Macross Frontier Mecha/Technology Thread II *Read 1st Post*

[badboy00z]

The VF-1 could reach space, it's just that it would take a while as compared to blasting off with a booster.

If time were not a factor, it could easily reach the outer atmosphere and beyond, it would just take a while, since it's fuel (air) is in abundant supply. In space it would have range limitations as it needs to carry its own propellant gas...

Love the SD FA VF-25. Lol.

[Zinjo]

Love the SD FA VF-25. Lol.

Found it on the Animesuki forums and just had to have it!

I luv SD Valks!

[Shaka_Z]

The VF-1 could reach space, it's just that it would take a while as compared to blasting off with a booster.

If time were not a factor, it could easily reach the outer atmosphere and beyond, it would just take a while, since it's fuel (air) is in abundant supply. In space it would have range limitations as it needs to carry its own propellant gas...

sorry... thought I made it clear that the VF-1 was able to reach space on it's own. I seriously doubt that it could reach escape velocity however without completely exhausting its' on board propellant - hence the need for boosters. as for how long it would take, I cant imagine that it would take more than 20 minutes to reach orbit assuming a constant 1g burn, which is well within even the VF-1's capabilities... takeoff from a runway, go vertical until you have to switch over from airbreathing to onboard propellant (that way you should be able to keep within the VF-1's atmospheric speed limits during the initial climb to suborbital altitude) and do a traditional ballistic arc from there. the main limitation is the amount of onboard propellant the VF carries. with all the stuff a valk needs to be combat capable, there just isnt much space for propellant.

Over the years the average thrust of successive generations of fusion turbines hasn't gone up all that much, averaging anywhere between 30 thousand and 50 thousand lbs of thrust. it seems that most of the development work was in pushing the Isp envelope, which makes sense - after all the holy grail is to develop the valk into a true starfighter type combatant. all thats needed now is a built in fold booster.

[d3v]

Well, technically, reaching space != reaching orbit. All the VF-1 has to do to reach space is pass the Kármán line (100 km) up in the thermosphere as accepted by the FAI. The only question is whether the VF-1's wings can keep generating lift at that altitude - the highest given altitude listed at the Compendium is 30,000+ meters (when giving the Valks top speed), but it doesn't really list a maximum atmospheric service ceiling.

Edited June 24, 2008 by d3v

[Shaka_Z]

Well, technically, reaching space != reaching orbit. All the VF-1 has to do to reach space is pass the Kármán line (100 km) up in the thermosphere as accepted by the FAI. The only question is whether the VF-1's wings can keep generating lift at that altitude - the highest given altitude listed at the Compendium is 30,000+ meters (when giving the Valks top speed), but it doesn't really list a maximum atmospheric service ceiling.

hmmm... I dont think even overtech wings can pull that feat off. reaching orbital altitude is one thing (and is in reality fairly easy)- establishinga stable orbit or escape trajectory is another thing entirely. Burt Rutan's spaceship one can do the former... it cannot do the latter. <sigh> if only we knew with some accuracy what the Isp of the VF-1's engines is, we could calculate its maximum delta v and this would be a done deal. every other necessary specification is well known or can be reasonably esitimated.

[d3v]

hmmm... I dont think even overtech wings can pull that feat off. reaching orbital altitude is one thing (and is in reality fairly easy)- establishinga stable orbit or escape trajectory is another thing entirely. Burt Rutan's spaceship one can do the former... it cannot do the latter. <sigh> if only we knew with some accuracy what the Isp of the VF-1's engines is, we could calculate its maximum delta v and this would be a done deal. every other necessary specification is well known or can be reasonably esitimated.

Well as long as the VF-1 can break the Kármán line, then it can be considered to have reached space and it's pilot would have earned his/her astronaut wings. I mean, X-15s were doing it decade, so what's to stop an overtech laden fighter with the latest thermonuclear engines from doing the same? Just don't ask the pilot to do spacewalks or anything like that.

[Alastar]

Well as long as the VF-1 can break the Kármán line, then it can be considered to have reached space and it's pilot would have earned his/her astronaut wings. I mean, X-15s were doing it decade, so what's to stop an overtech laden fighter with the latest thermonuclear engines from doing the same? Just don't ask the pilot to do spacewalks or anything like that.

Raw power. Dont get me wrong the Thermonuclear engines are top of the line. But even in Macross we still see solid rocket boosters that help give extra thrust in situations when its called for. I think that the newer Generations of VFs (Vf-11 and up) use a special type of after burner to help give extra thrust to reach escape V. If you think about the F-22 it has super cruse...cool but we dont kno what its maximum speed is with its afterburner and its new advanced super cruse engines. I think the same applies to this whole VF-1 reaching escape v out of a atmosphere without assistance. and also reaching orbit dosnt mean u break out of the planets gravity well....sadly u will just get pulled back into the planet unless ur carrier is out there waiting for you.

[Major Focker]

and also reaching orbit dosnt mean u break out of the planets gravity well....sadly u will just get pulled back into the planet unless ur carrier is out there waiting for you.

you don't need to bust out of the gravity well to remain in space. you just need to be in an orbital trajectory.

[Mr March]

The VF-1 did have "Overboost" which basically doubled the 11,500 kg engines to 23,000 kg. If the later Valkyries are also capable of Overboost, that would mean quite a difference.

As for Isp, isn't that merely an indication of engine efficiency? The correlations between efficiency ratings via Isp and the actual thrust generated are not the same as I understand it. I remember another member here explained it to me before (was that you JBO?), specifically during a discussion of the Ion Engine as it was presented in many science fiction shows. You can have a very high and efficient change in momentum, but that doesn't necessarily correspond to a high thrust. Especially in fighter craft, you're much more interested in the greatest amount of thrust attainted in the least amount of time.

Couldn't one technically calculate the Isp going backwards from what we know? Several of the Valkyries have official numbers for speeds above above 30,000m, like the YF-19 and YF-21. If the YF-19 velocity is 8,100 m/s and the YF-19 weight is known (or a close approximation of it), couldn't one work backwards from there? Or is more information required than what exists for the Valkyries?

Edited June 24, 2008 by Mr March

[Garou Kuroryuu]

Maybe I'm wrong, but IIRC, the YF-19 was the first valkyrie to actually reach orbital altitude without assistance. The VF-1 needed boosters to achieve an altitude where its expecting orbiting ship was.

So, we may not have official stats, but what we've seen in the series seem to indicate that:

1) The VF-1 wasn't able to reach orbital altitude by itself.

2) The YF-19 was able to do so, maybe the first, and perhaps most following valkyries could as well (thou I somehow doubt the VF-17 could, if it was a later development).

[Shaka_Z]

The VF-1 did have "Overboost" which basically doubled the 11,500 kg engines to 23,000 kg. If the later Valkyries are also capable of Overboost, that would mean quite a difference.

As for Isp, isn't that merely an indication of engine efficiency? The correlations between efficiency ratings via Isp and the actual thrust generated are not the same as I understand it. I remember another member here explained it to me before (was that you JBO?), specifically during a discussion of the Ion Engine as it was presented in many science fiction shows. You can have a very high and efficient change in momentum, but that doesn't necessarily correspond to a high thrust. Especially in fighter craft, you're much more interested in the greatest amount of thrust attainted in the least amount of time.

Couldn't one technically calculate the Isp going backwards from what we know? Several of the Valkyries have official numbers for speeds above above 30,000m, like the YF-19 and YF-21. If the YF-19 velocity is 8,100 m/s and the YF-19 weight is known (or a close approximation of it), couldn't one work backwards from there? Or is more information required than what exists for the Valkyries?

unfortunately the relationship between Isp, attainable thrust levels and a vehicle's maximum attainable velocity is not that easily quantified. Isp is both a measure of the effective velocity of the propellant as it leaves the engine nozzle, as well as the absolute temperature of the gas/plasma that it consists of... Mass Flow Rate at a given velocity determines thrust. temperature s the primary limiting factor in how much usable thrust an engine/motor can generate, as it is an indicator of how much energy needs to be generated for a given mass flow at the desired exhaust velocity. also, the very materials the engine is made of are limited in how much energy they can tolerate absorbing from the propellant, thus placing an absolute upper limit on mass flow through the engine for a given Isp level, which places a limt on available thrust.

The same rules apply to an ion drive (which is actually a motor, as it requires an external source of power unlike a macross fusion turbine which is an engine that produces both thrust and energy). Ion drives are easily capable of Isp values in excess of 30kiloseconds (using heavy metals like mercury no less!!!), but are limited in thrust by 2 things - the current total lack of low-mass/low volume power generators and the extremely low mass flow rates the motor materials can tolerate... even at the currently acheivable thrust levels the active parts of the motor will gradually erode away over time.

Overtech apparently solves both the power and materials issues to such an extent that I don't think that valks really ever need to operate their engines at anything less than maximum design Isp while using onboard propellant. It is when they are in airbreathing mode where they would have to operate at lower values, as atmospheric composition and density could cause unforseen reactions with engine materials if the air was converted to plasma. besides, it isnt as if they are in any danger of running out of propellant when airbreathing.

It might be possible actually to determine with some degree of accuracy the Isp of the fighters in Frontier, thanks to the colors of the visible exhaust trails I mentioned earlier. But we would have to know exactly what valks use as propellant when in space.

Edited June 24, 2008 by Shaka_Z

[azrael]

Bringing the talk here from the news thread.

Looks like you could mount something on those wing roots (top left picture).

[Zinjo]

Bringing the talk here from the news thread.

Looks like you could mount something on those wing roots (top left picture).

It could be the mounting points for the FAST Packs or possibly pylons for additional missile ordinance...

It also appears the that knee hinge and leg brackets are on the inside of the engine nacelle giving greater access to engine repair crews on the outside.

Edited June 24, 2008 by Zinjo

[Final Vegeta]

I don't know how to navigate to sign up. Can you post the 2nd one on here?

Yeah. Sorry if I was lazy, but I was in a hurry.

FV

[Fade Rathnik]

After looking at the line art for the leg I am starting to doubt the the VF-25 has any internal missiles. Looks like there is no room for the internal mag for the missiles.

[Alastar]

After looking at the line art for the leg I am starting to doubt the the VF-25 has any internal missiles. Looks like there is no room for the internal mag for the missiles.

No look again. The launcher is mounted right outside the engine. But i doubt that there is a large number carried on board.

[azrael]

No look again. The launcher is mounted right outside the engine.

What launcher? All I see is engine and the and the panel that swings open.

[badboy00z]

Yeah. Sorry if I was lazy, but I was in a hurry.

FV

Thanks dude.

[badboy00z]

Also with the way the 25 transforms, the pilot is really vulnerable if it was attacked from below or from the back. The only thing that protects the cockpit is the rear fuselage.

[Zinjo]

What launcher? All I see is engine and the and the panel that swings open.

Agreed.

There is the engine access panel on the outside and the leg beam and knee hinge on the inside. No internal misslie bays.

However with the second set of line art it shows the hip lasers quite clearly. They sit just above the air intakes under the (what becomes) the chest plate section.

Together the line art makes a lot of sense, apart, not so much...

Edited June 24, 2008 by Zinjo

[Final Vegeta]

Also with the way the 25 transforms, the pilot is really vulnerable if it was attacked from below or from the back. The only thing that protects the cockpit is the rear fuselage.

There is no position that is really unhittable by all sides in a human shaped mecha. Keep in mind that the front side is the one that must have the most protection because it faces the enemy, and the VF-25 is good enough in this department.

FV

[Mr March]

I don't see any lower leg/rear engine missile launchers. The outer leg panel is clearly without any machinery for a launcher and the interior shows no missile racks and no missiles.

Regarding the VF-25 cockpit in Battroid, I think that cutaway diagram is meant to show the dorsal fuselage flush positioned off the canopy. It's probably set out a little so that we can see the cockpit, so we know where it is, hence the reason for the cutaway diagram. Looking at the other page of line art from Hobby Japan magazine, there's a curved recess on the inside section of the dorsal fuselage, corresponding to the place where the cockpit would sit in Battroid mode. Most likely the fuselage sits flush upon the canopy when in Battroid. I'm sure that solid fuselage provides as much protection as any other solid body panel on the VF-25.

[badboy00z]

There is no position that is really unhittable by all sides in a human shaped mecha. Keep in mind that the front side is the one that must have the most protection because it faces the enemy, and the VF-25 is good enough in this department.

FV

But VF do get hit in the back as well and if you look at the line art, the cockpit is left unprotected from the bottom and the rear fuselage is the only thing that covers the cockpit.

[azrael]

Regarding the VF-25 cockpit in Battroid, I think that cutaway diagram is meant to show the dorsal fuselage flush positioned off the canopy. It's probably set out a little so that we can see the cockpit, so we know where it is, hence the reason for the cutaway diagram. Looking at the other page of line art from Hobby Japan magazine, there's a curved recess on the inside section of the dorsal fuselage, corresponding to the place where the cockpit would sit in Battroid mode. Most likely the fuselage sits flush upon the canopy when in Battroid. I'm sure that solid fuselage provides as much protection as any other solid body panel on the VF-25.

It's a fanart drawing so I won't put at much weight on it. But it does make one wonder, the cockpit ends up in the lower back where previous generations, the cockpit ended up in the chest or the upper back area. I wonder how much protection is back there...

[Mr March]

True. We've actually had discussions before about the most protected cockpit (was it here on MW? Memory problems ). But overall, I'm not sure it really matters. Valkyries are defended by energy converting armor, so it's not so much the thickness of the armor as it is the material that composes a specific spot on the hull and the amount of power pumped into it. The Battroid shields are just another part of the hull when looking at them, but they could be composed of either a stronger material or have a disproportionate amount of energy fed into them via the ECA system. By the same logic, the cockpits could be the most "heavily armored" sections of a Valkyrie based on either power or material composition and the actual thickness of the hull sections might have nothing to do with it at all.

[Master Dex]

Going on the talk about the cockpit in Battroid mode, I will point out the the lower fuselage piece in addition to the ECA does a decent job of protecting the cockpit as seen in ep.7 when a yellow Vajra gives him a full power shot right in the back of his battroid and save for vaporizing what was left of his already damaged wings the back piece was still intact and covering the cockpit which we see a few seconds later looks fine and not cracked or anything (until Alto ejects and the whole fighter blows up but that is irrelevant).

I've also always wondered if cockpit canopies in Macross still use traditional glass or some type of strengthened plastic or what not. I believe I've seen instances of a cockpit canopy being shattered although I can't think of one off the top of my head (I don't count Gilliam's fighter in ep.1 and 2 since he ejected and I think that blew off part of the canopy as a standard feature and that is why Alto was later flying it sans canopy piece). Something I thought about is whether or not the idea of transparent metals ever came to mind for use as such canopies and whether or not they have been developed in the Macross universe yet or at all. In today's technology transparent metals are still just an idea but one worth a lot of merit. It is hard enough making glass that can withstand the vacuum of space, but one as big as the cockpit canopies we see would have to be some really think glass. If it is some type of strengthened plastic then that might be different though. However if they have developed transparent metals then the canopy could be metal for all we know, just transparent. I have my doubts though that this has actually been done in the Macross universe though, but it makes sense.

[Beltane70]

Hikaru's canopy shattered while he was rescuing Misa in Alaska Base.

[Master Dex]

Well that proves it was glass or weak plastic in the VF-1. Anyone know if this seems to hold true for all Valks or could they be using something stronger?

[Zinjo]

Well that proves it was glass or weak plastic in the VF-1. Anyone know if this seems to hold true for all Valks or could they be using something stronger?

I'd speculate it would be a transparent aluminum (aka aluminum oxynitride - ALON) material giving the pilot maximum protection during flight and re-entry. It isn't indestructible, but certainly stronger and lighter weight than plastic or glass.

[Master Dex]

I'd speculate it would be a transparent aluminum (aka aluminum oxynitride - ALON) material giving the pilot maximum protection during flight and re-entry. It isn't indestructible, but certainly stronger and lighter weight than plastic or glass.

I was using transparent metals as a generic term, but I was thinking transparent aluminum as well actually. I never would assume they had an indestructible cockpit canopy though, everything has its limits. Aye Scotty would be proud.

[Zinjo]

Aye Scotty would be proud.

One of the best examples of that franchise using real science in a production in the pre-Berman days.

[Master Dex]

One of the best examples of that franchise using real science in a production in the pre-Berman days.

Yeah, that one is my 2nd favorite of the movies. However I don't think Berman did bad, I like all Trek. While true a lot of the science in the Berman days is questionable, I like to think of it as science beyond what we understand today, as it is the future. We are likely to make discoveries in the future that change a lot of the ways we think about things now. In any case though you are right, that is the first time I learned of transparent metals of any kind and anytime I think of transparent aluminum I think back to that scene, and of Scotty trying to talk to that old Apple computer.

[Mr March]

Shattering only depends upon the structure of the material. I thought that even something as strong a titanium will shatter under sufficient stress.

Perhaps the Valkyries do just use high-strength glass or high-impact plastic for the canopy, but the ECA would mean the canopy is a lot tougher. It's either that or a "super material", otherwise Hikaru would have been paste when he dove through that metal bridge and Isamu would have made a nice rug after his canopy-first drag along the canyon floor

Edited June 25, 2008 by Mr March

[d3v]

Since it seems that there are no internal launchers on the legs at least (unless they're there and someone could edit the scan to point out where they are) I'm wondering if the VF-25 is dependent on it's FAST Packs for most of its weaponry.

Edited June 25, 2008 by d3v

[Mr March]

Wouldn't be the first Valkyrie without them. The VF-1 had missiles only when mounted under the wings or with FAST Packs and the VF-11 Thunderbolt only had missiles once the Super Parts were equipped.