Animation Quality of Macross Frontier

[wolfx]

I'm at a customer's office so i can't see pictures put on image sharing sites (firewall...gah), so i'll go see them again when i get home.

[Graham]

Actually, I loved that shot of Sheryl in ep 4. I think she looks super cute. Definitely better than any Major Kusanagi!

Graham

[Westlo]

3D CG teams are obviously different from 2d teams people...

I do not agree with this statement.

Noein is a whole different ball game where the characters are made in that style throughout the series. The intention is for low budgets or artistic reasons or both, we won't go into it. (I personally think its both)

I'm 100% sure Frontier isn't intended to have that art "style". Hell it doesn't even start with that "style" in eps 1-2.

Noein had some episodes that were completely different from everything else.. episodes 2 and 7 come to mind... but everything else was a common theme but the designs where inconsistent.. personally I'm sick of people saying the animation in Noein sucks or is low budget.. Noein has stellar animation... it just that Satelight values movement over consistency more compared to say KyoAni. People have to remember that Satelight is the company that gave Utsunomiya almost an entire episode of Aquarion... Also you're free to feel that To Love Ru and Golgo 13 are more consistent.. but I'll take Frontier's animation over them any day of the week... the only episode that is around their level is episode 6... the rough sketchy style of 4 is far superior to anything from those shows.

Also for the people who were whining about Frontier 6 how did you react to RahXephon 21 and Gurren Lagann 04?

That's what I call a WTF opinion... (& a WTF sight!!!). Seriously... I didn't even noticed the glass in that scene. However... The way Alto makes the paper plane was SUPERB...

Scenes like that are why me and eugimon are saying episode 4 is good, seriously people what's easier to do for the dvd release? 1/ Redraw a crappy looking glass or 2/ Redo a folding the paper plane animation and make it smooth as possible. It's like people have never heard of scenes being redrawn for DVD....

Eureka Seven which is the answer Duke Clueless gave when someone said no tv series can compare to an OVA like Zero had placeholder special effects in the last tv episode.... it got fixed for the dvd... not to mention it's 3d opening got fixed as well...

Here's some screens from Nanoha StrikerS which had a lot of scenes redrawn for it's dvd release.

http://img133.imagevenue.com/img.php?image...3_122_440lo.jpg

http://img31.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=...5_122_886lo.jpg

Than you have the entire Kissdum to Kissdum R - Engage Planet release made for DVD and this is by Satelight...

Edited May 15, 2008 by Westlo

[wolfx]

3D CG teams are obviously different from 2d teams people...

Noein had some episodes that were completely different from everything else.. episodes 2 and 7 come to mind... but everything else was a common theme but the designs where inconsistent.. personally I'm sick of people saying the animation in Noein sucks or is low budget.. Noein has stellar animation... it just that Satelight values movement over consistency more compared to say KyoAni. People have to remember that Satelight is the company that gave Utsunomiya almost an entire episode of Aquarion... Also you're free to feel that To Love Ru and Golgo 13 are more consistent.. but I'll take Frontier's animation over them any day of the week... the only episode that is around their level is episode 6... the rough sketchy style of 4 is far superior to anything from those shows.

Also for the people who were whining about Frontier 6 how did you react to RahXephon 21 and Gurren Lagann 04?

Don't remember Rahxephon (which as a show i hated btw) but Lagann 04 was definately the style of that dude that also did the Aquarion dream episode. I guess he's the Utsunomiya guy u were talking about? Lagann 04 definately received tonnes of flak because of that and the original director of Gurren Lagann who was also one of the original founders of studio GAINAX had to resign due to the resulting carnage and backlash from fans.

That said, Japanese forums are already complaining about Frontier. As long as Kawamori doesn't provoke angry fans and call say that ppl on 2chan smell like a**es, Kawamori gets to keep his job and everyone will be still happy (i hope)

See.....anime is serious business.

Scenes like that are why me and eugimon are saying episode 4 is good, seriously people what's easier to do for the dvd release? 1/ Redraw a crappy looking glass or 2/ Redo a folding the paper plane animation and make it smooth as possible. It's like people have never heard of scenes being redrawn for DVD....

Eureka Seven which is the answer Duke Clueless gave when someone said no tv series can compare to an OVA like Zero had placeholder special effects in the last tv episode.... it got fixed for the dvd... not to mention it's 3d opening got fixed as well...

Here's some screens from Nanoha StrikerS which had a lot of scenes redrawn for it's dvd release.

http://img133.imagevenue.com/img.php?image...3_122_440lo.jpg

http://img31.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=...5_122_886lo.jpg

Than you have the entire Kissdum to Kissdum R - Engage Planet release made for DVD and this is by Satelight...

I will have to watch that fixed 3rd OP of Eureka, Taiyou No Mannaka He. That was horrid in the broadcast edition.

StrikerS was horrible horrible and horrible. DVD fix or not....nothing can do to patch that piece of ....yeah.

Anyway point is, getting things right the 1s time round is better than spending more money to "redraw" scenes for the DVD release and shouldn't be consolation that it should look good in the DVD release. If To Love Ru has to redraw anything, it would only be the nipples. Btw i am not watching To Love Ru.

[Westlo]

Anyway point is, getting things right the 1s time round is better than spending more money to "redraw" scenes for the DVD release and shouldn't be consolation that it should look good in the DVD release. If To Love Ru has to redraw anything, it would only be the nipples. Btw i am not watching To Love Ru.

Personally I think the way they broadcast anime is flawed... I would rather see series air for 13 weeks, have a 13 week brake and than conclude with its final 13... similar to how American tv shows have their mid season brakes for Heroes and the like. And don't get me started on the filler crap like Naruto, Bleach and what got Rurouni Kenshin canceled... Even GITS SAC which had 2 episodes a month and had about 10 episodes animated prior to the first episode airing had dips in aniamtion later on...

And yes Xebec are redrawing nipples for the dvd release of To Love Ru... lol just like how the manga volumes have nipples while the chapters in WSJ do not.

Edited May 15, 2008 by Westlo

[Morpheus]

I found out that the manga has better quality

[grss1982]

You're ALL morons. The animation in Frontier sucks. All of it. No exceptions.

Not only is the multi-million-selling Shadow Chronicles in a different class entirely, but Macross Froniter doesn't even come close to the high standard of quality set by Robotech II: The Sentinels (and bettered by Robotech 3000).

I tried to watch the so-called "Deculture" edition, and thought the character art was so sloppy that Alto-whatsisname was going to start crying, "My spoon is too big!"

Can't agree more. At least Shadow Chronicles...the 2D was awesome....Marlene's boobs were so real....and Rick Hunter's beard...check out that detail compared to the vomit on Sheryl's hair!

@wolfx & Gubaba:

I just don't know if you guys are just be sarcastic or what.

Anyways, did anybody ever make comments about the CG of MF? I'm thinking that CG is still covered under "Animation Quality," yes?

[Morpheus]

Anyways, did anybody ever make comments about the CG of MF? I'm thinking that CG is still covered under "Animation Quality," yes?

CG is quite consistent since they got the 3D model of it even at low poly. The problem with CG is that you must balance the deadline limit with the scene rendering time, so I don't expect a scene with dozens of Valk dogfighting Vajras will be done in CG since the rendering time will take too long for one scene.

If the character is also drawn in 3D CG, I think there will be no bitchering about it

[wolfx]

Personally I think the way they broadcast anime is flawed... I would rather see series air for 13 weeks, have a 13 week brake and than conclude with its final 13... similar to how American tv shows have their mid season brakes for Heroes and the like. And don't get me started on the filler crap like Naruto, Bleach and what got Rurouni Kenshin canceled... Even GITS SAC which had 2 episodes a month and had about 10 episodes animated prior to the first episode airing had dips in aniamtion later on...

And yes Xebec are redrawing nipples for the dvd release of To Love Ru... lol just like how the manga volumes have nipples while the chapters in WSJ do not.

Actually even 26 episodes and breaks inbetween seem to be sufficient. They're doing that now with 00 and Code Geass which i have not seen dips in animation quality, but eugimon seems to think otherwise. If they could do it in the past with older shows, i don't see why they need to reduce the episodes-per-season more.

@wolfx & Gubaba:

I just don't know if you guys are just be sarcastic or what.

Anyways, did anybody ever make comments about the CG of MF? I'm thinking that CG is still covered under "Animation Quality," yes?

I'll leave that to your imagination.

I think nobody has complaints about the 3D CG yet, except the forum sarcasm trolls.

CG is quite consistent since they got the 3D model of it even at low poly. The problem with CG is that you must balance the deadline limit with the scene rendering time, so I don't expect a scene with dozens of Valk dogfighting Vajras will be done in CG since the rendering time will take too long for one scene.

If the character is also drawn in 3D CG, I think there will be no bitchering about it

How long does it take to render 3D scenes actually? Sounds long.

[eugimon]

chrono has complained bitterly about the CG since the beginning.

[Graham]

chrono has complained bitterly about the CG since the beginning.

Heh, chrono's complained about everything.

Graham

[Morpheus]

chrono has complained bitterly about the CG since the beginning.

Since they remove the details in the ships to speed up the rendering times. Most of the models in MF right now are using textures with low poly models.

[Sergorn]

Actually, I loved that shot of Sheryl in ep 4. I think she looks super cute.

QFT.

If *that* is supposed to be a poor looking shot, geez they can make a lot mot shots like this as far as I'm concerned :-P That Sheryl shot is beautiful.

As long as Macross Frontier doesn't start looking like the manga (which IMO looks amateurish as best) I'll be happy personally

Personally I think the way they broadcast anime is flawed... I would rather see series air for 13 weeks, have a 13 week brake and than conclude with its final 13... similar to how American tv shows have their mid season brakes for Heroes and the like.

Boy I agree ! It's even truer for long-winded series adaptated from exsisting Manga - the way they just "have" to broadcast one episode a week just lead to very uneven quality (from good to downright awful), not to mention terrible crappy filler stories and episode. It make me whish they'd just go and take six month breaks for everything.

-Sergorn

[Tobi54]

What's the point of that? The first shot is a 3/4 profile with lighting to the side, the 2nd had a strong light source from the back. Of course details are going to be washed out. Go try it for yourself, have a friend stand with his back to the morning sun and then try looking up at his face and see how much you can make out.

I was going to put the description "but not exactly the same shot" etc but I figured I didnt need to, and even taking everything into consideration the image is still looks flat, and the detail is lacking, there's more scenes like that, and we can't blame all of them on the angle or light. Either way, the only way these seem to pop out to me is because comparable shots look completly amazing in one EP and flat the next.

How long does it take to render 3D scenes actually? Sounds long.

Depends on different factors, detail of the models, how intricate the scenes are, and CPU power, the more money you throw at it, the faster it renders CGI has been superb so far, and EP 7 looks like it's going to take the cake this week. I agree with whoever said that they are allocating the budget the best way they can between episodes, I'm sure the drop in EP 6 was due to EP 7 coming up, which looks to be huge.

Quote from the CG work on the Tranformers movie:

Optimus Prime had 10,108 parts that all had to move and interact so they’re the most complicated physical models ILM’s ever made. Pirates of the Caribbean had some big shots in terms of rendering but ours reached a record. If you had 3 robots in the shot it took 38 hours to render one frame of film, and you’ve got 24 frames per second, so it was quite extensive.

This is just to give an idea on how rendering works.

Question, does anyone know what type of mastering it's been used for Frontier?

[ma2ha3]

graphic is awesome on frontier

there are place where face and item are drawn with very roughly - this is done intentionally for artistic reason

we have to ask the producer the reason behind it. but i support it and i like it.

[Duke Togo]

SDF Macross was animated over 25 years ago, lets not be all happy because Frontier looks better than it.

And I forgot who pointed this out earlier, but I think the real discussion to be had is about consistency in the art, and not the animation. Eureka Seven, Planetes, Mushi-shi, they all looked the same from the beginning to the end. Gurren Lagann is the one that reminds me most of Frontier, including some serious issues around episodes 4 & 5 (and the backlash that came out of 2chan). I think (for those of us who have seen it) that in the end, they ended up doing just fine. Its a worry, but right now its only one episode. If five episodes from now this is still an issue, I think we'll see a few more people concerned with it. As far right now I'd say the story, the CG work, and the backgrounds have made up fr any shortcoming in the 2D animation. And I think its the story that will end up making or breaking Macross F (and so far its making it).

[Duke Togo]

Depends on different factors, detail of the models, how intricate the scenes are, and CPU power, the more money you throw at it, the faster it renders CGI has been superb so far, and EP 7 looks like it's going to take the cake this week. I agree with whoever said that they are allocating the budget the best way they can between episodes, I'm sure the drop in EP 6 was due to EP 7 coming up, which looks to be huge.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't Frontier supposedly have a rather huge budget for an animated TV series?

[Tobi54]

Please correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't Frontier supposedly have a rather huge budget for an animated TV series?

From a production stand point we can make an educated guess and say that it has a pretty big budget, how big exactly who knows, but I doubt it's as big as other better-known, or more popular shows, if I had to guess, Satelight is doing more with less, in other words they are putting out a lot of quality work compared to the budget they're working with, we also have to keep in mind that as a package Frontier is pretty ahead of the curve, CGI work, Music, mechanical design, action choreography, editing, backgrounds, honestly I haven't seen any TV show with backgrounds that look like anything in Frontier.

Hopefully later on we'll get actual budget numbers on a per-episode basis, if it turns out to be less than what we're guessing, it'll just show how good Satelight has become at delivering production value.

[Westlo]

Actually even 26 episodes and breaks inbetween seem to be sufficient. They're doing that now with 00 and Code Geass which i have not seen dips in animation quality, but eugimon seems to think otherwise. If they could do it in the past with older shows, i don't see why they need to reduce the episodes-per-season more.

Uh the first season of Code Geass is very poor at times... Idolmaster Xenoglossia is vastly superior effort from Sunrise.. Code Geass suffers from excessive panning and the actual animation is very lacking... of course some scenes look great like Suzaku/Lancelot Vs Kallen/Gurren but overall it's very average.. Bee Train animated a few episodes of Code Geass as well... Frontier kicks the poo out of Geass in the 2d animation department... 00 had very tight fight scenes but the character animation is nowhere near as good as Frontier has been at times... the best example of a well animated 26 episode tv series is Production I.G's Seirei no Moribito... and even then you can see dips in animation..

Code Geass R2 is a big improvement on the first season... of course it's because it has a bigger budget since the first season was a massive seller on dvd... it saddens me that some people can't notice that... way less panning and the fluidness of the characters is much improved. Still hasn't reached the peaks of Frontiers best efforts or Soul Eater for this Spring Season but it's very consistent.

[Gubaba]

@wolfx & Gubaba:

I just don't know if you guys are just be sarcastic or what.

Anyways, did anybody ever make comments about the CG of MF? I'm thinking that CG is still covered under "Animation Quality," yes?

Sarcastic? Moi?

Seriously, I think the CG has been quite impressive, especially considering it's a TV series. No, it doesn't look as good as M0, but at least we don't have to wait six months between episodes.

The 2D hanimation has been ranging from very nice to (occasionally) bad, but nothing that's been a deal breaker for me. I'd like it if they improved some of it for the DVD version, but it's not necessary (for me, at least).

[eugimon]

I was going to put the description "but not exactly the same shot" etc but I figured I didnt need to, and even taking everything into consideration the image is still looks flat, and the detail is lacking, there's more scenes like that, and we can't blame all of them on the angle or light. Either way, the only way these seem to pop out to me is because comparable shots look completly amazing in one EP and flat the next.

I have no idea how you guys can watch episode 4 and say "detail is lacking"... in every shot when characters move, their hair and clothes get their own animation and there's plenty of detail in both. The whole "lack of detail" argument falls on how obviously the nose is drawn, from what I can tell of the complaints... but you guys completely ignore everything else. For instance, In the Sheryl shot, look at all the detail just in the hair alone and compare that to any shot in ep 6, there's no comparison. Look at her hands and clothes, there's plenty of detail. Even in a quick shot of the elder Saotome denying his son, when he turns his head away, his hair gets his own animation. Or when Alto is preening, how his hair moves in reaction to alto's movements. Same with earings and clothes. Anything that should move, moves and gets its own animation. Like what Macro KK walks away, her hair bounces as well as that little bit of cloth that covers the back of her head. Only, that cloth doesn't just move with the hair, but it REACTS to the hair, the hair bounces and causes the cloth to move. I'm at a complete loss as to how you guys can see that level of character animation and still say that the level of animation is lacking.

Again, you guys are confusing style for quality as it relates to episode 4.

Edited May 15, 2008 by eugimon

[Tobi54]

I have no idea how you guys can watch episode 4 and say "detail is lacking"... in every shot when characters move, their hair and clothes get their own animation and there's plenty of detail in both. The whole "lack of detail" argument falls on how obviously the nose is drawn, from what I can tell of the complaints... but you guys completely ignore everything else. For instance, In the Sheryl shot, look at all the detail just in the hair alone and compare that to any shot in ep 6, there's no comparison. Look at her hands and clothes, there's plenty of detail. Even in a quick shot of the elder Saotome denying his son, when he turns his head away, his hair gets his own animation. Or when Alto is preening, how his hair moves in reaction to alto's movements. Same with earings and clothes. Anything that should move, moves and gets its own animation. Like what Macro KK walks away, her hair bounces as well as that little bit of cloth that covers the back of her head. Only, that cloth doesn't just move with the hair, but it REACTS to the hair, the hair bounces and causes the cloth to move. I'm at a complete loss as to how you guys can see that level of character animation and still say that the level of animation is lacking.

Again, you guys are confusing style for quality as it relates to episode 4.

I was referring to the detail of the art in comparison to previous Episodes, not the actual animation/movement, which I have no real problem with.

[eugimon]

I was referring to the detail of the art in comparison to previous Episodes, not the actual animation/movement, which I have no real problem with.

again... STYLE.

[Tobi54]

again... STYLE.

So, when I say "lack of detail" you associate that directly to the animation, even though I specifically adressed the actual art? you said this:

Episode 4 had a LOT of character movement but the style was loose and at times, almost sketchy

And I agree, we're using different terminology but we're referring to the same thing.

[Hikuro]

I'm sorry, but alot of you are spoiled little brats if you're bitching about animation and comparing it to something else. Personally, I don't give a hoot if a scene looks particularly bad or awkward in it's shot, as long as it gets its point across on what it's trying to bring to me story wise, I'm happy.

I've learned enough about anime to take in the good and the bad and accept it. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A PERFECTLY ANIMATED SERIES.

[eugimon]

So, when I say "lack of detail" you associate that directly to the animation, even though I specifically adressed the actual art? you said this:

And I agree, we're using different terminology but we're referring to the same thing.

but there is plenty of detail. Look at the curls in her hair. or the attention to detail in her hands or clothes. That is all detail.

[Tobi54]

I'm sorry, but alot of you are spoiled little brats if you're bitching about animation and comparing it to something else. Personally, I don't give a hoot if a scene looks particularly bad or awkward in it's shot, as long as it gets its point across on what it's trying to bring to me story wise, I'm happy.

I've learned enough about anime to take in the good and the bad and accept it. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A PERFECTLY ANIMATED SERIES.

Then what are you doing in this thread? I mean, we're having a pretty good discussion so far, we all may not agree with each other, but we're not calling each other names, and definetly not preaching to each other.

I think it's safe to assume we're all here because we like Macross, I think we have the right to talk about the good and the not so good aspects of it, some people had problems with the character designs, some people don't like story arc, are you going to flame them too?

[eugimon]

Then what are you doing in this thread? I mean, we're having a pretty good discussion so far, we all may not agree with each other, but we're not calling each other names, and definetly not preaching to each other.

I think it's safe to assume we're all here because we like Macross, I think we have the right to talk about the good and the not so good aspects of it, some people had problems with the character designs, some people don't like story arc, are you going to flame them too?

yup, I agree. This has been a frank but polite conversation for the most part (besides the fun sniping wolfx and I have had at each other, but still in fun) there's no need for name calling or insults.

[Tobi54]

but there is plenty of detail. Look at the curls in her hair. or the attention to detail in her hands or clothes. That is all detail.

Yes it is, I'm not of the opinion that it's bad, my observation was that is not as good as other episodes, that's it. I know it's normal for some inconsistency here and there, I'm just pointing it out where I see it.

[eugimon]

Yes it is, I'm not of the opinion that it's bad, my observation was that is not as good as other episodes, that's it. I know it's normal for some inconsistency here and there, I'm just pointing it out where I see it.

well, my apologies then, I thought you were in the same camp as the people who are saying that episdoe 4 was just as bad as episode 6 and an example of "bad animation".

As you pointed out, I agree that episode 4 has a different style of animation, I just don't think that it's an example of bad animation.

[VFTF1]

I guess this is a valid discussion topic but -

For my part, I must admit that I have NEVER had a problem with ANY animation in ANY cartoon or anime...

This is because I immediately get sucked into the "world" that the animation creates - and if it happens to be "badly animated" - well - what you call "bad animation" is just a world that looks different then how you think it ought to or to what you're used to.

I love cartoons and anime and I love all of the various styles and interpretations of every-day objects - it's like living art - the artist doesn't just create a frame - but an entire moving world....

Imagine if instead of just one painting, all of Michealangelo's frescos moved and interacted - imagine if it was a comic book:) ...which actually it sort of is - since all of those old frescos and stuff in Churches and cathedrals were meant to tell the stories of the religion to people who didn't know how to read and fell alseep when the Priest was talking about it ...

So overall - I never actually criticize animation... even when it is "blatantly" inconsistent - I much prefer to come up with crazy rationals that explain away the inconsistency - good fodder for fanfiction and fuel for the imagination I say!

What I like most about Macross Frontier is how cute Ranka's character design is - her hair is modeled after a Beagle's ears - and it gives her the cute puppy demeanor - but her face is that of a beautiful young woman. I like Alto's feminine looks juxtaposed with his massively manly attitude and emotions. Very nice contrast. Ozma is the most "normal" character of the bunch - and the most "realistic" looking (well, Cathy too... meant for eachother?? )

Sheryl I had trouble warming too - she actually has a very unique face - a very strong, manly face - and I just don't go for that -but I have warmed to her much more now that she's warmed to Ranka. I've decided that Sheryl's "I'm a biatch!" routine is part of the act. Deep down she's a softy

But in general - it's hard for me to criticize animated stuff. More likely I just won't like the "world" that an animated show is ..er...showing me...

VFTF1

[bsu legato]

chrono has complained bitterly everything since the beginning of MW.

Fixed.

And if MW had one of those "reputation" features, I would give it to Gubaba for his Rejected reference. Silly Hats Only!

[Duke Togo]

Seems to be plenty of complaining going on in Japan over the art too (atleast on 2chan). Though, from the screen shots I have seen, I think episode 7 is back to the quality of the first 5 episodes.

[azrael]

Seems to be plenty of complaining going on in Japan over the art too (atleast on 2chan). Though, from the screen shots I have seen, I think episode 7 is back to the quality of the first 5 episodes.

2ch complains just as much as 4chan.

[Duke Togo]

Well, episode 7 was back to the status quo, and it looks like 8 will be the same, as well. No complaints here.