Macross Dynamite 7 - Huh?!?!?!

[yellowlightman]

Exactly. If it wasn't for the rape and fanservice, I'd have no problem with D7. As it is, it's a disappointment, as it ruins an almost perfect show. With Frontier, though, it seems like EVERY EPISODE is a Dynamite 7.

Uh, there was no rape. There was attempted rape, which in itself is bit odd I'll bit!

But despite Elma being cute, I'm not sure where you get the fanservice bit from. She isn't exploited in the same way that every single female character in Frontier is.

[Gubaba]

Uh, there was no rape. There was attempted rape, which in itself is bit odd I'll bit!

But despite Elma being cute, I'm not sure where you get the fanservice bit from. She isn't exploited in the same way that every single female character in Frontier is.

No, no...they're talking about the BASARA fan service. I tell you, a finer ass exists on no man.

[d3v]

No, no...they're talking about the BASARA fan service. I tell you, a finer ass exists on no man.

First you deny attraction to Nanase's "handfulls" now you talk about how fine Basara's ass is. I'm beginning to have my doubts about you.

[Ork_dreadnought]

Uh, there was no rape. There was attempted rape, which in itself is bit odd I'll bit!

But despite Elma being cute, I'm not sure where you get the fanservice bit from. She isn't exploited in the same way that every single female character in Frontier is.

I think, perhaps, you are confusing fan art with the anime that inspired it. Fronteir is naughty at times, but it has yet to cross the line Dynamite 7 crossed (i.e no lolicon bath scene, and no yuri attempted rape scene). By comparison, the lost panties scene recently was innocent.

Edited June 4, 2008 by Ork_dreadnought

[kensei]

First you deny attraction to Nanase's "handfulls" now you talk about how fine Basara's ass is. I'm beginning to have my doubts about you.

I knew it.

[yellowlightman]

I think, perhaps, you are confusing fan art with the anime that inspired it. Fronteir is naughty at times, but it has yet to cross the line Dynamite 7 crossed (i.e no lolicon bath scene, and no yuri attempted rape scene). By comparison, the lost panties scene recently was innocent.

And again, that bathing scene was not exploitative I mean... Basara was just as naked as she was. It was about as exploitative as the bath scene in Totoro (except that was a threesome... oohhh~~).

Compare this to the boob touching, the CONSTANT boob bouncing, the vibrating cell phone gag and the panties scene.

The rape scene was odd and completely unnecessary, but considering nothing transpired on screen (or even off screen), I fail to see how it was exploitative. Odd story telling yes, exploitative, no.

[Gubaba]

First you deny attraction to Nanase's "handfulls" now you talk about how fine Basara's ass is. I'm beginning to have my doubts about you.

I may not know art but I know what I like.

[Ork_dreadnought]

And again, that bathing scene was not exploitative I mean... Basara was just as naked as she was. It was about as exploitative as the bath scene in Totoro (except that was a threesome... oohhh~~).

Compare this to the boob touching, the CONSTANT boob bouncing, the vibrating cell phone gag and the panties scene.

The rape scene was odd and completely unnecessary, but considering nothing transpired on screen (or even off screen), I fail to see how it was exploitative. Odd story telling yes, exploitative, no.

I am going to have to explain exactly why a grown man bathing with a young girl might qualify as exploitative? Especially as she was a groupie? Is the concept of Lolicon not know to you? Or exactly why someone might enjoy seeing Mylene getting sexually assaulted? Are trying to argue terminology or are you just naive?

To be completely honest, I've hardly registered the bits you've mentioned in Frontier. Bouncing boobies have been around since Gunbuster, and that level of fanservice has been the norm for at least five years. Look at Gundam, Code Geass, Gurren Lagann and Heroic Age.

Edited June 4, 2008 by Ork_dreadnought

[yellowlightman]

I am going to have to explain exactly why a grown man bathing with a young girl might qualify as exploitative? Especially as she was a groupie? Is the concept of Lolicon not know to you? Or exactly why someone might enjoy seeing Mylene getting sexually assaulted? Are trying to argue terminology or are you just naive?

Nudity does not equal exploitive, as it's about how it's presented. When a 12 year old cartoon girl is illustrated as bathing and shown as a centerfold in Megami... that's exploitive. When a girl gets in a hot springs and the camera doesn't zoom into her naughty bits or otherwise portray the act is inappropiate... that's not exploitive. Plus, the whole thing about Japanese bathing. Not to mention the fact that the only thing Basara had a boner for in Dynamite was space whales.

Ugh, and not to mention the shower scenes in SDF:M and DYRL. Which were far more exploitive than the bathing scene from Dynamite.

To be completely honest, I've hardly registered the bits you've mentioned in Frontier. Bouncing boobies have been around since Gunbuster, and that level of fanservice has been the norm for at least five years. Look at Gundam, Code Geass, Gurren Lagann and Heroic Age.

Congratulations for missing the point.

Edited June 4, 2008 by yellowlightman

[Ork_dreadnought]

Japanese baths are still divided by gender, so claiming that its a purely cultural misunderstanding is flawed. I also notice that you've avoided mentioning the yuri scene, in favour of attacking my references to other animes.

At this point, I can't really debate the issue any further on a supposidly worksafe board. However, I find it fundamentally odd that someone will complain about stereotypicaly male fan service, but will let slide fan service for more, erm, specialised tastes.

[Renato]

To be completely honest, I've hardly registered the bits you've mentioned in Frontier. Bouncing boobies have been around since Gunbuster, and that level of fanservice has been the norm for at least five years. Look at Gundam, Code Geass, Gurren Lagann and Heroic Age.

Oh, well, that makes it OK, then.

"Hey, that guy's racist!"

"Yeah, but racism's been around for centuries, man. Let it go."

"Oh, I see, no problem then."

Edited June 4, 2008 by Renato

[yellowlightman]

Japanese baths are still divided by gender, so claiming that its a purely cultural misunderstanding is flawed. I also notice that you've avoided mentioning the yuri scene, in favour of attacking my references to other animes.

I already mentioned the attempted rape scene as awkward and unnecessary. However, as I already pointed out nothing was shown and nothing happened, so while weird uncomfortable was not the typical ideal of fan service.

At this point, I can't really debate the issue any further on a supposidly worksafe board. However, I find it fundamentally odd that someone will complain about stereotypicaly male fan service, but will let slide fan service for more, erm, specialised tastes.

I'm not really sure what you mean by that.

Here it is in review: the bathing scene in Dynamite 7 was not that. It was not exploitive, and certainly no worse than the shower scenes in the TV series and DYRL (which had close shots of an underaged girl showering, for chrissakes). And as Renato points out, just because the bouncing boobs and fanservice has been around for a long time does not justify it's inclusion in every episode of Macross Frontier.

[wolfx]

What.....another thread gets the "zomg lolikon!" stigma now?!

Can you guys drop it already. The whole world doesn't think that every nude little boy/girl scene is exploitative or pandering to the sexually deviants.

It would seem ppl here have less tolerance on an innocent bath scene involving children compared to full blown fanservice of grown well endowed adults.

The bath scene in Mac7 Dynamite was fine and completely innocent. If it gives some weirdo the jollies good for them, though i doubt that was the intention of the producers. You wanna burn lolikons at the stake, go bash on other anime like Kodomo No Jikan or something.

[Morpheus]

The bath scene in Mac7 Dynamite was fine and completely innocent. If it gives some weirdo the jollies good for them, though i doubt that was the intention of the producers. You wanna burn lolikons at the stake, go bash on other anime like Kodomo No Jikan or something.

Or Kanokon...(runs away).

I was always thinking that Dynamite 7 is based upon Moby Dick, with those whales thingy.

[Gubaba]

I was always thinking that Dynamite 7 is based upon Moby Dick, with those whales thingy.

Ah, you're dreaming! Next you'll be saying that the Lord of the Rings movies are based on some old books!

(Seriously, I thought D7's basis is Moby-Dick was common knowledge...)

[wolfx]

Or Kanokon...(runs away).

Hmmm...isn't the cast in Kanokon past the minority age? (in Japan anyway....)

They're 16-17 iirc. Anyway i stopped watching that after ep 2.

[Ork_dreadnought]

Wow, I've really stired things up.

Oh, well, that makes it OK, then.

"Hey, that guy's racist!"

"Yeah, but racism's been around for centuries, man. Let it go."

"Oh, I see, no problem then."

As points go, that's a crude, but valid, one. I definately could have worded my post better as I don't condone fan service. I just took issue with yellowlightman's implication that Frontier was especially bad for it. The level of fanservice up until the panties episode didn't even draw my attention, and the example I gave feature far more fanservice. I'm still having a hard time processing how someone could take offence at it, without being very conservative for an anime fan.

I already mentioned the attempted rape scene as awkward and unnecessary. However, as I already pointed out nothing was shown and nothing happened, so while weird uncomfortable was not the typical ideal of fan service.

I'm not really sure what you mean by that.

Here it is in review: the bathing scene in Dynamite 7 was not that. It was not exploitive, and certainly no worse than the shower scenes in the TV series and DYRL (which had close shots of an underaged girl showering, for chrissakes). And as Renato points out, just because the bouncing boobs and fanservice has been around for a long time does not justify it's inclusion in every episode of Macross Frontier.

Fanservice literally means a service to the fans, its not tied exclusively to the gainax bounce or the panty shot. Given that both the scenes in Dynamite 7 don't really add anything to anime, and are of a vaguely sexual nature, you could argue that these were of a fanservice nature. The only question is which fans, but I think we don't need to go there.

What.....another thread gets the "zomg lolikon!" stigma now?!

Can you guys drop it already. The whole world doesn't think that every nude little boy/girl scene is exploitative or pandering to the sexually deviants.

It would seem ppl here have less tolerance on an innocent bath scene involving children compared to full blown fanservice of grown well endowed adults.

Its a matter of acceptable targets. Legal adults are ok, as cheap and lame these scenes can be. Kiddies, no. That's not a double standard, its just a matter of drawing a line between what should be considered sexual and what should not. I don't recall the Totoro scene, so I can't comment, but the Dynamite 7 seems to cross that line.

I'm going to leave this thread alone now, I've derailed it enough.

Edited June 5, 2008 by Ork_dreadnought

[Morpheus]

(Seriously, I thought D7's basis is Moby-Dick was common knowledge...)

Well, forgive me then, since I focused on the VA-3 and VF-5000 all the time and not the storyline

[wolfx]

Its a matter of acceptable targets. Legal adults are ok, as cheap and lame these scenes can be. Kiddies, no. That's not a double standard, its just a matter of drawing a line between what should be considered sexual and what should not. I don't recall the Totoro scene, so I can't comment, but the Dynamite 7 seems to cross that line.

I'm sure i won't go in with you to a hotspring or any communal bath since you consider it sexual and i may give u the wrong idea.

[Gubaba]

Well, forgive me then, since I focused on the VA-3 and VF-5000 all the time and not the storyline

That's probably the wisest way to watch D7...and ya gotta admit, for a story about space whales and space whale poachers, it's got some damn good mecha.

[Ork_dreadnought]

I'm sure i won't go in with you to a hotspring or any communal bath since you consider it sexual and i may give u the wrong idea.

Regular onsens are fine, I'd just be worried if they provided 12 year old girls to bath me. But then, I'm english, and my only experience of communal bathing is a swiming pool, so that's not unexpected.

Edited June 5, 2008 by Ork_dreadnought

[alindasue]

Fanservice literally means a service to the fans, its not tied exclusively to the gainax bounce or the panty shot. Given that both the scenes in Dynamite 7 don't really add anything to anime, and are of a vaguely sexual nature, you could argue that these were of a fanservice nature. The only question is which fans, but I think we don't need to go there.

I still fail to see where that bath scene could be considered even vaguely sexual... and I'm looking at it from the point of view of a pretty conservative mother who has several teenage and young adult daughters. Heck, the girl's father is even with them and is not bothered by it. If it were even remotely sexual, her hot-headed father would not be so calm about it, eh.

peace

[Sumdumgai]

I saw the whole onsen thing as innocent. If it wasn't innocent, I'm sure that Elma's Dad would have turned Basara into a red smear on the rocks.

MD7 brought us the VA-3 (meh), VF-5000 (woo!), VF-22 Gamlin color scheme (awesome!), and the VF-19P (very interesting). Plus we got the awesome song that is Angel Voice. I just wish that when Mari Ijima had sung it that she had done the "woah woah woah" part or some variation. I overall liked MD7, though I felt it wasn't vital to watch in the grand scheme of things Macross (easy skip for just the story).

[Ork_dreadnought]

I still fail to see where that bath scene could be considered even vaguely sexual... and I'm looking at it from the point of view of a pretty conservative mother who has several teenage and young adult daughters.

I'm just underlining two truisms:

1) Being naked with another person usually is sexual, or at least sexually akward, bar sharing a bath with your baby.

2) The well documented Lolicon trend in anime.

So sure, sometimes a cigar is just cigar, but I'm confident in my judgement. The act is not inherently dodgy, but the fact they actually animated and spent time on it looks suspicious. Any scene in an anime which features prolonged nudity (baring the baby in the bath scenario above), is almost always fanservice. I little surprised people are having difficulty with this concept.

[alindasue]

I'm just underlining two truisms:

1) Being naked with another person usually is sexual, or at least sexually akward, bar sharing a bath with your baby.

2) The well documented Lolicon trend in anime.

So sure, sometimes a cigar is just cigar, but I'm confident in my judgement. The act is not inherently dodgy, but the fact they actually animated and spent time on it looks suspicious. Any scene in an anime which features prolonged nudity (baring the baby in the bath scenario above), is almost always fanservice. I little surprised people are having difficulty with this concept.

I'm having difficulty with the concept that being naked with a person automatically implies sexuality... bringing it back to the very innocent Totoro bath scene that animators also took the time to draw and animate. The fact is that people do not generally bathe with clothes on. It's as simple as that.

Besides, Basara's tastes generally run toward older, much bustier women like Rex or Emilia. He doesn't even show any remotely sexual interest in Mylene, despite Mylene's crush on him (and fans' attempts to pair them).

Now the attempted rape scene with Mylene... from what I can see, it can be agreed that that was nothing but (rather wierd) fanservice. It wasn't perfectly normal behavior, like bathing naked is, and unlike the bath in the healing hot springs, it did nothing to further the story.

peace

[Ork_dreadnought]

I'm having difficulty with the concept that being naked with a person automatically implies sexuality... bringing it back to the very innocent Totoro bath scene that animators also took the time to draw and animate. The fact is that people do not generally bathe with clothes on. It's as simple as that.

Granted, but with people other than your family, including one of the opposite sex? Even japanese baths are segregated, and there's a reason for that. Totoro is innocent, and is possible to portray any bath scene as innocent, but the M7 isn't in my eyes. Few in animes are, the bath scene is one of the most popular fanservice cliches. Consider this: If you saw in a tabloid newspaper a rockstar being handwashed by a 14 year old groupie, would you think that was innocent?

[VFTF1]

If you saw in a tabloid newspaper a rockstar being handwashed by a 14 year old groupie, would you think that was innocent?

In the famous words of Nigel:

Yes.

VFTF1