Macross Frontier Mecha/Technology Thread II *Read 1st Post*

[Master Dex]

I would help with the info on the VF-25 transformation stuff because I know how it works exactly but I think everyone else has given you enough information for you to have a good idea. Also if I start talking about it it will be a very long post and from experience most people don't read my long posts either because I am more boring than I believe or no one wants to hear me in geeky tech mode, lol.

[hobbes221]

I would help with the info on the VF-25 transformation stuff because I know how it works exactly but I think everyone else has given you enough information for you to have a good idea. Also if I start talking about it it will be a very long post and from experience most people don't read my long posts either because I am more boring than I believe or no one wants to hear me in geeky tech mode, lol.

Aw, come on this is the tech thread I love the long posts. And am I the only one who misses the way that the VF-0/1s kept the head stored on the ventral side of the VFs in fighter mode. I always thought that having that as a turret was just cool, I know why it isn't done anymore but still like it.

[hobbes221]

A thought came to me about how the fold system works in Frontier as to all other macross series I know that something like this was talked about before so I hope that I'm not restating what someone has said already. (and sorry if I do, too lazy to hunt for the topic) Anyways my thought is that the fold system that jumps the ship may not be as efficient as the ones seen in Frontier. It may have been found that opening a gateway ahead of the ship has more benefits than the first systems. The only way that I can think to explain this would be to say that you could just take a running start at locked door and kick it down or you could stop and take the time to unlock and open the door then just walk right through. Both work but which one would you want to do. Kind of simple I know.

[Mr March]

Aw, come on this is the tech thread I love the long posts. And am I the only one who misses the way that the VF-0/1s kept the head stored on the ventral side of the VFs in fighter mode. I always thought that having that as a turret was just cool, I know why it isn't done anymore but still like it.

Honestly, I prefer the lack of a ventral head turret. Granted, the VF-1A was pretty good and as unobtrusive as Kawamori could design it at the time, but I still think the VF-1 head turret (particularly the D, J and S) was an eye sore. I know that's heresy to say about our beloved VF-1 Valkyrie, but the ventral head turret always bothered me. I feel it disturbs the aerodynamic aesthetic.

Now functionally, it was damn cool; no argument from me on that. Especially the way the head turret could drop or turn even in Fighter/GERWALK modes. When Hikaru used the head turret to rescue of Misa from the Grand Cannon in SDF Macross it was brilliant and Max's killer head turret shot on Milia's Q-Rau in DYRL was even better; genius, one might say

But I have to say I prefer the rear mounted head turrets on the VF-17 Nightmare, the YF-19/VF-19 Excalibur, the YF-21/22 Sturmvogel II and the VF-25 Messiah. Isamu's motion activated shot with the YF-19's rear head turrent on Guld's YF-21 was killer and when Alto opened up with his VF-25's rear head turret, blasting away at Brera in the VF-27, it was fan-gasm at it's finest

Of course, it helps that the turrets in the new valkyries are much more seamless and the ventral belly of most modern valkyries are nice and smooth they way they should be.

Edited July 27, 2008 by Mr March

[Master Dex]

Aw, come on this is the tech thread I love the long posts. And am I the only one who misses the way that the VF-0/1s kept the head stored on the ventral side of the VFs in fighter mode. I always thought that having that as a turret was just cool, I know why it isn't done anymore but still like it.

It is tempting believe me. Nice to know someone enjoys my long techy posts. I also do it with sciencey posts.

I have nothing against the ventral head storing but having them on the top is good too. However the only problem I've seen with it is the head lasers seem to be fixed backwards a lot when the head it stored in fighter and gerwalk mode. If the laser turrets can move forward and backward then I'd like it more.

[hobbes221]

Yeah March and Master Dex, I'm with you guys on all that, the only thing that tips it in favor of the turret is that it is more of an offensive weapon system as to the defensive nature of the dorsal mounted guns.

Edited July 27, 2008 by hobbes221

[Kronnang Dunn]

Honestly, I prefer the lack of a ventral head turret.

I actually think that the placement has a lot to do with function.

In later valkyries it seems to work just as a last ditch defensive gun against other fighters (that's why we don't see it used that much... Alto vs Brera in Episode 13 could be an exception).

In the VF-0 and the original valkyrie it was more of a fighter-fighter/air-ground attack weapon... (which Roy used with great effectiveness in the original series... perhaps due to SW I Zentradi fighter/mecha being poorly armored).

Edited July 27, 2008 by Kronnang Dunn

[hobbes221]

I actually think that the placement has a lot to do with function.

In later valkyries it seems to work just as a last ditch defensive gun against other fighters (that's why we don't see it used that much... Alto vs Brera in Episode 13 could be an exception).

In the VF-0 and the original valkyrie it was more of a fighter-fighter/air-ground attack weapon... (which Roy used with great effectiveness in the original series... perhaps due to SW I Zentradi fighter/mecha being poorly armored).

I agree that function is part of it but I think that it may have more to do with making the transformation system a little less complicated in that the head unit does not have to be moved from the ventral side all the way to top of the airframe. It also allows for the improved waist joint system.

Edited July 27, 2008 by hobbes221

[Mr March]

If head cannons on the later valkyries were of no danger to another valkyrie, there'd be no reason to bother avoiding them, especially if one loses a superior tactical position by evading. There'd also be no reason to build head cannons if they served no role that the other weapons couldn't accomplish (the YF-21 would be the perfect case in point, given the manner in which the weapons are mounted). Nevertheless, Guld obviously felt his YF-21 threatened by Isamu's rear cannons as did Brera's VF-27 in the line of fire from Alto's VF-25, so they are obviously lethal weapons.

The head cannons have been established as anti-mecha weapons since the original series and there's no reason to assume they have become any less. There's nothing to say SWI-era mecha were less/more heavily armored than any other era. In fact, given the Zentradi mecha are 30-40 tons compared to the valkyries that sit between 8-14 tons, the Zentradi mecha were probably the heaviest armored mecha of all Macross until Frontier introduced the Vajra (with the possible exception of the VB-6 Konig or the FBz-99 Saubergeran).

Discussing rear versus front facing head cannons, I see very little disadvantage or functional difference for the newer valkyries. Nearly all the valkyries with rear-facing head cannons also have additional forward-facing guns that were not built for the VF-1 Valkyrie/VF-0 Phoenix fighters. Exceptions are the VF-5000 Star Mirage and the VF-11 Thunderbolt, both of which were fighters designed with large micro-missile complements.

- The VF-4 has two big beam guns on the outboard engines.

- The VF-17 Nightmare has the forward mounted laser cannons on either side of the cockpit;

- The YF-19/VF-19 Excalibur has converging energy beam guns in the wing roots;

- The YF-21/VF-22 Sturmvogel II has both rear/forward beam guns to the outside of each nacelle;

- The VF-171 has the same Nightmare style guns outside the cockpit.

- The VF-25 has two forward beam guns on either side of the main intakes.

Only real disadvantage I can see is a newer valkyrie would have to roll 90 degrees in flight to use the dorsal-mounted head cannon to mimic the maneuver Max did with his VF-1S head cannon in DYRL. That's not much of a concern to my mind.

[hobbes221]

I totally agree with you Mr March, I was just going on a 'how cool was that' tangent. It was never my intention to say that later VFs were or are lacking in the firepower department. I do like wing guns on 25, but for some reason the wing guns on the 19 just never have clicked with me. I guess that it has something to do with the fact that with the wings swinging into the wing root where the guns are at and that the wings themselves are mounted on that one single mount just seems to me that maybe a little too much is going on in that wing. And it would be just a little bit of overkill to have a VF that had a gun pod, forward firing head guns and wing root guns, but then that too would look damn cool all going at once.

[Mr March]

...seems to me that maybe a little too much is going on in that wing.

LOL! Perhaps more going on inside that wing than we know. Oh the scandal! News at 11:00

Seriously, I understand. My post was mainly to voice my own thoughts, not really to make a point, except where I read some odd interpretations of the Valkyries/Macross universe.

I really like it when the Valkyries fire all weapons. Just looks so damn lethal. I noticed an homage to Hikaru's death run on Bodolzaa in episode 14 of Frontier when Alto unleashed "full firepower" on the Vajra Queen. Loves my guns

[hobbes221]

I noticed an homage to Hikaru's death run on Bodolzaa in episode 14 of Frontier when Alto unleashed "full firepower" on the Vajra Queen. Loves my guns

Yeah I saw that too, btw loved that scene in DYRL? at the end, even with everything else he had, he STILL flipped the head lasers down and that look on his face, sweet!

Edited July 28, 2008 by hobbes221

[Sumdumgai]

The headlaser on the VF-0 didn't seem to be very effective on the SV-51 when Shin shot Nora's SV-51 multiple times while trying to fight her off while protecting the APHOS head. Looked like it didn't have any effect at all.

The headlasers on the VF-1 seemed effective enough. Mr. March summed it up well in why it seems that the headlasers are effective as anti-mecha on later model valkyries.

[hobbes221]

The headlaser on the VF-0 didn't seem to be very effective on the SV-51 when Shin shot Nora's SV-51 multiple times while trying to fight her off while protecting the APHOS head. Looked like it didn't have any effect at all.

You could chalk that up to two facts. - One it could be a first gen energy weapon and have been underpowered. (the UN might not have planed to go up against an anti-UN aircraft with energy converting armor) And two, the VF-0 did not have the reaction engines, only custom tuned turbofans. So it may have not had too much extra power to feed the laser depending on how much power was going to the energy converting armor system.

[Mr March]

If the SV-51 is actually taking direct hits from the VF-0D, it's the weakest Macross laser in existence. If those aren't light flashes from near misses and are instead actual hits, the laser impacted right on the SV-51 canopy glass and didn't go through. If I had to go with an in-universe explanation, I'd agree with hobbes that it is likely the fault of the VF-0 being powered by conventional engines.

But I wouldn't; I'd call that scene 100% creative license and poor creativity at that. Just the scene before Shin's VF-0 is shown blasting through the main sensor on the Octos. The head lasers on Roy's VF-0S are shown obliterating an entire Octos in the Macross Zero series! Worse still, the energy converting armor of the pre-thermonuclear reaction engine Valkyries used in M0 is described as hard as a tank. So the VF-0 head laser couldn't even take out armor as hard as a tank, yet it took out an Octos. Somehow the Octos doesn't come across to me as lightly armored as a Humvee

Shin didn't do jack to the SV-51 because the script demanded it. When it does, Roy's blowing up Octos' in Zero, Regulds in SDF Macross and Max is blowing holes in Milia's DYRL Q-Rau. And if Guld and Brera had as much to worry from the head lasers as Nora's glass canopy, they would have owned Isamu and Alto respectively

[hobbes221]

Once again Mr March I'm with you on the creative license in that scene and the later one with Roy. And just to try and get this thread back to Frontier (I know it was me who started this in the first place) I would be open to hearing anyone's ideas on what they think about the head guns and the wing root guns on the 25. I think that they are the same model of weapon, from the little that I have seen they look to do the same amount of damage and the fire looks the same. And it would be smart to have four of the same gun as to having two different types of guns that appear to do the same thing. But hey its all tech!

-edit- On a side note I am still waiting to see the nacelle guns on the 27 get some screen time.

Edited July 28, 2008 by hobbes221

[Chief Guld Goa Bowman]

Just like a fine wine, head lasers get better with age.

[David Hingtgen]

Quick theory:

Ozma's valk has never/rarely been seen without armor yet because we're not supposed to know about the giant skull marking on the back. I mean, if you haven't been scouring Macross forums, you probably wouldn't know. It's supposed to be an "oh, cool" surprise at some point.

[WaveMotionGun]

Hahahaha.....OMG - you guys are F***ING awesome!

I'm finally going through the reply's, and the included imagery! Thanks to you guys (Hobbes221, Final Vegeta and Sulendil Ang) for the great pics! Why is it that I couldn't find these anywhere?

I think I've got a good handle on how this ought to look - now, for the actual doing....

I'll posts updates as i work through this thing - and I'm sure I'll have more questions as I progress....

But thanks for all the help so far!

[Kronnang Dunn]

The head cannons have been established as anti-mecha weapons since the original series and there's no reason to assume they have become any less.

Indeed. I believe beam weaponry in the Valkyries is even more effective in the new models too. But the position of the head lasers in the dorsal area clearly indicates more of a dog-fighting/defensive role than an attack/intercepting one in fighter mode like the old valkyries had.

There's nothing to say SWI-era mecha were less/more heavily armored than any other era. In fact, given the Zentradi mecha are 30-40 tons compared to the valkyries that sit between 8-14 tons, the Zentradi mecha were probably the heaviest armored mecha of all Macross until Frontier introduced the Vajra (with the possible exception of the VB-6 Konig or the FBz-99 Saubergeran).

Err... Actually the weight of the Esbeliben Regult (37 tons) is due to its bigger size (check the size comparison pic from Nue) and just by inspecting its official line-art by Kiyomi Tanaka most of its mass seems to be distributed in the weapons, avionics, electronics, very big and long robotic legs and their mechanisms, reactor and mecha thrusters...

Most of its cockpit seems to be just empty space inside a bubble with the pilot sitting in the reactor furnace... I really can't see any re-inforced shielding on it (like, say... the multiple panels on the Valkyrie in battroid mode...). It just makes sense since Zentradi are very very big so their mecha cockpit design has to have a bigger "space to armor" ratio compared to that of the valkyries.

From a tactical point of view is logical to assume that's the reason why the Zentradi Regult pilots are issued Heavier Body Armor than, say... the Zentradi Field Soldiers who actually have Light Armor and are supposedly more exposed and do not have any Regult mecha "armor protection"...

So basically the Regult is just a heavy armored Zentradi in a thin metallic bubble with lots of energy weapons (6), 2 huge multi-directional thrusters and 2 very big big legs... (oh, and a reactor as pilot chair to power all that up...).

Edited July 28, 2008 by Kronnang Dunn

[RedWolf]

I assume that the reason Regults aren't used anymore is that they are flying death traps.

That's why we see NUNS Zentradi use Quadraluun-Reas which seems to me a mass production NUNS power suit.

Emilia has her own custom Quadraluun and if Pedro's reaction is to be believed Quadraluuns are the power suit mainstay of the UN Spacy Zentradi.

[d3v]

Discussing rear versus front facing head cannons, I see very little disadvantage or functional difference for the newer valkyries. Nearly all the valkyries with rear-facing head cannons also have additional forward-facing guns that were not built for the VF-1 Valkyrie/VF-0 Phoenix fighters. Exceptions are the VF-5000 Star Mirage and the VF-11 Thunderbolt, both of which were fighters designed with large micro-missile complements.

- The VF-4 has two big beam guns on the outboard engines.

- The VF-17 Nightmare has the forward mounted laser cannons on either side of the cockpit;

- The YF-19/VF-19 Excalibur has converging energy beam guns in the wing roots;

- The YF-21/VF-22 Sturmvogel II has both rear/forward beam guns to the outside of each nacelle;

- The VF-171 has the same Nightmare style guns outside the cockpit.

- The VF-25 has two forward beam guns on either side of the main intakes.

Let me add absolutely nothing useful to the conversation by mentioning that the VF-17 also has two medium bore laser beam guns mounted dorsally on its "elbows," something that the VF-171 seems to not have.

Edited July 28, 2008 by d3v

[Spitze]

- The VF-25 has two forward beam guns on either side of the main intakes.

Not really. If you consider the dogfight between Alto and Brera then re-reference again to Alto using lasers to get into the Vajira battleship, then you can notice better that the VF-25F's head lasers can swing 180 degrees to fire forward while in fighter mode.

[sketchley]

Not really. If you consider the dogfight between Alto and Brera then re-reference again to Alto using lasers to get into the Vajira battleship, then you can notice better that the VF-25F's head lasers can swing 180 degrees to fire forward while in fighter mode.

I take it you haven't seen the line art for the VF-25, and the translation of them?

[Sulendil Ang]

when Alto opened up with his VF-25's rear head turret, blasting away at Brera in the VF-27, it was fan-gasm at it's finest

Can anyone reminds me when that happens?

[Mr March]

Indeed. I believe beam weaponry in the Valkyries is even more effective in the new models too. But the position of the head lasers in the dorsal area clearly indicates more of a dog-fighting/defensive role than an attack/intercepting one in fighter mode like the old valkyries had.

That's probably why they have wing root/intake/hip guns, as I said.

The Reguld is roughly one-quarter taller than a Valkyrie (consists largely of very thin legs) yet height is supposed to explain why it weighs over three times as much? At the same time the Reguld is supposedly lightly armored yet weighs 37 tons? Doesn't make sense to me.

Regardless, this is driving off topic and we're gonna get told. Make a new thread if you want.

[hobbes221]

Can anyone reminds me when that happens?

It was at the end of episode 13, here's a pic.

I will say this about Frontier, after episode 13 and the way that you can see the guns tracking the 27 in a side to side motion helps me to see that the dorsal guns are more useful than I thought before. I was under the idea that they could only fire straight behind the VF due to the fact that they are listed as being fixed guns on the dorsal side in fighter/gerwalk modes. To me if they can move then they are not 'fixed guns', the wing root gun are fixed. Anyone else with me on this?

Edited July 28, 2008 by hobbes221

[Sulendil Ang]

Thanks for the info, hobbes!

As a reminder, I have created a topic for further discussion of the "laser" technology. Any posts regarding that topic should go to that topic instead of current one, to avoid being off topic.

http://macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?showtopic=27011

[badboy00z]

It has always bugged me that the head lasers didn't have barrels. It's like they're just rod looking things.

[RedWolf]

Just watched the Yakh Deculture version when I saw the New Macross Class Aircraft Carrier on M-Galaxy... I was like... ARRRGGH! Where the heck did they put the Macross in there?!

[Master Dex]

Just watched the Yakh Deculture version when I saw the New Macross Class Aircraft Carrier on M-Galaxy... I was like... ARRRGGH! Where the heck did they put the Macross in there?!

So it DOES have a NMC carrier!? Pics if you can please.

[RedWolf]

So it DOES have a NMC carrier!? Pics if you can please.

In the prologue of M-Frontier and M-Galaxy's route both of them have New Macross Class Aircraft Carrier designation.

Edited July 29, 2008 by RedWolf

[info600]

In the prologue of M-Frontier and M-Galaxy's route both of them have New Macross Class Aircraft Carrier designation.

looks like another "cost saver" based laziness to me, cause we have NEVER seen the NMC for Galaxy yet

edit:...at least, I haven't

Edited July 29, 2008 by info600

[azrael]

looks like another "cost saver" based laziness to me, cause we have NEVER seen the NMC for Galaxy yet

What those screenshots should say is:

"If you can read this, you're looking too hard."

[Master Dex]

Indeed, I misunderstood. I always knew that opening graphic there listed Galaxy as an NMC. What I thought he meant was there was some new image of Galaxy showing an NMC carrier attached to it as some have theorized there might be. However it seems nothing here is really new.

Edited July 29, 2008 by Master Dex