower limit(which is guaranteed to be lower than the actual energy output due to EM radiation(if nothing else, there's a lot of visible light emission) air, and the zentradi ship that got vaped).

I also know that the Macross' cannon gets a benefit that bombs don't get. All the energy is released onto a small area, instead of spread out evenly in all directions around the weapon.

Since the surface area of a sphere increases so rapidly with the sphere's diameter, a bomb rapidly loses force with distance. The surface area of a cylinder's end, of course, stays constant with cylinder length(if the Macross' beam was spreading, it was very slowly).

So for a given energy output, the cannon will always do more damage to a given target than the bomb. Especially as distance increases.

Not really relevant to Operation Stargazer, since the bomb was sent into an enclosed area. But in general the gun is better for a given energy level.

To take a more practical example than nuclear detonations and mountain vaporization...

If you put a few grams of gunpowder in a pile and light it, you won't do a whole lot of damage to anyone from any real distance.

But take the exact same mass of gunpowder, confine and focus it so all the energy is directed into a single path, and you can kill someone rather easily at a significant range.

[Mr March]

I'd love to get a calculation for the explosive yield for the first firing of the SDF-1 Macross again. I curse myself to this day for not copying and pasting the fan calculations I read years ago

You're right that it is insane. It was the vaporization of the mountain range and thousands of kilometers of ocean that made the cannon so impressive. Sure it also destroyed two, 500 meter long Zentradi ships a light second out, but that was easy compared to the trip it took to get there.

I don't think that Reaction Bombs need be nearly as destructive as the main gun. What makes Reaction Bombs so attractive is that they are more powerful than nuclear bombs and ANY delivery system can be used. The super-dimension-energy cannons take a lot of power and space to work. All the ships have to be big to mount them. But with Reaction bombs, even the lowliest valkyrie can be turned into a ship killer. This was part of the reason why the UN Spacy fleet was able to inflict so much damage upon a much larger Zentradi force.

I like your thoughts on the super-dimension-energy cannon. It may indeed be a clever cheat to get around conservation of energy. Yeah, bombs are pretty inefficient as energy delivery. You need to significantly increase the yield of a bomb in order to match the destructive force of a focused beam. But the reaction bombs could also be shape charged, so the majority of the energy could be unleashed in a particular direction

[JB0]

I don't think that Reaction Bombs need be nearly as destructive as the main gun. What makes Reaction Bombs so attractive is that they are more powerful than nuclear bombs and ANY delivery system can be used. The super-dimension-energy cannons take a lot of power and space to work. All the ships have to be big to mount them. But with Reaction bombs, even the lowliest valkyrie can be turned into a ship killer. This was part of the reason why the UN Spacy fleet was able to inflict so much damage upon a much larger Zentradi force.

But in Mac7, reaction weapons were clearly intended to be an increase in firepower.

They blasted the big bulldog thing with the Battle 7's cannon, after determining that they couldn't nail it with fighter-based weaponry. It blocks it completely. So they called home for reaction weapon authorization.

And Operation Stargazer required the delivery of a SINGLE reaction warhead to the cave.

It was awesome, don't get me wrong. But it never made a whole lot of SENSE.

That's the major thing that bothers me.

They're certainly far easier to deploy, especially if you need more than one shot.

I like your thoughts on the super-dimension-energy cannon. It may indeed be a clever cheat to get around conservation of energy. Yeah, bombs are pretty inefficient as energy delivery. You need to significantly increase the yield of a bomb in order to match the destructive force of a focused beam. But the reaction bombs could also be shape charged, so the majority of the energy could be unleashed in a particular direction

Shaped charge nuclear/antimatter... oh, the possibilities... *drools*

Edited June 10, 2008 by JB0

[Mr March]

I don't think it was a question of firepower as much as it is about numbers. Even if a reaction bomb is only one-tenth as destructive as the super-dimension-energy cannon, reaction bombs are far more plentiful and versatile than a one shot super beam weapon. Firing one hundred reaction warheads all at once basically magnifies the destructive potential of your weapons by an entire order of magnitude. In the case of Macross 7, Max was probably thinking that if the fleet unleashed all their reaction weapons, they could overpower Glavil's defense. A bulletproof vest might stop one or two shots, but blast it with a couple machine guns and the vest is now wearing it's owner for protection

In the case of Operation Stargazer, the Varauta lair was deep underground with a mountain range on top. It's unlikely the Battle 7 could assure the Protodeviln's destruction, whereas a point blank reaction bomb smuggled inside the vulnerable lair would ensure the Protodeviln would stand a chance (such as it were)

Besides, reaction warheads are shown as less directly destructive than the super-dimension-energy cannon. Compare the destructive power of the ARMD's reaction warheads in SDF Macross Episode 1 to the destructive power of the SDF-1's main gun in that same episode.

Edited June 11, 2008 by Mr March

[JB0]

I don't think it was a question of firepower as much as it is about numbers. Even if a reaction bomb is only one-tenth as destructive as the super-dimension-energy cannon, reaction bombs are far more plentiful and versatile than a one shot super beam weapon. Firing one hundred reaction warheads all at once basically magnifies the destructive potential of your weapons by an entire order of magnitude. In the case of Macross 7, Max was probably thinking that if the fleet unleashed all their reaction weapons, they could overpower Glavil's defense. A bulletproof vest might stop one or two shots, but blast it with a couple machine guns and the vest is now wearing it's owner for protection

In the case of Operation Stargazer, the Varauta lair was deep underground with a mountain range on top. It's unlikely the Battle 7 could assure the Protodeviln's destruction, whereas a point blank reaction bomb smuggled inside the vulnerable lair would ensure the Protodeviln would stand a chance (such as it were)

You make an excellent case.

I lay the issue to rest, convinced there's some logic in it.

Besides, reaction warheads are shown as less directly destructive than the super-dimension-energy cannon. Compare the destructive power of the ARMD's reaction warheads in SDF Macross Episode 1 to the destructive power of the SDF-1's main gun in that same episode.

But SDF never presented them as an escalation.

Except possibly for the last battle, but there's arguably good reasons for not blasting Bodol's fortress with the cannon. It was so large that it could be hard to guarantee you hit something important, or that you did enough damage to shut it down.

In such a case, a lot of little attacks make a lot more sense than one big one.

[Mr March]

I agree. There seems to have been some major policy restrictions towards reaction weapons post-Space War I. Probably had a lot to do with the annihilation of Earth. Millard mentions in Macross Plus the use of reaction weapons would cause a serious political problem, so reaction weapons are likely held back in nearly all circumstances except the most dire. After all, there could very well be an encounter with another Zentradi main fleet, so the reaction weapons would be needed to repel such a large force. Then again, by 2059, reaction weapons seem to be in fashion again. Cannaria appeared to use reaction weapons against the Vajra with her VB-6 Konig Monster.

[Morpheus]

Then again, by 2059, reaction weapons seem to be in fashion again. Cannaria appeared to use reaction weapons against the Vajra with her VB-6 Konig Monster.

A private military provider has access to reaction warhead? The policy regarding reaction weaponry usage must be changed significantly after Mac 7/VFX-2 era.

[JB0]

In space, no one can hear you scream 'radioactive fire in the hole'

[KingNor]

I've always liked to think that the Valks had a bit of an AI system that interpeted the input of the pilot to a certain degree.

IE: you didn't controll the legs directly at all times, but you'd use the controls to tell the plane "i'm gonna go over there" and then the plane would figure out the best way to move there. roughly that feels pretty vague and with something like a valkyrie you woudln't want movement to be vague so i'd imagine it would MOSTLY feel like you had direct control.

I'm not talking about something like an Eva or a robot with a sentient personality, but something that was smarter than say a car.

There has to be a fair amount of anime magic involved thoguh becasue i just don't see how you could accurately control a human shaped machine from a seated position unless the machine was interpeting a lot of what you were telling it to do. there are just too many joints to control with just your hands and feet.

[Mr March]

I agree that automation is likely involved in the control scheme. The statistics do mention "Super AI" control avionics in the YF-19 fighter and there are motion sensitive controls on the throttle and stick. Perhaps there are some other systems involved as well, but I think they need something to help control the craft. Like you said, there's simply too many controls for one person to handle fast and efficiently, epseically at the speed we see the valkyries move in the show.

I think plausibility is stretched the most for complex maneuvers in Battroid mode. How would one perform some of the maneuvers that Max does in his VF-1A or how would you do Isamu's flying kick in the YF-19? For that matter, how would Alto and Brera manage to lock fingers between the hands on the VF-25 and VF-27? How would you even throw a punch or a kick (or how about blocking said blows) with the controls they use? Even if the valkyries are automated to a large degree by AI systems, it's hard to imagine how they would achieve these maneuvers.

[Morpheus]

I agree that automation is likely involved in the control scheme. The statistics do mention "Super AI" control avionics in the YF-19 fighter and there are motion sensitive controls on the throttle and stick. Perhaps there are some other systems involved as well, but I think they need something to help control the craft. Like you said, there's simply too many controls for one person to handle fast and efficiently, epseically at the speed we see the valkyries move in the show.

I think plausibility is stretched the most for complex maneuvers in Battroid mode. How would one perform some of the maneuvers that Max does in his VF-1A or how would you do Isamu's flying kick in the YF-19? For that matter, how would Alto and Brera manage to lock fingers between the hands on the VF-25 and VF-27? How would you even throw a punch or a kick (or how about blocking said blows) with the controls they use? Even if the valkyries are automated to a large degree by AI systems, it's hard to imagine how they would achieve these maneuvers.

When Klan bitchslapped Michael, I swear Michael VF-25 is using BCS, look at those gesture and he even (kinda) feel the slap to the VF-25 head

Anyway, Macross F set a new record here, VF-25, the first and only VF in Macross Universe ever been bitchslapped by a girl

[Sulendil Ang]

For those who wonder what's fluid pulse actuators is, here's a very good explanation I found in Ultimate Mark:

Mobile suits are driven by a fluid pulse system, in which a pulse converter turns the energy produced by the nuclear fusion reactor into pulses of pressure, which are then transmitted to all the actuators via fluid tubes. In the MS-06, the power pipes which contain thousands of these fluid tubes are partially exposed.

Although it's about the mobile suits of Mobile Suit Gundam, I think the concept is applicable to Macross too.

[Spitze]

How about reusable missiles that forcefully batter their opponent but return to their launch nacelles unscathed because of their own individual PBS & AI system?

Please, I don't like the idea of Slash Harkens as it is.

[Mr March]

For those who wonder what's fluid pulse actuators is, here's a very good explanation I found in Ultimate Mark:

Although it's about the mobile suits of Mobile Suit Gundam, I think the concept is applicable to Macross too.

It's very likely that's where the idea came from. It wouldn't be the first time Macross borrowed from Gundam. The material known as "space metal" has long been assumed as a reference to luna titanium that Kawamori borrowed to use as the light weight/super strong frame of the Valkyries.

[badboy00z]

So what kind of fuel do Valks run on??

[JB0]

So what kind of fuel do Valks run on??

Most likely hydrogen, helium, or some other light element.

It's never been explicitly stated. We just know they use a thermonuclear reaction, use overtechnology to make it workable, and that it's "clean."

[Chief Guld Goa Bowman]

How does Klan, the other members of Pixie Squadron or Themjin control the Queadluuns. I know the control system has wires connected to the fingers, but exactly how does that work?

[JB0]

I don't know that there's ever been a clearly-defined Q-Rau cockpit.

Much to my dismay.

[d3v]

I don't know that there's ever been a clearly-defined Q-Rau cockpit.

Much to my dismay.

Personally, I take this as a sign that even the animation team hasn't figured out how it works.

Methinks it's time to burn more offerings to the Hory Froating Head.

[Chief Guld Goa Bowman]

This is my interpretation of the Fighter Mode/Battroid/Gerwalk Controls from watching DYRL?, Macross Plus, Macross 7, Macross Zero, Macross Frontier.

Fighter Mode

The fighter has two modes of flight, forward flight and short VTOL. The foot pedals control the vector nozzles(pitch and roll for vertical thrust vectoring and yaw for horizontal thrust vectoring(VF-17/VF-171)). The YF-21/VF-22 had four vector pedals for the three-dimensional thrust vectoring which controlled pitch, yaw and roll. The flight stick controls the pitch and roll while the yaw is done by buttons on the stick unless the VF has four pedals like the YF-21/VF-22. The trigger on the flight stick allows for tighter high G maneuvers (Ismau uses the trigger pitching up the fighter during his sky writing). Just like battroid and gerwalk mode, the throttle controls the thrust. Also like the other two modes the weapons are on the flight stick while the flight systems are on the throttle unless the VF has another throttle that controls the flight systems like the YF-21/VF-22 or VF-1(DYRL? and SDF Macross). The gunpod(s) in fired by the trigger on the throttle(YF-19/VF-19 and VF-11) while the missiles are fired with flight stick. The targeting system uses the eyes and head for manual targeting for specific targets(Roy Focker and Ozma Lee) and also has automated targeting.

Battroid Mode

The battroid has one mode of flight, hover mode. The foot pedals allow it to move forward or rearward, while the flight stick controls the posture must like pitch and roll in fighter mode. The Yaw buttons are on the flight since the pedals are already used for movement unless the VF has four pedals like the YF-21/VF-22. The trigger on the flight stick combined with stick moving left or right allows it to strafe in the given direction. The Throttle controls the thrust and along with the combination of a button allows the battroid the ascend or descend by opening or closing the throttle. The weapons systems are on the flight stick while the flight systems are on the throttle unless the VF has another throttle that controls the flight systems like the YF-21/VF-22 or VF-1(DYRL? and SDF Macross). The gunpod(s) in fired by the trigger on the throttle(YF-19/VF-19 and VF-11) while the missiles are fired with flight stick. The targeting system uses the eyes and head for manual targeting for specific targets(Roy Focker and Ozma Lee) and also has automated targeting. A button or switch on the flight stick allows the pilot to control a hand(s) pick up objects like a rock like Roy or Guld picking up Isamu's gunpod.

Gerwalk Mode

The gerwalk has two modes of flight, forward flight and hover mode(for hover mode see battroid mode). The forward flight operates much like a helicopter. The foot pedals are used to control the legs/vector nozzles and also air brakes. The flight stick controls the roll and pitch, while the yaw is done with buttons on the stick unless the VF has four pedals like the YF-21/VF-22. The trigger on the flight stick allows for tighter high G maneuvers (Isamu uses the trigger while pitch up YF-19 in gerwalk during his nosedive in the movie. Just like battroid and fighter mode, the throttle controls the thrust. Also like the other two modes the weapons are on the flight stick while the flight systems are on the throttle unless the VF has another throttle that controls the flight systems like the YF-21/VF-22 or VF-1(DYRL? and SDF Macross). The gunpod(s) in fired by the trigger on the throttle(YF-19/VF-19 and VF-11) while the missiles are fired with flight stick. The targeting system uses the eyes and head for manual targeting for specific targets(Roy Focker and Ozma Lee) and also has automated targeting. A button or switch on the flight stick allows the pilot to control a hand(s) pick up objects like Alto picking up Ranka and Hikaru picking up Misa.

Edited July 8, 2008 by Chief Guld Goa Bowman

[Sulendil Ang]

Nice post Chief Guld Goa Bowman! I originally planned to do a research on the controls of variable fighter and Zentradi battle suits sometimes on this end of year (with pictures), where I had finished my big exam, but looks like someone is doing it earlier than I am.

Not having watching all the Macross series yet, I can't say for sure if I think you interpretation is correct or not (especially the gunpod one: I have another idea for it), so maybe a picture or two may help. But still, it explains neatly how VF is controlled.

[d3v]

This is my interpretation of the Fighter Mode/Battroid/Gerwalk Controls from watching DYRL?, Macross Plus, Macross 7, Macross Zero, Macross Frontier.

Fighter Mode

The fighter has two modes of flight, forward flight and short VTOL. The foot pedals control the vector nozzles(pitch and roll for vertical thrust vectoring and yaw for horizontal thrust vectoring(VF-17/VF-171)). The YF-21/VF-22 had four vector pedals for the three-dimensional thrust vectoring which controlled pitch, yaw and roll. The flight stick controls the pitch and roll while the yaw is done by buttons on the stick unless the VF has four pedals like the YF-21/VF-22. The trigger on the flight stick allows for tighter high G maneuvers (Ismau uses the trigger pitching up the fighter during his sky writing). Just like battroid and gerwalk mode, the throttle controls the thrust. Also like the other two modes the weapons are on the flight stick while the flight systems are on the throttle unless the VF has another throttle that controls the flight systems like the YF-21/VF-22 or VF-1(DYRL? and SDF Macross). The gunpod(s) in fired by the trigger on the throttle(YF-19/VF-19 and VF-11) while the missiles are fired with flight stick. The targeting system uses the eyes and head for manual targeting for specific targets(Roy Focker and Ozma Lee) and also has automated targeting.

I believe they've shown shots of the gunpods and missiles being fired by the trigger on the flight stick. As for the YF-19, while Isamu's finger seemed to tighten around the trigger, he didn't actually pull it (besides, there wasn't any gunpod attached during that flight).

[Firefighter Destroid]

Hi Everyone!

It's been some time since I last checked on this post - something I started several space folds ago. I had to do some actual work that really kept me pre-occupied from here. And it seems in the time I was gone I had been give an actual name in the Japanese official site: 'Destroid Werk' (or Destroid Work if you prefer). It looks like I have a lot of catching up to do reading through all your entries (we've just started the groundwork for mecha control systems!). But even so, I want to express my appreciation on how this topic has sparked so much interest & response on what a VF is and what it can do and how it does the things we all love it for doing. Thank you all for your faith & enthusiasm. Domo arigato Go-Zaimer, fellow MetaCulture mechheads. Soredewa, mata ne!

[badboy00z]

After watching the All That VF clip, it got me thinking of how fighters can do maneuvers like that. One that was pretty cool is the one where the VF-25 moves vertically upwards while spinning horizontally (yaw). I know the 3 basic movements are yaw, pitch, and roll so how does a pilot combine those movements to perform different maneuvers?

[sushisystems]

After watching the All That VF clip, it got me thinking of how fighters can do maneuvers like that. One that was pretty cool is the one where the VF-25 moves vertically upwards while spinning horizontally (yaw). I know the 3 basic movements are yaw, pitch, and roll so how does a pilot combine those movements to perform different maneuvers?

I think they did it in All That VF by pointing the thrust nozzles in opposite directions. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think the Russian SU-27 can pull a similar maneuver (not the cobra) due to the amount of thrust that it can generate.

[azrael]

I think they did it in All That VF by pointing the thrust nozzles in opposite directions. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think the Russian SU-27 can pull a similar maneuver (not the cobra) due to the amount of thrust that it can generate.

It's called Thrust-Vectoring. Almost all VFs have some form of thrust-vectoring nozzles.

[David Hingtgen]

I think badboy00z is talking about the move at 1:08-1:10, while sushisystems and azrael are talking about 0:48 to 0:53.

The move at 1:08-1:10 is basically a flat spin in the wrong axis. I'd saw it's more raw inertia from the climb, combined with a very vernier-assisted rudder. The VF-25 doesn't have yaw-vectoring. Very few planes (including valks) do. YF-21, Sv-51, and maybe VF-27.

Either way, they yaw and roll too fast for any modern plane to even attempt those maneuvers--by the time they'd have done the first rotation, they'd be out of power/inertia/speed etc. A Super Flanker/F-22 etc could probably do about the first half of each initial roll--then have to break out of it. (and that's pretty close to 2 moves they do do)