Macross Frontier Mecha/Technology Thread II *Read 1st Post*

[d3v]

i'm a big fan of the monster and its big guns, and the KM definitely put up a good show in ep7.

i have to wonder though at the logic of portraying the KM as having more firepower than an escort ship (the Dulfim seems to be at least destroyer-class) as is implied when:

- the Dulfim seems to have been defending itself poorly and the KM almost single-handedly bailed them out

- Dulfim crew were asked to brace for the shockwave, implying they themselves don't have any armaments of the KMs caliber

so one has to wonder why escort ships wouldn't pack the same or bigger guns than a KM, and more of them.

could it be that:

- the Dulfim does have big guns but were disabled/destroyed in prolonged combat by the time the KM arrived

- escort ships do pack big guns and use them but don't get much airtime

in ground-based tactical assault scenarios, the KM makes sense. they can project a lot of firepower where the big ships can't get too or perhaps would be overkill. in realworld military, KMs would be the equivalent of a combined artillery and MLRS unit for when the engagement is too far inland for naval bombardment to reach or when the situation is fluid and requires a tactical approach. but in a space battle, i would expect the big ships to have the biggest guns in play.

for that matter, why have cheyenne/tomahawk destroids on deck (in foxholes) and exposing human lives, when one could have battery emplacements operated from below deck under better armor?

i'm not ranting here, just genuinely curious as to the logic of these things in the macross setting.

I think it would be safe to assume that the Dulfilm is pretty heavily damaged at this point and isn't up to full fighting capacity. Meanwhile, Rabbit 1 is also possibly packing guided reaction shells (judging by the fact that they changed trajectory) and reaction missiles for maximum effect.

Dunno about the destroids though, they're possibly meant more as an homage to previous Macross shows.

Edited May 23, 2008 by d3v

[grss1982]

Episode 7 really had me thinking..........

Why did Alto have to use the Super Pack as a decoy for the incoming Vajra missile thingies. I mean it was already established way back in Macross Plus that chaff can be used. Probabaly because those were alien missles, perhaps?

Also, why did the Vajra suddenly loose the ability to throw out those funky/version version of chaff as a defensive measure against the barrage thrown out by Ozma in the VF-25 with Armoured Pack?

Speaking of the Armoured Pack, I'm really amazed at the way it fought in episode 7, I mean it was heavyily loaded so it should'nt be able to outrun Alto in his VF-25 with Super Pack, but it did. What's the deal here?

[Kronnang Dunn]

Also, why did the Vajra suddenly loose the ability to throw out those funky/version version of chaff as a defensive measure against the barrage thrown out by Ozma in the VF-25 with Armoured Pack?

I believe it was discussed already in the Ep 7 thread. The Vajra had spent their "chaffs" during the long battle with Galaxy fleet... so they were still re-generating more when S.M.S. attacked...

[Shun]

also because the missiles were too many, and those that hit the squiddies were coming in at sharp angles such that dropping chaffs (behind) are useless/will not be effective.

[d3v]

Speaking of the Armoured Pack, I'm really amazed at the way it fought in episode 7, I mean it was heavyily loaded so it should'nt be able to outrun Alto in his VF-25 with Super Pack, but it did. What's the deal here?

I believe it as already mentioned somewhere that the packs have enough thrusters to enable a fully armored VF-25 to move like a stripped down one. The rest is simply Ozma's skill.

[Graham]

Plus Ozma told Alto to stay on his tail.

Graham

[azrael]

Why did Alto have to use the Super Pack as a decoy for the incoming Vajra missile thingies. I mean it was already established way back in Macross Plus that chaff can be used. Probabaly because those were alien missles, perhaps?

Lighten his load perhaps? Give those missiles a decent target to hit? Make him a smaller target?

[Phil K]

As for why Alto jettisoned his FAST packs, he might have already expended the fuel and missiles in them, so why not use them as chaff? Other than the fact that they're expensive.

[taksraven]

Not Macross Frontier technology, in fact, not Macross at all, but here it is anyway. I think you will know what its about.

http://www.engadget.com/2008/05/23/yamaha-...main-just-that/

Taksraven

[d3v]

Why did Alto have to use the Super Pack as a decoy for the incoming Vajra missile thingies. I mean it was already established way back in Macross Plus that chaff can be used. Probabaly because those were alien missles, perhaps?

It seems to be tradition of sorts, I think it's been done in other series as well. I haven't watched Zero lately, but I recall Shin dumping the improvised "super pack" they built using QF-2001 Ghosts to avoid some missiles.

[Mr March]

In a discussion on another board I suggested the possibility that the VF-27 cockpit could be either a full holographic environment or a cyberspace like system for the pilot. After watching Grace working within her cyberspace vision in episode 8, I'm more and more convinced Brera Stern is doing the same thing with his VF-27. If his funky purple eyes work in ways similar the Grace's funky purple eyes then he pilots the VF-27 via his virtual reality interface. He may even use conventional controls, but he just sees everything in virtual reality. Any thoughts?

[d3v]

In a discussion on another board I suggested the possibility that the VF-27 cockpit could be either a full holographic environment or a cyberspace like system for the pilot. After watching Grace working within her cyberspace vision in episode 8, I'm more and more convinced Brera Stern is doing the same thing with his VF-27. If his funky purple eyes work in ways similar the Grace's funky purple eyes then he pilots the VF-27 via his virtual reality interface. He may even use conventional controls, but he just sees everything in virtual reality. Any thoughts?

That's definitely an interesting possibility. In fact, I'm gonna add a bit more by asking, is he even working the controls or is it all in his head (I don't working any visible controls in ep. 7)? Could cybernetic implants have made the BDI from the YF-22 a working possibility without the risk of feedback from the system?

Edited May 24, 2008 by d3v

[Heron]

In a discussion on another board I suggested the possibility that the VF-27 cockpit could be either a full holographic environment or a cyberspace like system for the pilot. After watching Grace working within her cyberspace vision in episode 8, I'm more and more convinced Brera Stern is doing the same thing with his VF-27. If his funky purple eyes work in ways similar the Grace's funky purple eyes then he pilots the VF-27 via his virtual reality interface. He may even use conventional controls, but he just sees everything in virtual reality. Any thoughts?

I'm inclined to agree as well. In fact, Grace and Brera VR experience looked identical.

[Mr March]

d3v

I'm not sure how much Brera controls via virtual reality (if that's what it is) but I don't want to leap ahead yet and say for certain that it's all brain/computer driven. If nothing else, the theme of the YF-21's BDI/BDS brainwave control system is being explored again in the VF-27, but it's being done with a different twist (in much the same way as many aspects of Frontier).

Heron

I'm not sure if I'd say they were identical, but the similarities are very hard to ignore. Since the VF-27 is military, Brera's VR setup and his cybernetic eyes (assuming that's what they are) could be more advanced than Grace's setup.

Edited May 24, 2008 by Mr March

[Kronnang Dunn]

In a discussion on another board I suggested the possibility that the VF-27 cockpit could be either a full holographic environment or a cyberspace like system for the pilot. After watching Grace working within her cyberspace vision in episode 8, I'm more and more convinced Brera Stern is doing the same thing with his VF-27. If his funky purple eyes work in ways similar the Grace's funky purple eyes then he pilots the VF-27 via his virtual reality interface. He may even use conventional controls, but he just sees everything in virtual reality. Any thoughts?

I was about to say that...

[Raptor One]

Not Macross Frontier technology, in fact, not Macross at all, but here it is anyway. I think you will know what its about.

http://www.engadget.com/2008/05/23/yamaha-...main-just-that/

Taksraven

Looks like something from "Centurions"...

[azrael]

That's definitely an interesting possibility. In fact, I'm gonna add a bit more by asking, is he even working the controls or is it all in his head (I don't working any visible controls in ep. 7)? Could cybernetic implants have made the BDI from the YF-22 a working possibility without the risk of feedback from the system?

My feeling is that it's not quite a BDI system of olde. I've pondered this with Mr. March and I do get a sense that our VF-27 pilot may have cybernetic implants. And I'm thinking more along the lines of Ghost in the Shell cyber brain-style implants.

Instead of transmitting signals to the brain or interpreting brainwaves (which can be bad as we saw when Guld thought about pushing Isamu's face into the dirt), it might be reading nerve signals. If I move my arm, my brain sends signals throughout my nervous system to contract or extend muscles which move my arm. Thinking about moving my arm becomes separate from the actual act of doing it.

[Final Vegeta]

It seems to be tradition of sorts, I think it's been done in other series as well. I haven't watched Zero lately, but I recall Shin dumping the improvised "super pack" they built using QF-2001 Ghosts to avoid some missiles.

No, that was a plot scene. He discarded all weaponry to prove he had trust.

In a discussion on another board I suggested the possibility that the VF-27 cockpit could be either a full holographic environment or a cyberspace like system for the pilot. After watching Grace working within her cyberspace vision in episode 8, I'm more and more convinced Brera Stern is doing the same thing with his VF-27. If his funky purple eyes work in ways similar the Grace's funky purple eyes then he pilots the VF-27 via his virtual reality interface. He may even use conventional controls, but he just sees everything in virtual reality. Any thoughts?

I think that probably he could even remote control his VF-27 since he has parts of the control interface in his brain.

Instead of transmitting signals to the brain or interpreting brainwaves (which can be bad as we saw when Guld thought about pushing Isamu's face into the dirt), it might be reading nerve signals. If I move my arm, my brain sends signals throughout my nervous system to contract or extend muscles which move my arm. Thinking about moving my arm becomes separate from the actual act of doing it.

Scientist did experiments implanting microchips in the brain of chimpanzees. After a while they learned how to control a third robotic arm like they were born with it. The brain is a fast learner.

FV

[Graham]

We don't know that the VF-25 has any chaff or flares or whatever the 2059 equivalent counter-measures are. It probably does, but we don't know for certain.

Anyway, I think Alto discarded the Super Packs in ep 7, as he realized he didn't have time to shoot down all the Vajra missiles and he probably thought there was a greater chance of decoying away the missiles with the Super Packs rather than chaff.

Just my theory.

Graham

[Heron]

Heron

I'm not sure if I'd say they were identical, but the similarities are very hard to ignore. Since the VF-27 is military, Brera's VR setup and his cybernetic eyes (assuming that's what they are) could be more advanced than Grace's setup.

By identical I meant the green glowy effect. As for the tech level, Grace seems able to wirelessly tap into transmissions and the purple crystal necklace around her neck acts as a projector if she needs some one in real life to see what she is seeing.

Hmm, I wonder if Kawamori will explore any transhumanist themes via the Galaxy fleet?

[Mr March]

azrael

That's a good interpretation. Brera's cybernetics (assuming that what they are) could be a way to go about achieving a similar result to the old BDI/BDS, but through different means (ie, likely more stable and reliable). And if they work via the nervous system that would be a great safeguard against the problems encouterd by Guld in the YF-21, as you say.

Heron

Oh, the background "space" itself you mean; yeah I see that. I also noticed Brera may have a similar device to Grace, but rather than a necklace it appears to be some sort of headset. It's a single piece that rests upon the top of his head and hangs over his forehead.

[d3v]

My feeling is that it's not quite a BDI system of olde. I've pondered this with Mr. March and I do get a sense that our VF-27 pilot may have cybernetic implants. And I'm thinking more along the lines of Ghost in the Shell cyber brain-style implants.

Instead of transmitting signals to the brain or interpreting brainwaves (which can be bad as we saw when Guld thought about pushing Isamu's face into the dirt), it might be reading nerve signals. If I move my arm, my brain sends signals throughout my nervous system to contract or extend muscles which move my arm. Thinking about moving my arm becomes separate from the actual act of doing it.

A bit OT but all this discussion about implants and BDI reminded me of something I read about a new game controller that runs by reading thoughts.

http://gear.ign.com/articles/772/772295p1.html

Although in this case, the system seems to read brainwaves based on certain motions (moving hands, facial expressions, etc.) and not thoughts like the BDI in the YF-21.

[The346L3]

I was looking at the vb-6 konig file on the macross mecha manual and I saw that the konig had a destroid mode.

What would be the use of the destroid mode? It doesnt look like it could use the main guns so Im guessing that maybe it allows for faster movement?

[Mr March]

Same reason for the Battroid mode, for reasons like close quarter combat with other humanoid vehicles. It also doesn't hurt for superior manipulation of terrain and for demolition. Plus, fans want to see that VB-6 squash a big red Vajra up close and personal

[The_WOZ]

I noticed in MacF episode 7, that SMS's König Monster have conventional cannons instead of the rail guns.

Note the 2 expended casings on the Dulfin's hull

[wolfx]

Episode 7 really had me thinking..........

Why did Alto have to use the Super Pack as a decoy for the incoming Vajra missile thingies. I mean it was already established way back in Macross Plus that chaff can be used. Probabaly because those were alien missles, perhaps?

Also, why did the Vajra suddenly loose the ability to throw out those funky/version version of chaff as a defensive measure against the barrage thrown out by Ozma in the VF-25 with Armoured Pack?

Speaking of the Armoured Pack, I'm really amazed at the way it fought in episode 7, I mean it was heavyily loaded so it should'nt be able to outrun Alto in his VF-25 with Super Pack, but it did. What's the deal here?

He was already whining about how "heavy" the armour was. I think he just wanted to jettison the armour for the maneuverability to dodge all that fire rather than use it as "chaff". Speed was definately not what he needed that time.

[kalvasflam]

I hope we end up seeing more of Macross Galaxy as a ship going forward. The design is definitely interesting and not at all like the standard Macross. I would also hope that more of the technology in Galaxy is explained too, especially since they seem to have a head start on a lotof cybernetics, one almost has to wonder whether we might see next generation Ghost type UCAVs and valks with tele-presence capability coming out of Galaxy fleet. ( I know, it's not even established that Brera was actually in the cockpit of the VF-27 in ep 7)

Hopefully we get to see more of the other ships in the Frontier/Galaxy fleets as well as we go along. I did like the variety they had on Mac 7, although some of it seemed pointless.

[grss1982]

Looks like something from "Centurions"...

UHmmmm..........

POWER EXTREME!!!

Ah those were the days. I really liked this cartoon since the main villain (Doc Terror) reminded me a lot of one of the antagonists in SDFM.

ANYWAYS...... did anyone notice that those large lasers on the Ozma's VF-25 w/ Armoured Pack fired in episode 7? I wonder how powerful they are? The way those lasers were designed they seem to be useless in battroid mode.

[kalvasflam]

After watching Luca and his pet Ghosts in action again, I got to thinking, from the look of things, Luca was really a guy running the sensors, I mean it didn't seem like he was doing much of the fighting, may be more of a recon/AWACS role providing data and imagery to the rest of the fleet and Mac quarter.

This then makes me think that he wasn't actually in control of the Ghosts for the most part, well, except may be when he was shouting for "Peter" to dodge. But it seems to me that it is very likely that the Ghosts weren't UCAV in the conventional manner where there were humans running them, but rather run on sophisticated AI designed exclusively to either protect Luca in his role as AWACS or to be a probe for him when the situation is too dangerous.

If that's the case, then it's a bit surprising that the other VF-25s didn't have attendent Ghosts as well. Because after all, if it's just a matter of AI and programming, then it's pretty simple to program some basic parameters into the Ghosts, like stay with 1000 m of primary VF, fire on any unfriendly signatures, fire on any target attack VF, and so forth. One way to look at this is while the remotes weren't directly controlled, they could be programmed to enhance the combat effectiveness of the individual fighters. After all, wouldn't it be nice if each VF had been assigned several Ghosts where the exclusive mission of the Ghosts is to shoot down incoming missiles. This would certainly free up the pilot to concentrate on other matters like attacking other targets instead of worrying about dodging incoming fire.

Another thought is that if the Ghosts can be controlled by a pilot, then it would make a lot of sense to have a backseater whose exclusive mission is to control the remotes. I think there is a thought among the USAF where two seaters would have the guy in the back quarterbacking a small group of UCAVs.

[papabear]

If that's the case, then it's a bit surprising that the other VF-25s didn't have attendent Ghosts as well. Because after all, if it's just a matter of AI and programming, then it's pretty simple to program some basic parameters into the Ghosts, like stay with 1000 m of primary VF, fire on any unfriendly signatures, fire on any target attack VF, and so forth.

Heh, just like in the drones circling around one's plane or spaceship in those scrolling shooter games...

[Graham]

I'm guessing that since the Sharon Apple incident, Ghost A.I.s have been dumbed down some and while they don't require direct human control, they probably act under a fairly limited and ridged set of parameters and are not able to handle sudden changes in the situation that well, without new instructions from their human handler, e.g. Luca having to tell Peter to dodge.

As to why only Luca has Ghosts, I'd imagine, that since the Sharon Apple incident there is probably a certain degree of distrust from human pilots about having a mixed formation of Ghosts and Valks operating together in a combat roll. Luca's Ghosts seemed to be there only in the recon and intelligence gathering role, not to get involved in direct combat.

It could also just be due to SMS only having a limited quantity of Ghosts available, so it makes sense assigning them just to Luca as he is their tech and recon guy.

From what we've seen so far in Frontier of both the NUNS and SMS Ghosts, they seem to be used more for recon use than any other type of role.

Graham

[Macross_Fanboy]

Hey guys, wassup? Been a long time since I made another post, but I have watched this new show and i just draw a lot of comparisons between the old stuff and the new stuff. As for Alto dumping his FAST Packs, I just say it was a little homage to Macross Zero because Shin and Focker did the same, just that they had different reasons. As for those Ghosts, I actually believe that Luca gives them the orders. It's fair to say that the girly boy stays reasonably far away from the frontline during a battle which gives him a lot of time to quickly update mission parameters of those Ghosts. I am curious about this VF-27 also, I'm dling ep 8 right now, but i actually believe that the other girly guy is in there. What I didn't see is if that VF-27 has the power to fold without a booster. As for Ozma being to maneuver so quickly with a full armor pack, it's most likely due to the amount of thrusters on it to account for the added mass unlike with a superpack. As for the Vajra chaff, the asteroid field they fought in on ep 7 didn't seem so jam packed with rocks and couldn't use them effectively. In the first ep the red Vajra took Ozma deep inside the asteroid field in an attempt make him crash into an asteroid. Those are my two cents. See you next Deculture.

[Alastar]

I'm guessing that since the Sharon Apple incident, Ghost A.I.s have been dumbed down some and while they don't require direct human control, they probably act under a fairly limited and ridged set of parameters and are not able to handle sudden changes in the situation that well, without new instructions from their human handler, e.g. Luca having to tell Peter to dodge.

As to why only Luca has Ghosts, I'd imagine, that since the Sharon Apple incident there is probably a certain degree of distrust from human pilots about having a mixed formation of Ghosts and Valks operating together in a combat roll. Luca's Ghosts seemed to be there only in the recon and intelligence gathering role, not to get involved in direct combat.

It could also just be due to SMS only having a limited quantity of Ghosts available, so it makes sense assigning them just to Luca as he is their tech and recon guy.

From what we've seen so far in Frontier of both the NUNS and SMS Ghosts, they seem to be used more for recon use than any other type of role.

Graham

Also He was going into a combat and since he is equipped with Recon equipment he would be first to go after. The Ghost could just be his protection as the rest of SMS where combat and couldnt provide him with cover.

As far as making them Dumber after the Sharon Apple event, i would believe so. That one AI took control over the Earth... Would be kinda bad if she showed up again later on in the series.....VF-25 vs Ghost....would be a nice fight.

[d3v]

Heh, just like in the drones circling around one's plane or spaceship in those scrolling shooter games...

Tsk tsk, silly Luca, if he had only shot down 4 red Vajra and grabbed the powerups, he's be able to get his Ghost back.

Edited May 26, 2008 by d3v

[kensei]

Tsk tsk, silly Luca, if he had only shot down 4 red Vajra and grabbed the powerups, he's be able to get his Ghost back.

Raiden Fighters baby