Macross Frontier Mecha/Technology Thread II *Read 1st Post*

[Mr March]

It could be just momentum. If you fold while moving, you defold with the same momentum. In SDF Macross, the Supervision Army Gunboat defolds while moving fast because it was escaping. Britai's fleet was involved in a slow, methodical search, so they defolded while moving slow. Bodolzaa's fleet flagship and the Factory Satellite folded while stationary so they appear the same way.

Course, the YF-19's defold kinda throws my theory out

[Master Dex]

I would think the mystery behind space folding isn't so grandiose. We have to remember that the term 'space fold' isn't something Macross made up, it is an actual term used to describe how a wormhole works in modern physics. I believe all a space fold is is simple... folding space, and then a tunnel is made breaching through that folded space to the other side, hence the gate affect in Frontier, and the tunnel effect whilst in fold. Think of space as a flat plain, like a piece of paper. If you were to walk from once side of the paper to the other, the length is simply the same as the length of the paper. If you fold the paper a number of times (using an accordion like folding or just folding in half), then the distance to walk from one side to the other is shorter. So there is two parts I believe, the actual folding of space then getting across the fold itself, which is much faster than just flying through the long abyss of space.

Like I've said in other threads such as the sci-fi in Macross thread where I talked about folding there as well (and nuclear engines), this is the kind of thing I do, I get to the bottom of how things work in sci-fi because I want to know what may be possible, even if it is all theoretical now. Often it will seem like these things are simply plot magic just to tell a story, but you'd be surprised how much work that writers put into trying to make the science work, even if it ends up only as theory. I can't say for fact the writers for Macross have done this though, but it sounds like it.

There are so many ideas for FTL in Sci-fi from Warp drive, to Hyperspace, to space folding a.k.a. artificially generated wormholes. All of them rely on the existance of extra dimensions we can't perceive, but many theories like String and M theory say there are other dimensions we don't see, and Einstein's work has postulated the existance of natural wormholes (however random and un-travelable those ones are). However I believe that apart form warp drive from Star Trek, the idea of space folding from Macross seems one of the more plausible ideas of Space Travel that humanity might one day have (in contrast to the hyperdrive of Babylon 5 and Star Wars, which are different but operate on similar principles). As to why how the entering and exiting of the fold appears different in each series, well it shouldn't matter, but I'd say animators prerogative.

Edited May 29, 2008 by Master Dex

[Mr March]

You know, many sci-fi fans say that and I have to say I can't disagree more. Star Trek's warp drive is just as fantastical if not more so than Faster-Than-Light (FTL) in Star Wars or Babylon 5. Though each works differently, all Star Wars or Babylon 5 does is place a ship into a convenient space, a fictional space which conveniently ignores the laws of physics. Ships fly around normally in this "hyperspace" but just happen to cover far, FAR more distance than normal. By contrast, Trek's warp stuff actually breaks the laws of physics in real space, using this weird "warp field" to shrink/expand the space around the ship over and over again really quickly to move really, really fast. Then on top of that, it breaks the light speed barrier in real space by somehow shunting the ship's mass into it's own convenient space called "subspace" which bypasses the infinite energy required to break the light speed barrier. So Trek is actually breaking more laws of physics than the often labeled "fantasy" technology of other sci-fi shows. Gawd, I hate Trek

Digressing back to Macross, the word "fold" is actually misleading when describing they way FTL is achieved in Macross. A space fold isn't actually a method of "travel" at all. All a fold does is simply swap two spaces with each other, real space and super dimension space. If an object, like a space craft, just happens to be inside this "space swapping" when it occurs, the object is moved from one place to another effectively faster than light. The way it's described in the Macross Compendium, FTL in Macross is actually more an incidental benefit of discovering a way to reach super dimension space.

Edited May 29, 2008 by Mr March

[Zinjo]

If a fold is indeed an artificial wormhole, then the animated effect is similar to the wormhole effect used in DS9. A ring of energy that one can pass through. Whether SD Space is that space between the entry and exit portal is debatable, but most plausible.

It also makes me wonder if fold faults also limit the size of the entry portal, thus limiting the ability of larger ships to pass through due to a smaller aperture for them to enter SD Space.

The PC were able to tap into SD Space as an energy source, thus fold drives and SD Cannons were born, not to mention the PD...

Edited May 29, 2008 by Zinjo

[Master Dex]

You should be ashamed at yourself for saying you hate Trek Mr March, such blasphemy. I've met your misconception far too often. You have misread how warp drive in Star Trek works. You just explained Alcubierre drive, which was a theory Mexican scientist Miguel Alcubierre came up with as a possible way of how warp drive works in Star Trek. The In-universe explanation, while no more achievable by todays standards is very different than Alcubierre's theory. If you want me to explain how the in universe warp drive works in Star Trek (as designed by Michael Okuda), I will, but I have a feeling not everyone cares to read that (I'm not getting out of it, if you want to hear it I'll list it out, in that excruciating way I do sometimes). Subspace is more important in the in-universe theory than the Alcubierre drive which doesn't necessarily mention subspace at all, just stretching space around the ship, but in Star Trek subspace doesn't really follow your idea of 'convenient space' although I agree with you that the hyperdrive in Star Wars and B5 does utilize your idea of 'convenient space.'

Actually Alcubierre drive doesn't really use convenient space as you describe it, just the ship riding in between the forward space being contracted and the behind space expanded which acts like a spatial rubber band the ship is riding on, hence it is space moving and not the ship, therefor bypassing special relativity supposedly (it is important to remember it is theory). The way I was understanding your meaning of convenient space is that other dimensional space where light conveniently travels at a faster rate so you can also go faster there, or as in B5 the universe is conveniently smaller in this space so you can again go farther. While Alcubierre requires you to manipulate space which probably uses other dimension stuff to do so, I don't believe you are in another space. The in universe warp drive however does put you in subspace, but not in the same way I believe as it is explained how the ship moves, but this post is long enough as it is, so if you wish me to go over how Michael Okuda explains warp drive in Star Trek, I will, but I'm going to cut this post off now.

[Master Dex]

If a fold is indeed an artificial wormhole, then the animated effect is similar to the wormhole effect used in DS9. A ring of energy that one can pass through. Whether SD Space is that space between the entry and exit portal is debatable, but most plausible.

It also makes me wonder if fold faults also limit the size of the entry portal, thus limiting the ability of larger ships to pass through due to a smaller aperture for them to enter SD Space.

The PC were able to tap into SD Space as an energy source, thus fold drives and SD Cannons were born, not to mention the PD...

I see Fold faults as like dead space areas, meaning an area of realspace we can travel through in sublight, but SD space doesn't exist there, so you can't create a fold. I was assuming Super Dimensional space to not be a realm like hyperspace but just a name of sorts to the dimension or dimensions being used to create a wormhole, as the theoretical real life wormholes supposedly only exist because of extra dimensions (for the record I subscribe to M Theory which postulates at least 11 dimensions, so I do believe in more than the known 4 dimensions).

However as Mr March said, apparently there is an offical explanation for space fold from the Compendium, I didn't know that. I rather like the idea of folding space more, but if that is the official in universe explanation, then so be it.

[DestroidDefender]

There seem to have been some artistic changes in how space folding works in the Macross universe between SDF:M and MacF. In the original TV series (IIRC) folding seem appears to be instantaneous - pop out in one place and pop back in in another. In DYRL the Zentraedi ships are seen traveling through fold space with appropriate psychedelic effects. That seems to have been carried through to MacF - the difference being ships are now shown "piercing" the fabric of space rather than just fading out.

I don't really see any real difference between space folding in MacF and FTL drives in other SF shows. The FTL fires up and creates an opening/bubble/field around/inside/near/in front of the ship that cancels the lightspeed limit of our universe. The ship jumps/warps/sidles into warp/sub/super/fold/ultra/bacon/hyper-space and off it goes.

[Master Dex]

I don't really see any real difference between space folding in MacF and FTL drives in other SF shows. The FTL fires up and creates an opening/bubble/field around/inside/near/in front of the ship that cancels the lightspeed limit of our universe. The ship jumps/warps/sidles into warp/sub/super/fold/ultra/bacon/hyper-space and off it goes.

When you put it that way, yeah they are all similar. However when dealing with manipulating the fabric of space time, you need to be specific and when you get into the specifics on how things work like I like to spend my time doing, you start seeing the differences.

Bacon-space, sounds very tasty.

[Shun]

hmmm.. nobody mentioned the movie Event Horizon? in that story a 'space fold' is achieved by an 'artificial' blackhole which pulls two points of physical space together, so that the ship can just step thru the 'wormhole' and arrive almost instantaneously on the other side. of cos it didnt really end up like what the theory says

nice horror show

[Mr March]

It's my opinion and I'm entitled, with all due respect The only ones who should be ashamed are those who support Trek as some bastion of most-accurate sci-fi. Trek is an affront to science, committing more crimes against it and spreading more pseudoscience than all other sci-fi franchises combined. As for warp, it functions as I've described, barring any hack-of-the-week revisions that have been made (of which I've no doubt there are thousands by now).

Back to Macross, here's how fold is described according to the Macross Compendium:

http://macross.anime.net/wiki/Fold

A type of warp (or what is called super-light-velocity spatial displacement) navigation that can travel ultra long distances nearly instantaneously. To explain in simple terms, a fold transports a spacecraft in a very short amount of time by first swapping the location of the spacecraft with super dimension space or subspace, and then swapping the super dimension space with the space at the destination.

According to U.N. Spacy First Lieutenant Misa Hayase during Space War I (2009-2010), an hour passes in super dimension space as approximately ten days passes in normal space. The act of entering super dimension space is called a "fold in." When arriving at the destination, the act of leaving super dimension space is called a "defold" or a "fold out."

[Master Dex]

It's my opinion and I'm entitled, with all due respect The only ones who should be ashamed are those who support Trek as some bastion of most-accurate sci-fi. Trek is an affront to science, committing more crimes against it and spreading more pseudoscience than all other sci-fi franchises combined. As for warp, it functions as I've described, barring any hack-of-the-week revisions that have been made (of which I've no doubt there are thousands by now).

Back to Macross, here's how fold is described according to the Macross Compendium:

http://macross.anime.net/wiki/Fold

Yes you are entitled to your opinion, and I have no problem with that, Trek means a lot to me as it is what inspired me to want to be an Astronautical Engineer. Don't get me wrong though, I don't see Trek being any more accurate than any other Sci-fi... that's why they call it Science Fiction. Parts of Science Fiction becomes Science Fact every day though, not to say that anything major from Star Trek has become real specifically, I'm just saying it is a window to possibilities. The show isn't trying to base itself on what we know to be true now (obviously) but what might be possible. I'd have to imagine in 300 years we might have a different understanding of science than we do now, and thats how you need to look at it, not with the idea of science as we have today but how it might change based on discoveries and innovations. Apart from that, you are absolutely right, not much in Star Trek has any basis in science as we know it, it is still science fiction. As for warp, I the only theories I know on Star Trek warp are the Alcubierre drive and the 'Okuda drive' which is supposedly the in universe explanation by Michael Okuda, who designed a lot of the stuff for TNG. There probably are many revisions, but your version sounds like a revision of the Alcubierre concept I've read about. However, it matters not, the issue is behind us. Let us move on to Macross-stuff.

Onto the fold, indeed then if the compendium says it that must be how it works in the Macross Universe, I was giving my idea how it worked based on modern day wormhole theory.

So on that note, the Trek discussion is closed and I think we can only speculate on the fold faults until they give a better explanation in the universe. And just so I can annoy you (even if it doesn't I can have fun with it): Live Long and Prosper .

[d3v]

Back to Macross, here's how fold is described according to the Macross Compendium:

http://macross.anime.net/wiki/Fold

Makes you wonder though since the more recent series seem to have disregarded the whole time thing altogether. Fold communication makes things even more confusing since we see some examples of 2-way fold communication occurring in real time.

Unless off course the initial fold Misa and co. experienced in SDFM was a super long range fold while the folds we've seen in more recent series are relatively short.

Edited May 30, 2008 by d3v

[Mr March]

Master Dex

Actually, TOS is the only Trek that was any good

d3v

Keep in mind it was also Misa who said it. Humans at the time, even humans as highly intelligent as our beloved Misa, had a child's understanding of fold travel and the one fold operation they did make was botched to hell. The Macross Compendium does confirm that fold travel is nearly instantaneous. Like you say, it's probably only really long distances that require ships to stay in super dimension space for extended periods of time. The trip Misa, Hikaru, Kakizaki and Max took aboard Britai's ship could have been a journey to the other side of the Milky Way Galaxy, a trip possibly more than 100,000 light years. Most fold communication would likely take place over a few hundred or thousand light years. The relays of the Galaxy Network Signal might also play a role, perhaps acting as boosters of a sort speeding the energy of radio waves through fold space much faster than could be achieved with matter. Maybe?

[mikeszekely]

Look, I'm not going to get into how real or fantastic Star Trek's technology is in general. But with regards to Trek's warp theory, I was under the impression that the warp drive creates a field that allows a ship to accelerate out of normal space and into subspace. While this sounds like it ignores physics, an article I read in Popular Science basically concluded that creating a field around a ship and accelerating it into another dimension is possible with quantum physics as it's understood by many theories. And what's subspace but another dimension?

Of course, you do apparently have to break the laws of physics to decelerate without destroying the ship. And that still leaves you in the other dimension, mind you. I guess they're still working on how you'd get back into normal space.

[Fade Rathnik]

I think at this point its safe to say that Hyperspace, subspace, and SD space are more or less the same thing. They are all extra dimensional references that go beyond the established 4 dimensions of space and time.

[Master Dex]

Fade Rathnik

They all all the same thing, just different names for extra dimensions being used for superluminal travel.

mikeszekely

Your close to the Okuda method, but his method which he created around the TNG times gets really complicated. I don't want to bother describing it and besides this is a Macross forum, not much of a place for Trek talk (well unless it is taken to the Anime and Sci-fi forum).

March

Sounds like you from what I can gather, TOS was when they didn't have any explanation for warp drive. Back then it was just a fancy name for a reason they can travel faster than light and go so many places, but it inspired generations to come. Every trekkie loves TOS, but I happen to be one that likes them all (except for Star Trek V, that was bad.... and the Voyager episode Threshold... that just didn't happen, it is too wrong.....)

[papabear]

If the Vajra are grown, what do you think feed upon in order to grow to adult size?

Edited May 30, 2008 by papabear

[Kronnang Dunn]

If the Vajra are grown, what do you think feed upon in order to grow to adult size?

Super Dimension Resonance Crystals?

Does anybody has a clear pic of the derelict ship that had the eggs?

Btw... Now is pretty clear that the VF-27 has Galaxy and NUNS logos on it...

Edited May 30, 2008 by Kronnang Dunn

[d3v]

If the Vajra are grown, what do you think feed upon in order to grow to adult size?

Song Energy .

[Master Dex]

Song Energy .

It just... won't... die...

[grss1982]

Is it just me or did the VF-171 in the flashback use a Sniper Gun Pod?

So it seems the "Sniper VF" was not a concept that originated from the VF-25. Intersting.

Also, according to the pics that "Nexx Stalker" posted at the Episode 9 Thread. It seems like the VF-27 also has a knife. It somewhat integrated to the shield. Hmmm......

Edited May 30, 2008 by grss1982

[Mr March]

Fade Rathnik

I agree, which is why I like the term "convenient space"

Master Dex

Yeah, TOS was before any pretensions were made about the tech. IMO, it was much better off without the pseudoscience

papabear

I wonder if perhaps the Vajra have a link to super dimension space, much like the Protoculture's old "Evil" series Zentradi, with super dimension organs and all?

grss1982

Yeah I noticed that one as well. Looks like valkyrie sniper rifles have been around for a long time. This isn't without prescedent though. Numerous heavy guns have been part of Macross since DYRL's Double Beam Cannon on the VF-1S Strike Valkyrie, then continued with weapons like the YF-19 Heavy Weapons Cluster, the VF-11 Protect Armor Long-Range High-Piercing-Round Gun Pod and the VF-17 Beam Gun Adaptor.

And great catch on the VF-27's knife shield! I never noticed that until you mentioned it. It appears possible that blade runs the length of the shield, perhaps actually being more the size of a machette or short sword.

[s001]

Anyone else noticed that both VF-25 and VF-27 have the same transformation system?

Edited May 30, 2008 by s001

[azrael]

Anyone else noticed that both VF-25 and VF-27 have the same transformation system?

Yes...and?

[Zinjo]

A part of me wonders if the automated fold system aboard the Macross used a form of omni-directional barrier before it folded?

With the new series showing the fold as a portal as opposed to an event, is it not possible that the city on South Ataria island was scooped out by a barrier?

The crew wouldn't know about the omni barrier since the fold system was lost after they re-emerged in normal space. They later constructed one with the remnants of the fold system, which makes me wonder if the the barrier was somehow originally integrated into the system by the PC and only used in extreme emergencies like we saw in M7 and VF-X2...?

[Zinjo]

Anyone else noticed that both VF-25 and VF-27 have the same transformation system?

Makes sense since it is the most efficient and versatile transformation sequence to date...

[d3v]

A part of me wonders if the automated fold system aboard the Macross used a form of omni-directional barrier before it folded?

With the new series showing the fold as a portal as opposed to an event, is it not possible that the city on South Ataria island was scooped out by a barrier?

The crew wouldn't know about the omni barrier since the fold system was lost after they re-emerged in normal space. They later constructed one with the remnants of the fold system, which makes me wonder if the the barrier was somehow originally integrated into the system by the PC and only used in extreme emergencies like we saw in M7 and VF-X2...?

Maybe the folds used in Frontier and previous series are different. With the new system, it seems that dragging along extra mass (such as a whole island) is less likely since you move through the "portal" created by the fold.

[Final Vegeta]

Anyone else noticed that both VF-25 and VF-27 have the same transformation system?

It was mentioned somewhere that, since the VF-25 has such a smooth transformation, it would become the basis for further VFs.

A part of me wonders if the automated fold system aboard the Macross used a form of omni-directional barrier before it folded?

In episode 6 if you check the prologue there are specific names such as "Warp Bubble" and "Warp Shield".

FV

[Mr March]

Makes sense since it is the most efficient and versatile transformation sequence to date...

Preach it, brotha! I'm right there with ya

[Master Dex]

Indeed, I love this transformation system, it makes a lot of sense. Although it ends up putting the cockpit of the fighter as the ass of the battroid, .

Hmm I can't remember, but even before SDF-1 was under human control, when it was ASS-1 wasn't it some type of prototype or have a prototype fold system? I thought I saw that somewhere, but maybe it was something else.

[kalvasflam]

I'm a bit mixed on the subject of a sniper based Valk. On the one hand, there is some coolness factor, but really how necessary is it to have a Valk specialized in sniping. I can think of useful situations especially if the Valks end up engaging in land combat, but for aerial combat, I'm not so sure I agree with the overall concept. The main issue is that snipers would typically need camo or environment to blend into. (on a deck of a ship would be good, but then the alternative is to find some convenient asteroid I suppose) I also have to wonder how effective is this Valk in real direct combat, I mean the sniper rifle is not used like a standard gun pod, and one would think if an enemy ever gets too close the sniper Valk gets in trouble, since this would require the Valk to engage in direct combat.

There is also the question about how many sniper types there are, it must be highly specialized unit. It makes you wonder how many Valks the SMS skull squadron actually have, I would imagine at least 12 if we believe in the normal sized squadron. Then the mix would make sense, one command, one ELINT type, one sniper, and then essentially nine grunt type planes. The specialization would be more sensible, but if it's just four planes, the specialization doesn't make any sense.

[Mr March]

A sniper Valkyrie is not actually a problem; it's specialized capabilites is a point in its favor.

Real militaries use Combined Arms that consist of all kinds of vehicles and weapons in a combined force to achieve the most effective combat operations. Mikhail's VF-25G would be less effective at shorter range combat; that's the point, it trades in short range combat for long range superiority. The Valkyries are setup up like armor "fireteams"; the VF-25F fighters skirmish, VF-25G fighters are long-range snipers and VF-25S Full Armor fighters are heavy fire support.

VF-25F = gunman armed with a submachine gun

VF-25G = rifleman armed with a sniper rifle

VF-25S Full Armor = grenadier armed with grenade launcher

[azrael]

Hmm I can't remember, but even before SDF-1 was under human control, when it was ASS-1 wasn't it some type of prototype or have a prototype fold system? I thought I saw that somewhere, but maybe it was something else.

Maybe in Robotech...

In Macross, nothing was special about ASS-1 to the Zentradi. It was special to humans, but to the Zentradi, it was just another target to hunt down. No special folding capabilities, and of course, no magical flowers.

I'm a bit mixed on the subject of a sniper based Valk. On the one hand, there is some coolness factor, but really how necessary is it to have a Valk specialized in sniping. I can think of useful situations especially if the Valks end up engaging in land combat, but for aerial combat, I'm not so sure I agree with the overall concept. The main issue is that snipers would typically need camo or environment to blend into. (on a deck of a ship would be good, but then the alternative is to find some convenient asteroid I suppose) I also have to wonder how effective is this Valk in real direct combat, I mean the sniper rifle is not used like a standard gun pod, and one would think if an enemy ever gets too close the sniper Valk gets in trouble, since this would require the Valk to engage in direct combat.

This is why the term "sharpshooter" or "marksman" is a much better term for Mikhail's role. SDM/DMs (Squad Designated Marksman/Designated Marksman) are usually attached to a squad and serve as support to the rest of the squad. Snipers usually act independently (normally with a spotter) from a concealed position.

[Zinjo]

In episode 6 if you check the prologue there are specific names such as "Warp Bubble" and "Warp Shield".

FV

Well what was the warp bubble or shield?

Auto omni-barrier to protect the ship during folds? I don't recall any ships being destroyed while folding was in progress.

I find a automated barrier a much more plausible argument that fits in with the current production other than the fold in Frontier is a "new" type.

Anyway, a few mental musings....

[junior]

one would think if an enemy ever gets too close the sniper Valk gets in trouble, since this would require the Valk to engage in direct combat.

That's what Ozma and Alto are for. If the fight somehow gets too close to Mikhail, then it's their job to give him enough cover to pull back and redeploy.

And Mikhail does serve a very useful purpose in the squad. Currently he's the only squad member with a gun that can actually hurt a Vajra with a single shot. Clan Clan tried a point blank blast with her cannon and barely cracked the armor.