Animation Quality of Macross Frontier

[ComicKaze]

No that's called digital painting, you don't call hand drawn and animated stuff cg, get a clue please.

Get outside if your western lexicon bubble...That's the term I have come across in Japanese artbooks and games. (Yes bishoujo stuff), it's CG sets, etc.

This is a Japanese misuse of the term but it is still relatively the most popular term for these circumstances. I hate how people abbreviated CGI to CG over here as well. Of course I know the difference but you know how the Japanese mangle terms or come up with their own combinations.

Of course I know the difference and I hate how CGI is shortened to CG all the time when speaking of actual rendered 3D.

Edited May 23, 2008 by ComicKaze

[Westlo]

Get outside if your western lexicon bubble...That's the term I have come across in Japanese artbooks and games. (Yes bishoujo stuff), it's CG sets, etc.

This is a Japanese misuse of the term but it is still relatively the most popular term for these circumstances. I hate how people abbreviated CGI to CG over here as well. Of course I know the difference but you know how the Japanese mangle terms or come up with their own combinations.

Of course I know the difference and I hate how CGI is shortened to CG all the time when speaking of actual rendered 3D.

Common sense and using the correct terms = western lexicon bubble? You know it's a misused term so why continue using it? Does Macross World look like a forum where CG sets from bishoujo/eroge games are the in thing? This is Macross World not hongfire. Stop spreading incorrect terms ffs...

Let me guess you call Alucard.... Arucard because that's how the japanese do it yeah?

Edited May 23, 2008 by Westlo

[Wes]

I think the 2D stuff does vary more, and that's going to happen when you outsource anything, especially, to other places. It has been brilliant though. I wonder if they're different people doing the characters than mech. When Alto's figher goes into the mothership was a good example.

[wolfx]

Just my two cents.

The mecha drawing, animation and choreography in Frontier is gorgeous IMO and beats any other mecha anime ever, IMO. Only some mecha scenes from Zero, Plus DYRL or original BGC come close or equal it IMO. However, the Frontier mecha animation has been consistently brilliant so far every single time the mecha have had screen time. IMO, no Gundam show can touch this on mecha animation quality.

Backgrounds in Frontier have also been simply stunning, absolutely beautiful and easily surpass the background art of pretty much any other anime I can think of.

I love the character designs in Frontier and generally the character drawing and animation have been of a high quality, although with noticable dips in quality in the actual character drawings in certain scenes, mainly in those episodes where the character animation duties have been farmed out to other studios.

Graham

Graham always positive about Macross.

I just saw episode 8, and for the life of me I can't understand what people want?!! If you think the animation is "bad" in

Macross Frontier go back and look at Macross 7!! Has it been that long? Have you forgotten basara's fire red YF-19 TRANSFORMATION, which was used over and over and over again?! Have you forgotten the "cannon fodder" scenes, or the way the characters looked even though they were rough designed by Hal himself?!! Believe me, even the worst episode

episode of MacrossF (which I would say is number 6), is an improvement over Macross 7!

Don't compare stones with coal. Compare it with gold.

While it's certainly true there was an overusage of recyled footage in Macross 7, epcecially for the stock transformation scenes and many of the combat scenes, I didn't find the overall animation quality bad at all.

I thought the character drawings and animation was pretty good and consistent throught the run of the show. There were no episodes that I can recall were there was a noticable drop in animation quality.

Note how Frontier neatly sidesteps the issue of recyling transformation scenes, by having ultra fast transformation for the VF-25.

The main thing I didn't like about Macross 7 was the somewhat washed out looking and mainly pastel colour pallet they chose to use. That was an artistic choice on the part of the production team, not a quality issue.

Graham

I overall have no qualms with Macross 7 art and animation except for the recycled animation, and also the Firebomber scenes where they just stand there, move 2 - 3 frames on loop and mouths not quite sync-ed to the songs.

Get outside if your western lexicon bubble...That's the term I have come across in Japanese artbooks and games. (Yes bishoujo stuff), it's CG sets, etc.

This is a Japanese misuse of the term but it is still relatively the most popular term for these circumstances. I hate how people abbreviated CGI to CG over here as well. Of course I know the difference but you know how the Japanese mangle terms or come up with their own combinations.

Of course I know the difference and I hate how CGI is shortened to CG all the time when speaking of actual rendered 3D.

I think the 2D stuff does vary more, and that's going to happen when you outsource anything, especially, to other places. It has been brilliant though. I wonder if they're different people doing the characters than mech. When Alto's figher goes into the mothership was a good example.

ok guys....i'm not a mod but please stop calling each other names or trying to prove who is smarter than the other. Can't we all be civil adults?

[Wes]

ok guys....i'm not a mod but please stop calling each other names or trying to prove who is smarter than the other. Can't we all be civil adults?

Namecalling? Not my intention, just saying I like the stuff but when you have different groups working on stuff the quality can vary especially when if they're not in the same room/s and talking to one another alot. Like that scene I said, when Alto's in GERWALK mode and 2D it looks flawless, but then when it turns the corner in Battroid it's not bad but clearly not as good. That seems odd because isn't it typical for the same people to be working on one scene? Makes me wonder how the project is structured.

[wolfx]

Namecalling? Not my intention, just saying I like the stuff but when you have different groups working on stuff the quality can vary especially when if they're not in the same room/s and talking to one another alot. Like that scene I said, when Alto's in GERWALK mode and 2D it looks flawless, but then when it turns the corner in Battroid it's not bad but clearly not as good. That seems odd because isn't it typical for the same people to be working on one scene? Makes me wonder how the project is structured.

Sorry...didn't mean to quote u. Was supposed to be for wetslo. XD

No idea the answer to your question, the 3D CG looks pretty consistent to me.

Probably less rendering times?

[azrael]

Bitch, whine, moan. You suck. No, you suck. You can't spell. You don't know crap. Wash. Rinse. Repeat. 1 cup of coffee ain't enough for this...

[MisaForever]

Bitch, whine, moan. You suck. No, you suck. You can't spell. You don't know poo. Wash. Rinse. Repeat. 1 cup of coffee ain't enough for this...

*hands Azrael another cup* Reasons why I don't frequent this thread

[ComicKaze]

ok guys....i'm not a mod but please stop calling each other names or trying to prove who is smarter than the other. Can't we all be civil adults?

I'm usually absolutely 100% civil and will even bend over backwards for people but Westlo's whole "get a clue" addition was totally uncalled for.

Until I discover a good compromise term for how to decribe the 2D animation in Macross Frontier, I will call it CG as that's what it is called in the anime industry and Macross Frontier is an anime.

Irregardless, this is basically what has driven me from anime almost completely. I'm only tuning into Macross Frontier because of it's Macross Connections but the art in anime post 1998 era has all been such that I can't watch anime anymore because of the heavy use of computers.

Edited May 23, 2008 by ComicKaze

[ma2ha3]

best animation ever is macross frontier

that is a fact.

it is true there is a difference in different espiode

strange

but no way phase 1 to 3 animation can be sustain throughout 25

that is impossible.

[Westlo]

I'm usually absolutely 100% civil and will even bend over backwards for people but Westlo's whole "get a clue" addition was totally uncalled for.

Until I discover a good compromise term for how to decribe the 2D animation in Macross Frontier, I will call it CG as that's what it is called in the anime industry and Macross Frontier is an anime.

Find me an anime art director who calls a hand drawn scene cg. Good thing I won't be holding my breath for a reply

Edited May 23, 2008 by Westlo

[chrono]

Oh come on, technically you're right but when people refer to CG they are talking about stuff like

http://randomc.animeblogger.net/image/Macr...0Large%2003.jpg

http://randomc.animeblogger.net/image/To%2...0Large%2033.jpg

http://randomc.animeblogger.net/image/Drag...0Large%2014.jpg

not stuff like

http://randomc.animeblogger.net/image/Macr...0Large%2019.jpg

http://randomc.animeblogger.net/image/To%2...0Large%2038.jpg

http://randomc.animeblogger.net/image/Drag...0Large%2035.jpg

If it's still hand drawn and animated I really can't call it CG even if it's digitally painted.

LOL! Now I see where your problem mainly lies.

Part of it's your assuming. "People" call 3D CG, CG because that's what they 'generally' associate it with. Anime fans have known for a while now that most anime is done on computer.

But your main issue is Human made vs Computer made(generated). The designs are ALL Human made, thus ALL of the CG is Human made, but generated on the Computer. The Computer's don't make anything except what they are told to make.

Save your brain and consider the computer as today's pencil. Well until Singularity hits then we're all screwed!

The mecha drawing, animation and choreography in Frontier is gorgeous IMO and beats any other mecha anime ever, IMO.

*facepalm*

3D cg vs 2D hand generated. You can not compare mechanical 3D vs mechanical 2D. One is technical 'perfect' everytime vs one that 'perfect' from an artistic viewpoint.

*sigh* (gods i hate that stupid kindergarden debate)

Choreography is the ONLY viable way to compare, and then that's full on subjective. IMO.

You should go watch Moonlight Mile.

[Radd]

Not to rain on anyone's parade, but even in the west, CGI means Computer Generated Image and includes 2D artwork created on the computer. So it would be more correct to say it's the term in the animation industry, not just anime-specific. When the Japanese refer to computer drawn or coloured illustration sets as "CG sets" it's not really a misuse of the term. Excluding 2D CG artwork from CGI is a misuse of the term.

Of course, CG/CGI has come to commonly mean "3D computer model artwork", but that's really slang, and incorrect on a technical level.

I don't understand Chrono's last post. You can have pretty poor 3D CGI. In fact, it's pretty rampant. You can compare 2D and 3D artwork and animation on merits of detail, motion, etcetera. Of course, I've got to run and haven't been able to read far back enough to see the post you're quoting there. I may be missing something, mea culpa in that case.

[Major Focker]

just watched Robo---- Shadow Chronicles, and can i just say that i'm so thankful that the CG on MF turned out the way it did?

i don't mean to go Robo-bashing but it's a prime example of what could go wrong based on the points mentioned earlier:

movement - i've seen some clay animation with more fluidity than the alpha battroids

detail - not bad really, but on the big ships i've seen it done better on PC games. EVE Online is probably the benchmark here

choreography - the animators probably have an aversion to rollercoasters. most of the flight paths are just straight lines from A to B

a shame really, as the movie setup some interesting premises and showed some potential of the series finally coming into its own.

my point here is, that whether animation is done full-CG, full-hand drawn, or a hybrid, it is still a piece of movie making, and if it is to distuinguish itself, it ultimately must excel in the movie basics: composition, camera work, choreography, context. and i'm just glad MF delivered on these even on the 2D segments, and yes even in episode 8 (barring a few segments ). when nitpicking, it's all too easy to lose the big picture

[Gubaba]

my point here is, that whether animation is done full-CG, full-hand drawn, or a hybrid, it is still a piece of movie making, and if it is to distuinguish itself, it ultimately must excel in the movie basics: composition, camera work, choreography, context. and i'm just glad MF delivered on these even on the 2D segments, and yes even in episode 8 (barring a few segments ). when nitpicking, it's all too easy to lose the big picture

YES! SANITY!

(And by "SANITY," I really mean "A VIEWPOINT I AGREE WITH" )

[wolfx]

Episode 10. Needless to say, Brera and Alto vs Hydra was lame.

http://www.darkmirage.com/2008/06/06/macro...tier/#more-1162

Tribute or lazy? I'm on the fence on this. Its a shame we can't see more of what happened during the "Bird Human" movie.

[Eaglearcher]

Episode 10. Needless to say, Brera and Alto vs Hydra was lame.

http://www.darkmirage.com/2008/06/06/macro...tier/#more-1162

Tribute or lazy? I'm on the fence on this. Its a shame we can't see more of what happened during the "Bird Human" movie.

I thought it was pretty clever the way they reused some backgrounds and the footages in this episode, I'm not being sarcastic. Boosted their production value by a mile, while saving the cost for new action scene... Although the fight with that cat thing was pretty bad.

[kensei]

Alto, Ranka, and Sheryl get the majority of screen time, so if you expect Satalite to draw them OVA or Movie quality in every frame you are an idiot.

QFT.

Reusing the backgrounds and animation in ep 10 was clever if anything. It is supposed to be a movie within the Macross universe after all.

Yes the Hydra animation scene was subpar, but, like most normal people, I'm over it. Not ignoring it. Water under the bridge mate.

Edited June 8, 2008 by kensei

[yellowlightman]

The mecha drawing, animation and choreography in Frontier is gorgeous IMO and beats any other mecha anime ever, IMO. Only some mecha scenes from Zero, Plus DYRL or original BGC come close or equal it IMO. However, the Frontier mecha animation has been consistently brilliant so far every single time the mecha have had screen time. IMO, no Gundam show can touch this on mecha animation quality.

You may want to take off your fanboy blinders. I love BGC to a ridiculous degree, but the animation is old and not really up to par. That said, it's pretty unfair to compare the animation quality of a 3D title vs. an old 2D title, as anime is notoriously poorly animated (notable exceptions include Akira and Ghibli films). That said in terms of detail (not fluidity of animation), CCA or 0083 certainly outshine Frontier.

I love the character designs in Frontier and generally the character drawing and animation have been of a high quality, although with noticable dips in quality in the actual character drawings in certain scenes, mainly in those episodes where the character animation duties have been farmed out to other studios.

Graham

Do you get payoffs now, Graham? Because that's a load of ****. The character animation in Frontier is HILARIOUSLY poor. The consistency in designs is awful, and most of the time they end up looking like poor fan art renditions of already boring character designs. There's a big difference between detail, consistency and actual ANIMATION. Animation is movement, just because a character is drawn with a lot of fancy coloring and set against a detailed background does not mean it's "well animated."

Edited June 9, 2008 by yellowlightman

[wolfx]

You may want to take off your fanboy blinders. I love BGC to a ridiculous degree, but the animation is old and not really up to par. That said, it's pretty unfair to compare the animation quality of a 3D title vs. an old 2D title, as anime is notoriously poorly animated (notable exceptions include Akira and Ghibli films). That said in terms of detail (not fluidity of animation), CCA or 0083 certainly outshine Frontier.

Do you get payoffs now, Graham? Because that's a load of ****. The character animation in Frontier is HILARIOUSLY poor. The consistency in designs is awful, and most of the time they end up looking like poor fan art renditions of already boring character designs. There's a big difference between detail, consistency and actual ANIMATION. Animation is movement, just because a character is drawn with a lot of fancy coloring and set against a detailed background does not mean it's "well animated."

QFT.

As much as I like Macross, i don't just diss Frontier for no reason.

Yes the Hydra animation scene was subpar, but, like most normal people, I'm over it. Not ignoring it. Water under the bridge mate.

Water under the bridge? That's sewage, mate. And it reeks.

Edited June 9, 2008 by wolfx

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

BGC was cool. The old one had a dark tone which the new one took away by making things too bright.

Old Bubblegum crisis is like terminator 1 in terms of darkness of tone. They even have a song that rips off the music in the tech noir nightclub scene.

Although I agree the movement is what counts.. If a tv series can have things that move realistically, which almost looks like an OVA or movie, then that is good.

Use of CG models for dogfights was good in macross zero: so please old school 2d guys, don't think ALL CG is evil. Just that the skills haven't had a time to mature as much. Some of my fave 3d animation is from the hentai I've seen of the females' breasts. That's what they need to do with the CG objects: give them breast...er no I mean, make them more jiggly or soft like the 2d art which could sometimes bend a little and flex a little that gave it a bit of character.. I know it might sound silly, (because these are robots) but there was just something cool (stylised movement vs realistic movement) in old school anime that I really miss. Robots sometimes benefit by having organic flesh/skin physics even though it might not seem natural for it to do. (like how cel-shading isn't natural to add to 3d objects in videogames because they are not even hand-drawn flat objects anymore but which is used just to make things look 'cool')

Argh...nevermind..just don't pick on bubblegum crisis. It's darkness and shadowy future world is what made it cool, something japanese people are not used to having in their science fiction because they are optimistic about technology being the do-gooder/heroes' ultimate solution to save everyone, when in fact it has both a dark side and light side to it, creating a grey. It's not just about who has the best weapon. It's what you do with it. The graceful movement of the knight sabers in juxtaposition with the slow mechanical and heavy movement of the bigger robots, is sort of like the difference of the old animation (it had character/attitude) to the rigid CG objects of today. (look like toys fighting sometimes! )

I like a bit of jiggly/wiggly softness to objects like the breasts on the females in hentai animations I've seen.

Just because an object IS hard in real life, doesn't mean it's cooler to have it act too realistically instead of giving it style like the 2d animators would for objects in typically hand-drawn environments where people move just a little bit more impossibly than normal to remind you that it's a fantasy fictional world and not real. (like the stylised kung fu fights in movies designed for entertainment vs real fights grounded in rules)

Edited June 9, 2008 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[kensei]

QFT.

As much as I like Macross, i don't just diss Frontier for no reason.

Water under the bridge? That's sewage, mate. And it reeks.

Yeah whatever. You're hilariously funny. You'll have to excuse me for not ranting about how there is a lack of details like animated nipples and camel toes for you to whack off over.

I would love for everything to be perfect, but I do realise that budgets are an issue, and feel like the production team have allocated it appropriately. Balance is all I could ask for. The character animation is not so horrendous that it would spoil my entire year and enjoyment of watching the entire show. I would be one to complain if it did.

Edited June 12, 2008 by kensei

[mikeszekely]

I've managed to ignore the debate about the animation quality in Frontier for awhile mostly because, despite its ups and downs, it never took me out of the story. Sure, you could maybe show me screen caps later, and I'd agree that they look kinda bad, but I don't really see it when I'm watching the episode. That is, until episode 10. I'm not talking about the fact that it's not animated as well as Zero, or that they reused a lot of Zero's backgrounds. That's all fine with me. I mean, specifically, when Alto and Brera are fighting the hydra. The animation there hit an all time low. It's like the animators decided appropriately colored fuzzy blobs were good enough.

[Skullsixx]

Love the backgrounds and mecha designs. I can deal with the character designs, but much prefer the styles we saw in Zero or Plus.

[ComicKaze]

And I thought 80s style animation and coloring techniques were a lot art to this new generation of artists...

Yay! 80s glossy coats are back! Check out her beautiful legs!

Edited June 29, 2008 by ComicKaze

[jmskie_tobie]

well for me these are good

astig!

[Renato]

And I thought 80s style animation and coloring techniques were a lot art to this new generation of artists...

Yay! 80s glossy coats are back! Check out her beautiful legs!

I was thinking the same thing. They should do that with the valks, screw CG.

Seems obvious that they used this for reference though:

[UN Spacy]

I keep getting impressed by Frontier's CGI.

How beautiful were those clouds during #12's ED?

Those beautiful warm colors really made a difference.

[mike_s_6]

And I thought 80s style animation and coloring techniques were a lot art to this new generation of artists...

Yay! 80s glossy coats are back! Check out her beautiful legs!

...I don't know but that doesn't look like 80's style to me, there's probably a lot of computers involved in drawing and coloring that one! Regardless, it looks like a beauty

[Gubaba]

Seems obvious that they used this for reference though:

Of course they did. You don't mess with perfection!

[Renato]

...I don't know but that doesn't look like 80's style to me, there's probably a lot of computers involved in drawing and coloring that one! Regardless, it looks like a beauty

He's talking about the shading style used for metals. It's definitely old-school 80s all the way, you just don't see it anymore. The Japanese perfected it, it could never be copied by anyone, but now they've lost it (except for this one pic!).

Dreamwave tried to mimic it for their Transformer comics, but it's not quite the same.

Watch Megazone 23 Part II or Dangaioh for good examples of this technique.

[mike_s_6]

He's talking about the shading style used for metals. It's definitely old-school 80s all the way, you just don't see it anymore. The Japanese perfected it, it could never be copied by anyone, but now they've lost it (except for this one pic!).

So it's the style, not the method of doing the style. Okay, I get it. But now I'm wondering why that was pointed out in this thread? (Not that anyone said we can't discuss good quality in a thread that almost entirely has been composed of bad quality discussions... so I guess we could talk about good quality in this thread too!)

[d3v]

And I thought 80s style animation and coloring techniques were a lot art to this new generation of artists...

Yay! 80s glossy coats are back! Check out her beautiful legs!

Seems like they either applies it as a skin, or they've developed a shader that does it for them.

[Renato]

Seems like they either applies it as a skin, or they've developed a shader that does it for them.

Why? That's not necessarily a 3D model. Actually, I don't think it is.

[RedWolf]

I wonder if anybody already pointed this out yet.

Frontier

Zero

Lazy animation backgrounds? Yea or Nay?