Macross Frontier Episode 9 Talkback Thread *READ 1st Post*

[jenius]

The 27 looks more maneuverable, has a gun that blows up battleships, and can fold... I'd say that looks like a pretty good trump over the VF-25 so far. What's to stop them from putting packs on a VF-27?

[d3v]

The 27 looks more maneuverable, has a gun that blows up battleships, and can fold... I'd say that looks like a pretty good trump over the VF-25 so far. What's to stop them from putting packs on a VF-27?

Funny then how Brera in a supposedly "more maneuverable" plane couldn't shake Alto off his six, even when he reversed thrust and went into Gerwalk mode, Alto still got a lock on him and was eventually able to take a leg out.

This is Macross people, Gundam-esque disadvantages due to one side better technology has never been a major plot device.

[jenius]

Funny then how Brera in a supposedly "more maneuverable" plane couldn't shake Alto off his six, even when he reversed thrust and went into Gerwalk mode, Alto still got a lock on him and was eventually able to take a leg out.

Maybe Alto is a better pilot?? Everything points to the VF-27 being technologically superior and it has more engines and is animated to move in crazy ways. Rewatch episode 7 when Brera enters the Varja battleship.

This is Macross people, Gundam-esque disadvantages due to one side better technology has never been a major plot device.

In the original series it's more of a numbers thing (Zents and humans may not be far apart technologically but there's no question the Zents have the muscle). In Mac+ the Ghost is clearly the most advanced fighter. In Mac7 the Protodevlin are so advanced they're unstoppable. In MacZero the Protoculture relic is so advanced it's unstoppable. In MacF the Varja are so advanced they seem unstoppable... except for the hero mechs... Here we have the VF-27, with a superb advantage, who can stop it? The hero of our anime, Alto. I'm not a huge Gundam fan but from what I understand this isn't all that radically different.

[dreamweaver13]

In the original series it's more of a numbers thing (Zents and humans may not be far apart technologically but there's no question the Zents have the muscle). In Mac+ the Ghost is clearly the most advanced fighter. In Mac7 the Protodevlin are so advanced they're unstoppable. In MacZero the Protoculture relic is so advanced it's unstoppable. In MacF the Varja are so advanced they seem unstoppable... except for the hero mechs... Here we have the VF-27, with a superb advantage, who can stop it? The hero of our anime, Alto. I'm not a huge Gundam fan but from what I understand this isn't all that radically different.

From what i've seen of gundam (gundam fans, feel free to correct me if i'm wrong), the technological superiority of the new gundam plays a primary role in determining the winning side. the newest gundam model comes along, and it rampages across the battlefield for at least two episodes' worth of carnage (sometimes even more). Even superior pilots from the opposing side are forced to retreat. it is only when they get a significant upgrade in mecha that they can stand toe to toe again with the newest gundam pilot. So piloting skill takes a supporting role to the quality of the mecha.

On the other hand, i never had the impression from watching any macross series that the technological superiority of the mech would determine victory. in SDFM, it's linn minmei who eventually made the difference. in Mac+, isamu was shown to be the better pilot (if we assume that the YF21 is far more superior to the YF19). In Mac7, it was anima spiritia. In Mac 0, well... it was mysticism of some kind. I guess the point that d3v wanted to make is that the plot device of macross won't ultimately rely on which side gets the newest and best mecha. something else will happen, external to the mecha, that will ultimately decide the victor.

that being said... i think VF27 is superior to the VF25. Whether it's due to the mecha itself, or to the unique control system of the VF27, i can't say for sure. but if this is the case, then it would mean that alto is just one hell of a pilot.

[jenius]

Ah - thanks for explaining the Gundam flow of events. Yes, in that case then it is differnet from what we've seen in all previous Macross efforts. I'm still sticking with my argument that the VF-27 appears superior but I would definitely stop short of saying it seems so superior the VF-25 can't hold a candle to it.

[ma2ha3]

Based on what we've seen, the VF-27 is just about on par with the VF-25. It may have more technology, but performance wise they seem to be just about equal (kinda like the YF-19 and YF-21 were back in the day). The 27's advantage is that most of what it needs is built into the plane, the 25 on the other hand, uses separate FAST packs, however this is also its advantage in that it can tailor its load out depending on the mission.

brera got a long big gun, which split into two and destroy a carrier with one single shot.

if this is not powerful than VF-25, i dun know what is.

military still have the best hardware.

also VF-27 have a 360 virtual cockpit, meaning it is more high tech than VF-25.

and VF-27 can fold on it's own.

i cannot believe people think VF-25 is on par with VF-27

it is like comparing F-14 tomcat with A-4 skyhawk

[taksraven]

I was just wondering. In episode nine, when Alto was wrestling with the Vajra, why did neither of them use a different weapon to break the stalemate. Alto could have used his head laser and the Vajra could have used its mounted cannon maybe.

Same goes for when Alto was wrestling with the VF-27. Neither of them used their head weapons to break the stalemate. (It looks like the VF27 has some sort of weapon mounted on its head.)

Taksraven

[darkrealmbahamut]

brera got a long big gun, which split into two and destroy a carrier with one single shot.

if this is not powerful than VF-25, i dun know what is.

military still have the best hardware.

also VF-27 have a 360 virtual cockpit, meaning it is more high tech than VF-25.

and VF-27 can fold on it's own.

i cannot believe people think VF-25 is on par with VF-27

it is like comparing F-14 tomcat with A-4 skyhawk

But the YF-21 was superior in aspects to the YF-19 but which won out on the main contract? As you saw though the VF-25 kept up in combat and clearly got some good hits. The 360 cockpit was removed for some reason in the VF-25 so don't count it out yet.

And to the the real life comparison a better choice would be a F-22 in comparison to the F-15 since the Raptors avionics are vastly superior.

Edited June 4, 2008 by darkrealmbahamut

[darkrealmbahamut]

I was just wondering. In episode nine, when Alto was wrestling with the Vajra, why did neither of them use a different weapon to break the stalemate. Alto could have used his head laser and the Vajra could have used its mounted cannon maybe.

Same goes for when Alto was wrestling with the VF-27. Neither of them used their head weapons to break the stalemate. (It looks like the VF27 has some sort of weapon mounted on its head.)

Taksraven

could be they were two close. I mean the Vajra's cannon doesn't look like it can bend like that. Plus who knows how affective the head lasers are on the Vajra. For the VF-25 vs VF-27 that was story driven on that stalemate.

[Morpheus]

I was just wondering. In episode nine, when Alto was wrestling with the Vajra, why did neither of them use a different weapon to break the stalemate. Alto could have used his head laser and the Vajra could have used its mounted cannon maybe.

Same goes for when Alto was wrestling with the VF-27. Neither of them used their head weapons to break the stalemate. (It looks like the VF27 has some sort of weapon mounted on its head.)

Taksraven

Well, I think they did, however Kawamori said "Cut" and screams at them for not following the script. The entire shot must be retaken at least five times.

[d3v]

brera got a long big gun, which split into two and destroy a carrier with one single shot.

if this is not powerful than VF-25, i dun know what is.

military still have the best hardware.

also VF-27 have a 360 virtual cockpit, meaning it is more high tech than VF-25.

and VF-27 can fold on it's own.

i cannot believe people think VF-25 is on par with VF-27

it is like comparing F-14 tomcat with A-4 skyhawk

And when in Macross history has "more high tech" equated to better. If you recall Plus, the YF-21 was more high tech than the YF-19, yet the YF-19 was it's equal in terms of performance.

As for Frontier, your so called as I noted, Brera's VF-27 wasn't able to lose a V-25 piloted by a rookie.

Honestly, get over it, the whole mecha arms-race deal was always more of a Gundam thing in the first place. Macross has never been known for it.

But the YF-21 was superior in aspects to the YF-19 but which won out on the main contract? As you saw though the VF-25 kept up in combat and clearly got some good hits. The 360 cockpit was removed for some reason in the VF-25 so don't count it out yet.

Actually, the VF-19 started scoring higher across the board once they worked out the bugs and has Isamu fly it.

Also, we've theorized that the VF-25 can use the 360 cockpit (since we see it used in battroid mode, a more seamless one at that) but for some reason is turned off in fighter mode.

Edited June 4, 2008 by d3v

[ma2ha3]

so you are trying to tell me that a plane which you need your hands and legs to control is same technology as

another plane, where you do not have to move your hand and legs, just use your mind to control.

VF-25 is not full 360 degree view, you can see gaps of metal around it. like a plane cockpit.

where VF-27 is total 360 degree bubble view. this is more high tech.

VF-27 is more technological advance than VF-25, bottom line. plane is just a tool, pilot is more important, like middle east war, egypt have more advance fighter, israel have less advance fighter but better trainm israel win. basically situation here, but alto not included, because he is lead role, so basically an entire fleet of barja cannot touch him.

[Final Vegeta]

From what i've seen of gundam (gundam fans, feel free to correct me if i'm wrong), the technological superiority of the new gundam plays a primary role in determining the winning side. the newest gundam model comes along, and it rampages across the battlefield for at least two episodes' worth of carnage (sometimes even more). Even superior pilots from the opposing side are forced to retreat. it is only when they get a significant upgrade in mecha that they can stand toe to toe again with the newest gundam pilot.

Well, in Gundam 00 they needed 832 MS to capture 4 gundams (it was a battle that lasted for several hours)... and they failed when 3 more gundams came in.

FV

[d3v]

so you are trying to tell me that a plane which you need your hands and legs to control is same technology as

another plane, where you do not have to move your hand and legs, just use your mind to control.

So clearly then, the YF-21 is a better plane despite the charts shown in Plus where the YF-19 was in the lead. And when they fought, it was clearly an even match?

VF-25 is not full 360 degree view, you can see gaps of metal around it. like a plane cockpit.

In cockpit shots of Ozma in episode two clearly show a more seamless 360 cockpit as compared to previous VFs. Why it isn't animated as such in fighter mode is another question altogether.

where VF-27 is total 360 degree bubble view. this is more high tech.

VF-27 is more technological advance than VF-25, bottom line. plane is just a tool, pilot is more important, like middle east war, egypt have more advance fighter, israel have less advance fighter but better trainm israel win. basically situation here, but alto not included, because he is lead role, so basically an entire fleet of barja cannot touch him.

If they meant for the 27 to be a better fighter, then they probably would have animated it so that Alto was losing and needed Mikhail's help to win. Plot armor is plot armor, but there are limits to how much you can use it before the audience loses its suspension of disbelief and suspects something funny.

[d3v]

Ah - thanks for explaining the Gundam flow of events. Yes, in that case then it is differnet from what we've seen in all previous Macross efforts. I'm still sticking with my argument that the VF-27 appears superior but I would definitely stop short of saying it seems so superior the VF-25 can't hold a candle to it.

Superior firepower that's for sure, but all that firepower is useless if you can't hit your target. Besides, it seems that it's still more practical to use a high volume of fire against another VF than to simply target it with a big gun, something that your good old gunpod is quite capable of.

[cjcastan]

I do love despite the bitching i just did that Michel is a sniper. That is something that never gets old, him transformer, setting up his anchor and taking people out. I wonder who good of a pilot he really is compared to Alto or Ozma (whatever his name is) seeing as how he is always so far away from the main action.

Michel compared to Alto, at least in the beginning of the show I think was implicitly stated to be a higher graded pilot. IIRC in the deculture edition, when Luca was complaining about how simple the program was to be in the concert and Alto was pouting. Michel made a statement to Alto along the lines of "If you don't like it, then win the leader position" and then chided Alto for constantly finishing 2nd place.

So at least in formal grading it's implicitly stated that Michel is tops in their class.

[evirus]

My one hope is that this series dosn't have any "recalling the past" episodes, where most of it is just clips from previous episodes.

[Mr March]

Superior firepower that's for sure, but all that firepower is useless if you can't hit your target. Besides, it seems that it's still more practical to use a high volume of fire against another VF than to simply target it with a big gun, something that your good old gunpod is quite capable of.

I agree. That has always been the problem when fighting against the valkyries and why big-blast guns never work in variable fighter combat. Against vehicles as fast and agile as a variable fighter, these big-blast guns aren't going to be much use against a Valkyrie that can simply dodge such fire easily. Best to go for speed and penetration, hence high rate of fire/high velocity gun pods, lasers, missiles and beam guns are the weapons of choice.

[jenius]

If they meant for the 27 to be a better fighter, then they probably would have animated it so that Alto was losing and needed Mikhail's help to win.

You do realize that you could just as easily interpret this as being an effort to show off that Alto is so great that he can keep up with much better technology but the VF-27 is so great that even our super hero Alto needs help beating it?

[Final Vegeta]

You do realize that you could just as easily interpret this as being an effort to show off that Alto is so great that he can keep up with much better technology but the VF-27 is so great that even our super hero Alto needs help beating it?

I think this is how things were meant. After an initial surprise Brera got ahold of himself and started dodging again.

FV

[Impreszive]

I think this is how things were meant. After an initial surprise Brera got ahold of himself and started dodging again.

FV

I was getting ready to post that regardless of that technology, pilots count for a lot too. Still, the (27) seems a bit more superior on some technological fronts than the (25). Weapons and avionics on one don't completely outclass the other, though. I guess we will see how the series progresses form here to get our answer.

[Zinjo]

For the record, the VF-25 cockpit is so narrow, having a 360* view would be a waste of useful energy as the pilot wouldn't be able to use it anyway. The only thing that would come in handy is to have a holoview at his feet to be able to see any adversary coming up from the bottom.

The VF-27 certainly has some advantages, redundant thrusters is one of them, however I agree with Marchmedowntothewoodshed, in that the two fighters were developed for different purposes. In a dogfight the VF-25 has the advantage, in an interceptor / anti-cap ship role the VF-27 does.

The VF-27's virtual cockpit must require implants (all the VR stuff in Plus was inside Guld's head) to operate and is thus a bit of bleeding edge OTEC, whereas the VF-25 is more of a meat and potatoes fighter with bolt on mission packs to add to it's arsenal/abilities.

Edited June 4, 2008 by Zinjo

[darkrealmbahamut]

Actually, the VF-19 started scoring higher across the board once they worked out the bugs and has Isamu fly it.

Also, we've theorized that the VF-25 can use the 360 cockpit (since we see it used in battroid mode, a more seamless one at that) but for some reason is turned off in fighter mode.

Well right now the only bug in the system(For the VF-25 that is) is Alto and as he gets more confident he will own Brera. Right now though that superior fire power is something SMS needs to worry about.

Edited June 4, 2008 by darkrealmbahamut

[s001]

Yeah, that's a really big gun on the VF-27! I think that kind of weapon is ilegal in the macross universe.

[Heron]

Yeah, that's a really big gun on the VF-27! I think that kind of weapon is ilegal in the macross universe.

Whadda mean illegal? Macross is know for its Big Guns: SDF-1, Battle 7, Klan Klan...

[darkrealmbahamut]

It definately has some amazing duel purpose. It seems like Mikhail has to be at range or he can't use his weapon. Brera was gunning down Klan Klan with bursts then that puppy snapped open and and wham.

[Impreszive]

Whadda mean illegal? Macross is know for its Big Guns: SDF-1, Battle 7, Klan Klan...

True....but not on a fighter, man.

And Klan really out-classes all of them anyways....

[Master Dex]

Well Klan doesn't really fly a fighter, she flies a suit so the big beam cannon works for her.

As for the VF-25 vs. VF-27, based my my observations it is clear the two were designed for different mission parameters. However if you must compare them directly despite their uses for different things (as in a dogfight between Alto and Brera which we will see again no doubt) then the way I see it, as planes the 27 and 25 seem about the same, the VF-27 just has more toys. To elaborate:

As a plane, from an engineering standpoint it seems the VF-27 and the VF-25 are nearly identical, the 27 having more maneuverability and acceleration while the 25 has more speed. In other words if the 2 were to have a straight line race, the 27 would get ahead of the 25 at the beginning, but the 25 would be able to catch up because it can gain a faster speed but just doesn't accelerate as fast. This seems evident as Brera couldn't seem to shake Alto at all (which in truth shouldn't have been a program if you regard the physics of space such as lack of inertia or friction of air resistance, but lets not get into that). So in my opinion, looking at the two as just planes they are roughly equal with each having slight differences based on how they are designed to be used.

Now of course the 27 has some more high tech equipment which gives it a bit of an advantage. However as it seems to be designed to do hit and run tactics with the more maneuverability, acceleration, and big honking space gun, it seems not at its best against other fighters, especially ones designed for dogfighting such as the 25. Just because the 25 has less advanced gadgets doesn't mean it isn't as good, those gadgets seem to be made for the type of hit and run anti-ship stuff that seems to be the design of the 27. If you were to give the 25 a fold booster (internal or not, I think the internal ones are prototype probably), a virtual cockpit program, and a big honking space gun like that it could probably do the same stuff (hmm, fast pack idea there).

It seems to be the VF-27 is the evolution of valkyries like the VF-19 and the VF-22, designed for special missions where any old plane just won't cut it, whereas the VF-25 is the evolution of your basic all purpose fighters like the VF-1, VF-11, and the VF-171, where you can equip a certain type of Fast pack depending on what you need it to do. If I needed to send in someone to take out an enemy target without a large battle I'd use the 27, but if I need to fight a swarm of enemy fighters I'd rather have the 25.

Edited June 4, 2008 by Master Dex

[evirus]

It seems like Mikhail has to be at range or he can't use his weapon.

well the farther away something is the more you have to adjust your aim, in order to actually hit the target, at a certain point your only hope of hitting a moving target is if it stays on coarse, a basic no no for pilots in combat. and even then he's a sniper, generally snipers are supposed to stay hidden and only reveal them self by a kill shot. those reasons are why he didn't fire until the target got closer.

[Godzilla]

Brera got his @$$ kicked by Klan. She had him cold if it wasnt for his fighter able to repel that beam cannon of hers. He does not impress me. Gee, If you have invincible armor and carry a cannon that can wipe out Manhattan but your pilot skills are decent, you too can shoot up Klan. Sounds like my opponents when I am on XBL playing rainbow 6 Vegas 2.

Anyways, what the hell kind of power supply does that VF-27 have to power that "hand cannon" Brera is carrying?

[Strumvogel]

well the farther away something is the more you have to adjust your aim, in order to actually hit the target, at a certain point your only hope of hitting a moving target is if it stays on coarse, a basic no no for pilots in combat. and even then he's a sniper, generally snipers are supposed to stay hidden and only reveal them self by a kill shot. those reasons are why he didn't fire until the target got closer.

I agree. Michael's 25 is a highly specialized configuration with different electronics and sensor suite for a specialized role. That's not to say that he can't engage an enemy with his sniper gun in a 'knife-out' dogfight, he just wouldn't be as effective due to the semi-auto fire nature of his gun. He's just better utilized engaging his targets at range and in cover with a link-up with Luca as his spotter.

I actually still aren't sure about the 27's weapons suite. It is fairly unusual to see a weapon with a dual role in Macross and as such not too sure if that main gun used to take out the carrier was also used as an auto cannon against Klan.

[Master Dex]

Brera got his @$$ kicked by Klan. She had him cold if it wasnt for his fighter able to repel that beam cannon of hers. He does not impress me. Gee, If you have invincible armor and carry a cannon that can wipe out Manhattan but your pilot skills are decent, you too can shoot up Klan. Sounds like my opponents when I am on XBL playing rainbow 6 Vegas 2.

Anyways, what the hell kind of power supply does that VF-27 have to power that "hand cannon" Brera is carrying?

The VF-27 can't repel any beam cannon, remember that she didn't actually hit him with her cannon, she hit an asteroid that Brera got behind making her think she hit him which was why she let her guard down. He was just to maneuverable for her, otherwise she could have done as much damage as Alto did.

[Oihan]

You do realize that you could just as easily interpret this as being an effort to show off that Alto is so great that he can keep up with much better technology but the VF-27 is so great that even our super hero Alto needs help beating it?

That is EXACTLY how I interpret it. Just like with Plus, Guld had the more advanced plane but Isamu had the better skills.

[darkrealmbahamut]

well the farther away something is the more you have to adjust your aim, in order to actually hit the target, at a certain point your only hope of hitting a moving target is if it stays on coarse, a basic no no for pilots in combat. and even then he's a sniper, generally snipers are supposed to stay hidden and only reveal them self by a kill shot. those reasons are why he didn't fire until the target got closer.

I agree. Michael's 25 is a highly specialized configuration with different electronics and sensor suite for a specialized role. That's not to say that he can't engage an enemy with his sniper gun in a 'knife-out' dogfight, he just wouldn't be as effective due to the semi-auto fire nature of his gun. He's just better utilized engaging his targets at range and in cover with a link-up with Luca as his spotter.

I actually still aren't sure about the 27's weapons suite. It is fairly unusual to see a weapon with a dual role in Macross and as such not too sure if that main gun used to take out the carrier was also used as an auto cannon against Klan.

Well what I was meaning that it seems that the 27 covers both roles taking away the pack types. I think that is perhaps why the 27 has such weapons an attempt to get rid of the packs. Mikhail is an amazing sniper but if it hadn't been for Alto being up Brera's butt that duel purpose weapon is a threat.

[d3v]

Well right now the only bug in the system(For the VF-25 that is) is Alto and as he gets more confident he will own Brera. Right now though that superior fire power is something SMS needs to worry about.

Well than, maybe we'll get to see that Zentraedi plasma rifle Alto picked up adapted for variable fighter use.

That is EXACTLY how I interpret it. Just like with Plus, Guld had the more advanced plane but Isamu had the better skills.

More advanced maybe, but both planes were hitting the same performance benchmarks (in fact I recall seeing that the YF-19 was actually exceeding the YF-21).

Edited June 5, 2008 by d3v